Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): FEMA composers have been around for, I mean, since the 11th century. We just don't know them. Speaker 1 (00:20): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Eckert Roy, music director of the Cincinnati Chamber Orchestra. So how have you been? Speaker 2 (00:46): Pretty good, actually. I mean, it was of course a very difficult time for the arts and for music, but fortunately the Chamber Orchestra has always been a busy, and we were one of the first organizations last year in the summer to perform publicly, which was of course a thrill. And I think we paved the way for many other organizations to follow our model and also to do things outdoors, to do things in small ensembles and just to go out in the community, get out of the concert hall, which is something that music organizations always wanted to do, but never actually did. Go out in the community, in the streets, in the squares and play music. That was a great thing. Speaker 1 (01:32): Yeah, I know. It seems like we kind of here, we always felt like a little blessed in some ways with this because theaters, music, places like that had a much harder time, whereas we're a building where we already don't want you to touch anything. But yeah, I was thinking you guys were already starting playing right around the same time we were opening, Speaker 2 (01:51): And we did play for your opening as well for the staircase, which is awesome. Speaker 1 (01:55): Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It was like they were the same weekend you were out on Art Climb playing the same time the first day we were open to the public. So yeah. That's cool. And I know that's always been philosophy is to kind of expand what a concert can be and should be. And so do you think you learned anything from this experience or were there things that came out of it that you might want to explore further? Speaker 2 (02:25): Well, I think we first reconfirmed what we already knew that we were very nimble, that as a small arts organization, we are extremely adaptable and that our collaborations, which are at the heart of our organizations, come in very handy if we wanted to do something interesting outdoors. So that's why we went to the zoo, that's why we did art climb, et cetera. So we have these different locations already and relationships already established where then we can just partner and do things outdoors. I think what we've also learned is that music and performance is a social affair. Of course, you can listen to music on your headphones and it's loads, loads of fun maybe. But the real enjoyment of music is the sharing has to do with sharing and has to do with that. You sit there together with a hundred or a thousand or how many people together listening to the same thing, having a different experience, but sharing that experience. And I think that the social aspect is super, super important and the chamber orchestra has always emphasized the family feel when I come here and compare it with other orchestras. It has very much a family feel that everybody, if it's the audience or on stage, feels they are part a group that is very dedicated to just this cause and this organization. And that's a very, very strong emotional connection. Speaker 1 (04:00): How did you get connected with the chamber orchestra? What's your story? Speaker 2 (04:04): My story is that I was actually already pretty busy with two orchestras and on two coasts, and then I saw the opening in Cincinnati and I listened to a recording of the chamber orchestra and I thought, well, these guys can play. I'm interested. And then when I read up about the organization, I was really intrigued by the very unique model of thematic concerts that are always in connection with other collaborators in town. So there's very strong artistic connections that go beyond music while orchestras usually just play music and you go in, you're listening to the music and you walk out and it's just about the music. But here, I think you can enhance the musical experience by adding other art forms. And I found that very, very, very intriguing. And so I applied for the position and as a conductor, we always talk about the chemistry that you might have or not with an orchestra, and I felt the chemistry with the orchestra pretty much right away, and that hasn't changed. And so I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. Speaker 1 (05:14): Yeah, I know we've done, when you talk about this kind of collaborations and way of working, we've come up with projects together when we had like Paris 1900 and coming up with a concert that connects with that, or I've helped choose artworks to show at a concert. So what are some other different ways other or arts organizations in the cities have partnered with you all? Speaker 2 (05:40): So we did a program together with Matt Cap puppets, and that was a piece by Stravinsky Ella Sweet, Speaker 2 (05:50): Which is a beautiful neoromantic piece. And so we partnered with Madcap puppets who then kind of told the story, which was interesting because Stravinsky is not necessarily music that kids listen to, but because of Madcap, we had a lot of younger audiences all of a sudden in there and they listened to Stravinsky, which is absolutely phenomenal when you are a 10 year old or an eight year old or whatever age. And we had several collaborations with dancers, and I'm always cautious when you add a visual element to music because what you see usually overrides what you hear. So you have to be very, very conscientious about this so that it enhances and it doesn't obstruct the view or the listening experience. And we had a collaboration with a Shakespeare company told or read from journals from composers, and that actually was more fascinating than I thought it would be because all of a sudden composers who are these people that you never really know? Speaker 2 (07:09): You just know the music. All of a sudden they become human and all their flaws become very obvious. And you think that person had the same problem that I have and expresses their emotions and their thoughts in music, and all of a sudden you have a totally different connection, both emotionally but also mentally to the music. And I think that worked really, really well. Then of course, we have this longstanding relationship with you where visual arts and music have a great relationship and symbiosis that they can do. And then we have also non-musical collaborations with the Cincinnati Observatory, which again, it is something that might not be obvious at first, but there's so much music that explores space and the unknown in general. Speaker 1 (08:12): Yeah, yeah. So tell me a little bit about this concert you have coming up in our own backyard, because we have women in music on Friday, August 20th, which is going to be in the season. Good pavilion just across the street from us. But tell me a little bit about this upcoming concert. Speaker 2 (08:30): So on August 20th at 8:00 PM we are at season Good, right across the street. And first of all, I have to say that I'm absolutely excited to be at Season Good because I feel that the outdoors experience to listen to music in nature or outdoors is quite different from the indoor experience Speaker 2 (08:54): Because all the influences, the surroundings, I think impact your experience. And I think it will be very different from when we are at S C P A where we have usually our concerts and we'll see how it shake out. Some people might like it better, some people might not, but for me, it's always threatening to be outdoors because there's a certain freedom about it being out in nature and not being cramped in your seed. We try to make this a very special concept. Also because of the theme, this concept is dedicated to women in music, and we are exploring the idea and the history a little bit of female performers and composers because female composers have been around since the 11th century. We just don't know them. They've always been there. And it's probably just like in visual artists as well. Women have been mists for the longest time, always inspired men, but of course they've been performers and painters and composers as well, and they have always been put on the back burner. Speaker 2 (10:14): And there are so many successful, wonderful artists, performers, and composers that have always been in the back room and consciously put that way. And it's amazing to me that even well-educated smart man, like the Mendel sons, like Moses, Mendel son and Abraham, that the idea of having a woman, their daughter or granddaughter being a composer was absolutely, absolutely not possible. That actually Fannie Mendelson, who was the sister of Felix Mendelson ity was told, you cannot, no, you cannot be a composer, not a professional composer. And that happened over the century, over and over again. Same thing with performers. There were very, very few that were basically allowed to be successful, Clara Schumann being one of them. But the idea of having a woman on stage, being exposed physically, but also then exposing emotions, emoting on states was something that was just absolutely not tolerable at the time. Speaker 2 (11:32): There's a lot of stories, I'm sure in visual arts as well, where you shake your head nowadays and said, why, why, why? And so there's a lot of holes in music history that we have to fill, and I think it's going to take years, even decades to discover all these hidden treasures composers that have not been published where we have to dig out the autographs somewhere. And that is starting right and right now. And the same thing is with performers rediscovering these great female performers that have always, always been there. We just don't know them. So this is kind of what this concert is about. And so we're highlighting three very different contemporary female composers from different backgrounds. One is Jesse Montgomery. She lives in New York City. She comes from a background of jazz and improvisation and spiritual, this melting pot idea of New York City and brings that into her music. Then we have Rena Ismail, she's an Indian American composer, and she combines the worlds of Hindustan music and western classical music, which can be not further apart because Hindustani music is all about improvisation and solo performance, and Western music is all about control and measured and orchestral and where can they meet. Speaker 2 (13:06): And then the third is Gabriela Smith. She's from Color of California. She is more like an environmentalist. She's a nature lover, and she actually, she calls it a hydrophone where she can record sounds underwater, and she's all Speaker 1 (13:27): Inspired Speaker 2 (13:28): By sounds of nature. And in her piece, she also brings two worlds together, and this is the world of Johan Baba and then her new nature inspired idea of music. And then we have also, of course, a female of performer, Caroline Golding, who is a Grammy nominated violist. She's absolutely phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal performer. And she's going to the Mozart. Speaker 1 (13:52): I listened to that piece, the Brandenburg Interstices. Do you know anything more about the way it's constructed? I mean, it's obviously borrowing elements from the Brandenburg Concerto, but I'm just kind curious if there's sort of a way it's put together or a sort of system to it. Speaker 2 (14:11): Well, I mean it is really odd that Bach is probably the most imitated composer ever, that so many people over decades, if not centuries, have tried to emulate aba. If it was the mingle singers, if it was Koski, if it was Sternberg, if it was whoever. I mean, because jazz, there's something in Inba music that connects to the D n A of all Western music. So everybody feels very, very connected to it and thought, I can use that. And also it is not an end point. It is vast. Music is a starting point for many musical thoughts, and I think that's where the inters, is that how you pronounce itis? Speaker 1 (15:04): I said inis, but I actually have no idea. I think Speaker 2 (15:07): It's inters. Speaker 1 (15:09): I like, go ahead. Yeah, you tell me. I actually was like, I don't think I've ever, that's what Speaker 3 (15:14): Google said. Speaker 1 (15:17): Sesis Speaker 2 (15:18): Is a place where things meet or where can pull together, and I think that's kind of where the 21st century meets the 17th, 18th century. So what you do is you take the D n A, you cut it in a little bit and put it elsewhere, and you turn it around, you turn it on its head, you do it backwards, you take it apart, you add different rhythms, you split up the notes, put 'em in different instruments. These are all tried and true musical methods, compositional methods that have been around for the longest time. But she gives it her own personal, personal spin because she has a very, she's very young. She's like 30 some, 31, maybe 32 years old. Speaker 1 (16:08): I think all of these composers are incredibly young, Speaker 2 (16:11): And they have, what I find interesting, and that's what is so promising about them is they're young, yet they have already found a very specific, recognizable voice. And some composers look for the longest time or artists look for the longest time for their style. And it seems to me that they already, they're very, very comfortable in their own musical skin. Speaker 1 (16:35): All of these composers are incredibly young. And that's because this is sort of when women composers are being recognized is very recently, it's not an accident. And it's the same thing with art where it's like, well, trying to find women artists before the 20th century is very, very difficult. And like you're saying, they existed, they were there, but history didn't remember them. And we have to, that's the job of a museum is to sort of accept that we create that history. We are responsible by choosing what we show and what we collect. And so that's kind of why we need to think about those things and change what we do now because it will have a ripple effect many, many years down the road. Speaker 2 (17:25): And that's why we chose young composers, young female composers, because we not only create history, we also create the future. Totally. And so the earlier we recognize and perform these composers, the more success that we'll have and it will just perpetuate itself so that we do have a more richer future. Speaker 1 (17:45): It's just like a museum. By buying a work of art by a young artist, we are changing their career and by performing it, you are also affecting their career. And so the idea of these institutions is just like, we just show what's great. I think sometimes people think we have a much more removed role in sort of presenting art and music, and it's like, no, we're actually right in the thick of it. Actually we are active participants in this. Well, I think that's a great transition into going and looking at some art and seeing what we see in it. And I've picked out a few pieces that I think will connect with some of the ideas we've been talking about. Well, let's go look at some art. Cool. Elizabeth Luis, we don't roll R's in French, but she's not Spanish. Actually, it's a good question. I never know exactly how much stink to put on those names because for instance, my instinct is to say, Elizabeth, even though it's not like Elizabeth, Elizabeth, Speaker 2 (19:06): Luis, Speaker 1 (19:08): Elizabeth, Luis, really leave that in, hanging out there, my high school French teacher told me that you just think about the N or those last letters, you don't say them, you just think about them, sort of let them be their imaginary. So anyway, yeah, I'll set this up actually for real. We are in gallery 2 0 7 looking at Elizabeth Louise Vier, LeBron's painting, young woman playing a liar. So I chose this painting for a couple of reasons. One, obviously this is a woman painter at a time when that is not common. So this painting is just sort of dated to the late 1780s. So we don't have an exact date of it, but also because timeline wise it does connect nicely. I know you're performing Mozart. Speaker 2 (20:04): Yes, we do. Correct. We do. Yeah. Mozart Viol concert number five. Speaker 1 (20:08): So this is a person who this artist, her lifetime overlaps with Mozart pretty much perfectly. I think she lived a little longer, but actually she was known for making paintings for Marie Antoinette who is Austrian originally like Mozart. And actually they met, I believe, at a young age. It's interesting, I think, to think about the music of that time and the art of that time and to sort of see what connections there are. So do you see anything when you think about the music you're going to be playing this painting? Speaker 2 (20:48): Well, what I'm seeing looking at this painting is a it woman as a performer, as an entertainer, which was of course a role that women played until basically radio came along, that they played the piano. That was just what a good young woman would do. And I think that's what she's doing here, playing the liar. And of course, I think the most obvious and stunning thing is the way she looks because it is this adoring look that she plays for someone. So she's not playing for herself, she's really playing for someone. And then I look at her fingers knowing from the modern harp that Harpes have steel fingers. That was of course a little bit different for the liar because the tension of the strings was not that strong, but it is somehow a very, very captivating pictures and it draws you in, Speaker 1 (21:59): Which Speaker 2 (22:00): Amazing, Speaker 1 (22:00): Her fingers do look very soft, Speaker 2 (22:02): Very, very soft. And actually it's only one hand that actually touches the string. The other hand holds the liar, which means there's only usually probably one maximum two nodes that you hear at the same time, and it is a six string instrument. So it's going to be mostly, I would expect that she would also sing, but that is very hard to see at this point. But I would assume that she only plays courts or just single notes at the liar, and then she would accompany her basically singing. Speaker 1 (22:37): Yeah, yeah. It is interesting, the kind of softness we were talking about is definitely something you see in a lot of this artist's work. A lot of her women do have a really sweet face. There's a lot of this kind of round face that this woman has. I don't think we know exactly who this is or if it's supposed to be a specific person or it's just sort of an ideal person. And her dress is also when you came in, we were looking at this painting next to, or thinking maybe this was going to be, now this is another big whopper of a name madam, but if you look at the way these two women are dressed, it's pretty different. This is definitely more, feels a little more opulent. And she's sort of wearing this, it's kind of hearkening back to Greece, an ancient Greek dress. And there's a certain sort of simplicity to that too. Speaker 2 (23:43): What I noticed is that in this painting, the lines are very blurred in many ways. There's not very clear cut lines, whereas if you listen to music of that period, morso all about really the aforementioned simplicity that you mentioned, but it's also very clean lines. So you basically really have just a baseline, an accomp figure, accompaniment figure, and a melody and that's it. These are the three elements that you have, and it's very, very clean cut where here between the hands and the background. And so it's all very flute and soft and I dunno, it's almost through a veil for me. It's very veiled. But I can tell your Greek connection there, Speaker 1 (24:39): This Speaker 2 (24:39): Ideal deal of it's almost statuesque in many ways. Speaker 1 (24:43): Well, I mean, it's interesting to think about it also in the kind of what's going on at the time too, making an image that feels maybe a little less opulent because what's coming in France at this time is revolution, and the people who look like this are about to lose their heads. So I don't know if that's really what's kind of influencing this sort of return to simplicity. I mean, Marie Antoinette actually has paintings of her where, I mean, she had a little play village where she would go and pretend to be a poor farmer. And I mean, it was just kind of the insanity of what the aristocracy of that time did. That wasn't unusual for her. It was like lots of people did it. So I mean, it could also just be more that this sort of weird romanticizing of a simpler life, even though the reality is those people were starving and the government wasn't helping them. Speaker 1 (25:45): So yeah, it's interesting actually, Vijay, LeBron, the artist, she ended up fleeing France because she was connected with Marie Antoinette. She was considered a counter-revolutionary. And it wasn't for years later until she was able to finally return to France when her name was taken off the list. She wasn't like an official court painter, but she was one of Marie Antoinette's favorite. So she did lots of portraits of her. But anyway, I just thought this was an interesting example of a woman artist at a time where there aren't a lot, I mean, there were others, but she was a part of the official Academy of Art in France until the revolution in which that was abolished. So after the revolution, women could no longer be a part of the academy. So it's kind of an interesting thing of the idea of progress. You think of this as like, well, it was a progressive thing to, but then it's like, well, maybe not in every single way. It is kind of good to remember that there are nuances to all of this, but there were other women who were a part of that academy, but very, very, very few. And her father was actually a painter as well. And is how she learned to paint. Well, any other thoughts about this one? Speaker 2 (27:08): No, I really like it. It's just looking around feel. The more I look at it, the more posed, it seems to me that it's like when I look at the peach in the next building, they just had to do something. What do you do in the painting? What do you do with your hands? What do you do with your posture? And it feels to me that this is a very idealized pose of, it's almost what this reminds me of is it's painted from a male perspective, Speaker 1 (27:47): But it's not exactly, Speaker 2 (27:49): But it's painted. It's like this as a man, this is what you want. You want a voluptuous woman gazing at you extremeingly while playing the liar, maybe singing and what's coming next. Speaker 1 (28:05): But what's interesting, you're saying gazing at you, but in fact, this painting actually doesn't look at you compared to our Madam Titone who does make direct eye contact with the viewer. She's actually looking off, she's looking off into space and not looking at you. So I think that that is actually a difference of where you're maybe still seeing it as that, but I don't necessarily see it that way because she's not making eye contact. And there is a ton of art. If we went over and looked at the Venus at her ettes by, it's another French painting, but she is making clear eye contact and it's a nude, and it has that kind of male gaze going on, whereas I don't necessarily see this here. I mean she's, it's really hard to say what is also seen as alluring at the time too. The standards of beauty and all of those things change so much that it's hard to know like, oh, I don't know. Was this alluring? Speaker 2 (29:04): Yeah, I mean, as a man, you don't necessarily rationalize things. You see a gaze and you think that's probably for me, Speaker 1 (29:10): Even though it's not looking at you at Speaker 2 (29:12): All, Speaker 1 (29:13): It's looking somewhere else. Speaker 2 (29:13): That could be me. That could be me. Speaker 1 (29:17): Alright, well let's move on to our next artwork. Our All right. So we are now in Gallery 1 23, and we are looking at a work by an artist named Karen Lamont, and it's called Seated With Impression of Drapery. And I got to say, we've got two guys here to talk about women artists. So I don't know if this is the best combination, but we do have our handlers here, Ann and Leanne. So keep us in line. We're not really bringing a female perspective at all to this conversation. But Speaker 2 (30:05): As I said before, behind every man stand, a very strong woman. Speaker 1 (30:10): And you have two of them here. We have two of them standing behind you, but Speaker 2 (30:13): They're both here for me. Okay, Speaker 1 (30:15): Yeah, that's true. They're not for me. They're both here for you. I don't get one. So I'm curious what your immediate impressions of this piece were when you saw it. When you came in. Speaker 2 (30:26): I was like, wow. Because usually you don't, the dress is part of the sculpture and here there is basically nobody is really just a dress. And I thought it was a really intriguing idea, but my very first thought artistically was, okay, this is a piece that was made in 2005, yet all the drapery, the way it falls and the way it's done, it reminds me of very much of the old paintings and that this d n A of the old artists is very much embedded in here. And that reminded me of music is that no matter how contemporary the music is, the D n A is still the same that we had 500 years ago. Speaker 1 (31:07): Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I think in not only paintings, the artist has directly said she's very influenced by the way drapery. You see in portraits, like we were looking at paintings and also Greek sculptures, if you see the way that the fabric clings to the body in those sculptures, it's a really similar thing. And here she's sort of focusing on where the only thing that is actually material is the fabric, but it's in glass too. So there's all these layers to it that are really strange. And I don't know if you can notice here, you can see through the dress to see the feet and the legs. Can you see those in there Speaker 1 (31:57): That are truly just hollow? So what's interesting is all of the places where the body would be is hollow space. And because it's glass, we can see it in there. Just while I was looking at it the other day, I noticed for the first time this, the model had their hands in their lap, and you can see the grooves of the fingers in this fabric here where the hand was supporting the fabric, and now it's leaving this impression where it is not. And it's so detailed, you can see almost like you feel like you can feel the difference in the texture of the skin in those spaces. So your connection you were making with music was a similar one that I was kind of interested in here too, was thinking about this in a similarity to the way we were talking about the composer who's taking Bach and kind of taking that structure, removing things, adding things, playing with it, that she's kind of doing a similar thing, looking at the history of art and the history of how we see women and their bodies in art. And then playing with that, taking away elements to focus on other things. Speaker 2 (33:15): I mean, the other thing that this reminds me of is of course the fairgrounds know where you have this thing where you stick your head Speaker 1 (33:22): Through. Speaker 2 (33:24): That just popped in my mind because I thought the most important feature actually of a human being that you judge right away is what does that face look like? And the face is of course missing and then it's all hollow, which then reminded me of there's so much like classical music that sounds at first listening alike. So I can probably play you three or four different of Mozart's contemporaries that at first listening sound just like Mozart. Speaker 1 (33:53): You Speaker 2 (33:53): Cannot tell, but this is just, but once you get to the substance, to the body which is missing here, the hollow, once you get to that, then you can see, okay, this is definitely not Mozart. This is what Mozart had. There's a certain substance to the music which Mr. Ler, for instance, who is a contemporary did not have, or Ms. Leche also. Speaker 1 (34:10): Yeah, when you're talking about the head being missing though, the thing that makes me think of too is when you go to a museum and you're looking at sort of old Greek sculptures and things where we are looking a lot at these figures where the head is missing or the arms are missing, or I'm thinking the Nike of Riss at the Louvre is this really famous sculpture that's like, I think it's missing its head. So it's like we have this weird thing of we are also kind of used to seeing these strange decapitated bodies in weird ways that we've idealized, Speaker 2 (34:46): But we also completing it in our head, I think. I mean, I do that our imagination is so strong that, I mean, I cannot live with just a one armed sculpture. So automatically you always imagine what would that look like? And here I always imagine all these different people that could be in that dress, and how would those people and the characteristics of these people change the dress? Because I think also the clothes look different on different people. And so I think that this dress, which seems like almost unchangeable, which of course is because it's glass, but how would it actually change or how would the impression of it change depending on what had you imagined on there? Speaker 1 (35:28): Yeah, totally. She's playing a game with us where we can't help but put the body back in. And I think that's the important part of the way that she is casting the body in there as a void and taking the time to do that. I think when the first pieces she made, the very first one she did, didn't have that hollow impression of the body in it anymore. It was just sort of the form without the body. But she then realized, I want that negative space in there, and how do I get that? And she went to these kind of crazy lengths to do it. So she casts a person, a figure, just nude in this case, a woman's seated, and she'll make a full body cast of them to then cast that in wax. And then she takes that wax, and then she uses the fabric and the drapery to do that. And I'm assuming she's stiffening it in some way. I don't totally understand every step of her process. But then she then is able to cut away the body, the wax, and leave just the fabric, which she can then turn into another mold to cast the glass. So it's this very multiple steps to get to this just to ensure that she has this negative space that's still so important to it. Speaker 2 (36:50): And I think we are also in need of completion. So when I go to Pompeii or so, and I look at or at Rome and I look at all these ruins or these partially intact buildings that always try to complete it in my head and imagine what it would look completed, but maybe that's just me. Of course you can appreciate the decay and the partiality of a certain sculpture Speaker 1 (37:21): Or a Speaker 2 (37:21): Building, but for me, I always try to have this thing where it has to be completed. Speaker 1 (37:28): Yeah, Speaker 2 (37:29): It has to be finished. Speaker 1 (37:31): Well, it's this thing too where that idea of the thing missing kind of brings about this, it makes the piece more abstract in a way too, where now it's about the drapery, it's about those forms and about the shapes and the way they are informed by the body, but just sort of left on their own. You have these strange corners and things that you might not see if the arm was there because it would sort of just naturally continue on. So it does create these interesting shapes that we might not notice without if the body was there still. So do you have a favorite woman artist? Can you think of any? Speaker 2 (38:12): Well, now I have several. You've got a couple that she from that Speaker 1 (38:14): We walked through. Speaker 2 (38:16): I have several. But what I noticed is that in my general database, in my head, it's all male artists. And it's also the case of course, for composers because that's what we were being taught. That's what we were being exposed to. And I think what you're trying to do, and what we are trying to do as chamber orchestra is to that information input so that people now it's like, yes, I have heard this person and this composer who are female, and I can build on this. And it made me curious to explore on myself more because there are hundreds, if not thousands of them, we just don't know them. And that's our responsibility as an organization, but also as an individual. Speaker 1 (38:54): Yeah, it's definitely something we need to try to work to correct. And again, we're also fighting with our own histories in some of these instances. It's like if nobody collected this work throughout the hundred years of the institution, you've got a lot of work to do to make up for it. So it's tricky. So, well, thank you so much for being my guest today, Eckert. Speaker 2 (39:19): Thank you Russell. Speaker 1 (39:26): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. The museum is currently open, but please visit our website for the most up-to-date information about operating hours and museum policies. Current special exhibitions are paintings, politics, and the Monuments Men, the Berlin Masterpieces in America, American Painting, the eighties Revisited and Future Retrieval Close Parallel. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and we also have an Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Efran Mu by Balala, and as always, please rate and review us to help others find the show. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.