Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace Speaker 2 (00:02): Ballet, we have half naked Super fit people right in front of you. And people still don't want to come. There's some disconnect between what they're doing and who we are. Speaker 1 (00:24): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. Speaker 2 (00:27): This is your Speaker 1 (00:28): Host Russell Speaker 2 (00:29): Iig. Speaker 1 (00:30): Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Julie Sunderland Speaker 2 (00:36): From the Speaker 1 (00:36): Cincinnati Ballet. Speaker 2 (00:48): I'm a huge podcast person. Are you? Oh my gosh, I'm a little addicted to a lot of them. Speaker 3 (00:52): What are you listening to? What are your Speaker 2 (00:53): Favorites? Well, I was really into all the N P R and Slate pop culture stuff for the elections. But other than that, my favorite murder, all the stuff about, I've Speaker 3 (01:02): Never listened to that. What's that? Speaker 2 (01:03): It's two standups and they just talk about true crime. I just a recent one for me. Speaker 3 (01:08): Oh, that sounds amazing. Speaker 2 (01:10): Two Dope Queens. Speaker 3 (01:11): I've listened to that one. That was great. Speaker 2 (01:12): Love Two Dope Queens. I love Watch What Crap. Which is all about garbage television from Bravo mean. I listen to everything. Speaker 3 (01:21): Wait, what was that one called? Speaker 2 (01:21): It's called Watch What Crap. Instead of Watch Speaker 3 (01:24): What Happens. Happens. Gotcha. Crappin. Yeah, Speaker 2 (01:26): So Speaker 3 (01:26): It's Speaker 2 (01:26): Two guys who have been in, they were recaps and things like that. Speaker 3 (01:29): Oh, okay. That sounds so Speaker 2 (01:32): Good. Do you watch terrible television? Bravo. Speaker 3 (01:36): I don't. I don't have cable, but don't think that means I'm a high-minded intellectual. You are because actually one of my favorite podcasts is called Rose Buddies. Speaker 2 (01:45): What's that? Speaker 3 (01:46): And it is a bachelor slash bachelorette podcast that is all about the Bachelor franchise and family of products. Speaker 2 (01:54): Did you to the Rose Fricks podcast, which was about the gay Bachelor on logo Speaker 3 (01:59): That they just did Binding Prince Charming? Speaker 2 (02:02): Yes. There are two different podcasts about that Bitch Fe and Don't Mess With Me on Garbage tv. It's keeping me sane. Oh, Gilmore guys, fantastic. Speaker 3 (02:12): Yeah, I've seen that one. Speaker 2 (02:13): Here are all my dudes. This American Life, bill Maher. Speaker 3 (02:15): I love Speaker 2 (02:15): Them all. Rose, who Speaker 3 (02:18): I love to, I do dip into some just like dip my toes in the waters just to find stuff that like, Ooh, this sounds fun. There was one. And then I tell people who I think will actually really appreciate it more. I found one recently that was, I think it's called the Babysitters Club Club, and it's like these two guys who are reading the every Babysitters Club book back to back. And one of them has already read all of them as a kid. He said he was, I think spending a vacation with his cousin's family and he didn't really like them. And so his female cousin had all these babysitters clubs books. So he is just like, okay, so I'll read these. So it's like these two who are reading these books as if they're like Tolstoy or something. So they're really getting into the nitty gritty on the Babysitter's Club. This is Julie Sunderland from the Cincinnati Ballet. I have a general idea of what you do at the ballet, but I wouldn't even begin to guess what your actual title is. Speaker 2 (03:19): Okay. Director of Education and Outreach. Speaker 3 (03:21): That's pretty straightforward. Speaker 2 (03:22): Yes. Speaker 3 (03:22): Okay. And that's not a real, okay. That's a lot easier than our titles, I feel like, which are sometimes Speaker 2 (03:27): I completely agree. I dunno what you people do. Curator of who Knows What and Community Walk, walk. I have no Speaker 3 (03:32): Idea. Yeah, I have to always, I tell people what I do and then I see them just kind going, aha, Speaker 2 (03:39): What is your title? Speaker 3 (03:41): Assistant? I see you hear that Pause. Speaker 2 (03:44): I don't even Speaker 3 (03:46): Don't even know. Assistant director of interpretive programming. Not a clue. Speaker 2 (03:52): Helping people to interpret art in some way. Speaker 3 (03:53): Yeah, exactly. So I assume you educate people about the ballet. Speaker 2 (04:00): Yes. Speaker 3 (04:00): And you teach too, right? I Speaker 2 (04:03): Do. I don't teach classical ballet very much. I'm not a classically ballet, classically trained ballerina, Speaker 3 (04:09): But Speaker 2 (04:09): I am a person who likes to communicate and connect through dance period. I did jazz and hip hop and African, I went to S C P A in the fourth grade and in ballet class they told me I danced like hippopotamus. So I found another route, Speaker 3 (04:21): But Speaker 2 (04:21): I didn't sound like I'm dancing. Speaker 3 (04:23): Good to hear it. To Mr. Speaker 2 (04:24): Shevalier, wherever you are. I'm now happily working in a ballet company. Speaker 3 (04:27): Nice nurturing environment. Speaker 2 (04:28): Very ballet is known for that. So there's a couple of segments to my job. Part of it is taking typically the second company out into the community. Speaker 3 (04:36): Okay. Speaker 2 (04:36): So senior centers, schools, airport, fountain Square, Washington Park, anywhere connecting with people through dance. Speaker 3 (04:42): Cool. Speaker 2 (04:43): Mostly through performance. Speaker 3 (04:45): And so you came to it really not specifically through ballet then? Speaker 2 (04:50): Not at all. Zero. I liked dance period. And so do you want to hear? Speaker 3 (04:56): Yeah, sure. Speaker 2 (04:56): Just whatever. So I was a corporate trainer in restaurants and I liked it for a really long time. And then I started to get depressed and I wanted a new career and I started taking a class at the ballet called Dance Fix Now. So it's this awesome high energy dance workout and I loved it. It was making me really happy. So I decided to go volunteer teaching, get my teaching skills back up. I used to teach a hundred years ago, so I started volunteering anywhere that would take me. Incarcerated teens, women in rehab, facilities. Facilities, women in jail. Speaker 3 (05:26): Anybody Speaker 2 (05:26): Who would dance with me, I would dance with them. Oh, Speaker 3 (05:28): That's awesome. Speaker 2 (05:28): And it was so heart filling and amazing that I stopped training out of town and I stayed here. And then the woman, Heather Britt, who had my job at the ballet as the education manager said, what you're doing for fun is what I do for a living. You should come and try and get my job leaving. I'm going to N K U. Speaker 3 (05:45): And I said, Speaker 2 (05:46): They'll never give it to me. And I met with Victoria Morgan and Heather said, don't say anything about Dance Fix. Tell her you like ballet and blah, blah, blah. So I went in and I said, hi Victoria, I'm Julie. And she said, I know you from Dance Fix. She's like, I love your energy. I want to work with you. Speaker 3 (06:01): So I would imagine go into places where people are not used to dancing. Speaker 2 (06:06): Yes. Speaker 3 (06:07): And how is that, what do you find those experiences are like and what do people get out of that experience when you sort of try to get them dancing and what are the challenges I guess too? Speaker 2 (06:17): Everyone's first reaction is embarrassment. No one wants to dance in front of other people. So I always let them know that I'll embarrass myself more than they will. Speaker 3 (06:25): My Speaker 2 (06:25): Job is to be embarrassing and only I can see you. Speaker 3 (06:27): So Speaker 2 (06:28): The court clinic on Sycamore, I used to go there a lot and it's an alternative to jail. You can go there and stay all day and take classes, but you have to participate. Speaker 3 (06:37): And Speaker 2 (06:37): Lots of people are heavily medicated, so not everybody wants to stand up, much less participate with you. But I find that once I just start the less talking and the more moving. If the music is right and the vibe you bring is good, people are joining in Speaker 3 (06:51): And Speaker 2 (06:51): The next thing you know it's, oh, you know what we should do next time, let's do this. And people are really bought in. The other thing I like to do is everybody wants to show you what they do best. So let's learn each other's names by showing me the move that shows me what Russell is. So Julie, mine would have a lot of attitude, a little head cock, Julie, and then you do it, the next person does it. Then we learn everyone's names and we put those together into a dance. So you're already bought in. Speaker 3 (07:15): So Speaker 2 (07:15): I'm all about experiential, getting everybody involved being a part of it. Speaker 3 (07:19): Yeah, that sounds great. I mean, I can imagine it's always hard to get people to talk about art Speaker 3 (07:27): In a certain way. So I'm imagining there's some similar challenges there of just people feeling like, oh, this isn't my area of expertise. And being a little nervous. I remember we did something here a while ago where we had a game night. This was three years ago, and we thought it would be fun to play Pictionary. And so we set up this easel in the middle of the Great Hall and we're like, Hey everyone, we're going to play Pictionary. And you realize that people are real hesitant to draw in the middle of an art museum Speaker 2 (07:59): Would be one of them, Speaker 3 (08:00): Especially in such a public area. It's so intimidating. And so I think we had nobody participated except me. I was just trying to get people started. I'm such a show off. I'm like, yeah, I'll draw. I love draw. And then it was just me. It was just drawing for other employees. Speaker 2 (08:18): It sounds like you won, which is really what's Speaker 3 (08:20): Important. The important thing is winning. Speaker 2 (08:22): Yes. My favorite thing is to take the dancers into school. So we run this other program called Cincy Dance. It's for 2003rd graders. And so to get them ready to be a part of this program, I try and bring the dancers Speaker 3 (08:34): And Speaker 2 (08:34): I ask the boys, of course, who here likes ballet? And no hands go up. Who here likes basketball? I do. What's it called? Basketball. When you go all the way around before you put it in, it's a 360. I'm like, well, that's great. We do that in ballet only. We call it a tour, and I'm going to have Derek show you a tour, but Derek doesn't do a single tour. He does a double. Speaker 3 (08:52): So Speaker 2 (08:53): I'm like, how many times did he go around? I'm like, twice, that's a seven 20. Which they would do in basketball if they could, but they can't do it again. Derek, show 'em what you're made of. And then I say, I only want strong athletic boys to come down and try a single tour. You can't even try a double tour. Speaker 3 (09:07): And Speaker 2 (09:07): Of course, they're all out of my way. I want to go, me, me, me. And they all try it and most of them fall, but they can see, once again, you get that experiential moment where it wasn't just watching some guy in tights do something. Speaker 3 (09:18): You're Speaker 2 (09:18): Like, wow, that's harder than what basketball players do. That's amazing. Speaker 3 (09:23): Yeah, that's interesting that those barriers that keep people from getting into something. Even I was thinking about the times I've gone to the ballet and one of the things I always dislike is that the clapping that happens in the middle of dances, because I always feel like, I don't know what they just did. That was so awesome. I'm always sort of sitting there and then you're just like, you see somebody who's like, and then you, oh, okay, I better clap too. I want, so there's this weird social thing and I'm always like, can Speaker 2 (09:53): I just watch? Speaker 3 (09:54): I don't want to have to participate. Just let me watch this thing and not feel like I have to know, have studied this. I guess. I'm sure it's, it all looks hard to me. Speaker 2 (10:06): Right, exactly. I'm with you. Yes. And it's the same thing with art though. You come through a museum and you see someone standing there really focusing on a piece of art that means nothing that I don't get at all. And you just think, what's wrong with me that I don't get? Speaker 3 (10:18): Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 2 (10:18): Why this toilet on the wall is so important. I know it is, but I don't know why. Speaker 3 (10:22): And I think we do the same kind of thing where I've done this many times where I'm just throwing out a word over and over again while talking about a work of art. And I've had the very, almost at the end of a tour, somebody will raise their hand and they're like, what's lithography? And you go, oh yeah, everyone doesn't know this stuff. You realize things that we say when you're in an industry, there's all that jargon and you forget which words are just real jargony and it's easy to get inside your own head and forget that. So it's good to have those ways of connecting with an audience. Speaker 2 (11:04): Well, I think that's part of what makes me kind of good at my job is that I didn't grow up in this world, so I'm always coming at it from, okay, great. That was a great story about Balanchine. Does anybody know what Balanchine did? He's a choreographer. Do you know what a choreographer is? No. Great. Let's start there. The story is ska would, she was this amazing tutu designer, and she would make a costume secret for a year and then take it to Balanchine and say, make me a ballet. But if you don't know who George Balanchine is, you don't care and you don't know that he's the choreographer who made the steps. Speaker 3 (11:33): So Speaker 2 (11:34): We had a tour right before we came here, and I was like, does anybody know? And they're like, no, no. Great. Speaker 3 (11:38): So what do you do tours too? Speaker 2 (11:40): We do. Would you Behind the scenes tours at the ballet, which are awesome. They're amazing. You do 30 minutes around the building, which is mostly in wardrobe, and you get to see a quarter of a million dollars worth of costumes. Diana, who's been the costume designer there for 44 years, one of very few artisans still around, and then you go for 30 minutes of company rehearsal. Cool. Speaker 3 (11:57): And Speaker 2 (11:58): It's $2 and 50 cents per person. Wow. It's ridiculous. But it's only I'm going to go Speaker 3 (12:03): Right now, Speaker 2 (12:05): It's only you Speaker 3 (12:05): Go buy my tickets. Speaker 2 (12:07): You could buy 'em through me. But that's a great, and I do lots of afterschool kids and mentoring programs and we have really good relationships with some schools. And Speaker 3 (12:16): Every Speaker 2 (12:16): Year the girls come in, what is this? And by the end, they're like, I want to dance. I'm like, yeah, I thought you might hear some information. Speaker 3 (12:24): Well, and I was just thinking about stuff, experiences I've had at the ballet too. There's always the very classical sense of what you expect, but I feel like a lot of times when I've gone, there's been kind of, they try to mix it up where there's going to be something a little more contemporary. And usually that's what I respond to the most and that's what I'm into the most personally. So I've always appreciated that. I think I feel like they create a pretty well-rounded evening for people. Even I think the last show I went to was Rite of Spring, which has been a while. That's awesome Speaker 2 (12:58): Though. Adam Hogan's Rite of Spring. Oh, amazing. Dark twisted, fantastic. It's Speaker 3 (13:03): Really like Guantanamo Bay kind of vibe, right? Speaker 2 (13:07): Yes. Speaker 3 (13:07): I mean, it was Speaker 2 (13:08): Water dripping in the cells. Speaker 3 (13:11): I mean, that's sort of that dingy. I know. That's just where my mind went. And I feel like the colors was all very kind of drab military look. Yeah. I mean that was really great. But then I feel like it was before that was Speaker 2 (13:25): Theme and Variations, which is a balancing Speaker 3 (13:28): Piece. So it was a little something for everyone it felt like. And I remember going, this was years ago, I saw I think Beethoven seventh and before that was, they did this piece that was to this Kronos Quartet album of Mexican folk music. And it was the best thing I've ever, I remember it so vividly. It was so amazing. And it was even seemed sort of gutsy even to go to the ballet and see something, to recorded music too. It was like, oh, do they do that a lot or, Speaker 2 (14:06): Yeah, so the full lengths, like a traditional story ballet, like the Nutcracker Sleeping Beauty, we're going to use the symphony. But I think the shows that you would love are what we call mixed reps. Speaker 3 (14:15): So Speaker 2 (14:15): We have new works, director's choice, bold Moves this year, and some of that will be to recorded music. Speaker 3 (14:20): New Speaker 2 (14:20): Works is awesome. It's a really good little baby step into the ballet because it's in a more intimate space. Speaker 3 (14:26): I've heard it's very popular people. Speaker 2 (14:28): It's awesome. It used to be at our ballet center and how it's too big. It's at the smaller theater at the, but it's so much more intimate and it's people on the rise. And Victoria Morgan, our executive director, and c e o, artistic director, all those words, she has been really focused on raising up female choreographers because there's none of them in all the major ballet companies. There are seven artistic directors. And of the 14 pieces that were choreographed by women last year, they were all done. Five of them were done at the ballet. Speaker 3 (14:58): Wow. Speaker 2 (14:59): So she's great about herself and bringing other female choreographers in. Newark has a lot of female choreographers. Speaker 3 (15:05): Yeah. So I was going to mention, of course you have the Nutcracker coming up, but does it even really need help? Speaker 2 (15:11): It, but we're excited this year because we're going to the Kennedy Center, which is a huge deal for us. Speaker 3 (15:17): Every Speaker 2 (15:17): Year they pick a company to present, and for the first time ever it's us. So we're super excited. Speaker 3 (15:22): Oh wow. Speaker 2 (15:23): Yeah, the Nutcracker sells itself, but it is super early this year. It's usually we go through Christmas and we're going to be done before Christmas. So if you're thinking of waiting, you shouldn't wait. You should come now. We do tell you about one other thing that's important to Speaker 3 (15:35): Me, if that's okay. Yeah, Speaker 2 (15:36): Absolutely. We have a program called Ballet Moves that we started four years ago. It's for children with Down syndrome. And then we've grown into children with cerebral palsy this year. And in the Nutcracker this year for the first time, one of our dancers Speaker 3 (15:47): From Speaker 2 (15:47): The Valley Moves class is going to be a party boy in the Nutcracker. Speaker 3 (15:50): Oh, great. So Speaker 2 (15:51): I'm real excited about that. Speaker 3 (15:52): Yeah, that's really cool. Speaker 2 (15:54): That's an awesome stuff right there. Speaker 3 (15:56): Yeah. Well, are you ready to go look at art? Speaker 2 (15:58): Yes. Totally can't wait. Please make it something abstract and unusual. Speaker 3 (16:12): Okay, so we might have a little more noise than we anticipated today, but we are looking at two bronzes. I shouldn't say I'm spoiling this, I'm saying too much already. I was going to make you describe what we're looking at. Speaker 2 (16:28): Two statues of dancers. Speaker 3 (16:31): Two statues of dancers, two Speaker 2 (16:32): Small statues of dancers. Speaker 3 (16:34): One is about a foot tall, one is foot and a half, maybe. I don't know. Speaker 2 (16:40): Sounds good. Speaker 3 (16:42): Not a measuring, Speaker 2 (16:43): I'm not a spatial relationship person. No one is this big and the other one's a little bit less. Speaker 3 (16:49): Not this big. Okay. Alright. Speaker 2 (16:51): You can tell that in podcast land. Speaker 3 (16:53): Okay. So what did you notice about them right away? I mean, we haven't really, we just said little people we haven't really talked about. Well, Speaker 2 (17:01): They're dancers. Speaker 3 (17:02): They are dancers. Speaker 2 (17:03): One is holding a ballet position. Speaker 3 (17:05): Which one, Speaker 2 (17:07): Which position or which dancer? The one on the left has her arms in fourth and her leg out front. Nelo paid out to the front. Speaker 3 (17:14): See, I wouldn't have known one was, well, I guess I would've thought both of them were, I wouldn't have known that. That's not anything. What is that on the other side? Just Speaker 2 (17:22): She's playing with her tights. I think she's pulling her. Well, what she really looks like she's doing is stretching to me, looking over her right hip, sort of doing a hip flexor stretch. But she's not doing anything ballet related. And her body does not say to me that she's a ballet dancer. Typically when you see a ballet dancer, their feet are turned out like ducks because their hips are turned out. That's very important. And that front leg is parallel. It looks like it lives that way. The foot looks like it lives forward. And a dancer, their foot would live out to the side. Speaker 3 (17:58): So Speaker 2 (17:58): She may be a dancer. Speaker 3 (18:02): Her foot is kind of Speaker 2 (18:03): The back foot. Oh, the back foot. So you'd be standing. Speaker 3 (18:07): Gotcha. Speaker 2 (18:07): You and I would stand like this. Speaker 3 (18:09): And Speaker 2 (18:09): A ballet dancer would stand like this just naturally because they're always working on their hip turnout. So to see someone standing like that, she would be exaggeratedly into a stretch and just to be standing up straight, her foot probably wouldn't in there. Speaker 3 (18:22): Okay. Speaker 2 (18:22): That is an undesirable position in the foot, I think. But what do I know? These are all opinions from a non-classical trained dancer. Speaker 3 (18:31): Well, that's way more than I would've ever known, so that's fine. And you said the other one is fourth. Speaker 2 (18:40): The arms are in fourth. So one arm out to the side, one arm over your head. Speaker 3 (18:44): Okay. Speaker 2 (18:45): Would be a version of fourth. You could also be in France. Speaker 3 (18:48): So do you know, I don't know if you've already read the label, but do you know the artist Speaker 2 (18:53): Of this? Speaker 3 (18:53): Yes. Because this is probably one that I would think most dancers would be aware of. Speaker 2 (18:59): Yes. And immediately you would just think this is probably Dega. Who else would it be? These are famous ballerina, Speaker 3 (19:05): One Speaker 2 (19:06): Dancer. I don't know anything about this sculpture. The one where what looks to me like stretching. But since she is in there, I'm guessing she is also. Well, that's true. And he did other ones Speaker 3 (19:17): That were not dancers. So it Speaker 2 (19:20): Could be, I'm sure there are people listening to this right now laughing at me saying, how could you not know? No, Speaker 3 (19:23): No, no. I don't know. Speaker 2 (19:25): Oh, no dance people who are going to say, Julie, you should know that. Oh, well, Speaker 3 (19:28): No, he did lots of ones of just ladies bathing. I mean, they're all kind of creepy and voyeuristic. Right. Speaker 2 (19:38): You're the expert. Well, I mean, maybe I guess Speaker 3 (19:42): These bronzes maybe feel less creepy than some of the drawings, the pastels that he did. Because the way they're framed, and by that, I'm not talking about a literal frame, but the way he has composed the image, and he had described this too as almost looking through a keyhole. They have this and because a lot of 'em take place sort of backstage or in the dressing room, he's often trying to capture these women in moments where they're sort of not self-conscious and just being very much themselves. And so it has that feeling of they're the only ones in the room. Speaker 2 (20:23): Yes. Sort of had these stolen moments that there was maybe a little voyeurist that they were not being self-conscious, which is interesting to take that moment from people who are so conscious of everything that's going on in their bodies, on their faces. Speaker 3 (20:35): Dancers, Speaker 2 (20:35): You mean ballet dancers specifically. Everything's supposed to be perfect, and it's very little about interpretation and about following a rule. Yeah. Speaker 3 (20:44): That's interesting to think about that most of Degas works are not of the actual performance, but the preparation or on the sidelines or just people when they're not on stage. So I wonder if he realized maybe that when somebody is so hyper aware of their appearances and being on a stage, the minute that cuts off that they're extra relaxed. Speaker 2 (21:14): But don't you find that that's when people are at their most interesting, that moment right after? Speaker 3 (21:18): Yeah. Speaker 2 (21:18): I love that moment. I love catching people in that moment. I must be dig out on the inside. I will have a dance teacher who is giving out so much energy and smiling, and then you see them turn and take that moment of their own, Speaker 3 (21:30): Like, Speaker 2 (21:30): Ooh, I got to pull this together. And you're like, oh, I love that moment. I love being a part of that moment. And when I'm teaching, I'm always like, oh, nobody saw that. I was like, Ooh, I just made a face. Speaker 3 (21:39): Oh yeah. Yeah. I think now we think of dancers. I don't know, maybe this is me, but I feel like we hold dancers in a high regard, but this was really not the case when he was making, these were not like wealthy people did not aspire to be a dancer. It was sort of like the washer woman's daughter or something who would go be a dancer. So there's a little bit of interesting class difference, I think, interesting to think about when we look at these pieces too, that the kind of movement that was happening at this time with impressionism and really was striving for a sort of realism. And that extended to the social too. So to maybe show people who it was almost kind of seen as indecent to show entertainers were not held in super high regard in that way and would not be certainly an aristocrat who would be the subject of art. The sexuality of Dega is so weird. Speaker 2 (22:52): Tell me more Russell. Well, because he Speaker 3 (22:57): Didn't actually talk to women ever, but is always studying Speaker 2 (23:03): Them. Speaker 3 (23:04): And he also said some really horrible misogynistic things about them sometimes. So he's a real hard person to put your finger on. Speaker 2 (23:15): I would not have gathered that by looking at these sculptures. Well, and Speaker 3 (23:18): That's Speaker 2 (23:19): The thing Speaker 3 (23:19): Is in a way he actually is capturing something that feels actually very real and is almost more fleshed out. On one hand, that's sort of voyeur look, feels maybe creepy in some instances. But then if you think about a lot of nudes and other paintings or artworks where there is almost like a viewer. The lady is in this position that is perfect, and we talk about that being on stage moment, that they're being painted in a way that is showing them in that perfect moment that is posed for the viewer. There is a presumed male audience basically for this nude woman. And so what's interesting about Dega is he's not showing them in that perfect moment. He's showing them adjusting their tights as you thought. Wow, I just hit that really hard. Speaker 2 (24:22): He did not hurt any art in that moment, Speaker 3 (24:24): But he's showing them adjusting their tights or practicing for ballet, stretching at the bar, things like that. And so just in a way, it is creepy on one hand, but then it ends up capturing this realism and actually feeling like, oh, that's a real person as opposed to just eye candy. Speaker 2 (24:49): I don't feel like either of these women are eye candy maybe for the time. I don't know. Speaker 3 (24:55): There seems to be certainly a realism even about their bodies. Maybe not. I don't know. I mean, they're not polished in the way that we can get, I guess, really study them anatomically or anything. But they are, I don't know. They don't feel super idealized. I mean, you said the one woman does not have a dancer's body, Speaker 2 (25:18): Well meaning the facility, not even the size. The one woman is softer than a typical ballet dancer. But there are just anatomical ways that the body has changed because of trying to force it into these unnatural positions all the time. So they're missing that part. It's not so much the weight. I mean they're larger, but the turning out of the body and the way that her shoulders are really up and not really down. And Speaker 3 (25:43): She's Speaker 2 (25:44): Not an idealized version of a ballerina on the left, Speaker 3 (25:46): For sure. Speaker 2 (25:46): In the fourth position Speaker 3 (25:49): Probably. I mean, the thing about these too is that he probably did these maybe based on sketches, but the weird thing about these bronzes I just learned is that they're not, he never intended these to be bronzes. So this is one of those things where we look at these and because they're here in a museum and in a case and we see the name Dega, we assume, oh, well this must be what day got wanted. But in fact, they were discovered as wax models that he had made for his own use maybe to do sketches from or as models to work from that were then cast and bronze and sold later after his death. Speaker 2 (26:35): Little confederacy of D's action going on there when you're taking people's work after they've gone and publishing it. Speaker 3 (26:42): So there's some Speaker 2 (26:45): Interest. Well, who's the voyeur now, Russell? We are looking into something that was not meant for our eyes. Speaker 3 (26:49): Right, exactly. It's like his own private stash of sketches, but three D sketches that were then turned into sculptures. He only made one bronze, one sculpture that he ever intended to be exhibited, which is the famous little 14 year old dancer, which has the real tutu and the real hair. And so that was the only sculpture that he ever exhibited. And then these are just were made after his death and as an addition. And so I think there were maybe 150 of the originals that were found. And then out of those, only half of them were in good enough condition where they could cast them into bronzes. So it is weird. It's like, you're right. That is an interesting thing that it's voyeuristic too, that we're like, Speaker 2 (27:42): And now we're the creepers. Speaker 3 (27:43): Exactly. We're creeping around in his closet. Speaker 2 (27:45): That's not why I came to the museum today to be creeping around in Degas's closet unintentionally. This is not my fault. I did not pick these pieces of art, but can you imagine if you were working on something and after your death? Yeah, that'd be intense. Speaker 3 (27:59): Yeah. Well, Speaker 2 (28:00): You're dead, so what do you care about? I Speaker 3 (28:01): Guess you're dead. But yeah, I mean, it is weird though that you don't, we think so much about, we assume a lot of things are what the artist intended or the context, but there's lots of things that we look at that we're meant to be in a church or meant to be a part of somebody's worship practice, and now we're looking at them as just a painting in this other context of the museum. So it's Speaker 2 (28:30): An interesting thought. Speaker 3 (28:32): Yeah. Do any other things pop out at you kind of looking at this from a dance perspective? Speaker 2 (28:39): I like her from a dance perspective. She's got energy moving through her limbs, which is important. Not this one maybe, but her leg is really reaching out there. She obviously has worked out it. You don't have that kind of extension if you're not stretching, working those things. The girl on the right, I'm still not convinced as a dancer. I know that she is, but, Speaker 3 (28:56): Well, I don't know. She is. Speaker 2 (28:58): Oh, okay. Speaker 3 (28:59): Here, I'll go look at the label. Speaker 2 (29:01): No, I looked at the label. It said she was playing with her tights. That's where I got that idea from because I thought she was stretching. Speaker 3 (29:06): She Speaker 2 (29:06): Just seemed to me to be stretching. In a moment. Speaker 3 (29:08): I thought I was a dancer. But then after you said that, now I started to doubt it. I was like, oh, I don't know. Maybe you're right. Speaker 2 (29:14): And maybe the turnout really has come a long way in the last 50 years. I don't think so. Speaker 3 (29:20): So this is a weird question I wasn't really sure of. And how old is ballet Speaker 2 (29:26): In the late 17 hundreds? Speaker 3 (29:27): It started and it was Speaker 2 (29:28): Four kings and queens, and it was for the aristocracy. Speaker 3 (29:32): I only know things through movies and television, of Speaker 2 (29:35): Course. Speaker 3 (29:36): So I was thinking like, Speaker 2 (29:37): Well, there's definitely Speaker 3 (29:38): Ballet in the movie Amadeus. That's a big point in the opera that they don't want ballet and opera mixing. And so it was like, it's at least that old. So that was actually, so in the 17 hundreds it was actually kind of new. Speaker 2 (29:52): Yes. It's always Speaker 3 (29:53): Crazy. I feel like that's not that old, Speaker 2 (29:56): Right? Speaker 3 (29:56): I mean obviously it's old, but I just feel like as an art form, it's not that old. Speaker 2 (30:03): I would explain where it sits among the museum and the symphony and Speaker 3 (30:08): What you think. It's kind of like Speaker 2 (30:10): We're the littler one. Speaker 3 (30:11): Oh, really? Speaker 2 (30:12): I feel like we are well in the city for sure. Speaker 3 (30:14): Interesting. Speaker 2 (30:15): I don't think if you say to anyone, we're going to go see the symphony or we're going to go hear the symphony, and they go, okay, I can relate to that. I'm going to go to the museum. Sounds good. The ballet, I don't know. Dance is this different art form that internalizing for people makes them uncomfortable, I think. Why Speaker 3 (30:30): Do you think that is? Speaker 2 (30:31): I don't think people want to embarrass themselves. And there's no more way to publicly embarrassing yourself than having to dance in front of people. Speaker 3 (30:37): But I mean, I guess do you think to watch it? Well, Speaker 2 (30:39): So then it's not relatable to you, right? It's not something you can do. Can you draw that turtle? Yes, I can go look at art. Speaker 3 (30:46): Can Speaker 2 (30:46): You listen to music? Totally. You have to know. Speaker 3 (30:49): So because I don't do it, I don't have any way of watching it and really connecting with it. Speaker 2 (30:54): Right. It's just doesn't relate to Speaker 3 (30:55): Me. Speaker 2 (30:56): I don't express myself through dance, so why would I want to watch people do it? Speaker 3 (31:01): Well, it's interesting. I would never have thought of it as being less appealing than the symphony, because I feel like, I guess from my viewpoint, it's like, oh, well you have music plus dance. It's like going to a symphony, but there's something to look at. Speaker 2 (31:20): I totally agree with you. And we had a, Speaker 3 (31:22): And sorry. If I ever do a podcast with a symphony, I hope they never listen to this because it just sounded like, I was like, whoa, I love the symphony. But that's like, for me, it's like, oh yeah, there's music and there's a show. You get to watch people do stuff. Speaker 2 (31:35): It's much more now things to look at and see in here. But we had a president of our board once who said, ballet, we have half naked super fit people right in front of you. And people still don't want to come. There's some disconnect between what they're doing and who we are. Speaker 3 (31:52): Whereas Speaker 2 (31:52): With music, everyone can connect to music. I think that's true. But when I hear the symphony, there's no dancing. I am like, whoa. Speaker 3 (32:00): There are not fit naked people. Speaker 2 (32:03): I didn't say that. That was Russell. I don't know what the symphony looks like naked. I've never worried about it. Speaker 3 (32:07): Well, that's something we should be playing up to. Obviously got lots of naked people. Speaker 2 (32:11): So much nudity. Speaker 3 (32:12): So much nudity. Speaker 2 (32:13): People on purpose posing for men, right? Yeah. What more can you ask for? I Speaker 3 (32:17): Mean, hey, I'm looking over at Roman boy's butt right now too. It's Speaker 2 (32:20): Intense. He's in shape. Let me, Speaker 3 (32:23): We've got a little something for everyone actually Speaker 2 (32:25): Fully clothed people, because it's more your style. There's a nun over here. Speaker 3 (32:29): I totally have no eye for what the average person will find shocking or scandalous. So definitely I was with a school group once. It was a high school group, and the teacher actually asked me, I think specifically if we had anything by Dega. It was not supposed to be on the tour. And then I was like, oh yeah. And so on our way out back to the door, I dropped by here and she was like, oht know they'd be nude. And I just thought I would never have thought this was scandalous. But I guess, I don't know. I don't know. I don't think about it that way. But I guess maybe you wouldn't think of this as scandalous. Speaker 2 (33:11): I do not. And I'm not even a huge fan of nudity. And they, she's nude and it's fine. It's not grotesque or Speaker 3 (33:19): I just feel like when something's in bronze, it can't be sexy. Speaker 2 (33:23): No, I find nothing sexy. Speaker 3 (33:25): It's not fleshy. It's not. Speaker 2 (33:28): Did you say it's not fleshy? Speaker 3 (33:29): Yeah, it's not fleshy. It doesn't have that. I don't know. Well in here, I mean, I think it actually benefits the work in that it feels very quick. People often say you can actually see his thumbprints in there. It's very rough. The quality of it is, I think in a way, when we were talking about dancing, it's like capturing this gesture very quickly. And so it feels very energetic. It feels like alive in that way, in the way that the bronze is cast from the wax that was all built up. But all of that equals not terribly sexy to me. Speaker 2 (34:09): No. Even I woman dancing with her leg up naked. It's not sexy in any way. Speaker 3 (34:16): I feel like she doesn't have much of a face either, Speaker 2 (34:19): But sometimes that's a good thing. That was Russell. Just Speaker 3 (34:23): Kidding. Speaker 2 (34:24): So it does feel like you captured a moment, but the moment that she's in, in my guess is that moment takes time. That's a soft moment to get to. I think as opposed to a quick kick, she looks like she's lifted her leg up bent and then straightened it out. So that's a moment that took time. And then your goal is to hold that moment. Speaker 3 (34:43): And Speaker 2 (34:43): So she's reaching, her leg is reaching Speaker 3 (34:46): To Speaker 2 (34:46): Hold that moment. So it is movement, but there is a stillness in that moment on Speaker 3 (34:52): Purpose. Oh, Speaker 2 (34:53): He didn't catch her in the midst of, Speaker 3 (34:55): Okay. Speaker 2 (34:56): He caught her at the end of a woo. Look at this. Out, out, out, out, out and down. That's my guess. Speaker 3 (35:02): Nice. See, I would never have thought that, but you know way more about dancing Speaker 2 (35:07): And what I know is still very little. But once again, girl on the right, no clue. Stretching her butt. She's very pretty. She seems very into her body. In her body as a dance person. Whereas the other girls shoulders are not where we want them. Speaker 3 (35:26): And what do you mean? Speaker 2 (35:28): Maybe it's her body. You want your shoulders down the back. You want to be standing up tall and proud. So this is probably a stolen moment from someone by themselves just working at home in this moment, her head isn't doing anything. Speaker 3 (35:43): Yeah. So you look at that and you see the shoulders in the head are not what would be ideal Speaker 2 (35:50): In this exact moment. She's not all the way there, but she's got a lot of talent. She's got a lot of, we like her. I don't know, energetically. And it's changing. When we first sat down, I felt a lot of sadness with her, and that could be me and the time and whatever, and I'm feeling less and less as we sit here with her. Speaker 3 (36:08): You felt sadness for her. Speaker 2 (36:10): I felt like she was just having this quiet moment of reflection to herself. And like I said, it could be what I'm bringing to the table, and now I'm feeling less of that. Do you have any energetic moments from her emotionally Speaker 3 (36:24): With them? Speaker 2 (36:25): Yes. Speaker 3 (36:28): No, I respond more to the tights lady than the Speaker 2 (36:32): You do? Speaker 3 (36:33): Yeah. Speaker 2 (36:34): Talk to me about that. Speaker 3 (36:36): Maybe it is just, well, I guess it is that it feels much more human to me and that it isn't performative, that it is just, I like that it is cast in bronze, this very sort of mundane thing. I kind of like that you don't see, I guess in the, Hey, we were just being critical of the fact that this is cast in bronze when the artist never intended that. But I kind of like it because of that, actually. Because it is this weird an anachronistic thing happening where we think of bronze as very, it's like, oh, it's so much work and it's expensive. So if somebody's making a bronze, they really are serious about it. It's usually very serious. So it is really interesting to have something so common feeling as a bronze. I don't know. It's kind of nice. Speaker 2 (37:37): I'm just saying, I would never have put the thought that you would wait to do something very special to cast it in bronze because of what a paint it is and the expense. Speaker 3 (37:44): Yeah. Well, Speaker 2 (37:45): So it gives this level of importance that something wasn't supposed to have. It's interesting. Speaker 3 (37:49): Yeah. You don't just start, I mean, to work in bronze, it involves usually starting with something like wax, or actually, a lot of times people start with clay and then they're making casts of the clay that then they pour wax into. And then from that they make another mold that the Bolton bronze goes in and melts the wax away. So it just goes on and on and on. And just the material is expensive, so you got to be kind of serious about it. Speaker 2 (38:20): See the more, I'll never look at a bronze statue of the scene. Thank you Speaker 3 (38:25): For, thanks for being with me today, Julie. That's Speaker 2 (38:27): Great. Speaker 1 (38:34): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free. And we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are Van Gogh into the Undergrowth Kentucky Renaissance, the Lexington Camera Club, and its community. 1954 to 1974, the book of only Enoch and the Jackleg Testament, part one. Jack and Eve. Join us on the night before Thanksgiving, Wednesday, November 23rd, five to 9:00 PM for art after Dark Kentucky Renaissance. Enjoy free bourbon tastings from new rift, distilling free admission to special exhibitions, food for purchase from Eli's barbecue and live music from the part-time gentlemen. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. Our theme song is Aron iCal by Baccala. If you liked our show, give us a nice review on iTunes. It helps others find our podcast. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.