Speaker 1 (00:00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace 

Speaker 2 (00:00:02):
Race is very much an experience. I mean, more than it is a biological fact. It's an experience. 

Speaker 1 (00:00:21):
Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is artist and designer, Kate Tepe. When did you start working at Artworks? When did that happen? 

Speaker 2 (00:00:51):
So that happened over the summer. 

Speaker 1 (00:00:53):
Okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:00:53):
Yeah. Actually, I was introduced through artworks, I think the same way that I was introduced to you guys. So I had my offline dating game. 

Speaker 1 (00:01:05):
Oh, right, right. 

Speaker 2 (00:01:06):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:01:06):
Describe that a little bit actually, just 

Speaker 2 (00:01:08):
How 

Speaker 1 (00:01:08):
That works. 

Speaker 2 (00:01:09):
So it was this fun thing that I put together because my friends and I were trying to have a show, an art show a month. And so I put this together thinking it would just be a fun thing to do. It's a card game that uses a dice. So there's six categories, and then you roll the dice, and the idea is to throw people into intimacy, strangers into intimacy. So the cards used online sort of actions or tropes or whatever you want to call them. And then on the other side of the card, there would be an inappropriate question for a first meeting. 

Speaker 1 (00:01:53):
So an example, if I was playing, what would be something I would get? 

Speaker 2 (00:01:58):
So one question might be, how much money do you make in a year? Another question might be 

Speaker 1 (00:02:04):
That's very intimate right 

Speaker 2 (00:02:05):
Away. That is a very intimate 

Speaker 1 (00:02:06):
Question. Something people definitely do not like to talk about. 

Speaker 2 (00:02:09):
Yeah, they don't want to talk about money. Another question might be your thoughts on Barack Obama at the time he was the president. There might be questions on what do you think about institutionalized racism? And so it's not so much that you have this brilliant thing to say, but it might expose that you have nothing to say. 

Speaker 1 (00:02:32):
Right. 

Speaker 2 (00:02:32):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:02:33):
That's actually really interesting too as a dating thing, because those are probably the exact things people would not talk about on a date 

Speaker 2 (00:02:42):
Exactly 

Speaker 1 (00:02:43):
The first time. So it's actually really, really smart because it's like you're going to show somebody's true colors really quickly 

Speaker 2 (00:02:49):
Immediately. 

Speaker 2 (00:02:51):
And I think in some ways it's kind of the stuff that matters in a weird way. I think now at this point, everybody has sort of been exposed to or tried online dating, and the profiles at this point are just kind of a joke. You've got your cheesy profile name and then your pictures, your sweet of pictures, if you will. And then your cheesy tagline, and then you're like, I like coffee books trader. And it's like everybody has the same thing, so it's not really telling you anything about anybody. So I just thought it would be fun to try to get people into a room and there's really no rules. So I would hope that that helps. And I think it did. So I did this game a couple of different places. I did it in this warehouse, I think it was actually Michael Steel's studio. And then I did it for the C a C as a summer performance, and then I was doing a creative morning about it. And so I think that's where I met some of the folks from your team. And then I also met some folks from Artworks. And I think as everybody sort of does in these circles, you meet people that you think are really interesting and cool, and then you kind of keep them in your back pocket. I know there's going to be some really cool time to collaborate. 

Speaker 2 (00:04:25):
And so that's what happened. So now we're sort of taking that game and that concept, and we're going to use it to try to make strangers friends, but on more of an adolescent sort of under age appropriate for children. So it's not going to be an offline dating game, but it's going to be about how do we reduce mental health stigma. So this game is how I got introduced to artworks. 

Speaker 1 (00:04:56):
Okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:04:58):
So roundabout. But now also I'm just working as sort of their graphic designer as they sort of go through exploring how to tell the story better their story and how to possibly rebrand and rebuild the website. So a lot of fun stuff going on, a lot of change. I don't know. We'll see. 

Speaker 1 (00:05:20):
But I think it's interesting that you kind of threw that in there. Oh, and I do graphic design, but I actually think, I don't know, I don't separate that from what your art is in a way, because it seems like your art is very much about design as well, and more about even designing systems. It just, it's a very different thing than a person who's like, well, I go into the studio and 

Speaker 2 (00:05:45):
I shut the 

Speaker 1 (00:05:46):
Door and the emotions take over me and I 

Speaker 2 (00:05:49):
Paint. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:05:50):
I 

Speaker 2 (00:05:50):
Can't do that. 

Speaker 1 (00:05:52):
So it's like your ideas of what you want art to be for you, or your particular art is much more controlled. And it seems very connected to design. To me. 

Speaker 2 (00:06:09):
It's really hard to describe what I do because I mean partially because I don't really know. I just kind of do things 

Speaker 1 (00:06:16):
That 

Speaker 2 (00:06:16):
Seem interesting to me. But also I have this pet peeve within the art slash design communities. People want to act like what they do, that these things aren't interconnected or they're not related. And so in my opinion, I mean, they're so interconnected. I mean, they're twins. So one of the first sort of things that exposed me to art was an art history class, and it kind of clicked in my mind that all these artifacts that we make, whether it's art or a chair or I don't know, crown molding, 

Speaker 2 (00:07:03):
They tell this story of who we have been and we as everybody, because making these things constantly. So when I think of it that way, it's like we're all doing these things for the same reasons, whether it's designing a chair or making a painting, you're trying to communicate something. And because we are makers and we live within a Z ice, there's a personal story for sure. But then there's also the story of what's happening. It's like we're all slices of a tree and you're just sort of reading the tree rings, so whether we intend to or not. So yeah, my background, I started off thinking I was going to be a fashion designer and I was going to be really fancy and live in New York and make things and I don't know. And then when 

Speaker 1 (00:08:03):
Did you stop wanting to be a fashion designer? 

Speaker 2 (00:08:06):
I got so burnt out in school. I did it and I loved it, and I had so much fun. And then I graduated, and the thought of taking two pieces of fabric and sewing them together just made me want to vomit. So I just drew figures for a while and worked retail. I wasn't totally sure. I still love clothes and I love the performance of getting dressed. I think that's why I love drag. I mean, RuPaul always talks about how everything is drag. We're all doing drag 

Speaker 1 (00:08:42):
All the time. You're born naked and then everything else is drag. Right? 

Speaker 2 (00:08:44):
Yeah, that's what he said. And I totally agree with that. And so I find the ensembles that people decide for themselves to be really interesting. So I'm still interested in that, but now I can't. I always want to make, I'll sit here and I'll think to myself, oh, you can just design something. I can't do it. It's done. So I like to draw and I like to sort of be creative and imaginative, and I'll make these figures and these sort of illustrations exist. But I think the art that I'm most interested in exploring, and I mean, to be honest, I don't even know if this is really art, but we'll call it art, is this bringing people together into these sort of environments where you're taking people and you're just forcing them into intimacy. And especially now I go through periods where I really wonder, is this interesting or is it useful? Or is it art? I don't know. But now everybody just feels so divided and it just feels like we're all sort of struggling with how to communicate with each other. So now it feels like, well, this is the best time to do it. 

Speaker 2 (00:10:12):
When has there ever been a moment where you're going to have this kind of challenge? 

Speaker 1 (00:10:16):
Well, you brought a little kind of a zine with you 

Speaker 2 (00:10:20):
That 

Speaker 1 (00:10:20):
You made. And again, just kind thinking about how you're using design. And again, a place where design and art sort of get blurred a little bit. Because this to me is, it's like I would say this is an artwork. I mean, do you think of it that way? This book, by the way, I'm not describing it very well. So it's called Nose. 

Speaker 2 (00:10:43):
Yeah. So it sort of like a visual essay slash art book. So I made it as a part of my thesis years ago, and now I'm trying to blow it out. So if anybody has some money or wants to place an order, 

Speaker 1 (00:11:04):
It's got pictures of noses, you said from art history. 

Speaker 2 (00:11:07):
So I just went to a library. Those are the best places on the planet and just started grabbing books off shelves and photocopying noses or faces I guess, that people made. And I was really interested in how cultures all around the world interpret their own faces. And I think where you really sort of see ethnicity or cultural heritage is in the nose, 

Speaker 2 (00:11:41):
And you can see noses change through the introduction of maybe colonialism or imperialism or maybe even just trade things start to look different. So I just made a circle around the nose, and it's just a book with a whole bunch of noses. And then because we're also living in this age where we just have access to all the things at our fingertips, got on Google, started searching nose and extracting sentences that had that word nose in them and paired the random sentences with the pictures. And in my opinion, it's pretty interesting. I don't think people really think about noses mean. You might think, oh, Michael Jackson. I think that's what everybody thinks of when you start talking about a nose and change, 

Speaker 1 (00:12:38):
It seems, I mean, it's interesting. I think this is also, I'm guessing this is maybe one of those racially charged things that 

Speaker 2 (00:12:46):
Totally, 

Speaker 1 (00:12:49):
I guess I'm going to speak as a white person. I feel like if you brought this to me and said, nos, this is decidedly, this is obviously political. I would be like, it is. But I think for you, it is 

Speaker 2 (00:13:08):
Right away 

Speaker 1 (00:13:09):
You see that, and it's a really loaded idea. 

Speaker 2 (00:13:11):
It's super loaded right 

Speaker 1 (00:13:13):
Off the bat where for me, after a second, I realized why it is, 

Speaker 2 (00:13:17):
But 

Speaker 1 (00:13:18):
It doesn't have that kind of immediate thing. And it's because it's one of those things that I just simply have not thought about a lot of my, yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:13:27):
Well, I mean, you have a great nose. 

Speaker 1 (00:13:31):
That was what all this was up to was to get a compliment on my nose. 

Speaker 2 (00:13:35):
I mean, you have a great nose as a white person and as not a white person, you have a great nose. 

Speaker 1 (00:13:41):
But that's such a silly thing because it's like, obviously that's just, again, based on an ideal that is set up by all of the stuff you're kind of talking about here. And the idea of why is one nose a prettier nose than another. Right. All of this is just, 

Speaker 2 (00:13:59):
Well just 

Speaker 1 (00:14:00):
Made up 

Speaker 2 (00:14:01):
Just to defend my position. I think you have a great nose. It's obviously symmetrical. You have a strong bridge. There's some great curves in there. 

Speaker 1 (00:14:12):
Thanks. 

Speaker 2 (00:14:12):
You're very welcome. Yeah, I mean, when you look, there was a period there where we had this thing called race science where people tried to look at people's appearance and they tried to turn that appearance into some sort of science as it relates to character. So I could look at your face and I could look at the lines, and then I could scientifically determine who you were as a person, because genetics and race, this, trying to prove that genetics and race were, 

Speaker 1 (00:14:51):
Yeah, probably you're talking about the same time period of phonology and studying the shape of the skull. Absolutely. And using that as well, obviously, because their skull is shaped like this, they're a criminal. 

Speaker 2 (00:15:03):
And even the introduction of the iq, because a lot of American scientists encouraged a lot of the eugenics that were used across the world. And so there was this whole thing about nose shape as it related to Jewish and Yiddish populations. And so if you had a certain shaped nose, you were obviously shifty character 

Speaker 1 (00:15:29):
And 

Speaker 2 (00:15:29):
Also probably Jewish. And so we had to watch out for those people. And so I think that more than we assume, the nose has been a really important sort of a visual indicator for at least recent human history. And so I'm kind of interested in exploring that. And I was also sort of interested in exploring how we sort of fetishize human anatomy without immediately making it sexual, which is kind of hard to do as a woman, but I could explore my own nose as a biracial woman and not immediately sort of talk about the consequences of sex in terms of social systems. So it became this interest that I had. But I guess noses are kind of gendered in a way. I mean, if you're a woman, you're supposed to have a very delicate, petite nose. You're not supposed to have some big old 

Speaker 1 (00:16:40):
Yeah, I guess, yeah. Mean, that's a good point. It's kind of a tricky one, sort of gendered, but in relativity or something. Totally. You're not, and actually, when I'm looking at these noses just off by themselves, it's a little bit hard. You wouldn't necessarily know gender right 

Speaker 2 (00:17:01):
Off the 

Speaker 1 (00:17:02):
Bat. I mean, some of them I would suspect. Okay, I can see maybe a hint of mustache here, so I'm going to go ahead and guess that's a man. But this one at the end, I couldn't really tell, especially subtracted, it's like without the rest of the face, it's a little bit hard to know how it lies in proportion with everything else. So that's 

Speaker 2 (00:17:22):
Usually 

Speaker 1 (00:17:22):
Where I guess the gendering comes in. It's like, okay, well, a man generally has a slightly bigger nose in relationship to the rest of his face, I guess, which 

Speaker 2 (00:17:34):
Is an assumption. It's 

Speaker 1 (00:17:38):
A general, a generality. That's not necessarily true. But I'm always interested in these edges because we tend to think of them as really, and I guess you're kind of into this as well, just as we've been talking about the idea of art and design and everything, we think of these edges of things as really solid. And it really even comes back to the museum in a way too, because we talk about sort of genres of art a lot of times, and 

Speaker 2 (00:18:09):
People 

Speaker 1 (00:18:09):
Think of them as really rock solid or time periods and 

Speaker 2 (00:18:13):
Stuff, but they breathe, 

Speaker 1 (00:18:14):
Right. It's not like the renaissance was over one day 

Speaker 2 (00:18:18):
Or 

Speaker 1 (00:18:18):
That it started one day, or 

Speaker 2 (00:18:20):
That we don't still talk about the Renaissance. I mean, Caravaggio continues to influence, I think about photography and Vogue Magazine where you've got this dark background and this blindingly white lit covered in oil model or whatever. I mean, that speaks to that. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:18:41):
Yeah, totally. It's like everybody's still being influenced by those things, and it's like, yeah, that's another good point too, that the idea of history is being completely linear where, well, this leads to, this leads to this, leads to this, leads to this. And instead it's like, yeah, things are constantly circling back and pulling back from the past. And it's all, it's all a lot messier than we really tend to think 

Speaker 2 (00:19:04):
About 

Speaker 1 (00:19:05):
It. 

Speaker 2 (00:19:05):
I mean, that's something that I really enjoy about some discussions in contemporary art is that there sort of seems to be this dialogue that art is having with itself. And I know some people kind of hate that, but I find it to be really fascinating because art, as it relates to the Western world, I think one could very much argue that it's a system that's used to control visual language. When you think of perspective, it's like perspective is a tool that's used to define high art. So if you're from a culture that doesn't use perspective the way that it's used in Western art, immediately, any sort of visual representation that you make is not, cannot, and will never be considered high art. 

Speaker 1 (00:19:59):
Well, you're kind of talking about there the idea of quality is kind of oppression, right? 

Speaker 2 (00:20:05):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:20:06):
The idea that it 

Speaker 2 (00:20:07):
Has to be good, 

Speaker 1 (00:20:10):
But that it's one person's concept of what is the standard is usually has some gates to it, and that there's a gatekeeper to that. And that traditionally it's been the idea of an academy or something that, okay, well, you need this training to be this good. And of course to get that training, you need money or you need to be of a certain race or gender or something to be a part of this group. And so, yeah, the idea of quality has often been a form of oppression and of like you're saying, to ignore other things that don't fit those ideas of quality as well. So it's like you look at something and say, well, this looks different. And I talked a little bit about this in a past episode when we were talking about, I think folk art too, because I think that's a thing that folk art is why I think folk art is so interesting is because it kind of subverts that idea of quality. 

Speaker 2 (00:21:10):
Totally. 

Speaker 1 (00:21:10):
And I think it's a reason some people have a really hard time with folk art is because they come to this thing and they recognize right away, well, this doesn't look the way I expect art to look. 

Speaker 2 (00:21:20):
But 

Speaker 1 (00:21:21):
I dunno. To me, that's interesting. I'd rather come up. I'm always looking for the thing that defies my expectations. 

Speaker 2 (00:21:28):
Well, so when I was in college, one of the things I started to notice was I had this assumption in the African wings, for example, of museums. My assumption that I was coming into that space was that all these things behind the glass were old. My assumption was that these things were ancient and that they were ancient artifacts. And when I started to realize that a lot of these things were, I mean, not even older than my grandparents, maybe. I mean, it just totally, I was flabbergast. I was shook. If 

Speaker 1 (00:22:15):
Shook. Why was that shocking? 

Speaker 2 (00:22:19):
I think that, I mean, don't want to push my ignorance onto anybody else, but 

Speaker 1 (00:22:28):
No, I agree. I had the same kind of realization too at a certain point. And yeah, it's not like anyone was hiding that from me. It's just a simple, weird assumption. Although, 

Speaker 2 (00:22:39):
Well, but the assumption is that this continent is, there's no individual culture. It's just African. 

Speaker 1 (00:22:52):
Okay, I got you. You 

Speaker 2 (00:22:53):
Know what I'm saying? 

Speaker 1 (00:22:54):
Yeah. That's a big issue. Looking at the entire continent as 

Speaker 2 (00:22:58):
One building mean we have an entire building for two continents, and then we've got a room for a third continent that these two other continents would fit inside of. And then the other reason why I thought it was old is because there's no contemporary art. There is everything coming out of this continent looks like a wood mask with some grass sewn to it. And I'm not trying to be flippant, but I'm also being kind of flippant because there's a lot of incredible contemporary art being made all across Africa. South Africa has one of the best design fashion weeks in the world, rivals Paris. And there's no, you can go into African wings all across the country. There's no indication that anything is happening in the 20th century because it all looks like these ancient artifacts from a civilization long lost. But that stuff is not that old. 

Speaker 1 (00:24:02):
Yeah, no, most of ours are. If you look at in our African wing, which is really a room, you'll see that 

Speaker 2 (00:24:13):
I'm going to get you in trouble. I'm sorry. 

Speaker 1 (00:24:14):
No, I mean, no, I'm being real here. And for us too, I mean, I'm not trying to throw shade at the museum on this. It's also what has been collected. It's an issue of space collection and trying to represent what you have 

Speaker 2 (00:24:33):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:24:33):
Use the space you've got. But yeah, there's most of those things in that room, if you look are early 20th century or very late 19th century. And that's like, oh. And I think even if you look at how they're displayed and even the suggestion of the layout of the buildings and things, sometimes they're usually kept away from the things that are happening at the same time in 

Speaker 2 (00:25:08):
Europe 

Speaker 1 (00:25:09):
And North America. So I don't think I've ever been to a museum where one of those pieces that's from the late 19th century Africa is shown next to say, an impressionist painting that would've been made at the same time, 

Speaker 2 (00:25:24):
At the same time. 

Speaker 1 (00:25:26):
This hard 

Speaker 2 (00:25:27):
Sign at the same place when you have museums that will split their galleries up into time periods, you don't see that either. It's separate. 

Speaker 1 (00:25:35):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a weird thing of, I think about that all the time of, well, it would be a totally interesting way of organizing a museum as chronologically as opposed by region or time periods and regions, which is usually how it ends up being a little bit of weird mix of both. 

Speaker 2 (00:25:55):
So I was trying to look up an artist because there is a contemporary black artist who goes into museums and sort of rearranges the gallery, and I am blanking him on his name, which is terrible because I have used, I've quoted him. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:12):
Hold on. I think you've 

Speaker 2 (00:26:13):
Got it. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:14):
I've got it. One second in a book right outside this door. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:17):
Oh my gosh. Go get it. Okay. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:22):
Let's see. Fred Wilson. Yes. Alright. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:27):
I was going to guess Wilson. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:29):
Yeah, I remember this picture, and I was reading about this just the other day and looking at this, so I was like, I knew who you're talking about. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:39):
So this picture is from his exhibition mining the Museum in 1992. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:49):
So 

Speaker 2 (00:26:50):
These conversations have been going on for a while. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:54):
Well describe though what it is. We didn't actually talk about that. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:57):
Yeah. Okay. So this image that we're looking at here, this is a really good example. So he is taking what looks like mid or, I don't know, do you want to guess where those chairs are from? 

Speaker 1 (00:27:11):
I'm going to guess we're talking like 17 hundreds 

Speaker 2 (00:27:14):
Maybe, 

Speaker 1 (00:27:14):
Or Colonial America 

Speaker 2 (00:27:18):
To 

Speaker 1 (00:27:19):
Early founding of the country is my guess, just based on the context of a whipping post. 

Speaker 2 (00:27:25):
They kind of look like pre 

Speaker 1 (00:27:28):
Civil war, let's say. 

Speaker 2 (00:27:29):
Yeah. If you go and look at any of the dead president's homes, there's these chairs in there. So you got some of those chairs, and then he sort of pulled them so that they're sort of gathered around a whipping post so that people can come and watch. 

Speaker 1 (00:27:53):
Yeah. He's made sort of a little 

Speaker 2 (00:27:54):
Punish 

Speaker 1 (00:27:55):
Audience out of the chairs. 

Speaker 2 (00:27:57):
So I mean, he's obviously sort of having a conversation about the history of this country, but by using the artifacts in the museum, 

Speaker 1 (00:28:07):
And he's sort of taking something that would otherwise maybe not feel so loaded. The chair off by itself doesn't quite bear the same weight. But of course, in many instances, probably these people had enormous wealth because of slave labor. It only works when you are taking advantage of somebody. 

Speaker 2 (00:28:34):
Right? 

Speaker 1 (00:28:35):
Right. 

Speaker 2 (00:28:36):
And so I think that that's a great example of contemporary art that is having a conversation about art. And what I like about this, I think that for me, this sort of, when you try to have conversations about race, as I try to do often, one of the things I observe is what people can do is they can talk about their own experience, which is important and valid and is needed. We need to share our experiences because race is very much an experience. I mean, more than it is a biological fact. It's an experience. So those stories need to be told. But what Wilson's work to me illustrates is when you try to explain to somebody that hasn't felt what institutionalized racism is, 

Speaker 1 (00:29:28):
Wilson's 

Speaker 2 (00:29:28):
Work illustrates that. But I guess what I'm trying to say is there's not, I mean, aside from Wilson juxtaposing all these things together, there's no sort black art in that room, aside from his contemporary institutional critique, 

Speaker 1 (00:29:47):
His reframing of it, 

Speaker 2 (00:29:48):
His reframing of these things that have lived in the museum 

Speaker 1 (00:29:52):
Originally. So when I planned this day, I thought we would come and we would record, and we would be able to get out into the museum before 11 o'clock when it's open is now 1104. But my plan was bad anyway, because I forgot it was we Wednesday today, which starts at 10. So there were going to be tons of people out in the galleries. 

Speaker 2 (00:30:12):
That's awesome. No 

Speaker 1 (00:30:13):
Matter what. 

Speaker 2 (00:30:14):
Cool. 

Speaker 1 (00:30:14):
So because the museum is already open, I have an idea, which is we will go look at something that we couldn't possibly record in that space anyway, because it's way too loud. So you mentioned contemporary art from South Africa, and so we actually have something on view right now that is contemporary art from South Africa. So I thought we can go watch it, and then we can come back and talk about it. 

Speaker 2 (00:30:38):
That sounds amazing. 

Speaker 1 (00:30:39):
Okay, awesome. Yes, that we just got back from looking at watching William Kendra's video installation, more sweetly play the dance 

Speaker 2 (00:31:09):
We did. Yeah. So it's my understanding that piece has a little controversy around it. Is that true? 

Speaker 1 (00:31:18):
Well, you, 

Speaker 2 (00:31:19):
Or maybe not, maybe controversy is a little dramatic, but there's some discussion around the work. 

Speaker 1 (00:31:28):
I'm feeling slightly now because I was sort of notch. I had heard 

Speaker 2 (00:31:34):
Hard hitting questions with ttp. 

Speaker 1 (00:31:35):
I know this is, we're turning the tables now, you're asking me the hard questions. And I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I feel like we haven't heard too much from visitors. I think maybe somebody was upset with the racial representation of the piece and knowing that William Kentridge is white, which I'll admit, I didn't know that. I've never seen him. I didn't know his race. I don't know almost that because it is a piece that does feature mostly black Africans that, I don't know, maybe they saw it as some kind of appropriation, but I'm not sure if that is the big controversy around 

Speaker 2 (00:32:24):
The 

Speaker 1 (00:32:24):
Piece or if, I guess I wasn't. I'll admit I was slightly unaware of that being a huge controversy or even a controversy. So I'm ill prepared. But then again, I didn't know we were going to look at that today. Yeah, we just kind of hopped into it. 

Speaker 2 (00:32:41):
I mean, I will admit that is a piece that to me is just striking in its sort of execution. The music is interesting to listen to. The illustrative style is very interesting. 

Speaker 1 (00:33:00):
Well, the background is 

Speaker 2 (00:33:02):
Sort of 

Speaker 1 (00:33:02):
Drawn and changing in a way that if you haven't seen any of William Kendra's earlier works, that's sort of what kind of launched him into fame, 

Speaker 2 (00:33:15):
I guess, 

Speaker 1 (00:33:15):
With these animations that were drawn charcoal and sort 

Speaker 2 (00:33:20):
Of 

Speaker 1 (00:33:20):
Where you can see the traces of the old drawings still. So that's kind of there in the background 

Speaker 2 (00:33:27):
Still 

Speaker 1 (00:33:27):
Happening where there's kind of these sketchiness that's moving 

Speaker 2 (00:33:31):
And then 

Speaker 1 (00:33:31):
These sort of inky paired with 

Speaker 2 (00:33:32):
Dancers. 

Speaker 1 (00:33:33):
And then there's sort of these drawings of landscape and trees and things also. And then the dancers and the live action actors who walk through the scene are carrying also drawings of figures and different objects. 

Speaker 2 (00:33:51):
Sometimes 

Speaker 1 (00:33:53):
There's a lot to take in. 

Speaker 2 (00:33:54):
Yeah, I, and I don't really know much anything about the work or KenRidge One thing that popped into my mind the first time I saw it, and then also this time, so there's a scene where there are these illustrations of skeletons and then dancing skeletons. And then right after that, these people that look like patients, they look like they have IV bags. And it makes me think about how medical consent is a relatively new thing. 

Speaker 1 (00:34:37):
Well, and I've also interpreted that section of this piece to also relate to the AIDS crisis as well. Don't 

Speaker 2 (00:34:47):
That I feel foolish for not, 

Speaker 1 (00:34:49):
I don't know. I mean, again, I think all of these things, 

Speaker 2 (00:34:52):
It 

Speaker 1 (00:34:52):
Is a piece that is, I think very intentionally open to interpretation. So I don't 

Speaker 2 (00:34:56):
Think 

Speaker 1 (00:34:56):
You should feel guilty for getting something different out of it. I mean, 

Speaker 2 (00:34:59):
It 

Speaker 1 (00:35:00):
Is not a piece that is clearly about one thing or another. And I think it's meant to also be maybe kind of a piece that's about everything. It's a little bit of, it goes back and forth between jubilant to funerary. 

Speaker 2 (00:35:22):
Yeah. I mean, 

Speaker 1 (00:35:24):
That part where you're talking about with the patients is towards the end. And then I think there's a corpse being dragged 

Speaker 2 (00:35:31):
At 

Speaker 1 (00:35:31):
1.2. So yeah, it's at the same moment. We've had guys with tuba and stuff play. We have all this fun seemingly fun things and dancers and everything else happening. And then there's these darker images that are happening at the same time. And I think that's kind of the point. It's both a celebration and it is mournful and it's kind 

Speaker 2 (00:35:56):
Of 

Speaker 1 (00:35:56):
Everything. And 

Speaker 2 (00:35:57):
At 

Speaker 1 (00:35:57):
Once, 

Speaker 2 (00:35:58):
And it sort of ends with this ballerina dancing with an AK 47. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:36:05):
It's a crazy image, but it's really powerful of, 

Speaker 2 (00:36:08):
It's really powerful. 

Speaker 1 (00:36:10):
And she's wearing a red beret and 

Speaker 2 (00:36:12):
It's got 

Speaker 1 (00:36:12):
This kind of military vibe, but 

Speaker 2 (00:36:14):
Then 

Speaker 1 (00:36:14):
She's also graceful and beautiful. And so it is a piece about 

Speaker 2 (00:36:20):
Contradictions, which militaries usually are. 

Speaker 1 (00:36:22):
And that's true. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:23):
I mean, it's like what's more dapper than the uniforms? I mean, 

Speaker 1 (00:36:28):
Well, yeah, the presentation is a part of it that there is a power in the presentation of military. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:34):
So also on our way back up, we were having this conversation about, there's a semi-nude form, there's the ballerina, and there was a pregnant figure. I don't remember. The figure looked as if it was pregnant, but you couldn't see the head. There was nothing really gendered about that figure. So I mean, it could have 

Speaker 1 (00:36:58):
Been, which figure is this? 

Speaker 2 (00:37:01):
The figure was holding a big illustration, but I can't remember what the illustration was. And so there was just this sort of belly that looked like it was pregnant. 

Speaker 1 (00:37:12):
Was it a bathtub? 

Speaker 2 (00:37:13):
Yes, it was a bathtub. I'm pretty sure that's 

Speaker 1 (00:37:15):
Just a man with a big 

Speaker 2 (00:37:16):
Fat belly. Oh, it's not a pregnant person. I 

Speaker 1 (00:37:18):
Don't think so. 

Speaker 2 (00:37:19):
Well, I was totally wondering. I'm like, why is this pregnant woman carrying a bathtub got 

Speaker 1 (00:37:22):
Really big belly, and I am not sure. Now I have to go back. That's hilarious though, that you saw 

Speaker 2 (00:37:28):
Bathtub. I thought it was a pregnant figure. Well, I think 

Speaker 1 (00:37:30):
The head is blocked by the bathtub 

Speaker 2 (00:37:34):
That 

Speaker 1 (00:37:34):
He's carrying. So this is so funny that we have these two totally different 

Speaker 2 (00:37:38):
Reads of this. I totally thought, and I was having this thought about how women in labor, you're a vessel for this person, but then if you are not of a certain socioeconomic status, you're a vessel for a person, but also get to work. 

Speaker 1 (00:38:01):
Wow. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:02):
I mean, that person was carrying a huge bathtub. 

Speaker 1 (00:38:06):
Well, and in my mind, I just, again, because 

Speaker 2 (00:38:08):
Of bathtub, like a quad footed bathtub too. Right. 

Speaker 1 (00:38:10):
And I don't know if we were clear about this, they're carrying a drawing of a bathtub, but that's actually one of the things that's interesting about that is you do put the weight of a bathtub into that. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:24):
Yeah, I totally did. 

Speaker 1 (00:38:26):
You know, it's not a real bathtub, but you still think about it. It's a bathtub 

Speaker 2 (00:38:30):
And Well, and it was a large drawing too, so it's not like it was a small, 

Speaker 1 (00:38:34):
Right. It was light. It was to scale. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:36):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:38:37):
Yeah. It would be the size of an actual bathtub. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:39):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:38:40):
So yeah, it's funny because in my, I'll have to watch this again now 

Speaker 2 (00:38:43):
That that's so funny. Well, I was trying to figure out if that was just a man with a beer belly or 

Speaker 1 (00:38:52):
A 

Speaker 2 (00:38:52):
Woman, and then I just landed on woman because Kendra had to be aware that it looked like a pregnant woman. 

Speaker 1 (00:39:06):
I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (00:39:07):
Do you think there was an 

Speaker 1 (00:39:08):
I think it's a man. 

Speaker 2 (00:39:09):
Do you think it's a man? I think 

Speaker 1 (00:39:10):
It's a man. But 

Speaker 2 (00:39:12):
Could it be a pregnant man? 

Speaker 1 (00:39:14):
I guess maybe I am thinking, I 

Speaker 2 (00:39:19):
Mean, really. I don't know. 

Speaker 1 (00:39:22):
I don't know. That's so funny 

Speaker 2 (00:39:25):
Because all the silhouettes are pretty trim. I mean, they're not skeletal, but 

Speaker 1 (00:39:29):
Yeah, most of 'em it is. I mean, I 

Speaker 2 (00:39:31):
Definitely noticed think there's a conductor. In the beginning 

Speaker 1 (00:39:33):
I noticed the belly. I definitely thought about the belly this time when I watched it. And I think also, just going back to this, the way we give that bathtub actual weight, part of that is probably why I immediately assume it's a man is because to me, it seems like a big, burly blue collar dude with a potbelly carrying a bathtub. There's something about it that feels like almost like a plumber or something, or it kind of took me to that 

Speaker 2 (00:39:59):
World 

Speaker 1 (00:40:00):
Of, I guess 

Speaker 2 (00:40:00):
That would make 

Speaker 1 (00:40:01):
Sense. That's where my brain went. But hey, I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (00:40:06):
So what does that say about me? I am, 

Speaker 1 (00:40:08):
I don't know. I mean, you think about pregnancy more than I do, probably. It probably affects you more than it affects me in a real way. 

Speaker 2 (00:40:18):
And so then there's people that are in costume and then, yeah, it looked like on some of the dancers looked like they were sped up. Their movement seemed 

Speaker 1 (00:40:34):
Jerkier. That's one of the things that I noticed this time is the way time is manipulated. So I think if you first watch this piece, it's really, and I think the first time I watched this piece, I thought I was watching a group of people walking in reality 

Speaker 2 (00:40:52):
In a 

Speaker 1 (00:40:52):
Parade. And I think the more you watch it and the more you pay attention, you realize that that is also a manipulation of, I don't think all of these people are in the same space at the same time. Oh my gosh. And so you're looking at, there are groups that I think are together that are 

Speaker 2 (00:41:11):
Walking 

Speaker 1 (00:41:11):
Together, but then you'll notice that certain people maybe start out together and they end differently. And I think a lot of those people are filmed separately. And sometimes, I don't even know, are they actually even walking in real life? Are they fake walking? 

Speaker 2 (00:41:29):
Yeah. Are they on a treadmill? 

Speaker 1 (00:41:31):
Right. Maybe. And then the artist has decided at what pace 

Speaker 2 (00:41:36):
He wants 

Speaker 1 (00:41:36):
Them to move across these mini screens that take up the whole installation. And so you'll see them actually kind of overlapping each other. And that's one of the first times I picked up on like, oh, they're not in the same space. This is one recording of one person. And some 

Speaker 2 (00:41:53):
Of them drop off a little bit too. 

Speaker 1 (00:41:55):
Well. Interesting is that I think the way it ends is our ballerina with the gun is the only one I know of. And that whole, the people pulling her too, because she's on a cart. They're up until this point, we've watched people cross all screens and she's the last one, and she goes to the end, but she doesn't appear on the last screen Again. It's like it plays with our desire to complete the illusion. We've watched all these other people cross from screen to screen, and this is one big space, even though it's not perfect, we've watched them not cross Exactly Right. They get to one edge and then there's a little bit of a delay before they show up. And it's not perfect, which has even made me wonder, oh, these probably each are treated differently. There 

Speaker 2 (00:42:53):
Isn't an 

Speaker 1 (00:42:53):
Actual, this isn't actually one continuous thing. And I think there's even some repeating that happens 

Speaker 2 (00:42:59):
In 

Speaker 1 (00:42:59):
Emotions sometimes between some of the people we might be watching. Some of the same things happen across all of these screens, and our brains go, well, obviously this is new because it's in space. But yeah, this is all getting away from what you brought up, which is that time is also being manipulated because yeah, some of the dancers, I remember the ones that have sticks, 

Speaker 2 (00:43:26):
They're 

Speaker 1 (00:43:27):
Shaking really fast and 

Speaker 2 (00:43:28):
It 

Speaker 1 (00:43:29):
Doesn't seem possible. And then there's a person with a flag that's waving 

Speaker 2 (00:43:32):
A 

Speaker 1 (00:43:32):
Big red flag, 

Speaker 2 (00:43:34):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:43:34):
They're slowed down to make that, because I noticed that this time I was like, oh, this flag is going way slower than it 

Speaker 2 (00:43:40):
Would 

Speaker 1 (00:43:40):
If somebody was actually waving it. And so they've been dramatically slowed down so that we have this beautiful flag waving. 

Speaker 2 (00:43:50):
So sometimes when I make work, I have a meeting that I'll talk to people about and I'll say, oh yeah, my work is about this thing. And then there's things that I just don't tell anybody 

Speaker 1 (00:44:03):
About 

Speaker 2 (00:44:04):
That are my intentions or thoughts or whatever that went into the work. And I always wonder if other artists do this too. 

Speaker 1 (00:44:13):
Oh, absolutely. 

Speaker 2 (00:44:14):
I mean, I'm sure they do. But some of the things that you've described in listening to you to describe things, I wonder what were Kendra's secret meanings or impulses are the time. I mean, maybe it was just aesthetic or maybe what even started this piece. Sometimes the process is so much more interesting to me than the final product. And you can't get into somebody's brain, but I'm very much interested in why a ballerina, or did he know her? 

Speaker 1 (00:45:05):
It starts out with just the people and it feels pretty real. We're watching 

Speaker 2 (00:45:10):
A 

Speaker 1 (00:45:10):
Real parade. I mean, obviously we're not, because the background is drawn and everything is not real. But then it seems like those kind of manipulations get more and more as we go on. There's more animation that happens. There's a pair of gardening shears that are walking along in the parade. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:29):
That's right. 

Speaker 1 (00:45:32):
Then we get the animated characters, like the skeletons and the weird kind of that 

Speaker 2 (00:45:38):
Are dancing, 

Speaker 1 (00:45:39):
Dancing skeletons. And there's sort of this person, there's sort of made out of globe is how I interpreted 

Speaker 2 (00:45:47):
It. 

Speaker 1 (00:45:48):
Geometric shape 

Speaker 2 (00:45:50):
Gets more and more fanciful and isn't procession, 

Speaker 1 (00:45:53):
I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:54):
Or parade. I mean, I guess it's the same thing, but I 

Speaker 1 (00:45:57):
Think that's also kind of the point of the pieces that it's goals all seem all mixed up at times. It seems like military based. There are times it seems political. There's literally somebody giving a speech on a podium while two stenographers are 

Speaker 2 (00:46:14):
Behind. Right. 

Speaker 1 (00:46:16):
Typing out what they're saying. So yeah, it all feels like a jumble of all the different reasons we have these sort of parades and big events like this. So it's all kind of mixed up together. And I don't know if maybe that's the big point. I'm not sure. 

Speaker 2 (00:46:35):
Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's kind of nice to be curious. I mean, I guess maybe some people feel uncomfortable with that, but Well, 

Speaker 1 (00:46:45):
I feel like to me, this piece, if it was meant to be understood on a perfectly literal level, then the artist would've made a very different piece. 

Speaker 2 (00:46:58):
Well, yeah, it would be like a cartoon. It would be on Netflix if it was, I don't know if it was supposed to be, 

Speaker 1 (00:47:05):
Or I think it would not be so symbolic. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:08):
I 

Speaker 1 (00:47:09):
Think all of the work's use of symbols and of the way, it doesn't to me seem to be necessary to get exactly the right meaning out of it because it is so filled with things that are, seem intentionally open to interpretation. Right. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:32):
Yeah. It's funny. So there was a moment in the gallery where there was a woman there and she was dancing with her kid. 

Speaker 1 (00:47:42):
Do you 

Speaker 2 (00:47:42):
Remember that? 

Speaker 1 (00:47:43):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:43):
And I had this moment where I was kind of like, 

Speaker 1 (00:47:48):
I don't know. You were uncomfortable with, 

Speaker 2 (00:47:50):
Yeah. I was like, is that weird? Is that weird? Is that weird? And then I was just kind of like, I mean, it's a kid, whatever, it's a kid enjoying art, however, come as you are. If you can come and enjoy this music and you're with your kids 

Speaker 1 (00:48:10):
And they're not going to pick up, that kid was probably three. 

Speaker 2 (00:48:14):
They're 

Speaker 1 (00:48:14):
Not going to pick up on the sort of darker symbolism of this 

Speaker 2 (00:48:18):
Piece at all. No, I know. I know. But I think there was this part of me that was, I think everybody fights this too. It's like you're in a museum, and so you have to be reverent. And then, because I've seen it before, it's like I knew that there were skeletons and sick people, and so I had this moment where I was just like, is this a sad piece? But then at the same time, if it is a funeral procession, there are dancers in the work, it's totally fine. 

Speaker 1 (00:48:50):
Yeah. I think I would still categorize this piece as celebratory. Ultimately, the overall tone of it to me feels celebratory. I mean, you can hear it a mile away in the museum. You 

Speaker 2 (00:49:04):
Can totally hear it a mile away. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:05):
It's like you're three galleries over and you hear that music. And for the most part, I think it fuels upbeat. And there are some parts that maybe 

Speaker 2 (00:49:16):
A little more reminds mournful reminds of Louisiana. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:18):
Totally. 

Speaker 2 (00:49:19):
New Orleans sort of. It's got that feeling. I wonder. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:24):
Yeah, the brass band. 

Speaker 2 (00:49:25):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:49:26):
Totally. It's got similar vibes. And again, I'm sure there are direct cultural connections between the music of New Orleans, Africa, and I, smarter people than me would be better at explaining that. So people actually know those things and not just me making it up and going, I'm sure it's there, but 

Speaker 2 (00:49:49):
I'm sure there's connections. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:51):
I mean, I'm sure there are probably perfectly good reasons. They sound similar, and I don't know what those are, 

Speaker 2 (00:49:58):
But I really appreciated your sort of unpacking of my work from a design and art perspective. I'd never heard that before. And it kind of felt like really good because it's like when we were talking about what could Kendra's secret conversation be, I think that that's a secret anxiety I have where I'm like, I don't even know if this is art, but I'm just going to make it and I'm going to call myself an artist. But I like that obviously that tension is coming through or that question that that I have. Yeah, I guess I'm not hiding it from anybody. That and being trained in design and then switching over to fine art. 

Speaker 1 (00:51:00):
Yeah. Well, I think you're using your skills. Skills. This book I pulled out to find the example, actually, one of the teachers I had in this class that I used the same book for, I remember him telling us in another class actually all about creativity. One of the first lessons he said was Play of your strengths. And he was like, know your abilities. He's like, this isn't to say, not to be ambitious, but if you're a lousy painter, maybe don't plan to do a painting. And it's one of those things that seems kind of obvious, but it is a good lesson. So I think that's what I think you do a lot is it seems like you're playing to your strengths, what you can do. And so to you putting together a deck of cards and creating a system, you understand how that works. You know how to do that. You know how to get that work done. And so that's the skills you have. 

Speaker 2 (00:52:16):
And so 

Speaker 1 (00:52:17):
It's like then you're going to take those skills and you're going to apply them in maybe a slightly different way than you do in your day jobs or something 

Speaker 2 (00:52:25):
Where 

Speaker 1 (00:52:26):
This would be design work and it would be seen in this realm 

Speaker 2 (00:52:30):
Over 

Speaker 1 (00:52:30):
Here, that's not part of fine art, but usually the way to make something into art is to sort of remove its usefulness. We were talking about ready MAs earlier. It's like, what's a ready made, but an object rendered useless by being art, right? It's like 

Speaker 2 (00:52:49):
Totally, 

Speaker 1 (00:52:49):
You take the iron, you put the nails on the bottom, and you've got art because you can't iron clothes with it anymore. You take the, 

Speaker 2 (00:52:56):
And then you put it behind glass, 

Speaker 1 (00:52:58):
The ultimate way to make something useless. Or you take the urinal and you tip it on its back, or you take the teacup and you cover it in fur. All of these things are no longer usable as objects. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:12):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:53:12):
All we can do is think about them and 

Speaker 2 (00:53:15):
Look 

Speaker 1 (00:53:15):
At them and think about them. And they're now their art because they don't have a function anymore. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:20):
Totally. 

Speaker 1 (00:53:21):
So it's like when you take the language of design or the skills of, and all that 

Speaker 2 (00:53:27):
Stuff, 

Speaker 1 (00:53:28):
And you take away its usefulness in that it's typically serving something else. There is no client anymore, and now it's serving the people. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:43):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:53:44):
So now it's art because it doesn't have a client. And you've taken away sort of the commerce of it as well. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:53):
Totally. I mean, that's the challenge that I had with the games. Everybody's like, okay, when are you going to sell these? And I'm like, I can't sell them. You understand? I mean, 

Speaker 1 (00:54:06):
You can't sell them because you think 

Speaker 2 (00:54:08):
It's not art anymore, then it's a game. 

Speaker 1 (00:54:13):
So it's definitely a mental thing for you. It's not a practical thing. 

Speaker 2 (00:54:17):
Well, I mean, so practically, if you buy a game, 

Speaker 1 (00:54:21):
You could sell this book. 

Speaker 2 (00:54:22):
I could totally sell the book and that would be fine. But the games you go, you buy the game, who are you going to play it with? 

Speaker 1 (00:54:33):
I mean, your friends and family. 

Speaker 2 (00:54:35):
Exactly. But the whole point of the game is to bring strangers together. So 

Speaker 1 (00:54:42):
The game is because it's also, you think of it as a form of performance art, really. 

Speaker 2 (00:54:48):
Absolutely. 

Speaker 1 (00:54:49):
So that part of it, that performance of it really needs to be done in a public space. 

Speaker 2 (00:54:56):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:54:56):
So it doesn't make sense to be a private thing that is experienced in private. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:01):
Yeah. I mean, just don't think mean, maybe it could be used therapy or something. I mean, if there's just two married people and they can't talk to each other, maybe use a game or something. But 

Speaker 1 (00:55:18):
That wasn't the context 

Speaker 2 (00:55:19):
You designed. They're not therapeutic. But 

Speaker 1 (00:55:23):
That makes sense. I mean, I guess you could still find, you were saying a school or something could 

Speaker 2 (00:55:29):
Use 

Speaker 1 (00:55:29):
It because where it's a place that is still public, but that public part of it is important to the actual meaning of the work for you. So selling it in a way, you would not necessarily have that control either of how it's used. Well, did you have anything else you wanted to say about the Kindred piece? I feel like we didn't put a firm button on that, but I don't know if we need to. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:55):
Yeah, I don't know mean, do you guys have a space down there where people can, it would be cool to do a drawing activity or something in that space? 

Speaker 1 (00:56:10):
No, we don't. I don't know. I'm just like, it's a cool idea. But I mean, the installation of the work is dictated by the artist and 

Speaker 2 (00:56:23):
Their 

Speaker 1 (00:56:23):
Wishes, and that's not something we can really mess with. 

Speaker 2 (00:56:25):
So even, yeah, because that whole space is sort of curated, even the stools and 

Speaker 1 (00:56:30):
Exactly. 

Speaker 2 (00:56:31):
Gotcha. 

Speaker 1 (00:56:31):
Yeah, I mean, we did have to get those chairs special. 

Speaker 2 (00:56:35):
They're 

Speaker 1 (00:56:36):
Not exactly the same chairs that had been used with it, but they were approved by Kendra's studio. 

Speaker 2 (00:56:41):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:56:41):
So it's one of those things where, okay, 

Speaker 2 (00:56:43):
That totally makes sense. 

Speaker 1 (00:56:44):
When we're doing an exhibition that's like a traveling exhibition, and we come up with say, interactives, and we can come up with a thing that's totally ours, and we do that in that space. And that's a little bit different because it's like the edges of the art are 

Speaker 2 (00:57:04):
Different. 

Speaker 1 (00:57:05):
Right? In that instance, we're maybe looking at paintings or something where we understand that the art ends and begins at this frame, or we're looking at a sculpture where we understand the art begins and ends at the edges of this pedestal or 

Speaker 2 (00:57:19):
Something, 

Speaker 1 (00:57:20):
Whereas that that is an installation, and the whole room is 

Speaker 2 (00:57:25):
The installation, 

Speaker 1 (00:57:26):
The art. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:27):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:57:27):
Anything we would do in that space 

Speaker 2 (00:57:29):
Would 

Speaker 1 (00:57:30):
Become us changing the art. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:33):
Totally. 

Speaker 1 (00:57:34):
And so it's actually funny, you were talking about, I can't remember you talking about the kid dancing, making you a little uncomfortable. We had somebody come in and bring in a trumpet and just start playing in the space. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:51):
Oh my God, how interesting. I know, isn't it? I love this person. I 

Speaker 1 (00:57:55):
Do too. And so they did get kind of yelled at by us. And I guess it's like I have a couple different feelings about it, because on one hand I'm like, I like that this person was so, 

Speaker 2 (00:58:09):
Or I assume it was, 

Speaker 1 (00:58:13):
They were so into it that 

Speaker 2 (00:58:16):
They 

Speaker 1 (00:58:16):
Were like, I'm going to participate in this. And it is a piece that you are surrounded by. You're sitting in the middle of it. And I like that they had a different idea of where those edges were. They had a totally different idea. And then from another side of it, you could also say, well, another person who 

Speaker 2 (00:58:38):
Comes. You can't just bring a brass instrument into a museum and start playing it 

Speaker 1 (00:58:42):
In general. No, typically not. You also have to say at this point then from another audience member's perspective, then are they going to be like, whoa, is this person a part of this? Is this a thing? Is this the piece? I don't even know. And so they came to see possibly this work as it was intended. And this was not the artist's intention. So on that hand, I can also say, well, we were probably 

Speaker 2 (00:59:15):
Right to stop. It's Stop them. It's painting touches the people that collect touches. 

Speaker 1 (00:59:20):
No, I don't know about the people who collect touches. 

Speaker 2 (00:59:23):
There's people, this is like a thing where they go to famous paintings and try to touch, 

Speaker 1 (00:59:29):
Oh my gosh, okay. If you're listening to this, don't join. Don't become a part of this movement. Don't become, for our sake. I 

Speaker 2 (00:59:37):
Always get excited when people, I feel like in art school, you always talk about how you're lucky if somebody looks at your work for five seconds. So Kendra was very successful. The fact that, and getting 

Speaker 1 (00:59:51):
Somebody to play a musical instrument, 

Speaker 2 (00:59:54):
Somebody was like, oh my God. Left. Got an instrument out of their car, came back and was like, I have to be a part of this. 

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Right? Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Definitely. So that's a win. 

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Oh, congrats. 

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Congratulations. 

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Congrats. Bill Billy, old Billy KenRidge as nobody calls him. I like it. Alright, thank you. Thank you, Kate. 

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
You're very well. Thank you. I had a lot of fun. 

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Good, good. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are Alrich Durr, the Age of Reformation and Renaissance, Ana England kinship and William KenRidge more sweetly play the Dance. Join us on January 20th from one to 3:00 PM for our all ages artist Workshop on collage and learn techniques from a local artist. Children must be at least six years old to participate, and children under 13 must be accompanied by a participating adult. General admission is $12. And for art museum members, $6 for program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. And while you're there, check out images of the work we discussed today. Go to events and programs and then scroll down to Art Palace podcast. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and even join our Art Palace Facebook group. 

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Hey, 

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Are you listening on an iPhone right now? Are you using the podcast app? Then open it up. Scroll down to those empty stars and give us a rating. It will take you two seconds, but will mean the world to us. If you're feeling very generous, you could even write a review. Our theme song is Fra Musica by Abeka Lau. I'm Russell Leig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.