Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace. 

Speaker 2 (00:02):
If you do communicate in a way that literally offends nobody, that isn't not anyone's cup of tea, then it might just be 

Speaker 3 (00:10):
Nothing. 

Speaker 2 (00:11):
It might be so blamed to the point that's nothing Will watered down. 

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome to Art Palace produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host Russell iig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool people are Caroline Ely and Kevin T. Porter from the podcast. Good Christian fun. I was trying to explain your show to a few people and I'm like, oh no, it's really great and I love it. And they would just constantly be like, but are they joking? What's Christian? How serious, 

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Right. The answer to every question is yes. I was like, well, 

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, this is often our dilemma. I have multiple times had to describe this show to people who I know are not religious in any way too. 

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Just be like, and you always feel stupid, or that it's 

Speaker 3 (01:16):
So 

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Convoluted worth 

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Stupid, or Yeah. Or they're preparing for me to sell them about a church they can come to as well 

Speaker 2 (01:22):
And stuff like that. 

Speaker 3 (01:23):
But I'm like, but it's a comedy. And they're like, so you're funny. I'm like, yeah, I hope 

Speaker 2 (01:27):
So. 

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Maybe not. 

Speaker 2 (01:31):
But it feels like there's this movement that's happened too in music journalism in particular where the old adage with the baby boomer rock critics was like, well, rock and roll worth discussing and talking about and writing essays about. And then there was this new movement called Pop Optimism, which is the idea that not only are your adult oriented rock bands like Led Zeppelin and the Beatles worth discussing for years on end, but also pop stuff like Britney Spears or Carly Rae Jepson or Justin Timberlake, that those are of equal worth and value. 

Speaker 3 (02:08):
So 

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Our show is trying to take that same lens of just asking the question and granting the premise that maybe this is of worth and value in some way, and then seeing if that hypothesis is true. 

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah. Well, and I think it's been fun because there is, especially when there's a religious angle to the art that people are making this room, there's all these layers of sociological and psychological stuff that's added in, built in already 

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Tension 

Speaker 3 (02:35):
And a mythology built in already of what this is and what we're trying to say. And so there's always a bit to talk about, even if it's something that's dumb as Carmen and his horrible punny weird owl songs. 

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Exactly. 

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Well, yeah, when you just mentioned intention, that's something we butt up against all the time, and I'll see people commenting online, especially if we post an image of a piece that maybe is a little challenging to our audience, especially things that are really contemporary, really abstract things that people don't generally love. A lot of folks, I will say 

Speaker 3 (03:08):
That are my six year old could do it that line. 

Speaker 1 (03:11):
And there's this a thought too that a lot of people come to that they'll say, well, I feel like I should be able to stand in front of a piece of art and not know anything about its context and be able to just appreciate it without knowing anything about the artist's intention or anything 

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Interesting, 

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Which seems fair. But then I always think about that, and it always brings me actually back to religious work, which is that I always think about a person who is maybe raised in a country where the predominant religion was Hinduism, let's say, and they stand before one of these pieces in this gallery, and they don't necessarily know right away who these people are, and it puts you in. So the idea that everyone could somehow have equal footing with an artwork is sort of an absurd idea because of course, the context matters, right? 

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (03:59):
We 

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Have an assumption that like, oh, because I know the story of this and everyone would, or 

Speaker 1 (04:03):
That's 

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Key to understanding it. 

Speaker 2 (04:05):
And there's a way to guild the Lilly where you give too much context like the actual product A 

Speaker 3 (04:10):
Genius. 

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, exactly. Where it's people. We were even talking about just in the music industry, how people get caught up in the minutia of like, oh, well this producer worked with him and then he slept with her wife. And it's like, well, to a certain extent it doesn't matter. 

Speaker 3 (04:25):
But 

Speaker 2 (04:25):
To a certain extent, some works are almost indecipherable sands context and without which it's just like, what am I even looking at? You need to contextualize, especially some of the nonsense we've had to watch where it's like, Ooh, if you did have context at all, it seemed like aliens made this stuff. It's so crazy. 

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yes. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (04:46):
But I think, I don't know, one of the things that I think is what you're doing with the show that's really, I don't know, it seems maybe grander than maybe you intended or maybe it's not, is that it is. 

Speaker 2 (04:57):
We only had grand intentions for the show. 

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Whatever you're thinking is the most intellectual thing that we went, 

Speaker 2 (05:03):
What we were going for. The smartest genius thing. That's us sounds right. But 

Speaker 1 (05:07):
No, I mean, especially looking at your Facebook group and stuff and seeing what a diverse audience you have, it's really fascinating to think about how people who are not believers, who are believers, who come from all these different backgrounds are really interested in this thing that I don't think they would otherwise be paying attention 

Speaker 3 (05:27):
To. Totally. That has always been genuinely surprising to me because I can understand coming from this background and this feeling like some kind of, it would scratch an itch for me, but to have no context for this and then add on the religious component of that, which is uncomfortable for a lot of people too. Yes. I am amazed by the diversity of the audience or people who just want to hear us talk about something. But yeah, I think that's something cool about talking about art. You can find a meaning in it, and it's a relation point. 

Speaker 2 (05:58):
It's very surprising. Some we're very grateful for because so much of the content that we talk about is by definition, tribalism, and 

Speaker 2 (06:07):
This one is literally just preaching to the choir, and this one is kind of a dog whistle for a certain political belief system or a worldview. So to try to deconstruct that in a way that is hopefully constructive for a conversation and bring more voices in rather than honestly the white male ones that dominate so much of contemporary Christian music or films and things of that nature. It's very encouraging for us to, and in doing so, deconstruct our own identities having been raised with a lot of this stuff and be able to invite more people in, which again, of course it wasn't one of our grand intentions, we need to include America, but thankfully it's been a very lovely byproduct that we are very grateful for. 

Speaker 3 (06:50):
But I think I will say, I think it was our intention that this wouldn't be exclusive to someone who 

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Correct is 

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Currently a Christian and feels weird about it or whatever. We had the hope that it would feel inclusive enough that no one would feel threatened or whatever if they joined. 

Speaker 2 (07:05):
And a healthy amount of fart jokes too. And 

Speaker 3 (07:07):
I think that's the great unifier. 

Speaker 2 (07:10):
I mean, it's the grading quote. 

Speaker 3 (07:11):
We laughs, but 

Speaker 2 (07:13):
It's the one thing we all, 

Speaker 3 (07:14):
It's true. We all got to do it. 

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, no, I definitely, that was feel 

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Like I need to apologize to the Jesus directly 

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Behind me. I know there's a lot of them around you. 

Speaker 3 (07:27):
He like it. Yeah. There's quite a few. You're 

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Kind of surrounded 

Speaker 3 (07:30):
Jesus, Mary, sorry, sorry, they're closing this. 

Speaker 1 (07:35):
There's probably more about as many Jesuses in this room as if you were in a Catholic church. Probably. We probably are 

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Probably not wrong. 

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Close to the number. When you factor in all, there's stations of the cross and things like that. There's 

Speaker 3 (07:46):
A church I go to now and there's a stained glass at the very top of the building and it's, oh, 

Speaker 2 (07:51):
It's very sad. 

Speaker 3 (07:52):
It's a Jesus with his arm stretched out over the globe, and he's a very white Jesus. It's just so funny. And I've talked to the church leaders and they're like, we don't know what to do with it. We don't like it. 

Speaker 2 (08:05):
They inherited the building, 

Speaker 3 (08:06):
But it's so expensive 

Speaker 2 (08:07):
To 

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Fix it. Now what do we do? Paint him brown? How do we decide how brown he gets? How do we 

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Cover him up? 

Speaker 3 (08:13):
That's expensive then. But it's nice. 

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Funny in some instances too. Now I'm going to be like, Ooh, art talk please, please. But a lot of, well, some stained glasses, windows are literally stained where the glass is painted, but a lot of them is the color is in the glass, so it's like there's not, what 

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Do you do? 

Speaker 1 (08:31):
I mean, you could put a clear stain on it or something too. 

Speaker 2 (08:34):
I think we should just throw baseballs at it and see what happens. 

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah. It's hard to know which is worse, Jesus darker, or to throw baseballs at it and just have it be done. 

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, it was made for charity. 

Speaker 3 (08:48):
I think we should just make it, we just black it out the whole thing. 

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Or make 

Speaker 3 (08:52):
Or just his figure or 

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Make the rest of the sanctuary wider. So he looks darker by comparison. Well, 

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Comparatively, I think it's okay. Could be ambiguous. I dunno. 

Speaker 1 (09:00):
I mean they could replace it, but of course it would be probably a little outside of their budget, I'm guessing. Totally. 

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Totally. And probably why would we spend money on that? Money? 

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah. Probably of all 

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Things they're 

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Probably like, we could be helping. 

Speaker 3 (09:11):
We could be help a family. 

Speaker 1 (09:12):
We could be helping the hungry and 

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Not worrying about our optics or, 

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Right, exactly. I mean, that's a really interesting thing about thinking about the aesthetics of a church, of you have on one hand an image that's conveying a message, but then also, of course, the actions of a church are conveying this whole other message, of course. 

Speaker 3 (09:28):
And how we decide to treat it. Yeah. Oh, 

Speaker 1 (09:30):
That's really fascinating. 

Speaker 3 (09:31):
And a very fascinating thing for me too, is how different churches interpret what is a sacred space or not. 

Speaker 1 (09:38):
And 

Speaker 3 (09:39):
I think especially in mainstream evangelical Christian churches, they're like, we can meet in a gym, and that's still church, which is beautiful in a way that the community defines what the churches, but there's also, you lose this art when you're in places like that. And 

Speaker 2 (09:55):
That's especially true of the Protestant Catholic divide as well. Totally. Where there's a lot more explicitly Christian imagery in Catholic churches, where in some Protestant churches it's like, I think this is a church. It could be an arena, 

Speaker 1 (10:08):
But 

Speaker 3 (10:09):
Somehow we're also still comfortable with an American flag on the stage that 

Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's a huge 

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Thing, very necessary. Where I went to, there's a Christian flag. Have you ever seen that? 

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When I was a kid and we went to vacation Bible school, we had to do a pledge to the Christian flag. I did that as well. Yes. I pledge just to the Christian flag. I 

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Don't even remember my in school. One time I wrote a report about how that's iconography and that's messed up. And 

Speaker 1 (10:32):
My 

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Teacher was like, I don't think this is good. And I had to convince her to give me a good grade because she was like, this is bad. You're going to get in trouble. I was like, no, no, no. Read it. It makes sense. Right? Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (10:45):
You had a very impressionable teacher. 

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah. You swindled down radio, 

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Right? No, I was talking about this with some friends last night actually, about how I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, which is rather spartan on the sort of decor. Right. 

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Well, on purpose, I think too. 

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Absolutely. 

Speaker 2 (11:06):
It's usually just a cross, right? 

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yes. And I remember when I was a kid, I would ask my mom, I'm like, well, how come we don't get a cool sculpture of Jesus? I would go to a Catholic wedding or something. I'd be totally jealous of gorgeous, these of course, huge gothic buildings. Why don't we get this? And I was like, why don't we get a cool sculpture of Jesus? And it was like, because he's not on the cross anymore, was the answer I would get. 

Speaker 3 (11:33):
Interesting. 

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Which I was thinking, well, I doubt the cross is still there either. It seems to be fair. 

Speaker 3 (11:39):
You can only do Bible characters that are still alive. I was like, now 

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Really narrowing the gap here. It seems like 

Speaker 1 (11:45):
A very unsatisfying, but I mean, ultimately, I think it came down to the whole idea of you're idol worshiping 

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Or something. You don't want to worship item. 

Speaker 1 (11:54):
It's very 

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Interesting. 

Speaker 1 (11:55):
But I also love that something I'm really interested in is the architecture of churches, and you're talking about these arenas. And I always think about that of for me personally, and for me as a person who is no longer a believer, but who grew up in a church, oh, I'm sorry. Lemme 

Speaker 3 (12:15):
Tell you about the power of Jesus. 

Speaker 2 (12:15):
We have to leave. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to leave. So run, 

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Run. I don't feel safe. Yeah. Sorry. No, 

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Go ahead. Go 

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Ahead. But anyway, one of the things I do have trouble shaking is when I go to one of those mega churches of shaking my own expectations of what a church should look like and the sort of way that the architecture and the space influences my feelings of what is sacred. 

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yes, 

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Absolutely. And when so much of it seems like about comfort, which is what a lot, which sometimes that's 

Speaker 3 (12:48):
An interesting way to put it, a comfy seat with arm wrists and everyone can see. 

Speaker 1 (12:53):
It's like when you think about other 

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Times, I an un uncomfy as wooden pu, I can 

Speaker 3 (12:57):
Sit. It's interesting, yeah. About that. When you think 

Speaker 1 (12:59):
About, about a lot of ways that the sacred has been communicated in a lot of ways is often making things uncomfortable sometimes. Or you have monks whipping themselves to sort of get closer to God top of the pole, 

Speaker 3 (13:17):
Right? Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned mega churches because I know Catholic churches are always built with a definite structure of the cross is literally what defines the layout, the floor plan, and there's all these separate areas of worship. Whereas now that I'm thinking about it, megachurch, it's literally all about the stage right at the front. And we're all faced and directed toward that in a different way. And it's kind of interesting what that says about what we're paying attention to. 

Speaker 2 (13:40):
And there's so much things like spatially and architecturally that you kind of internalize when you experience those things that you don't understand. You process it externally and consciously because you're looking for those things 

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Because 

Speaker 2 (13:54):
What you do and what you're interested in, but so many people don't realize the influence that it does have. Totally. On a subconscious level, I intern at one of the bigger, or I think maybe the biggest mega church in the country, Lakewood, which is Joel Osteen's church for a summer. And that was a Protestant church by all accounts, but there was no crucifixes crucifix high anywhere. But what they did have is after the musical worship sets, the band would go down on the rise. It was a whole thing. It used to be the Houston Rockets arena through the stage. 

Speaker 3 (14:30):
Oh my gosh. It 

Speaker 2 (14:31):
Was the Houston Rockets arena. They called it the Compact Center before that, the spectrum. 

Speaker 3 (14:35):
So it wasn't built for the church, but it was 

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Repurposed, and then the city gave it to them. But then what comes up after the band leaves, and it's just whoever's preaching there is a big globe that just spins 

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Weird 

Speaker 2 (14:48):
And it's gold. Weird. 

Speaker 3 (14:50):
So 

Speaker 2 (14:50):
It's like, what is this? What 

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Are we saying? 

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah. What is that saying? That's 

Speaker 3 (14:54):
So interesting 

Speaker 2 (14:55):
In a particularly evangelical church where it's like, go make disciples of all the nations. It feels almost like more about colonization in some weird way because so much of the messaging is you can have it, you can do it, you can get the right breaks and the right opportunities and low key kind of what people call the prosperity gospel, which is if you believe in God, good things will happen monetarily, financially, relationship wise. And so even that messaging, I think is very important. Even conscious. Yes. 

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Well, that just reminded me. I was driving through Orlando and that's where the T B N headquarters are. 

Speaker 2 (15:35):
I've been there. 

Speaker 3 (15:35):
What did it look like? What was their big statue? A lot of 

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Gold. A lot of gold. 

Speaker 3 (15:39):
I bet. It 

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Looks like, I mean, to be artistically what it looks like is koco design, which is really fascinating because you're talking about basically the art that was made in France before the peasants beheaded everyone basically like 

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Wealth, 

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Basically communicating clearly extravagance wealth and this sort of life of leisure or 

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Being extra, as we like to say, millennials, 

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Oh boy, was very extra. 

Speaker 3 (16:17):
Rococo would be so extra, 

Speaker 2 (16:18):
So extra. But they were so lit with squad goals. 

Speaker 1 (16:23):
But I was really fascinated by that choice. And of course, again, I don't know how conscious that is. It's fascinating. Do you know what you're doing? Do you know what you're communicating here? And I mean, if you've ever watched T B N, which I did a lot just because I was obsessed with Jan Crouch's hair 

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Mesmerizing the look. 

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah. Got there. So I would watch it with the sort of kitschy appreciation as a kid. But yeah, I mean the whole stage is usually really, I mean, it's kind of like Trump aesthetic. I 

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Was just thinking that, not to make it political, but I was thinking of Trump's golden curtains that he installed in the Oval Office and how gold is so symbolic for purity and wealth and somehow, but that translates into character somehow. Or I earned this and I made it, which 

Speaker 2 (17:12):
I think explains a lot of the 81% white evangelicals that voted for him in the 2016 election, which for a lot of Christians is shocking. Oh, how could you align with that? But then for that subset, the tb n kind of Carmen subset, it's like, yeah, this is, 

Speaker 3 (17:27):
Wealth is virtue in a way 

Speaker 2 (17:29):
That is our brand 

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Message. 

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah. It's very much aligned. I've never thought about that, how the aesthetics are identical 

Speaker 3 (17:38):
Almost. 

Speaker 1 (17:38):
That's interesting. Yeah. And there is something about that that's so weird about just because when you think about a rich man getting into heaven and the camel and the eye of the needle and all of that, 

Speaker 3 (17:51):
It's against everything that Jesus would say truly. It's always 

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Just so, but what are you talking about? But 

Speaker 2 (17:56):
Literally, have you read it? 

Speaker 1 (17:57):
It's crazy. Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (18:00):
And of course we're blanket statement, a lot of things, things, but there is that weird aesthetic choice that wealth is desirable in a way for a Christian. 

Speaker 1 (18:09):
I mean, honestly, it's like, and I don't know where to draw the line, because again, we're sitting in a room full of stuff that some of it is rather opulent. And again, maybe it's not gold, but probably at the time it was made, it might have communicated a lot of those same things to the people who are looking at it and the people who are going to the church who maybe don't have this money. And we were talking about the look of your church if they spent money on this window and stuff. 

Speaker 3 (18:36):
It's like, what are I communicating? 

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah. How did that 

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Communicate? I guess if I were going to argue for a maybe slightly kinder, I dunno idea of what this could be, it's that maybe we're putting our very best into the religious art that we're making our very, very best anything, the most expensive thing that we can get, because this is what it deserves because it's sacred 

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Mean. 

Speaker 2 (18:58):
But let's not be unreasonable. 

Speaker 3 (19:00):
I still think it'd be better to probably pay for someone's food. 

Speaker 1 (19:03):
But 

Speaker 3 (19:04):
I think there is maybe something kind of lovely in that of we're not going to use our cheap stuff to make this. 

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Have you ever been to Vatican? 

Speaker 3 (19:11):
No. Oh my gosh. I've been to Notre Dame, 

Speaker 1 (19:13):
That 

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Kind thing. 

Speaker 1 (19:15):
So I went to mean they're both mean. Vatican is maybe a little more like, well, it's also newer. So the building itself is, I mean, now's the point where I have to pretend. I remember dates and I 

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Know, I'm trying to remember the little display is 

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Notre Dame medieval? Yes. 

Speaker 3 (19:32):
I think it was like 12 hundreds. 

Speaker 1 (19:34):
And then St. Peter's Basilica, the new St. Peter's basilica that still stands was built sort of after, I want to say late Renaissance Baroque period. And some of the art in it is later too, but it's also, I mean, you go in and it's so opulent and gorgeous, and so there is that push pull of like, well, there's so much wealth on display here 

Speaker 3 (19:58):
That's indulgent to some degree. 

Speaker 1 (20:01):
But I mean, at the same time, those things do create, it's that weird thing where I'm really interested in the way that art and architecture and all that stuff can actually to me create a sense of the spiritual. 

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Yeah. Oh yeah. It could transport you. Where else are you going to see something like this that maybe I think for them feels like heaven in a way of what heaven would look like? 

Speaker 1 (20:22):
If 

Speaker 3 (20:22):
You get to feel that on earth, it would be a shame to lose that. 

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah. We were even talking to a friend of ours who she would sing what was the denomination of the choir that she would sing in? 

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Oh, Episcopalian. 

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Episcopalian choirs where they would go, oh, to these really gorgeous cathedrals where literally at certain tones and pitches, the notes that they would make the walls of the cathedrals would sing it back to them 

Speaker 1 (20:43):
As well. Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Sing like a different tone. That's 

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Amazing. I find that a more compelling argument than gold Jesus on a cross. 

Speaker 1 (20:51):
I understand that 

Speaker 3 (20:52):
A little bit more. I love me a gold Jesus 

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Where there's beauty and intention of the design. But yeah, I think this is actually a very personal dichotomy or struggle for a lot of people, like drawing the line between what is extravagance and opulence versus necessity and how am I using the resources in my life, whether I'm a big church designing a property or an individual who needs to pay my taxes every year and then wants to donate to charity. How am I designing the use of my money in a way that reflects good values? There's a strange way in scaling that up to a church level. It just becomes a larger issue of actually an individual problem that I think a lot of people of faith in particular go through where it's like, Ooh, we want this to look good. And especially for face for whom the command is like, yeah, feed the poor. It's not a code, not, 

Speaker 3 (21:54):
I'm 

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Not trying to pull a fastball on you. It's 

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Literally feed 

Speaker 2 (21:56):
The poor, freaking poor. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (22:00):
And when you were just talking about music stuff too, it's like I don't know if there's an easy answer or there's an easy way to draw that line because in a certain way it's like the architecture and the decoration of a church is doing in a way visually what the music might be doing. 

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Right. And it is a service in a way. 

Speaker 1 (22:17):
And for us too, I think about this a lot in museums as well. I think a lot about how museum architecture and church architecture is often really similar. 

Speaker 3 (22:26):
Oh, how so? 

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Well, I mean, scale for one thing, right? Huge. You kind of feel a little small in these spaces, right? Yeah, totally. 

Speaker 3 (22:35):
The best kind of feeling museums is humbling. It's magnificent. 

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yes. Yes, exactly. It's humbling. And there's something about usually those spaces that also maybe hopefully inspire introspection as well in a certain way. 

Speaker 3 (22:49):
I guess they're so sparse otherwise. 

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, maybe 

Speaker 3 (22:51):
I'm thinking it's funny just to imagine this filled with clutter, just chairs the 

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Couches, some coffee 

Speaker 3 (22:57):
Tables. I'll move it later. 

Speaker 1 (23:01):
But they're both of them I think of, and I think a lot of our audiences perceive them this way. And sometimes it's a push-pull that I have of people think of a museum as a sacred space and that sometimes we do things and programs that are meant to be fun and to have, 

Speaker 3 (23:19):
And they're not in front of the art. 

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Literally, one time I had for a family program, we brought in the Red's mascots and they were walking around the gallery and it's 

Speaker 3 (23:30):
So funny 

Speaker 1 (23:31):
And one and 

Speaker 3 (23:34):
One of 'em just really staring at something and really thinking about his life. Well, the 

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Reds have just a plethora of mascots too. So we have one called Gapper who's like the wacky 

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Muppet gapper. You know who this he's talking about? 

Speaker 1 (23:48):
She's like, yeah, I know 

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Gapper. I friend Emily is here. She's a local. 

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (23:54):
I like That's her title. Emily local. 

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Emily local. Local person. 

Speaker 1 (24:01):
So he was here and he was, I think they had the costume built in with some kind of wacky whistle. One of those things that was like woo things. And so he was walking. That is 

Speaker 2 (24:13):
A funny, I want to see is there footage of this? I 

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Don't think there was, because I think I was walking around echo escorting him at this point. Oh my God. But yeah, so we were walking around and we had people complain that gapper was ruining their 

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Art viewing 

Speaker 1 (24:29):
Experience. Basically the 

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Piece of art moved him so much. He tried to lead the museum and the Y M C A, 

Speaker 3 (24:36):
He had everyone doing the wave. The thought of someone having to go up to a security man in dead series and be like, gapper is interrupting my experience with his silly whistle. 

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Please 

Speaker 3 (24:51):
Get him out. 

Speaker 1 (24:52):
But I mean, for them, they were at church. Right? 

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Well, that I understand. I thought they were going to just protest the idea of a mascot, even gracing these hallat halls. But I understand actually. 

Speaker 1 (25:01):
I mean, it might have on some level felt that way. 

Speaker 3 (25:02):
If I was here staring though at a beautiful piece of art and a mascot walked by and tried to trip me, I would be mad. 

Speaker 1 (25:08):
You'd be a little mean. I don't think he was harming people. 

Speaker 3 (25:11):
No, I heard he was hitting people with a hammer. Whoa. Was a crazy be. No. 

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Are we going to me too gapper? Good grief. Gapper. Yeah, 

Speaker 3 (25:22):
He totally harassed a lot of women. 

Speaker 1 (25:25):
No, don't say that. 

Speaker 3 (25:26):
This is not true about gapper at all. Is gapper genderless? I'm assuming it's a man. Always 

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Are. I think gapper has always been referred to as a he. I mean, don't know. Hey, look, I don't 

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Know. Let's say they them just to be safe. They them forgot 

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Her. I assume that's probably safe. We do have lots of other gendered mascots for the reds. We have Mr. Red who's the original, and then we have Mr. Red Legs who's like 

Speaker 2 (25:50):
This crazy. 

Speaker 3 (25:53):
Let's see, 

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Is there Mrs. Red legs? 

Speaker 1 (25:58):
So yeah, Mr. Red Legs is 

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Hate that 

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Has an old timey mustache. Oh my God. And in slightly crazier eyes, he looks like, actually it's So is he 

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Like the ID of Mr. Red? But Mr. Red 

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Wants to do, 

Speaker 3 (26:15):
It's like inner demon. 

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, that's probably, yeah, I think you might be right. He also has an old timey, original red legs uniform too. 

Speaker 3 (26:22):
Okay. So 

Speaker 1 (26:22):
That's what the mustache is. He's supposed to be turn of the century. 

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Oh, okay. Casey goes to bat. 

Speaker 1 (26:26):
Exactly. 

Speaker 2 (26:27):
I think that's such an interesting idea because man, I just want to talk about gapper the rest of this podcast. We can do that. I'll refrain, lemme 

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Dive into gapper. 

Speaker 2 (26:35):
But the idea of the silly or wacky or even just the more pedestrian colliding with something that's meant to be preserved or curated or sacred. So something Caroline and I have run into, even in doing our podcast about Christian media and art and stuff is now we've started talking to venues that aren't just like, oh, a music venue that we're turning into a comedy venue or a theater that we're, but also churches as well. And one of the conversations we have at the outset of that is, are you okay with us or our guests over which we have no control per se, basically saying whatever we want, saying 

Speaker 3 (27:14):
The P word, 

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Saying the poop word saying. Yeah. On stage. Literally swearing. Because some churches would say no. 

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah. Or I think if anything, they're probably worried of what their congregation would hear or get upset about too. 

Speaker 2 (27:27):
And I find that the churches that, and this might be a personal preference for me as well, but churches that have more of a minimalist approach in terms of certain architecture are usually the ones where the confluence of those two things and the inherent contradiction of this weird, silly thing happening in this sacred space isn't as much of a big deal. 

Speaker 3 (27:54):
So even 

Speaker 2 (27:55):
In Los Angeles, a lot of the churches don't meet in church buildings. They mean like high schools and gymnasiums and things that they're retrofitting for that. And so because of that, they take on minimal design that does have purpose, but it's a different kind of purpose than the one that's afforded for people that can design those statues, carvings, and the walls and whatnot. 

Speaker 1 (28:16):
So maybe they almost, in a way it's like this space is more flexible in itself, 

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Or temporary in a way 

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Because it's all about function rather than spectacle. 

Speaker 1 (28:27):
I 

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Think in those cases, not dogging on the ones that do serve spectacle functions as well, but for the ones that are just functional, there's less of a preciousness over like Yeah, gapper can come in and do a sermon if he wants to. That's like gapper have a shot at Absolutely. Just pantomiming 

Speaker 3 (28:45):
The stations of the cross 

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Ash of the Christ by I would watch that. Oh my God. 

Speaker 3 (28:53):
And I'm thinking of Mr. Red legs dressing as Mary for part of it. I see him as kind of a fluid gender figure. 

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Sure, sure, sure, sure. I do as well. 

Speaker 1 (29:01):
We also, we have not to make this all about the Red's mascots for like 25 minutes, 

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Please. 

Speaker 1 (29:06):
But there's also Rosie Red. 

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Rosie Red 

Speaker 1 (29:10):
Who's our lady. Mast lady. The lady. Yes, exactly. And that's, 

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Is she kind of brassy or is she kind of shy? 

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Well, none of them actually speak having spent actually a surprising amount of time. 

Speaker 3 (29:22):
But you can tell. 

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, you can 

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Be a flirt with no words at all. 

Speaker 1 (29:25):
I would say. So when she's been here doing things, I will say she's a little brassy. 

Speaker 3 (29:31):
A little brassy, a little in your face. 

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yes. I would say now to look at her, you might not suspect that, but I'm just saying she's 

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Lady first. Don't judge. Judge Red by her 

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Costume. Right, but it's 

Speaker 3 (29:43):
Rosie. 

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, but she has kind of a little skirt too. Sort of like a league of their own style. 

Speaker 2 (29:48):
I'll cut it. I'm just kidding. I'm sorry. Oh 

Speaker 3 (29:50):
My God. You're going to be the next Me 

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Too. If you 

Speaker 3 (29:54):
Carry on that way. 

Speaker 2 (29:55):
I have some things to Google on the way. 

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Okay, Kevin? I said history going to add, add more to my collage history. What was that, Rosie? 

Speaker 2 (30:04):
The red skirt length. Yeah, it was for a project 

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Was a joke. 

Speaker 1 (30:10):
It was a 

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Fun joke project. 

Speaker 1 (30:15):
I don't know if this is the right time, but I was thinking we could actually look at art. I 

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Think this is the rightest time. This 

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Is the is rightest time? Very. Okay. Well, we are actually already pretty much looking the right way, so I wanted to just flip ourselves to face. I shouldn't mention, we are in Gallery 2 0 4, 

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Shirley m Davies Gallery. If you're familiar, 

Speaker 1 (30:39):
I'm going to also say 

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Shirley was a true class act 

Speaker 2 (30:42):
And love 

Speaker 1 (30:43):
The red Nost. 

Speaker 3 (30:44):
Love the reds. 

Speaker 1 (30:45):
That's why we painted the walls red. Exactly. 

Speaker 2 (30:47):
For Shirley's wishes, 

Speaker 3 (30:49):
She's buried beneath this. 

Speaker 1 (30:51):
None of this is true 

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Actually. Then her soul inhabits that statute. 

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yes. This is Russell. Seeing that's not true with Carol. 

Speaker 2 (31:00):
We do need Russell to fact check whether a soul, I going to 

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Page. 

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Okay. I guess I can't say that for 100% sure. Her soul 

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Is not. Are you a medium Russell? I didn't think so. 

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Okay. Okay. Let's stick 

Speaker 2 (31:11):
To our pay grades here. 

Speaker 1 (31:13):
All right. I don't want Shirley or her family coming 

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Back to me. Shirley, 

Speaker 2 (31:20):
This is the podcast that does in the 

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Museum, right? I don't want to find out, get a call from the development office saying, this gift has been taken away from us because you said she was buried under the gallery. And I go, oh, yeah, that was just a goof. We were having a real good time there. One 

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Of the, but she was, so this piece, 

Speaker 3 (31:40):
What am I looking at here? 

Speaker 1 (31:41):
What are we looking at? Well, we are just to set the stage, we are looking at the giant altar piece in the middle of the room. 

Speaker 3 (31:49):
That's Mr. Red licks 

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Looking at at, she's pointing at a gentleman who is, I'm guessing John the Baptist. 

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Oh, right on the 

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Left to right. 

Speaker 3 (31:59):
And he's cheekily pulling up his little robe there and really showing off a nice path. 

Speaker 2 (32:04):
John the Baptist is about to pull a basic instinct in the piece. 

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Oh my gosh. God, 

Speaker 3 (32:10):
I'm so sorry. Keep going. Finish your description. 

Speaker 1 (32:12):
I'll shut up. So no, just we're looking at the boring title we have given. This is Ultra Peace with Students from the Old and New Testaments also then in parentheses tend tend au 

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Which means what? 

Speaker 3 (32:28):
Tender ribs. 

Speaker 1 (32:29):
It means relo from Tenia, which is a place in Spain. 

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Oh, okay. Okay. 

Speaker 1 (32:34):
But I think the reason it's in quotes is because 

Speaker 2 (32:37):
They're, they were being sarcastic. They 

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Were like, how are you? 

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Look at you. 

Speaker 1 (32:44):
But no, I think there's now reason to doubt maybe it actually came from there. So 

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Oh, no, 

Speaker 1 (32:49):
The lots of these, well, it might, for years we thought it was from here, but now we don't know, blah, 

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Blah, blah, blah, blah. Interesting. 

Speaker 1 (32:55):
But that stuff's not that interesting, actually. So let's look at the piece. 

Speaker 3 (32:59):
This piece is wonderful. When I walked in, it literally took my breath away. Well, it's enormous and just extremely lovely. 

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah. I mean, I'm glad you said it's enormous because that's a lot of times people are afraid to say the obvious thing about works. No, that wasn't a day. I realize that's not 

Speaker 3 (33:13):
Kind of shady. 

Speaker 1 (33:16):
But yeah, it is really big. And that's an important part of an artwork is scale and how that affects you. Just like we're talking about how church architecture affects you, and it's the same with artwork. So yeah, it's like that says something different than if this piece fit comfortably on your countertop. Right? 

Speaker 3 (33:30):
Totally. Yeah. They 

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Would be doing very different things that could be lovely, but it would be this thing that you would have a more kind of personal, intimate relationship, 

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Subtle feeling. 

Speaker 2 (33:39):
Why did they design it with, are these doors that are on the H hinges? 

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, those are doors. There's a hinge close. And actually, why don't we do this right now. Touch it. 

Speaker 3 (33:49):
We can close. No, 

Speaker 1 (33:50):
You can't touch them, but we can get up and you can actually, we can walk around to the back and you can see, because those doors close, you can see. Yeah, 

Speaker 3 (33:57):
I looked at this earlier. What's 

Speaker 2 (33:58):
On the front of them? 

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah. So 

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Do you know how big a church this was put in by chance? 

Speaker 1 (34:02):
I don't, because I think we're not totally sure 

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Where it came from. 

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, right, exactly. The whole tenia and sarcastic tenia. This is 

Speaker 3 (34:10):
Kind of chilling actually. 

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah. So this is not too uncommon when things are sort of, especially around the Renaissance, when they paint things to look kind of like sculpture. 

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, she's supposed to look like a statue, right? 

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah. This is 

Speaker 3 (34:23):
A colorless figure we're looking at. But she has a halo almost 

Speaker 2 (34:25):
S tone. 

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, that's Mary. Oh, 

Speaker 3 (34:27):
It's Mary. 

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah. So on the other side, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, should be an angel. This is supposed to be like the annunciation. Oh, 

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yes. Okay. 

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah. So we have an angel here, 

Speaker 3 (34:38):
And this is the moment when he tells Mary, you're going to birth Jesus. 

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yes. He's 

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Giving him the peace signs. He's like, hang 

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Loose. 

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah. He's saying like, keep it chill, Mary. 

Speaker 3 (34:48):
Stay chill. Calm down. That's fascinating. I wonder why they depicted those as statues rather than just real people. 

Speaker 1 (34:54):
I think a lot of times, especially when these things are closed, there was almost like you would paint them to look like statues or something. Just almost to, 

Speaker 3 (35:02):
It's 

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Kind of like a fake out 

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Trump ole. Is that the wrong Trump? Trump lo, yeah. Of, 

Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah. Kind of Trump loy 

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Effect. Like, oh, what if there were statues in this place? Trump, Lloyd, what's it called? Trump and Lloyd Baby. I 

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Just want to be included. 

Speaker 3 (35:14):
2020. 

Speaker 1 (35:15):
But yeah, so one of the things I've read about it is that, and I don't know if I totally buy this, but this is our party line, is that one side is supposed to represent maybe the more spiritual side. One side is supposed to represent the more physical, and then the middle is sort of the coming together of the two. And that extends to the outside with on one side, the angel on the other. So I don't personally know. 

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah, because it's not chronological necessarily 

Speaker 1 (35:43):
According to that this 

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Kind of is. 

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, no, it's definitely not chronological. I think that's part of maybe why they believe there's some other sort of order to it that you would put Adam and Eve on this side, Isaac and Abraham on the other side. But I don't mean, man, according to that logic, Isaac and Abraham is a more spiritual story than a physical story. And I feel like your dad trying to kill you is pretty physical. 

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (36:11):
So 

Speaker 3 (36:11):
Yeah. I don't know if I buy that. 

Speaker 1 (36:14):
I don't know either. But that's sort of the belief. What we at some point decided why this stuff was organized. 

Speaker 2 (36:22):
The geography of his body is wicked me out. The way he's turned 

Speaker 1 (36:26):
It is, oh, he's a fed real weird anatomy. It's not right. Can I even, 

Speaker 2 (36:33):
No, I don't think, I mean, barely. 

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Caroline is now trying to use her microphone as a So 

Speaker 2 (36:41):
You're over here? Yeah. I'm like this. 

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (36:45):
This is an artist that did a podcast Dead 

Speaker 1 (36:46):
On podcast. Podcast. Yeah. You could do that in, if you could do that, you would have certainly a good career in the circus lined down for you. 

Speaker 3 (36:53):
I do really appreciate that. It extends up into these little extra arches. I think little panel think That's so neat. So on the left side, the tree of life goes up farther in a little extension on the right side, there's an angel holding the tip of Abraham's sword, which I did not know it was cannon. Just the tip, 

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Kevin. Oh, I'm sorry. 

Speaker 3 (37:14):
Not in this space. 

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Lemme get back to the 

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Front of Shirley. Gender 

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Fluid reds mascots. 

Speaker 1 (37:19):
See, that's where already you believe it's a sacred space, right? 

Speaker 3 (37:24):
So I don't know. That's 

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Both creative in cases of those little extensions. They're Easter eggs too. That kind of changed the narrative because on the left side there, it's the 

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Serpent, there's the 

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Serpent holding the apple's gives, it kind of illuminates the context of Adam and Eve. And in this, there's an angel holding it, whereas if you didn't see it, you just assume that was a weird cloud 

Speaker 3 (37:44):
Next. Well, it's the very earthly element, and then you get the weird, heavenly, strange parts. 

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Well, yeah, and if you kind of just saw the bottom of the atom and eve panel, you could just see the bottom of the snake as just part of the tree. 

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Right? Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (37:58):
You could maybe not notice it until you see the top. And it's a way of, yeah, it's this next part of the story. They know you're going to look at the big part first and the little part second. So it's a way of communicating narrative and time, which I always think is really fun. Whenever you put multiple images together, it creates time 

Speaker 3 (38:19):
No 

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Matter what it is, which is really fascinating. We had this exhibit maybe a couple years ago, and there was this artist who made this series of photographs, and it was this huge grid on the wall, and they were all photographs taken at the exact same moment. 

Speaker 2 (38:34):
She 

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Had rigged this crazy system up on a trigger. So there were pictures that were, some were black and white, some were color. They were kind of all different looking, but some of them were the same views of the same thing. Some were outside the window, and then some would be out on the street. And so you would start to make all these connections of like, oh, there's the taxi there, and then, oh, there's the taxi in the background of this image. Oh, 

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Wow. 

Speaker 1 (38:58):
And you would start to put it together, but it was really hard to process that. It was just the exact one moment that there was actually no time in it. Because interesting. Your sense of it was also, it immediately became kind of cinematic. It's hard for us not to think, 

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Assume there's a story of the taxi took her there and she went this place and Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (39:16):
That's awesome. So it's hard. Anytime you put, and I think it works even here where you put a bunch of images together, it becomes like we make connections between them. 

Speaker 3 (39:25):
Well, our instinct was like, how is this chronologically? Oh, it starts here and then it goes, yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (39:30):
You immediately picked up on like, well, this isn't totally chronological. Exactly. It's 

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Chronological on the way. A Quentin Tarantino movie is chronological. 

Speaker 1 (39:38):
It was like 

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Very beginning. This is the gospel. This is very New Testament. Then we're going back to Old Testament, and then there's some other stuff. Splicing. 

Speaker 3 (39:47):
I've been highbrow up to this point. 

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Oh boy. And I want 

Speaker 3 (39:50):
To go lowbrow. 

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Oh, you've been in highbrow to 

Speaker 3 (39:53):
This point? I have. Yeah. I've been at my best behavior, but these little feet up here crack me up so hard. 

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Oh, when there's an outskirt of Jesus going to heaven, they 

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Look. They just got spooked, like, whoa, whoa. 

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Get me out here. Yeah, you're right. Those are really funny. 

Speaker 3 (40:10):
So it's a crowd of people and they're looking up at someone who's ascending into heaven, but the rest of their body has been cut off guessing. It's the assumption feet 

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Funny. It's like the opposite of Monty Python. Huge foot. These are teeny tiny feet 

Speaker 3 (40:22):
And they're tiny. That's very funny. 

Speaker 1 (40:25):
So this guy in, do you know who this old dude is? 

Speaker 3 (40:29):
I was reading this earlier. That's Jerome 

Speaker 1 (40:31):
St. Jerome. Yes. 

Speaker 3 (40:32):
I don't know his story though. 

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Jerome. 

Speaker 1 (40:35):
What's really funny is I should know St. Jerome is really popular subject in art and interesting, and I should have probably at this point maybe paid more attention to is actual story. But all I can look at in all pictures of Saint Jerome is that he's always got really nice arms. So I always like 

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Drums jacked. 

Speaker 3 (40:51):
Was he like a man that lived in the wild 

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Or 

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Something? 

Speaker 3 (40:53):
He was okay. 

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (40:55):
He was 

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Saint 

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Jerome did some time in the wilderness, but we have a Saint Jerome around the corner that I always refer to as Grandpa Guns because he's just got really nice arms. 

Speaker 2 (41:07):
I'll fight you. 

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yeah. That's so 

Speaker 3 (41:09):
Interesting. I do like to see, now I'm paying attention to whose bodies this artist really paid attention to. And of course, Eve and Adam. 

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah. Eve had 

Speaker 3 (41:17):
These extremely smooth You come 

Speaker 2 (41:19):
His abs. 

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah. Eve has that kind of weird anatomy that a lot of artists give women. 

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Their chest is always so wackadoo and I don't understand. 

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Oh yeah, maybe 

Speaker 3 (41:31):
I just never saw 'em. 

Speaker 1 (41:32):
I remember. Yeah. Sometimes people every once in a while criticize the Photoshopping culture and how it's unrealistic depiction of women's bodies especially, and I'm just like, I mean, true de to it's nothing new. We have been doing this forever. Well, 

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Also I think just a long time there just wasn't a good study on how to do it, and so that's why a lot of medieval painting looks comically bad. 

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Well, and something else to consider. And to be fair, this is what we would 1550s, this is the Renaissance, and this was made by Flemish artists who are pretty influenced by the Italian Renaissance. So you could kind of think they're a little bit behind the times too. So when you're coming out of medieval art where you have the classical period of Rome and Greece where everybody's really aware of how a body actually looks, and then the spiritual actually becomes really important, and we stop caring so much about what the physical looks like, so the bodies become a little more weird and elongated, and they're a little strange. So gothic art is 

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Like, and everyone looks like about 45 years old, even babies, 

Speaker 1 (42:42):
They all 

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Look so old. 

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah. We have lots of mean over, if you look at this round painting over there, we have a pretty weird looking baby. 

Speaker 2 (42:51):
I bet it's like 60. 

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah. I mean, it's not on the extreme side, but again, kind 

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Of a pear shape. 

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah. I think it's kind of coming out of that period of adult, little adult jesuses that 

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Reminds me of my cat. 

Speaker 1 (43:02):
But there's also a reason the 

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Whole frame or 

Speaker 1 (43:07):
The 

Speaker 3 (43:08):
Just the sheer bulk. 

Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (43:12):
I'm sorry, what were you saying? 

Speaker 1 (43:12):
I don't even remember. It'ss fine 

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Only coming out of a renaissance pieces, but 

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's a little bit of that going on too, where it's like the bodies are, people are just starting to actually worry about what a person looks like, and you can kind of see that here, where maybe they're 

Speaker 3 (43:28):
Like the proportions seem 

Speaker 1 (43:29):
About, right. Yeah, exactly. Because even I'm looking at his leg, and if you look it's 

Speaker 3 (43:33):
Crazy, 

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Look at his left leg, which imagine you kind of flipped him around and you stood him up. His left leg would be significantly longer than his right leg. 

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yeah. It's only 

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Slightly, it's like the original ready player one poster. That's interesting. 

Speaker 1 (43:48):
But the leg 

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Is just way too long. That's right. Come on, Spielberg. 

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yes. And I think it's because the artist sort of lined the knees up and was not necessarily 

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Not thinking that should be shortened. 

Speaker 1 (43:59):
It should be pushed back into space a little bit, which would make it a little bit higher. So it gives the illusion of, and again, when we think about perspective in these ways, these were things that came about in the Renaissance. So 

Speaker 3 (44:10):
Let's 

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Cut him a break. They're still figuring it. 

Speaker 3 (44:12):
You know what? He's trying his best still better than anything I can make. I'll hand it to him. 

Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (44:17):
No, I got Ms. Pain. 

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Do some 

Speaker 3 (44:19):
Stuff. You think you get a little talent. 

Speaker 2 (44:21):
I don't want to toot my own horn here. Kevin starts fixing it 

Speaker 3 (44:24):
With a pen. 

Speaker 1 (44:28):
I've walked by this piece a lot, but also I'm just now picking up on the palette of how the artist also uses really warm colors on all the bodies and in the foreground, and then the background is like it's 

Speaker 3 (44:39):
All this green blue. 

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah. So he's using that to make, and I'm saying this piece was actually probably made by a whole studio of people, including the artist's daughter. So we should also say there were ladies painting probably worked on this as well, we believe. But yeah, the background, it helps that recede into space and we get this distance effect. That's pretty cool too in 

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Time. Nice. Like you mentioned earlier. 

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's something else that warm colors always sort our eye wants to pull them forward usually. 

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Oh, interesting. 

Speaker 1 (45:08):
So it's like good color theory, guys. 

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Oh, I love color theory. 

Speaker 3 (45:13):
They knew what they were doing. 

Speaker 2 (45:15):
It is so interesting to see even that it's almost like there is nothing new under the sun and certain trends 

Speaker 3 (45:23):
In 

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Movie posters where you can see diagrams and infographics of here's all the posters I use orange and blue, and those foundational tones that are always meant to be eye-popping. Still persist even back then. 

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah. Do you remember, I just remember walking by the Crimson Peak posters that had that really crazy red and blue, and it was like that effect totally turned up to where it was almost crazy. The red, 

Speaker 3 (45:53):
It kind of hurts your eyes. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (45:54):
It's vibrating. 

Speaker 3 (45:55):
That's a purpose, right? 

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Yeah. And it makes this weird effect that it's 

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Jars your eyes, which is perfect for that show. That makes sense. Right. Good. Graphic designer. I feel like the unsung hero though, of all this is the carving, the wooden carving around all of this painting is 

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Very 

Speaker 3 (46:11):
Extraordinary. I mean, look at all the fruit and the faces, and then there's different figures on each one of these things. 

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Look at all the little baby heads that could come 

Speaker 3 (46:21):
To life as the museum was haunted. 

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, the little cherubs. 

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Oh yeah. The had 

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Sparing coats of arms. The door at the top there. 

Speaker 3 (46:30):
Kill me. 

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Kill me. Well, actually, when I've walked through this gallery at night and the lights are completely off fuel thing, sorry. Sorry. That wasn't why I was setting this up. 

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Wait, what's the scariest thing when the lights are off in here? 

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Oh gosh. Is 

Speaker 3 (46:46):
It that mummy thing over there? 

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah. We can walk over here. Oh, 

Speaker 3 (46:50):
We can. This 

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Space is actually kind of scary with the lights on 

Speaker 3 (46:55):
And it's empty right now for the listener. We are alone. 

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Oh God. Oh my God. 

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Ooh. Yeah. So 

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Oh, that's so cold. 

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (47:08):
Wow. 

Speaker 1 (47:09):
So we're in the San Blio Chapel. Oh my 

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Gosh. 

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Right now, these are murals that were taken from this chapel in Spain. 

Speaker 3 (47:20):
How much of this wall is original? 

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Most none of it. Most just whatever's behind the plexi, 

Speaker 3 (47:26):
The plastic was what was transported. 

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah. That's the real stuff. The rest is just kind of built in. Yeah. It's 

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Still spooky. 

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yeah. Setting the stage. 

Speaker 3 (47:35):
This is very chilling, 

Speaker 1 (47:36):
But this is one of the spaces some of our guards say they've seen like, 

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Nope. 

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Okay. You don't want to know. No, 

Speaker 2 (47:41):
I want to hear. I want to hear. I want to hear. 

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Okay. So they've heard, Caroline has left the chapel 

Speaker 2 (47:48):
And I have two microphones. Now. What have they seen in here? I'm curious. 

Speaker 1 (47:56):
They say they've seen a figure that a hooded figure float up from here and then float through the room. 

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Wow. Yeah. So he said to repeat 

Speaker 3 (48:11):
That would 

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Be very scary. The specificity of that is 

Speaker 3 (48:15):
Kind of like a night at the museum 

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Situation, but what's exposed? Yeah. I think this gallery has always been sort of up there, is just kind of spooky, 

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Scary, 

Speaker 1 (48:22):
All on its own feel. 

Speaker 2 (48:24):
These faces, and again, I literally know nothing about art, but some of these faces are of that, of if you stared at one of them, like this guy right here, if you star this long, imagine if he started 

Speaker 3 (48:37):
Looking at you. Yeah. I feel 

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Like he would if I stared at long enough, that guy is looking at me. 

Speaker 1 (48:42):
This one you're looking at. Oh man, Jorge Ila, Saint preaching and everyone's eyes are super dark and kind of lifeless foolish. 

Speaker 3 (48:51):
You have Play-Doh faces. 

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah. I don't know. So yeah, they've got some creepy eyes. Just colorful 

Speaker 3 (48:57):
Though. 

Speaker 1 (48:57):
It's in that weird thing wearing a movie now when somebody becomes possessed and their eyes just turn all black. It's kind like 

Speaker 3 (49:03):
That. There's almost no whites. 

Speaker 1 (49:05):
It's 

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Like a 

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Hoard chop. This one I've always loved and I feel like I don't talk about it because it's 

Speaker 3 (49:08):
Just this statue. 

Speaker 1 (49:09):
No, no. The one next to it. 

Speaker 3 (49:10):
Oh this. Oh, this is Amazing's 

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Angels beating other bad angels down into hell. 

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Pushing them down into a pile of demons who have little scratchers. 

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Gosh, I love this so much. This thing is 

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Amazing. 

Speaker 1 (49:24):
The one I really love is this angel right here where there's two steps. Oh yeah, 

Speaker 3 (49:27):
With the fro. 

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah. It almost looks like he was wearing a wig that's falling off. 

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Yeah. I was trying to figure out what the artist is trying to say that his hair 

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Got 

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Whooshed as seems dropping down or something. 

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Yeah. I mean, I think that's the idea, but it's super strange. 

Speaker 3 (49:41):
I think it's fascinating the choice they made of all the angels are uniform, but all the demons get a different color. 

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Oh. What do you think that's saying? I don't 

Speaker 3 (49:49):
Know. Saying that 

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Our sin makes us unique, 

Speaker 3 (49:50):
That being diverse is bad. Oh, no. Diversity is bad. 

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Diversity is ruining. It is anti, it's definitely, it's definitely with action painting. 

Speaker 1 (50:00):
I would say this probably falls into your church's white Jesus territory of all the angels are definitely blonde. 

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Totally. 

Speaker 1 (50:10):
There's probably, do 

Speaker 2 (50:12):
You think this is sincerely racialized? 

Speaker 1 (50:14):
I actually, I would say there's a very good chance because that's a thing that happens a lot and especially works around this time, is you have a lot of anti-Semitic images that 

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Happen, 

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Especially in demons and things, and that's awful sinners. So I would not be surprised if there was some antisemitism going on in those demons. 

Speaker 3 (50:34):
I like that. This guy's like what? We don't have room. Whatcha 

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Doing? No. When was this happening? Can I come in? 

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Yeah. I'm having a good 

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Time. This is amazing. I'm trying to figure out, is this the ocean or is that just the heavenly, I 

Speaker 1 (50:49):
Think it's sort of, yeah, the heavenly barrier barrier. 

Speaker 2 (50:51):
It's thrown here. Heavenly plane. 

Speaker 3 (50:52):
No, this guy. This is the back of this guy's head. This isn't his hair. This is his head. 

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Caroline, you've cracked it wide open. Wow. 

Speaker 2 (51:02):
I've been looking at this baby probably. I always 

Speaker 3 (51:04):
Thought, yeah, no, he's falling forward. This is a throne that he's falling out 

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Of. Yes, yes, yes. So, oh my God, I have been looking at this and so confused by that dude's hair. That's so funny. For years. Do 

Speaker 2 (51:15):
We win the painting? Do we get to take it home? 

Speaker 1 (51:17):
That's how it works, guys. Do we? I'm scared to even get close. Oh, wow. Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (51:22):
This is really cool. The more I look at this, the more this is my favorite painting. Wow. 

Speaker 1 (51:27):
I always walk by it so complex and I feel like it's one of those things that, again, I probably don't talk with the public a lot because I feel like when you talk about religious art, we also have this tendency to not, it's actually probably not too different than what you're trying to do a lot of time of please everybody. Right? It's tough. Yeah. You don't want to offend anyone on any side of anything purposely. And it's also, it just feels like talking about hell is always a real tricky situation. 

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Oh, absolutely. 

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Right. So it's a weird thing where, but I'm really fascinated by it because it's also like, well, this is the cool part. There's monsters. 

Speaker 2 (52:04):
But I do feel like in relating the two things, even in doing something as silly as our podcast and something as interesting as this piece of art, that if you do communicate in a way that literally offends nobody, that isn't not anyone's cup of tea, 

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Then 

Speaker 2 (52:21):
It might just be 

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Nothing. 

Speaker 2 (52:23):
It might be soland to the point that it's nothing and watered down yet. So in some ways interesting art with a perspective might always incite detractors. 

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Absolutely. 

Speaker 2 (52:31):
In that sense. 

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a point where you go, well, we can't make everyone happy. Yeah. You just kind of have to 

Speaker 2 (52:36):
That's, and that's almost like confirmation. 

Speaker 3 (52:39):
This one lost his rope and his wings turned black. 

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Oh, 

Speaker 3 (52:43):
What happened with him? 

Speaker 1 (52:44):
That's interesting. Actually, you know what? Now that you say that all, we're talking about the uniformity of the angels, but now I'm looking, they all do 

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Have dll, have different 

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Wings, different colored wings. 

Speaker 3 (52:51):
Yeah. There's only one with 

Speaker 2 (52:52):
White wings. This is a back scratcher. 

Speaker 3 (52:53):
Yeah. He's just trying to 

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Make him feel comfortable. Hey man. Hey. It's a hazing. 

Speaker 1 (52:57):
It's a fun hazing. It looks like you've had a rough day. Oh boy. 

Speaker 3 (53:05):
Well thank you for having us. 

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Thank you so much for having 

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Us. This is so fun. Quite a dream come true actually. 

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Well, thank, come to 

Speaker 3 (53:10):
An art museum at Hello 

Speaker 2 (53:12):
And no one's there. 

Speaker 3 (53:13):
And then have everyone 

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Listen 

Speaker 3 (53:14):
To my opinion. 

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Love it. Well, thank you guys. It's been super fun. So I hope you can come back sometime. Me so too, when we're actually open, you can actually look at more things. I want to see everything. 

Speaker 2 (53:23):
We can go in the haunted rooms. I 

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Know they'll let you in when we're open. 

Speaker 4 (53:29):
Fantastic. 

Speaker 1 (53:29):
Well, thanks so much. Thank 

Speaker 4 (53:30):
You. Thank you. 

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free Parking. I mentioned a photographer earlier who was featured in Eyes on the Street, and that was Barbara Propst. The special exhibitions on view right now are William Kentridge. More Sweetly Play the Dance and Ragnar Denson the visitors and scenes from Western culture and opening April 20th is Terracotta Army Legacy of the First Emperor of China. Come make recycled art at our artist workshop on April 21st at 1:00 PM Artists of all ages over six can join us and members receive a 50% discount on this program. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Efron iCal by Balal. And as always, please rate and review us on iTunes. I'm Russell Eig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.