Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): That's what makes good forests. It is precision comedy. Those doors slamming, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. Tumble Speaker 1 (00:08): Down the Speaker 2 (00:08): Stairs, Speaker 1 (00:08): Bottle gets tossed up here, someone grabs an ax needs to go over Speaker 2 (00:11): Here and yeah, it is amazing to watch. Speaker 1 (00:26): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Jeremy Dubin, artistic associate at Cincinnati Shakespeare Company. Speaker 3 (00:50): So you've been with the Shakespeare Theater for a very long time, right? Speaker 2 (00:54): Yeah, yeah. Very, very long time. Speaker 3 (00:56): So I was talking to my boss, say we were trying to figure out, she was asking me who was coming from the theater, and we were looking at pictures to orient myself, and I was like, oh yeah. I was like, I think he came to my high school when I was probably 18 or something. Speaker 2 (01:12): That's great. That doesn't make me feel old at all. Funky. No, Speaker 3 (01:14): I'm sorry. Yeah, that's not why I did that. But now I like it. Speaker 2 (01:21): It's true Speaker 3 (01:22): Because around here, frankly, I'm never the youngest person. So actually I'm usually explaining my references to people who are seven to 10 years younger than me, and I don't even realize it until we're talking like, oh yeah, I was kind of young, Ben. Speaker 2 (01:38): I don't remember that. Yeah. Yeah. I teach high school students and it hurts every time you drop a reference. Then they go, Speaker 1 (01:44): What? What's that? Speaker 3 (01:46): Oh no, Speaker 2 (01:48): I could Speaker 1 (01:48): Be a hip. You kids like Pearl Jam, come on, I'm cool. Speaker 3 (01:58): Yeah, yeah. But you've been there since the beginning, right? Speaker 2 (02:03): Not since the beginning. I came in in year six, I believe, in Speaker 1 (02:07): The Speaker 2 (02:07): Sixth season of the company. So they had actually just moved into the space that we're in. Now they're on Race Street, so they moved in the year before. Speaker 3 (02:17): Okay. So what year was that? Speaker 2 (02:18): That was 1999. Speaker 3 (02:20): Okay. So yeah, it probably was my senior year then, so that's probably true. I was like, I'm pretty sure I remember being there right then. So yeah, it probably would've, that's what I was thinking. I was like, I was thinking I was like a senior or so, yeah. Cool. Speaker 2 (02:33): Yeah, that was back in the day, and we didn't have a separate touring company then, so it was just us doing everything. So we were Speaker 1 (02:40): Out on Speaker 2 (02:41): The road and then we'd come back and set up a rehearsal and get in rehearsal and do a show at night, and then get in the van the next mornings. Speaker 1 (02:50): We were younger then it was Speaker 3 (02:52): Easier. So you have a separate touring company now that does all that? Speaker 2 (02:56): We do, and actually next year, for the first time, we've been trying to do this for a number of years now, we were able to actually completely separate out the touring company. So up until now, they've been sort of pulling triple duties where they're playing supporting roles on the main stage in addition to touring and all the workshops and everything they do, which is, can imagine it's a bit of a scheduling nightmare. All those things do align. So next year for the first time, they'll be their own entity. They will not be on the main stage, be doing some understudying, but they will be able to just do that. So we're hoping be able to send them out more, send 'em a little further out, Speaker 3 (03:28): And Speaker 2 (03:29): Do more educational things with them. Speaker 3 (03:31): Well, that's cool. And it really is, the theater still functions like an ensemble theater where everybody, I mean, that's there. I mean, there really isn't anyone else doing that in the city. Is there Speaker 2 (03:44): In the city? No, not really. And very few in the country. There's really maybe four or five professional resident ensemble companies left. It's kind of a disappearing model, which is very sad. Speaker 3 (03:56): Yeah. It's also funny, I think for an audience to go back and kind of see those same people over and over again. Speaker 2 (04:01): Absolutely. We develop a relationship with them. They come to know us, we get to know them. We're part of the community, which is nice. It's sometimes too an uncomfortable extension where it's like where people come up and it's like, yeah, I don't know you. They're treating you Speaker 3 (04:19): Totally. I mean, yeah, that's true. They probably feel closer to you. It's just one-sided relationship. Speaker 2 (04:28): We've been very intimate up on stage. I've shown you many things, Speaker 3 (04:32): But yeah, you can totally, I mean, I do that all the time with things like people you see over and over again in something. Or I listen to a lot of podcasts and feel like I know certain people from them, and then you realize like, oh, this is completely, and it's kind of bizarre. You, I know a lot about their life, even to this point, and you're like, oh, but would be, it's still this weird wall. You can't quite cross. It's Speaker 2 (04:56): Very straight. We're happy to get to know them after a while. But yeah, had that initial meeting, I do feel like you have an advantage on me. Speaker 3 (05:04): Yeah, right. Speaker 2 (05:06): But yeah, on that, it's definitely very nice for those in the ensemble, getting to work together over a long period of time. It just makes things so much easier. I was liking it too. It's like a good jazz combo. The longer you play together, the more you're able to just riff and go, okay, oh, yep, yep. Get where you're going. Okay, here. Now lemme do this. I know. I see where you're going with it, and it just makes things easier. And you don't have that kind of initial. A lot of times the first time a cast comes together, there's this peacocking, everyone feeling each other out, and I'm not sure I trust you and who are you? And so much of the rehearsal process ends up being that by the time you get to do the actual work, it's almost time to open. So probably kind of skip past lot. Speaker 3 (05:48): Yeah, that's nice. And just, I imagine it makes that kind even of picking works, I'm sure. Do you choose shows already with people in mind? In certain ways, Speaker 2 (05:59): Yeah. Very often. Sometimes it'll be, yep, this perfect show for this person, Speaker 3 (06:05): Kind of knowing where your strengths are, who you've got Speaker 2 (06:08): Other times, there are things that are happening in the world that it's like, I need to respond to what's happening in the world. And so that's why we're doing this show. And then hopefully you find the people to fit. Speaker 3 (06:17): Yeah. So what do you have coming up that you're excited about? Speaker 2 (06:25): So we just closed Richard ii, which was finally the completion of our five year journey. And then doing the entire history cycle chronologically, which we found out we were actually only the second company in the country ever to have done that. So that was cool. And the other company, I think no longer exists, so we're taking Speaker 3 (06:43): Whatever. You got it now. You taken the ground. Speaker 2 (06:46): Yeah, we won Shakespeare. Speaker 3 (06:49): And it is a competition. It Speaker 2 (06:50): Is. Oh, yes. Speaker 3 (06:51): People will tell you it's not. Speaker 2 (06:52): Yeah. But they're lying. Speaker 3 (06:53): It's brutal. Speaker 2 (06:55): People have died. So we just closed that, which is fun. And next we have coming up Raisin in the Sun, which is just tremendous. We're in rehearsals for that now, and that'll open in just a couple weeks. It's such a great show and is the first time we've ever done it. And again, these shows that unfortunately end up still being timely, it's a show we ever much about racial relations in the United States and the African-American experience, and that, again, right now is feeling particularly resonant. So yeah, it'll be a wonderful show. We have a guest director in for this one, Chris Edwards out of Nevada, and that's just a terrific cast in ensemble. Jeff Barnes has been with us for a couple of years now. Sylvester little JR. Burgess by has been an actress in the area for years. Tori Wiggins, she's done some stuff with us and other stuff all over the city and just this amazing, amazing group. And it's already, I have a small part, so I can just sit and watch and get the chills. Speaker 3 (08:00): Yeah. So how often do you work with guest directors? Speaker 2 (08:07): We usually have one or two, sometimes three a season. And we're really trying to expand that out too, and meet more and more people that we want to come in and work with. And of course, the longer we're around and our organization has been growing and that reputation has been growing, we've been having more interest from people coming in. And we're also, we're part of something called the Shakespeare Theater Association, which is an international organization. Actually, Shakespeare Theater is all over the world, and they have a conference every year, which we're actually hosting next year, which is a big, big get for us. Cincinnati, in our new theater, which we're hoping to God has done. I was just Speaker 3 (08:45): About to ask, I am assuming next year you're going to be in the new space? Yeah, Speaker 2 (08:49): We are. We're all assuming. So barring, we don't find out that we've accidentally Speaker 3 (08:54): Built, built, just have to get handout hard hats at the beginning. If it's not quite ready, Speaker 2 (08:57): Just Speaker 3 (08:57): Be like, this is a hard hat performance. Be Speaker 2 (08:58): Careful. Yeah. Speaker 3 (09:01): Look out for beams overhead or anything. A Speaker 2 (09:03): Lot of screaming over the jackhammers. But yeah, so that's met some guest directors through that who, and actually that's how we met Chris was through that. Speaker 3 (09:14): Cool. So the new theater is in O T R Speaker 2 (09:17): O T R, Speaker 3 (09:18): And it's pretty close to the school for Creative and performing arts right Speaker 2 (09:23): Across the street. Speaker 3 (09:23): Okay. That's why I was kind of doing a little bit of research ahead of time, and I didn't honestly know. I was like, oh, they're getting a new theater. That's so exciting. But the new space looks really beautiful. And what are you looking forward to most about having a new theater? Speaker 2 (09:42): Oh, so many things. We got some elbow room, which is the main thing, and literally in some cases, backstage. Yeah, Speaker 3 (09:51): It's a tight Speaker 2 (09:52): Space. It's really tight. And we have essentially no wing space back. This is where the current space was a converted movie theater. It was the movies. The movies Speaker 3 (09:59): Called, Speaker 2 (10:00): It was an art house. And then once that went out of business, we came in, moved in. And so those are two very different things, different mediums and different needs. So it's basically just a little shoebox. So there's really no wing space, there's virtually no overhead space. And even simple things like just trying to carry a bed on stage. It's like if you don't have wing space, trying to figure out how to make that corner around or Speaker 3 (10:23): Jimmy Speaker 2 (10:23): And through. So just things like that and really having to make it very creative, which the designers have, to their credit, have done amazing things in that space where it's like there's no way we should have been able to do. We did a great Sara WR there a couple of years ago, which has, it rains, there's a river, there's a truck. It's insane how we can't do this show. But we did the show and they found a way to make it work. But being able to have room to really build up, to have two story sets to have, Speaker 3 (10:54): We're going to Speaker 2 (10:55): Be show. We've always, we've been champing at the bit to do as noises off, and we're all Speaker 3 (11:01): The big Speaker 2 (11:01): Comedy nerds in the company, and we're like, oh, we need greatest ever written. And so it's part of our first season in the new space because you need the height Speaker 3 (11:10): In Speaker 2 (11:10): There to be a set that needs to rotates. And so things like that. So we're real excited about that. Speaker 3 (11:16): Yeah. Maybe just describe a little if people, I'm just sitting Googling. Yeah, yeah. I know the show, but you should tell people a little bit about, I think it is such a cool show. Speaker 2 (11:26): Yeah, it is. I think it's the greatest farce ever written, and it's a bit kind of meta play, but it's about a group of actors putting on a British farce. Speaker 3 (11:36): And Speaker 2 (11:36): Then you discover early on within the first scene, you're just watching the scene play out and the director calls out from the house, stop, hold on, and comes down and realize they're rehearsing this play. And so then it ends up being very much about the people putting on the play. And so the second act, the entire thing rotates, and you're backstage and there's all this drama that's developed between the characters. And so there's all these people trying to sabotage the other actors. All this going on backstage. So you're hearing the play that they're doing going on, but that's actually now backstage and onstage is backstage. You're watching everything that's happening there. There's just lots of stairs and doors and sardines Speaker 3 (12:17): When it really requires just kind of amazing timing, right. For that to coordinate the backstage front stage. What's happening between both that they're perfectly lined up and it's just kind of an incredible machine to watch happen Speaker 2 (12:32): That it Speaker 3 (12:32): Has to be so perfect. Speaker 2 (12:34): That's what makes good forests. It is precision Speaker 3 (12:36): Comedy. Speaker 2 (12:36): Those doors slamming, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. Tumble down the stairs, bottle gets tossed up here, someone grabs an axe needs to go over here and yeah, it is amazing to watch and done. Well, it's just in awe watching this thing. Speaker 3 (12:48): Yeah, that's awesome. You're selling me. I'm like, okay, I'm going to go. I'm going to Speaker 2 (12:53): Buy tickets. They're available now. Speaker 3 (12:55): Can you really buy tickets already? You Speaker 2 (12:57): Can really buy tickets already. They recently went on sale for our inaugural season in the new space. Speaker 3 (13:02): Nice. Nice. Anything else you're looking forward to about having a new theater that you Speaker 2 (13:08): Yeah, I mean, it's also just going to be nice to be over in that part of town, Speaker 3 (13:11): Which is Speaker 2 (13:11): Just so happening right now. We're right across from Washington Park. It's beautiful. We're right down from Music Hall, Memorial Hall. Speaker 3 (13:18): I would imagine as a theater for you guys, it would be nice to have dining and things around that would attract people to come and stay in that area and kind of be a part of that. So yeah, I could imagine that having a place where people can go and really make a night of it. Go have dinner, go see a show, then go to a bar afterwards is nice. That's Speaker 2 (13:38): A dream. Speaker 3 (13:39): Yeah. Not that, I mean, Speaker 2 (13:41): Go to a bar before as well. Speaker 3 (13:42): Yeah. You want to Speaker 2 (13:43): Losen a bar, see Peter the way it's meant to be seen drunk. That's right. Speaker 3 (13:51): Yeah. Speaker 2 (13:52): The more you drink, the better we are. Speaker 3 (13:57): It's funny. You just get funnier and clever, Speaker 2 (13:59): Funnier and more handsome. Speaker 3 (14:01): Wow. It just keeps, it's amazing how this works. What is this magic ocean you've given me? Speaker 2 (14:07): It's also, it's a thrust stage, which is going to be, we're very much in a proscenium right now, and so being surrounded by the audience on three sides is going to be cool. And we're going to kind of have to retrain ourselves. Speaker 3 (14:19): Yeah. Mean how you direct shows. Definitely have to figure that out. That's something that's going to be very different for you. But Speaker 2 (14:25): The upside of it is, so even though actually we're increasing our seating capacity, but with that thrust, the farthest, any seat will ever be from the stage is 20 feet. Speaker 3 (14:36): Oh, nice. There's Speaker 2 (14:36): No seat farther than 20 feet away from the stage. Speaker 3 (14:38): Yeah, that's really, that's very intimate still. So it's not like, yeah, you're still keeping that intimacy that you have in the current space, so that's great. Speaker 2 (14:47): Yeah. Speaker 3 (14:48): Well, I thought we could go look at some art. If you're game. I'm game. Okay. And I've been actually saving this piece for you because every time I keep thinking of good pieces to look at, this is always one. I'm like, oh, we could look at that and No, no, I have to wait until the Shakespeare theaters, he's been on reserve. So this is your piece. So we've had this big from the beginning. Blanche better not ruin it. Alright. Speaker 1 (15:14): I make no promises, Speaker 3 (15:15): But yeah, I'll try. Speaker 1 (15:26): So we are sitting in front of a painting called, now, see, here's the point where we call this painting about three different things. So I'm trying to remember what the actual label says. I'm pretty sure on the label it'll say Act four, scene five, I think. Oh my gosh. Can you read it from here? I can't actually read Speaker 4 (15:44): It. No. Ophelia and LAIs is what it says here. Speaker 1 (15:47): See, they changed it. Okay. See, sometimes people call it Ophelia. This is a new label, and I've seen it called Act four, scene five. I've seen it called Ophelia. And I remember there was a time where we called it one thing in our handbook and we called it another thing on the wall. And it's always like, I mean, that's the thing about painting titles is they're not quite as written in stone as a lot of people might think. That's Speaker 4 (16:12): Interesting. Speaker 1 (16:14): Sometimes we know this is what the artist wanted to call it, and sometimes we know that and we don't even care what the artist wanted to call it. Right. We are calling Speaker 4 (16:21): It Judy. Speaker 1 (16:22): Yeah, exactly. I mean, we have, for instance, the painting by Van Gogh that we call undergrowth with two figures in his writings and his letters, he only ever recalls it undergrowth. I don't know. So I mean, there are other Van Gogh paintings that are just called undergrowth. So at a certain point, somebody probably decided to call it undergrowth with two figures just to distinguish it from the others. Speaker 1 (16:49): So it might've been a practical decision. I don't really know. This is just me guessing. But yeah, it's like museums and owners and different things do change titles over time. And so there's a lot of popular titles that are not really what paintings are called. Whistler's Mother is not called Whistler's Mother. It's called Composition in Black and Gray number two, maybe, or I don't know. Bit sketchy. Yes. It's something like that. It's a very dry composition, blah, blah, blah. That does not refer to the subject matter at all. And of course, that's kind of the point, but that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about Whistler. We're going to go back in time. We're not talking about him. We're talking about Benjamin West. Speaker 4 (17:31): Benjamin West is the Painter Act Scene five, Speaker 1 (17:33): But we're not calling it that. We're calling it Ophelia later, apparently now, Speaker 4 (17:36): Which is nice. I like that. Speaker 1 (17:37): Nobody sent me the memo. But yeah, it's not just Ophelia Laity. Speaker 4 (17:42): We've got some other folks in there. Yeah, it looks like we've got Claudius and then Gertrude up there. I don't know who those other guys. Speaker 1 (17:49): Yeah, I think those are just folks that Benjamin West just kind of made up. Speaker 4 (17:53): Yeah. I mean, it is other people Speaker 1 (17:54): In the court. Speaker 4 (17:55): What is interesting, it is supposed to be, I think you forget it's supposed to be somewhat of a public scene. It's in the courtroom or in the throne room. But yeah, often the whole court would be there, the attendance, and due to budgetary restrictions at theaters, we don't get all that. Right. Speaker 1 (18:13): Exactly. That's what I was thinking. It's like, well, it is probably a practical thing that you normally wouldn't probably fill out a whole court just because it's like there's already a lot of people in Hamlet. Speaker 4 (18:23): That's right. Speaker 1 (18:23): You got a lot of roles to cast already, and we're not really looking to fill up the court with looky-loos, which is what we've got here to pay Speaker 4 (18:32): Those people. I mean, sometimes there was traditions that for a while, the people tried these casts of thousands make these Speaker 1 (18:38): Epic Speaker 4 (18:38): Things on stage. But yeah, it gets pricey. So yeah, it's big. Speaker 1 (18:46): Yeah, it is big. It's probably the first thing. I'm glad you said that. I do feel like people are afraid to, I am serious. People are afraid to talk about the obvious when they look at art. I think a lot of times people feel like they have to come up with something very smart, and sometimes I think the obvious things are actually very important. Speaker 4 (19:08): Yeah, Speaker 1 (19:09): It's big. And I always think of that is that these people are actually slightly probably larger than life size, but it does have the kind of effect of, especially if where we're sitting on the bench here, it does kind of put them at kind of stage level. Speaker 4 (19:25): That's true to Speaker 1 (19:26): Us. Speaker 4 (19:26): That's interesting. Speaker 1 (19:27): And by being life size from most places, you're looking at it, it has that kind of feeling of being about theater in that way of Speaker 4 (19:38): Watching Speaker 1 (19:39): A show. Speaker 4 (19:39): Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm looking over at ERUs here. Even it looks very theatrical. It looks like an actor. This is a painting of a scene, of a play rather than of the actual thing, if that makes sense. Speaker 1 (19:52): Yeah. It is kind of a weird thing to think about the actual thing, but there is this idea of the perfect idea of this thing that exists that is never will fully be realized in a way, but Speaker 4 (20:07): It's Speaker 1 (20:08): The real thing right here. Speaker 4 (20:11): Yeah. It's a very, almost a kind of melodramatic, stereotypical Shakespearean gesture up to the gods. Speaker 1 (20:19): Yeah. I think I talked about this actually when we were looking at another painting. So sorry if you've listened to me say this thing, but we were talking about another painting, this one right here, the Italian comedians and talking about how kind of dark the sky is behind them. And this one kind of has the same thing going on where if you imagine a real sky outside, if say you were to take a photograph of this moment, the sky would probably be much, much brighter, and these people would be almost silhouetted against it. But this almost has the effect of theater lighting of a backdrop that is not lit as well as the people up front to give natural focus. So it's an interesting other thing that's like maybe Theatery reference, maybe just like, Hey, this is how I want to paint this picture, and I know how to draw attention to certain things Speaker 4 (21:09): Probably. Right. It's dark and brooding. It's a dark scene, but it's art with an exclamation point, I think. Speaker 1 (21:20): Yeah. I mean, this is a painting that does draw a lot of people into it, and I think that's why I was so excited you said that it's big, Speaker 4 (21:26): Because Speaker 1 (21:26): I think really that's probably the number one reason a lot of people stop and look at Speaker 4 (21:30): It. Scope is everything has, Speaker 1 (21:32): I don't think, I mean, probably a lot of people figure it out, or some of them read the label, but I don't think most people are like, stop here. Because they're like, oh, this is a classic scene from Hamlet. I think they just saw, it's like, oh, this is a big painting and there's people in it. Then I think there's a lot of things, it's really fun to look at this painting with audiences who don't necessarily know this story. Speaker 4 (21:54): Oh, sure. Speaker 1 (21:55): And we do that a lot, especially, it's a fun one just to kind of talk about how stories are told Speaker 4 (22:01): And do people have theories on what's going on if they don't know the story? Speaker 1 (22:04): Yeah. I mean, I'll look at it with kids, and a lot of times we talk about the way, the emotion, the different emotions on people's faces that we have here, just because Ophelia is so noticeably different than the rest of the crowd. Speaker 4 (22:21): Yes. Well, she's going through a thing, Speaker 1 (22:24): Having a moment. Speaker 4 (22:25): Yeah. Speaker 1 (22:26): Been rough, having a fit rough Speaker 4 (22:27): Day for Ophelia, Speaker 1 (22:30): And you have Claudia and Gertrude who look kind of angry and guilty, and there's a lot of different things going on. I mean, nobody usually, if you ask a five-year-old to like, oh, what do you think is coming on? They don't usually come up with the actual plot of Hamlet as you might expect. Speaker 4 (22:50): Yeah. It's a bit dense Byzantine. Speaker 1 (22:54): Yeah. They usually assume that these two are a couple in Speaker 4 (22:59): Some way. So Speaker 1 (23:00): That's one of the things that usually is a little bit of a surprise. If somebody doesn't know the story, they don't quite assume they are brother and sister. Speaker 4 (23:07): Sure. I could see that Speaker 1 (23:08): Makes Speaker 4 (23:09): Sense. You Speaker 1 (23:09): Just kind of by maybe the touch and the closeness, you just kind of assume there's Right. Speaker 4 (23:14): And they have very different colorings. She's very blonde, he's very brunette. Speaker 1 (23:21): That's true. They don't have a lot of any sort of sibling similarities there. Speaker 4 (23:27): But I think it's cool that I'm really digging now looking at quite some Gertrude. Neither of them are willing to look at what's happening, which is really, really cool. Which is, I think exactly what happens when someone comes in. You have a crazy person come into the room, you don't want to make eye contact. Speaker 1 (23:44): Totally. It's like if you've ever been on a New York subway and a person could walk onto a New York subway, I think an elephant could walk onto a New York subway and everyone would just keep reading and looking down. Nobody don't engage 100% unfazed. They've seen it all. Yeah. And you definitely do not want to make eye contact. Speaker 4 (24:06): I say, yeah, I think Gertrude potentially looks a little bored. Oh, this again. So angsty Ophelia, and I keep just getting drawn to that guy in the middle though, with the, he Speaker 1 (24:22): Does get a lot of attention, a Speaker 4 (24:23): Green hat and a stick, and who is that guy? Speaker 1 (24:26): Yeah. He's just a little too well framed I think, in this painting to not be like anyone who matters. And he's got this kind of crazy Santa hat. Speaker 4 (24:34): Yeah. Speaker 1 (24:35): Yeah. I Speaker 4 (24:36): Feel like inevitably that would be the role I would be playing is that guy Speaker 1 (24:39): You'd, you'd be Santa Stick man. Speaker 4 (24:41): Santa Stick man. The immortal. Speaker 1 (24:45): I wonder if he's the guy who is ready to poke her out of the room, basically. Get out of here Speaker 4 (24:51): Crazy. He's the Royal Poker. Speaker 1 (24:52): Yeah, exactly. When a crazy person comes into the court, the Royal Poker comes and pokes them with a long stick to make sure they leave Speaker 4 (24:59): By master artisans. That's thick. I dunno. I guess it could be Horatio. He's in that scene, but I don't know. Yeah. It's such a silly hat. Speaker 1 (25:12): It is a silly, silly hat Speaker 4 (25:14): Then. Speaker 1 (25:14): But I do love these lady. I do like the kind of whispering soldiers over here and these two ladies. Speaker 4 (25:21): It brings back that idea of this being such a public scene, which is sometimes lost in the things Speaker 1 (25:26): That Speaker 4 (25:27): I think also sometimes gets lost in this, is the songs that she's singing are wildly inappropriate. They're very body songs, which sometimes gets missed. It's not necessarily evident if you don't know. And so this is this young lady singing about these things. So there's a level of scandal even beyond her just being crazy in Barefoot As is in here, coming in, going around, having lost it. But also it's this very talking about some very sexual things that may or may not give us a window into her relationship with Hamlet and what they might've been up to before. He told her to get to a nunnery Speaker 1 (26:07): And nunnery not being where nuns are either. Right? Speaker 4 (26:10): No, nunnery is, yeah. Speaker 1 (26:11): Oh, is it? Okay. Speaker 4 (26:12): I Speaker 1 (26:12): Thought we had a double meaning of a brothel or something too. Speaker 4 (26:16): Oh, yeah. Most things do Speaker 1 (26:18): In Shakespeare. Speaker 4 (26:20): You can always assume it's always at least a double meaning. Speaker 1 (26:23): Right, right. Speaker 4 (26:24): But yeah. Yes. And in that sense is saying to her A either go because you shouldn't breed. Because if you breed, you're only going to breed monsters. We're all terrible. So go to a nunnery where you won't breed, or women are all whores. So yeah, go to a Speaker 1 (26:39): What? A charmer. Speaker 4 (26:40): Yeah. He was a romantic old Billy wiggle sword. Geez. Speaker 1 (26:48): And I know the flowers have different connotations too. We get the flowers. She's dropping here and she's in the scene. I remember she's giving out different flowers to different people, and they kind of each have a, Speaker 4 (26:59): Yeah, here's Ru. That's her remembrance. I forget what each of them are for Speaker 1 (27:04): Ones, Speaker 4 (27:05): But each one represents something as flowers did. They had a particular characteristic that was associated with them. Right. Speaker 1 (27:10): So yeah, it seems like maybe at first glance like, oh, she's a crazy lady handing out flowers. But there's of course, a deeper meaning to each flower she's giving and why she's giving it to that particular person, too. Speaker 4 (27:24): A method in her madness, Speaker 1 (27:26): If you Speaker 4 (27:26): Will. Look at you. That's right. That's from Hamlet folks. Speaker 1 (27:30): Oh, is it? Speaker 4 (27:30): That is, yeah. Speaker 1 (27:31): That's one of those great expressions Shakespeare created that we just use all the time. Speaker 4 (27:36): So many. Yeah. It's an incredible into thin air. That was his, let's give the devil his do. Speaker 1 (27:42): Oh yeah. Speaker 4 (27:43): He also invented the word puke, which I always enjoy. What? Yeah. Speaker 1 (27:47): I never heard that one. That was good. So where does puke appear? Speaker 4 (27:50): That's in As You Like It? That's in all the world's a stage, the Seven Hs of Man, and he talks about the infant's and puking in the nurse's arms. Speaker 1 (28:03): Wow. Thank you Shakespeare. I know. Thank you so much. Speaker 4 (28:07): Mean he did other stuff too, but Speaker 1 (28:08): Yeah. But he gave us puke. Puke gave Speaker 4 (28:10): Us puke. That's what my students always enjoy hearing about. Speaker 1 (28:15): Yeah. Well, this painting originally was supposed to be for, they had this project that somebody decided they were going to make a gallery of Shakespeare paintings that depicted different scenes. Benjamin West did, at least two of them. I know he did. Also King Lear. And then I know Joshua Reynolds did a Portrait of Puck. Those are the only ones I think I've seen from it, because they pretty much never got the project off the ground. They got a few paintings and then it went belly up. Speaker 4 (28:53): There's a lot of plays. Speaker 1 (28:54): Yeah. The gallery never happened. The business plan was that they were going to make prints based on the paintings that they would sell. So you would buy a print for much cheaper and take that home. So there is also a print version of this painting that was produced that you can find out there. It's kind of interesting because it's a color print, but some of the colors are reversed from the picture. Mostly the reds and greens. And I don't exactly know why they did that other than maybe they just felt it worked better in that format. I'm not sure. I remember Claudia's Cape is red and the rest of his outfit is kind of green. And I want to say Laertes as well. I think he's maybe in green in it. Speaker 4 (29:47): Oh, interesting. Speaker 1 (29:48): Yeah, it's kind interesting. And a lot of times the people who worked on Benjamin West wouldn't have done the print either, so another artist would've come in and made a print based on his painting. Speaker 4 (29:59): That's interesting. In some ways, they have parallels what happens in Shakespeare all the time, where you get editors who will come in, oh, true. Change this word or change that word, or change this punctuation or that. Speaker 1 (30:11): Well, especially Hamlet is the most edited, right? Speaker 4 (30:14): Yeah. Well, sure mean you have the Folio, you have the Quarto, you have the Bad Tel. And then yes, once you get editors in there, you get those additions of the books where it's like, it's two lines of the actual play of dialogue and the rest is just footnotes Speaker 1 (30:30): On Speaker 4 (30:30): That page. Speaker 1 (30:31): Yeah. I mean it, it's so long. It's Speaker 4 (30:35): A long play. Speaker 1 (30:37): It's Speaker 4 (30:38): Quite long. Then you have people like Kenneth Bra, God love him to go, alright, I'm going to do it uncut on film. And you have a four and a half hour movie, Speaker 1 (30:50): Which Speaker 4 (30:51): Is a little much for me. Speaker 1 (30:53): Yeah, Speaker 4 (30:54): Yeah. It is a million hours. Shakespeare, his time was different. You were there for the afternoon. It was a whole day affair. You'd traveled to London, you'd walked or ridden your horse, so you were there for the day and you'd watch an act, and then you'd go out and have some meat pies, do some bear baiting, what have you, come back, watch another ax. It was whole. Yeah. Speaker 1 (31:13): You would feel let down if you got a quick 90 minute affair. Speaker 4 (31:17): Yeah. Say, oh my God, I got back on the donkey cart and going back, Speaker 1 (31:20): What was, this came all the way to London. Speaker 4 (31:22): Oh, man. So yeah, it's long. But yeah, that people feel they can go in and kind of change things up. Speaker 1 (31:32): Yeah, Speaker 4 (31:38): I'd get a print of that. Speaker 1 (31:39): You'd get a print. Speaker 4 (31:40): Sure. Why not? Speaker 1 (31:41): Well, you would've kept that gallery alive if there there'd only been more of you Speaker 4 (31:45): Now is the painter, was he British or American? Oh, Speaker 1 (31:50): You are asking such good questions. Oh, thank you. That you probably didn't even know were real good setups there. Speaker 4 (31:55): I did not. Speaker 1 (31:56): So interesting fact. He was an American who moved to England and became the court painter for King George. Speaker 4 (32:05): Oh, wow. Speaker 1 (32:06): During the American Revolution. Speaker 4 (32:08): Crazy King George. Speaker 1 (32:10): Yeah. So what a fun time to be an American. Right. And working for the King. Oh my Speaker 4 (32:14): God. Speaker 1 (32:15): Yeah. So it actually is one of those people that gets, you might see him in other museums, put in with British painters, and sometimes he gets put with American painters. And yeah, it's a little bit of a tricky thing because when somebody is, a lot of times we'll have artists who are born in other countries, but end up doing most of the work they're known for in America. We kind of lump them in with American art. And so he often in the reverse way, gets kind of lumped in with British art because he was living there, working there was a part of that world. So yeah, he made a lot ofs, a lot of paintings for the King and was famous for working at this scale Speaker 4 (32:57): As Speaker 1 (32:57): Well. So he did a lot of big paintings like this as well. Speaker 4 (33:01): So his other Shakespeare one is this size. Speaker 1 (33:03): You know what? I am not sure. I can't remember. I haven't seen it in person, except I want to say there was a version of it. Don't quote me on this, but I think in Detroit, that is the King Lear. But it could have been an oil study. In my memory. It was very small. So it might've been a study for a larger version, which may or may not have ever been finished. So sorry, I'm not up on my details on the other paintings. But yeah, I want to say I saw it there and make a note of this to cut out if I'm totally wrong, Speaker 4 (33:45): Hide your shame. I Speaker 1 (33:46): Know. I'll have to do the research later. Just like, I don't want to just sound like a total idiot if I'm just like, everyone go to Detroit Speaker 5 (33:55): Right Speaker 1 (33:56): Now. Go look for this painting. Speaker 4 (33:57): And then, well, I listen to this podcast and based on that, Speaker 1 (34:00): This trip. Hi, I'm here. Welcome to Detroit, sir. It's a beautiful museum. If you haven't been, actually, I'll say that. It's a really great collection. So right Speaker 4 (34:08): On. Speaker 1 (34:09): They have some really amazing, plenty of amazing work. So there's more to see, even if I let you down, even if you're Detroit planned trip to go see this painting that may or may not be there. Speaker 4 (34:21): They got some other stuff. Speaker 1 (34:24): They got some other stuff Speaker 4 (34:25): Here. Speaker 1 (34:26): It's a big museum. Yeah. But yeah, that's kind of the fun facts about Benjamin West. There's more, but that's the good stuff. The other fun fact about this painting is this is one of the first paintings the museum owned. Speaker 4 (34:43): Oh, really? Yeah. How did that come to be? Speaker 1 (34:47): Actually, we'll go look over here. We're going to stand up. We're going to move our whole operation a little bit closer. I want to see, I remember it was given to us by Joseph Longworth. So another Cincinnati big name here in the city. The Longworth family gave it to us. It tells us here on the label, one of the stories I was just about to say, and I like how we word this oral tradition, maintains that the painting was brought down the Ohio River on a flat boat, which is a nice Speaker 4 (35:22): Liability freak. Right. Speaker 1 (35:24): The oral tradition Speaker 4 (35:25): Happened. Speaker 1 (35:26): Legend has it Speaker 4 (35:28): Days of your A Tale was told. Speaker 1 (35:31): Yeah, I know. It's just kind of one of those, I was about to say it, and I'm kind of glad that they put it, I don't know how true this is. There's lots of stories about art that you kind of go like, this is what everyone says. Speaker 4 (35:43): Same with Shakespeare. We don't know Speaker 1 (35:44): A lot of stories about Speaker 4 (35:45): Shakespeare. Speaker 1 (35:46): We're guessing it's fun to imagine it on a big barge, basically going down the river, but Speaker 4 (35:53): Exactly. Speaker 1 (35:53): This could be your little museum 1 0 1 lesson here. So this is an accession number, and what the accession number does is if you look at the first part of the number before the period, that is the year the museum acquired the artwork, and then the number after the period is the order. So that was the 230th piece we acquired in 1882. And so what's interesting is that this was, so we acquired this in 1882. The museum was founded in 1881, and the building was built in 1886. Speaker 4 (36:30): Just kept it outside until then. Speaker 1 (36:31): Yeah, just actually, it was probably at Music Hall. Speaker 4 (36:34): Oh, sure. Speaker 1 (36:35): So before we opened, a lot of the artwork was exhibited at Music Hall, Speaker 1 (36:40): Which was built a few years before. So yeah, I don't know for, again, this is me just assuming, but that's where I'm assuming it was since it was such a major part of the collection. And if you look at old pictures of the museum, you'll always see it. They had it in the what we now call the Great Hall, which was a big chunk of the museum then. So they used it for actually showing a lot of artwork, but it would be basically dangling over one of those balconies. They hung, they had a different way of hanging things in the late 19th century. It Speaker 4 (37:12): Was a different time. Speaker 1 (37:13): It really was. We have a very different sensibility about how art should be hung. So we wouldn't do that today probably. Speaker 4 (37:21): Yeah. I'm also, this is cool that before Nicholas Longworth, it was Robert Fulton owned it, the inventor, which is cool. Speaker 1 (37:29): Well, did you have anything else you wanted to, any other last thoughts about Ophelia and La teeth here? Speaker 4 (37:36): Yeah, no, it's lovely. The other thing that I do is seeing, we have the flowers in her hair and her hand, but then sort of the embroidered flowers there along the gown and then flowers down on the floor. It's just sort of this lovely cascade. Speaker 1 (37:48): Yeah. One thing that just reminded me, I forgot to mention, is, so a few years ago I did a talk about this painting, and I actually had your teen group, the Groundlings, help me with it. And so they came and actually performed it for, so it was a small group, and I actually didn't tell the group we were going to do it, so that we just kind of surprised them. And in the middle of it, we just had the scene happen while they thought they were just going to a gallery talk. But it was really interesting because I basically was going through the play and trying to figure out when does this moment happen? And it was really hard because you kind of realize it doesn't happen. It's a Speaker 4 (38:35): Little bit of an amalgam of Speaker 1 (38:37): Yeah, yeah. And you kind realize that's like a freedom that the artist gets that's a little different, that he's trying to capture the best of essentially of all of the different things that are kind of happening in the scene over time. And he's got to put it into one scene and in one specific moment. And I remember trying to kind of set this moment up, and it was Speaker 4 (38:57): Really Speaker 1 (38:58): Hard because it just doesn't want to be there. It just doesn't want to. And I still forced it in there Speaker 4 (39:03): Because sometimes, yeah, sometimes you got to shoe horn things Speaker 1 (39:05): In, because I was like, it's going to be cool. We're Speaker 4 (39:07): Standing in Speaker 1 (39:08): Front of it. We got to make this happen. Come odd people. Come on. So I tried Modern Darnest and we did it, but it was a little clunky. I felt if I want to critique my own amateur directing, Speaker 4 (39:20): Well better next time. Speaker 1 (39:24): That was the moment that I had to have happen. Yeah. Speaker 4 (39:28): Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Speaker 1 (39:30): Well, thank you for joining me today, Jeremy. Speaker 4 (39:32): That was an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me. Sure. Speaker 1 (39:40): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the Art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are dressed to kill Japanese arms and armor, transcending reality, the woodcuts of Kosaka Gaje, and the poetry of place, William Cliff, Linda Connor, and Michael Kenna. A program you might be interested in is fandom, the Golden Girls, on Saturday, March 25th. Take a break from the cheesecake, throw on your favorite Oo, and head to the museum for a gallery talk filled with lots of snarky comments and life lessons. So I was correct about the Benjamin West painting in Detroit that I mentioned, and I will include links to it as well as the larger version found at the Museum of Fine Arts Boston. In the show notes For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and even Snapchat. Our theme song is Ro, musical by Baal. And as always, be sure to rate and review us on iTunes, but only if you're giving us five stars. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.