Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace. Speaker 2 (00:02): The whole goal I think for audio is to not be noticed. It's like a bass player. I say You don't notice a bass player unless they're bad. Speaker 1 (00:25): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host Russell iig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Bart Vander Zee audio engineer at Gwen Sound and host of the Drum history podcast. So what do you do exactly? Speaker 2 (00:55): So I'm a full-time audio engineer, so I work at a studio. Speaker 1 (00:58): So no pressure Russell. Speaker 2 (01:00): Yeah. Yeah. So don't screw up. No, but so what I do, Speaker 1 (01:02): If you don't mind just not listening to this episode, that would be fine. No. Speaker 2 (01:06): So what I do is I am in charge of podcast recording. So I do companies like TriHealth and I do some business ones. Then I get to do cool stuff, work on, I do dialogue replacement for TV shows and movies that come through town. Oh, really? So I just did Law and Order, just did Chicago pd. I worked on the New Trolls movie. It's coming out in 2020. Speaker 1 (01:29): World Tour. Speaker 2 (01:30): World Tour, yeah. World Tour. Speaker 1 (01:33): I only know about this through the McElroy. Speaker 2 (01:35): I recorded them. Oh, okay, you did? I recorded their parts for the movie. Speaker 1 (01:38): Okay. Speaker 2 (01:39): Because one of them lives in Cincinnati. Speaker 1 (01:40): Yeah, Travis Speaker 2 (01:41): Travis. So that's my connection with them. But then we'll do music. Last night I was recording a guitar solo for a guy, but so before being a full-time audio engineer, I was a video. I did a lot of video and I still do video and video editing, but when you get a full-time job, you don't want to do that stuff on the side anymore because it's like, wow, I'm done. I'm bored or not, I'm bored. I'm done doing this now. So yeah, so I have a background in video and audio and I went to school for video and audio and stuff, but now I'm full-time audio engineer. Speaker 1 (02:15): Okay. I mean, I guess you can get sort of really focused on anything, but I always feel like one of the reasons I'm attracted to making the podcast and doing audio work is it's just, to me, it just feels like one less element Speaker 2 (02:28): To Speaker 1 (02:28): Doing video work. And I do some really minor video stuff here, here and there, and I'm always just like, man, I'm glad I don't have to worry about it. Do you feel kind of the same way? Speaker 2 (02:39): Yeah, I would say that I get stuff from people where if you're shooting video, people don't realize the importance of audio. Speaker 1 (02:48): That's true. So then Speaker 2 (02:49): People will then give me something like, I just got a job, or I got a call on one day and it was like, can you just take a look at this? And I end up putting time in on it and it wasn't get on a lot of projects where it's not recorded that great. And then I do a lot, I'll have to do cleanup with this certain program where you clean up, we were talking about lav rubbing, clean that up, a truck backing up. But if audio is bad for something in a video, the whole video is wasted. Yeah, Speaker 1 (03:18): It is really interesting because I've noticed that too, where sometimes you'll watch something that you think like, oh, this looks really bad. And actually it's that It sounds really bad. Speaker 2 (03:28): Exactly. Speaker 1 (03:28): It's really weird how that is this sort of invisible effect that something with bad audio can make. It tricks you into thinking that what you're watching sound looks really unprofessional. And actually if you just had better audio, it would suddenly feel like, oh, this Speaker 2 (03:46): Feels good. Yeah. The whole goal I think for audio and what we're doing in anything like that is to not be noticed. It's like a bass player. I say, you don't notice a bass player unless they're bad. So you don't notice the audio for a film or for anything unless it's bad. That being said, if there's great sound design and all this stuff, then you're like, wow, that's really cool. But you don't think about the dialogue of in a movie, unless it's sounds like it's honky and it's got this horrible tone that's like there's an air conditioner running, you don't think about it unless it's bad. Speaker 1 (04:28): Yeah, yeah, totally. It's weird. That's the other thing too. I don't know if you do this now, probably on a much bigger scale, because since I think about audio a lot more, this is nothing I ever really thought I would do. So I've never had to put my mind in that place. But I remember I was eating in a restaurant in Paris, which now this sounds like very like, oh, this is not the point of the story. This is not a brag. Speaker 2 (04:56): I'm impressed. But go on. I've Speaker 1 (04:57): Been to Paris once in my life, so I'm not trying to brag, but I was eating a Russia in Paris, and because the Parisians are so quiet at a table, they're not a big boisterous Americans. My first thought was like, wow, you could put a recorder on this table and actually record a conversation. You Speaker 2 (05:14): Could, Speaker 1 (05:15): But it's such a weird instinct to Speaker 2 (05:17): Immediately think about, I could Speaker 1 (05:18): Record this. Speaker 2 (05:19): Yeah, there's low noise in here. Yeah, no, and that's funny because here you think about it and you're like, wow, I can't record. And that's good that you're getting that thought of, we're in a nice quiet room right now versus if you're somewhere else, I just recorded a podcast, it's called Brand Ammonium. It's a huge branding event, and we did a podcast there. But sometimes it's kind of cool if you're doing a podcast or recording at an event and you hear background chatter, Speaker 1 (05:43): If Speaker 2 (05:43): You're far enough away from it that the people, the subjects are louder than the background noise, then that's great and it gives it some environmental sound versus it being sterile too clean. Speaker 1 (06:00): So I was just curious, how does a person get into becoming an audio engineer? It doesn't seem like a job that a person dreams of as a kid, or did you? Speaker 2 (06:10): I did. Really? Yeah. So I am, it starts, I think a lot with a lot of people by being a musician. So I am a drummer, longtime drummer, and my podcast that I have is all about drums. As a kid, I always loved the idea of recording music. I found a little four track tape Yamaha at a garage sale, Speaker 2 (06:33): 75 bucks, and then started recording little bands I was playing in. And then that evolved to the next piece of gear, and then computers became bigger. And then I recorded just, I love recording music and friends and stuff. And then I went to school and I was like, all right, I want to do audio recording and video. And then ended up doing way more video in school. But you basically just have to put in a bunch of time, you have to intern somewhere. You kind of have to know people. And basically, I think the biggest part about being an audio engineer, you have to know your stuff. But I think a lot of people would agree that you have to be patient and hang out with people recording for six hours and you haven't eaten in nine hours. People start to get frustrated. You got to be the happiest most. Let's do it. You got one more in you, man. Let's do it. You got it. But yeah, some children do dream of being audio engineers. They're out there. Speaker 1 (07:42): I would've never thought, I just assumed I knew you're a musician, so I would assume you came to it more from that side, Speaker 2 (07:47): Which I guess is true. But now I was always like music, music, music. But now I love doing, I record voiceovers for radio spots and tv, and then we'll do, I enjoy doing sound design. I do a lot of that where there's animated commercials or animated explainer videos where it's like whooshes and this and that, and you build out where again, you don't think about it. It's just these sounds that are there. So it's a cool thing. I think there's not a lot of, I'm lucky I work at Gwen Sound, which I'm lucky to be able to work at a place where I can be doing this. A lot of people do it independently and they have friends that they record, but it's different when you get a paycheck and you're doing it. So Speaker 1 (08:31): Yeah. Speaker 2 (08:32): No, I love it. Speaker 1 (08:33): Have you noticed anything about the way people speak from editing people over time? It's something I don't know, I've paid a lot more attention to in recent days. Speaker 2 (08:44): Yeah, I would say, and it's from my own personal experience of doing kind of interviews with people for my own thing is I want to try and as I just did it, you want to avoid saying, I think people say a lot and I do, but right there you want to not say is much kind. It's kind of like this, and Speaker 1 (09:05): It's Speaker 2 (09:06): Kind of kind as, I can't stop saying, but Speaker 1 (09:11): I know it's almost worse to say it to point it out because then that's all you can do is focus on it. I am so aware of my shortcomings because I listen to myself. Speaker 2 (09:22): You have to hear yourself. Speaker 1 (09:23): And so yeah, I don't know if I've actually gotten any better at it, but I think about it all the time. And when people come on the show, they'll be like really self-conscious about stuff and I'll be like, oh, don't worry. I'm the worst and I have the worst habits. And maybe it's just because I've had to listen to myself the most that I'm really aware of my own bad habits. Speaker 2 (09:44): No one else is listening maybe to that closely. Speaker 1 (09:47): No, they're not. Speaker 2 (09:48): And I edit a lot of, if people are saying crazy, I'll start taking 'em out and then drag it in. Sometimes people will answer a question and at the end of it, you're kind of like, what? You can sometimes say rephrase. Just answer that one more time, just a little shorter. Speaker 1 (10:08): Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:09): That's Speaker 1 (10:09): One of the things I realized when editing people is, and you might be surprised to learn, I do edit this show, so I feel like every time I tell people I'm like, oh, really? Speaker 2 (10:19): Really? Speaker 1 (10:19): Yeah. Yeah, I do. I Speaker 2 (10:20): Know it takes a long time. Speaker 1 (10:23): Yeah, it's really clear, isn't it? But one of the funny things you don't realize until you have to start kind of chopping somebody up. And I try not to do it all that much, honestly. I don't also want to do this thing that feels unnatural or something. And I'm not making a super produced show here either, which Speaker 2 (10:44): Is good. Speaker 1 (10:44): It's not meant to be that. So that's also the other thing I kind of know, well, this is the tone of it and it's fine. This is acceptable for this. It might not be acceptable for something else Speaker 2 (10:53): And PR or whatever, but, but it's Speaker 1 (10:54): Fine here. But one of the things that's funny to me is you imagine that people speak in sentences, we think on the written page, and they do sometimes. But what's really funny is almost always, and I'm really guilty about this too, is that those periods are almost always imperceptible and they happen in the middle of two thoughts. So a lot of times what I just did there, I left no pause, cut, Speaker 2 (11:24): Exactly story of my life. Speaker 1 (11:26): I leave no pause Speaker 2 (11:27): For Speaker 1 (11:28): A poor editor to cut it out because it's like you would think, okay, they said this and then they stopped. And if you just had a transcript of it, you would go, okay, great, we can cut right there. Speaker 2 (11:39): But then they went from one sentence to another without stopping, and then there's that and or the and will kind of, Speaker 1 (11:46): Yeah, that's something I've noticed about the way people speak is you're always kind of connecting those ideas instead of just leaving a break because you want to keep the momentum Speaker 2 (11:57): Going. Speaker 1 (11:57): So you say things and or you have these little words that connect ideas. I feel like when it's maybe how you start to look at English, almost like a foreign language Speaker 2 (12:06): In Speaker 1 (12:07): The way that you go, oh, we do sort of connect the sound from the last word to the beginning of this word. And it's hard to distinguish where one stops and one begins in the way that you might expect. Speaker 2 (12:22): And a lot of times where what I'll have to do is do if sometimes people will talk through into the next, we're talking about where they don't do the pause, but then the next sentence will go on, or the next thought will go on way too long and get off on a tangent. And I'm like, no, I need to cut it. So you can get pretty surgical. And then sometimes I'll take a t a sound from way down the line, chop it, take it back and finish their word for which you don't want to do that too much, but if you Speaker 1 (12:53): Have to Speaker 2 (12:54): Can massage it and make it. So it's like, Speaker 1 (12:57): And Speaker 2 (12:57): That's a pretty common thing, and that's nothing just crazy. It just takes, you need to be able to hear it well enough and see it. But I don't know, the battle is fixing people, were just talking right now, I'm sure halfway through this, it's like, okay, I should have stopped saying this and then just ended and then it goes into something else. And that's just the way it goes. Speaker 1 (13:24): So we're going to go look at life Jillian wearing, and we're going to look at a piece in particular that I am interested in your take on it, because it's really heavily edited in a way that I didn't expect, because I feel like a lot of, I don't know. Do you know much about Jillian wearing? Speaker 2 (13:40): No. Speaker 1 (13:41): Okay. So I'll give you a primer, and this will also be good for anyone who is not familiar with her. So when they told me, oh, we're going to have a Gillian wearing show, I went like, Ooh. I was excited, but I also knew probably nobody Speaker 2 (13:55): Else is that excited. Speaker 1 (13:56): But Gillian wearing became pretty well known in the mid to late nineties. I don't know if you remember the sensation show in Brooklyn that caused all the controversy with, I forget, you're younger, aren't you? Speaker 2 (14:09): I'm 28, Speaker 1 (14:10): Yeah. Okay, so Speaker 2 (14:12): A baby. I seem smart. I'm going to say, yeah, I remember that. No, Speaker 1 (14:15): It's fine. You're okay to not remember it. I always assume everyone's my age, and then I'm like, oh yeah, you're actually almost 10 years younger Speaker 2 (14:22): Than me. Speaker 1 (14:23): So there was a group of young British artists, and that's what a lot of people call them, the Y bas, most of them do not, including Jolene Do not being called Speaker 2 (14:34): That the Y bas. The Speaker 1 (14:35): Y bas. Yeah. They actually Speaker 2 (14:36): Hate that too. That's like a youth group or something. Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:38): The young British artists, and most of their work had really nothing to do with each other. It was just like they're a group of people who were making sort of challenging work in the late nineties and mid nineties that became really popular and sold really well. And a lot of them were collected by the Saatchi Gallery. And do you know the artist Damien Hurst? Speaker 3 (15:00): Yes. Speaker 1 (15:00): So Damien Hurst would be lumped in with them. So he's the guy that has the big dead shark in the tank or the Speaker 3 (15:06): Formaldehyde, Speaker 1 (15:07): The sliced animals. Again, that work is completely different than what we're about to look at. And so that's probably why a lot of those artists reject that grouping is because it's not really based on anything other than their age and nationality and just being bought by certain people. So Jillian Waring sort of started becoming well-known around that time, and a lot of her work has aspects of being very confessional. And there's some other artists who are doing that at the time, like Tracy Emon. And so her work has, she has this angles where she recorded people wearing masks and then telling these stories about themselves Speaker 3 (15:53): Cool. Speaker 1 (15:53): And sort of really dark confessional stuff. Speaker 3 (15:58): Interesting. Speaker 1 (15:59): She's done a lot of those things. Or she's recorded herself dancing in a mall. She's a very shy person, and so she's just dancing in a mall with no music. That was an early piece, and it's just a static shot of people walking by her. And so a lot of those early pieces doesn't use a lot of editing. Speaker 1 (16:21): There's a lot of things like the dancing piece is just a static shot. It's more of, I think a lot of the history of video art. There's some of the video has started almost as a record of something, of a performance, and so that's been a part of it. And then their artists are certainly doing other things. It's not like universal, but a lot of her earlier work I wouldn't think of as being really hyper edited. So one of the reasons why I wanted to get your particular take on it is just because this piece is very edited, and actually it's interesting, not only video editing, but actually the audio editing is really interesting in it. So I want to hear your take on it and get your opinions on just how you think. Maybe you'll notice something about it that I didn't notice about it. And I mentioned her use of masks. So we'll kind of walk past some of her photographs. She's done things where she's documented her, well, she's made, I say documented, that's almost the wrong word. So she's taken old family photographs and then restaged them with herself playing other family members wearing masks Speaker 1 (17:30): And really complicated prosthetics. So there's one that is not in this exhibition, but of her brother getting ready to just go out on a Saturday night, and he's shirtless and brushing his long hair. And so she's in this full body cast to look like her brother at the Speaker 2 (17:49): Time. Speaker 1 (17:50): And she's done old photographs of her mother or other family members, her grandmother. And so she's done a lot of things with masks. We have actually, in this exhibition, several sort of portraits she's made as other artists. Speaker 2 (18:08): Oh, wow. Cool. Speaker 1 (18:09): So using these masks. So this piece, I don't want to tell you too much about the way it incorporates masks or the idea of masks. That'll be something we can talk about in a little bit, but I think that's something just for you to keep in mind too. Yeah. Cool. So let's go Speaker 2 (18:22): Check it out. Let's do it. We are back, Speaker 1 (18:37): And I wanted to see we're back. Hey. And I wanted to see what you thought about that piece, which I did not name before we got in there. So the piece I was sort of setting up a lot, it was called Wearing comma, Jillian, which is a little pun on her name, Jillian wearing. So I didn't describe it super well before because I didn't want to spoil it. So maybe you can kind of tell us what we just watched a Speaker 2 (19:01): Little Speaker 1 (19:01): Bit. Speaker 2 (19:02): Sure. And I'll give it my, for the first time seeing it kind of perspective. So basically, Jillian basically is standing in front of a white background, which as we found out was a blue screen kind of c g I guess it would be kind of thing. So they have a motion tracked mask, which is then placing her face on multiple different, I think they were actors is what it said, or just regular people. Speaker 1 (19:37): They were. So I think she did this the way she does most of her work is by putting out ads and papers and just asking for people. And she always gets absolute consent from the people that she uses in her movies or her video works. And so yeah, she just put out a call for it. Actually before she came, she put out a call here for people to possibly participate in a project, and she just didn't get the kind of response enough people to do it. So yeah, that's how she, and some of them probably are actors, but some of them who knows. Speaker 2 (20:15): So it's going through what I imagine is a script that is written from her describing. And you can maybe help because refresh just describing how we put on masks when we leave the house in the morning and we are constantly wearing a mask and we're different people. Speaker 1 (20:37): Well, you used probably some terms that I don't know if everyone will understand, but I think the best way to describe what you're looking at the most is we're seeing different people who've answered this, but their faces are all looking kind of like Jillian wearing Speaker 2 (20:52): Kind of is a good way to put it Speaker 1 (20:54): Because it doesn't quite cover all of the edges. It kind of blends it in a way that to sort of make the illusion realistic, it blends usually above the chin, and it's almost like the edges of their face are still there Speaker 2 (21:10): Stubble on men. Speaker 1 (21:12): Exactly. And it kind of smoothly transitions into this, but because the shape of the face is different, they all look a little different. And you can tell it even seems to change skin color Speaker 2 (21:23): On Speaker 1 (21:23): Some folks, so it matches the skin tone of the actual person. So yeah, they're reading from a script sometimes, but then sometimes you get the impression that they're saying things that are true about them. Speaker 2 (21:36): Yes, exactly. Speaker 1 (21:37): And the idea of identity gets really confused in the piece because for a while you're thinking, are they talking, is this stuff that Jillian wrote or is it stuff that they're saying about themselves and the edges of, she asks, I think the way, it's all very unclear the way she asks them probably to share a secret about Speaker 2 (21:59): Themselves. Speaker 1 (22:01): Exactly. But it's almost presented as secrets about Jillian wearing Speaker 2 (22:04): Yeah. And I like almost that how you can't tell where it was almost one where you're like, whoa, where it's a woman really quickly would say, yeah, I just went along with it and I kissed both of 'em or something. And then there's another one that was like, I can't remember any other ones, but it was these kind of who's, yeah, it blurs that line of is this the script? Is this the individual? And they all have that wig on, which I think was a key Speaker 1 (22:28): Thing Speaker 2 (22:28): To it where they have her hairstyle and the one I thought, and if you get a chance to watch it, that people listening, but the woman in the green kind of sweater, there was one where I was like, oh, that's her. I thought she was hidden in there. And I'm like, she is. Okay, but Speaker 1 (22:47): That's not her. Speaker 2 (22:48): That's not her. And maybe I'm like an idiot and I just kind of missed it. But Well, I only know which one's her, Speaker 1 (22:53): Because I met her here before the show opened, and so Speaker 2 (22:59): I Speaker 1 (22:59): Would not know probably for sure which one is her, but I can tell now watching it. But it isn't the one in the green sweat. Speaker 2 (23:05): Yeah. Well then at the end, they reveal the people without the Jillian mask on. And one thing that was really cool, which in the last bit we were talking about the editing is how it would be, you'd hear the actual audio of Jillian. It's almost like they had the audio from different people running over other people while they were talking each other. And then it would be a woman, and then for two seconds it would go to a man's voice and then it would come back to the woman. Speaker 1 (23:35): Yeah. It's all confused in this way. That becomes, it's a very disorienting experience in total because of all those things. So because of the way you're like, I'm not sure what I'm watching, what is true, who is speaking as themselves, who is speaking as Jillian, and then even the way the audio cuts, because it becomes obvious when it does it from woman to man. But then there are other times where you're like, well, I think it might just switched too from two women. Or it does it in different ways where you're not sure. Definitely that's less clear. Speaker 2 (24:09): And at the end it reveals I was saying where they're actually in front of the screen. You can see her there with the camera filming, and it's just this kind of, and then it shows Speaker 1 (24:19): It is Speaker 2 (24:20): Just really takes you out of it what you think when you see the man who you were like, I bet you look like this. I know you're a man, but then you see him without the wig on and you're like, okay, that is not what I thought you looked like. That was cool though. That was awesome. Speaker 1 (24:33): Yeah, it is. The reveal is really interesting at the end to see the people without the masks because you have sort of formulated this other idea of the person even through the mask. I think that's really interesting. And I think that's a big part of a lot of her work is this idea of, well, I didn't talk about this series of photographs she took earlier, but I think they're really related. She has this famous series where she just approached people on the street and she gave them a, I can't remember if it was a marker board or just a big piece of paper or something where they could write something sort of confessional about themselves. Tell me something about yourself that nobody knows kind of idea. And there's this very famous one from the series of this kind of businessman looks very put together, and his sign just says, I'm desperate. And they're really interesting pieces because even on one level, they seem to be saying, well, here's this thing that somebody is keeping hidden that they're revealing. So it's this hidden truth coming out. So on that level, it's confessional, but then on the same time, we're trusting what that person is telling us is true, Speaker 1 (25:57): And we're making a lot of assumptions about their statements based on what we're seeing as well. So we see this businessman and it says, I'm desperate. And I think the place in my mind goes is that, oh, he looks like a person who has it all, but he's saying, oh, I'm so desperate. My life is in shambles. But he could also just be like, I'm sexually desperate. Or it could be even a joke. You don't really know how they intended it. Speaker 2 (26:28): So Speaker 1 (26:29): There's a lot of that kind of, and a lot of her work things about face of value and assumptions we make about a person based on their appearances. And then the kind of way when you learn more about them, that changes what you see about them or even how trustworthy is it? Speaker 2 (26:49): And I think there's a lot of power in that if you're holding something that's like you're saying something and you believe it, and then for the person who's holding the sign, who knows, that's not a true statement Speaker 1 (27:02): Or Speaker 2 (27:02): We don't know. But for them to hold onto that secret and say that, no, I know in my head that I'm not actually desperate, but you think I am, Speaker 1 (27:10): But Speaker 2 (27:11): I'm not going to reveal that to you ever. A lot of power in that kind of an interesting, and just with that whole piece in general, just knowing what's true for me, who will walk away and you've met her and stuff, but I'll never know. That's an interesting, Speaker 1 (27:28): Yeah, it was kind of funny. I was debating whether to tell you which one is her, and I don't want to, because Speaker 2 (27:34): I also don't want to tell anyone Speaker 1 (27:35): Else because I think I the, I don't want it just to be so clear. I don't want it to be really obvious spoiler, but I do the fact that she did put herself in there mixed in with the other digital masked people. I think if you watched it a couple of times, you'd Speaker 2 (27:51): Probably Speaker 1 (27:51): Figure it out. But one of the other things I was thinking about this piece is how it does feel. I was mentioning the differences between maybe this and some of her earlier video work, but this piece, the more I watch it, the more it feels very timely. And it feels very much a piece about today. And it's almost like she's dealing with a lot of these same ideas, but this a very social media kind of world type of way. Speaker 2 (28:22): That was my first thought is the facial recognition and the turning your face into a puppy or whatever, where it's like motion tracking and then it looks further into it of Speaker 1 (28:32): People Speaker 2 (28:33): Using that information and that tracking and your face is being recorded all the time because I'm sure, of course, in some way it's the exact same technology that Snapchat, Speaker 1 (28:48): Oh, it's totally based on that. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I mean the technology she used here, I don't know exactly what sort of brand of it it is, because I'm sure there are different people who do it. But yeah, I actually watched some videos on this when this piece opened. I was just kind of interested in the technology. And it was interesting because some of the software, it's very cheap, you can buy it. It was funny, they were replicating the sort of Carrie Fisher face replacement on Rogue One that they did at the end. And they basically just fed in all this footage from past Star Wars movies into it. And then they basically compared the scenes. And it was kind of crazy how the one that was just automatic, that was not painstakingly done Speaker 2 (29:41): Frame by frame, Speaker 1 (29:44): The one we're watching in a Hollywood movie is actually, somebody's really worked on this. And then you have the software that'll kind of do the same thing. And you could tell a little bit of a difference. I mean, you could tell if you were looking really carefully, but it was kind of shocking how convincing a job it did just automatically. And then there's technology that actually Adobe just has come up with that technology that allows you to replicate somebody's voice. Too weird. You can fill in, it's almost like basically you feed it a bunch of audio and then you can make it say something in somebody's voice. And so it's the sort of big political and social ramifications of this are kind of scary because you're looking at, you can make a video of a world leader saying something that they never said, and it's all very easy to do now. It's really crazy. And I think when we live in the idea of a world where we are never sure what is true and what is not this, all this video seems to be really tied to those ideas of Speaker 2 (30:56): Truthfulness. Speaker 1 (30:58): What is true. All of that seems to be in there. Speaker 2 (31:01): Yeah, everything you just said is in there with the voice, and then it almost pulls the rug from underneath you and you're like, oh wait, the voice just switched. That's not even the person talking because the lip, the sink to the mouth was pretty dead on a lot of those where it looked like they were talking. And there's a lot of fear I know with people where they're getting those tattoos or whatever, where they, or I know in certain, I think in Jamaica or something, there was some art piece that I just saw. We were at 21 C in Speaker 1 (31:32): Louisville, Speaker 2 (31:32): And they had the piece where it was people who had bleached faces. Speaker 1 (31:35): Oh, really? Speaker 2 (31:36): And they don't want to be able to be seen from security cameras that can do facial recognition or people do the makeup where it's these bars across their face that block facial recognition. Speaker 1 (31:47): Oh, I didn't know about that. Speaker 2 (31:49): So it's the whole big brothers watching. There's cameras everywhere kind of thing. Speaker 1 (31:54): Yeah. I literally pick up my phone now to, my phone is unlocked by facial recognition. Speaker 2 (32:00): Exactly. Which is crazy. And Alexa, all that stuff, the Amazon Google stuff, it's like that's voice and the big movement, I think in the future of technology, a lot of people think is more, it's already there with Siri and all this kind of stuff is voice, and it kind of isn't great now, but that's going to be the next big thing people think is voice activated everything. So we'll see what that, and now that they're faking voices, Speaker 1 (32:33): What's crazy? Speaker 2 (32:34): It's just all, Speaker 1 (32:34): Yeah. Yeah. And it's pretty insanely, again, it works pretty well. The technology is pretty convincing. You can make, I think I originally saw it demonstrated with using Barack Obama's voice, and it was like, oh yeah, that's pretty good. Speaker 2 (32:55): Wow. Speaker 1 (32:56): So it's pretty shocking the idea of how we can replicate things. But the technology in the video is directly, you brought up Snapchat filters, and I think it's not very different. It's really based around the same ideas as a Snapchat filter, the Facebook and Instagram filters that we've all played around with where you talk about puppy ears and stuff. And it is really weird sometimes. I was playing around again with the features on my phone, and it was really strange to if you use the portrait mode on an iPhone and you scroll through the different options, and I realized like, oh, that's smoothing out my face. This one's basically putting makeup on me. Speaker 2 (33:39): Exactly. Speaker 1 (33:40): It's doing that in this way that the line between what is real and what is not real is always a little blurry with photographs, Speaker 2 (33:48): Because Speaker 1 (33:48): We do have this sort of false idea. And our curator, I think he said it on the episode when I interviewed him here on the show, our curator of photography, Nathaniel Stein, he talks about this a lot, is the idea of photography. That line being blurred in photography of what is real and not real is as being a new thing is not really true. It's actually always been a part of the story of photography from day one has been sort of manipulating the truth. Yeah, Speaker 2 (34:20): Doctoring them. Yeah. Speaker 1 (34:22): But it seems like it's so much easier to do it now. And the way that even there, the don't necessarily think of me just selecting different options on my phone as being a weird manipulation, but I realized, oh, this is almost putting makeup on me. This is really strange. I kind of notice subtle things like, oh wait, this is kind of smoothing out my skin. And it's Speaker 2 (34:45): Like, wow, I look great with makeup on. Right, right. Speaker 1 (34:49): And that's a weird thing that I don't know. I don't know exactly. I don't have a really clear thought of, I guess what I'm trying to say about Speaker 2 (34:56): It. Yeah, no, it's like unrealistic. I see more and more on social media, you only see photos that people put out that have that thing where their eyes look bigger Speaker 1 (35:11): And Speaker 2 (35:11): Their eye. And it's just creating this alternate world where the real world, it's just this, Speaker 1 (35:21): You'd Speaker 2 (35:21): Rather live in this fake world. It makes everything look better. And you can do these crazy filters. But then almost going back to the wearing Jillian piece as it has, she's talking about these people and these weird things that they say about, oh, I had this secret. It's like, yeah, everyone's still got this. It's still the real world. So it's got this kind of, it's a facade. Speaker 1 (35:48): It's Speaker 2 (35:48): The mask. Speaker 1 (35:50): Yeah, always. I think that's sort of the point she comes to in a lot of her work is that she's interested in that point of, like you said earlier, we wear masks every day. We wear them. And so even at the end, we have the people unveiled and we see their real face, but it's like we still don't really know anything about them. And they're still lying to us because they're still saying, I'm Jillian Waring. I'm Jillian. They're all running through their names. And then that's not their names. We can be pretty sure. Speaker 2 (36:24): Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 (36:25): So there's still this just uneasiness. And I like you brought up something and it made me think of when you're talking about the way the audio drops out, it changes and it's kind of pulling the rug out from under you. Speaker 2 (36:39): It Speaker 1 (36:39): Makes me think about actually something I hadn't really connected with, but David Lynch and using the way he'll kind of lull you into the comfort of believing in the lie of cinema. Right. That's a big trick. He likes to play on people is, and I'm thinking of the big scene in Mulholland Drive when at the theater, when the woman singing, crying in Spanish, and all of a sudden she just stops singing. But the audio keeps going on. Speaker 2 (37:13): Exactly. Speaker 1 (37:13): And it's the most disorienting, crazy moment. And you're just like, it kind of takes your Speaker 2 (37:18): Breath Speaker 1 (37:19): Away. Speaker 2 (37:19): Wait, no, you kind of ruin you. I was into that. I liked that. Speaker 1 (37:22): Yeah. And so that's just something I had never thought about this piece, and just brings me back to that idea of how we want. It's almost like he's definitely always playing that game where we want to believe what we're being shown. Speaker 2 (37:39): And you think it's inherently connected audio and video and it's, Speaker 1 (37:44): It's Speaker 2 (37:45): Actually a massive pain in the butt to get it synced and get it matched up. And for them to do that, you can imagine they're editing it and it's just this, A lot of people would call it a checkerboard pattern of audio here, audio there, audio there. That was a difficult piece to do, I'm sure. Speaker 1 (38:02): Yeah. It's really, it's definitely way more complicated than I was assuming. Again, I thought, oh, okay. I knew just there are people wearing her face, but it's much more about the editing than I think you would expect it to be, Speaker 2 (38:15): Especially when they're jumping around and they're moving and the face stays on there. I'm like, wow. But I like how she even said in the piece, she says, I can run my hand in front of it, and you might see it glitch a little bit. And it was like it did. You saw it Speaker 1 (38:28): Disappeared just for second, disappeared a second. Yeah. Just around the edges, especially when she runs her hand past it, Speaker 2 (38:34): You see, Speaker 1 (38:35): Just kind of disappear. It's such a weird piece. Speaker 2 (38:39): That was awesome. I appreciate you bringing me in to look at it, because you don't see things like that very often. Speaker 1 (38:45): Yeah. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Did you have any, we kind of quickly brushed through some of the other pieces in the show, so I didn't know if you had any other thoughts or any Yeah, Speaker 2 (38:54): I really liked the, and it's kind of probably not the most fancy way of saying it, but I feel like the images, they're basically moving, I would call, it's the word I'm looking for. It's like an image of a person, except it's a video where it's this. Speaker 1 (39:14): You're talking about the work that's on the opposite side of the video. Exactly. Yeah. So that piece is called Snapshot, which I think that's actually an interesting, it kind of changes maybe how you think about it a little bit too. So yeah, it's made up of these different screens, but they do kind of look like a photograph, like you were saying, it's kind of a portrait that's Speaker 2 (39:35): Moving. Speaker 1 (39:37): So it's kind of this weird in-between place of, it feels like almost like a still photo come to life is Speaker 2 (39:46): The Speaker 1 (39:46): Idea. Speaker 2 (39:47): And so the thing I was saying where it's not the most eloquent way of saying it is it reminds me of Harry Potter where they're walking and the photos are moving. And I've always actually thought that was a extremely cool technology, but it's where there's five of 'em or six of 'em. I Speaker 1 (40:05): Can't remember exactly, but I want to say six or seven maybe. I Speaker 2 (40:10): Can't Speaker 1 (40:10): Remember exactly. But yeah, and they're kind of arranged in roughly chronology of age. You get the impression that we start on one side and it's a very young girl playing a violin. And then on the clear opposite side is an older lady sitting in a chair. But we also understand they're not the same person. Speaker 2 (40:30): No. Speaker 1 (40:32): Basically because of race and some other things that we can tell, oh, these are different people, but they do seem to be kind of arranged by age. And we have the sound of the violin from the girl is coming through in the speakers, but then we also have headphones that have an audio that sounds like it's the older lady, but she's not talking. Speaker 2 (40:54): And then that was almost like your senses are just kind of like, wait, you want to match the voice with her? But yeah, she's not talking. So it's, it all felt, and then that hearing the voice, it makes you, it's a British woman speaking, so it was all just very British in a good way where you see this woman eating some sort of chip, like pork rinds or something in a car. Oh, yeah, Speaker 1 (41:18): I guess, yeah. I never really thought about it. I think I just assumed they're potato chips, but they Speaker 2 (41:23): Might be, Speaker 1 (41:23): Or not potato chips, french fries, but Speaker 2 (41:25): Maybe Speaker 1 (41:25): They are a more chip thing. She is chewing a lot. Speaker 2 (41:28): Well, in England they call chips. Speaker 1 (41:29): That's true. Speaker 2 (41:30): That's right. Fries, chips, you're But very British in a great way. And I think as an American, we all, I like to romanticize that a little bit where I'm like, I like that kind of proper British feel. So it's like, isn't Speaker 1 (41:46): That funny though? Why are we so hung up on that? We totally do have this thing where we just think the British are just a cut above. Right? Speaker 2 (41:55): Yeah. And I feel Speaker 1 (41:56): Like it's so funny, obviously it's just like, yeah, they're just like anyone else. There's people, right. But it is like this thing where I'm almost a little bit like, oh, are they judging me? Speaker 2 (42:07): Yeah, yeah. They hate me because an American, I'm too loud in this restaurant, Speaker 1 (42:11): Probably. Speaker 2 (42:12): I mean, that's probably true. No. But yeah. And then that's something that's different from us. So we look at it and we go, oh, you're, and it's that young British artist kind of thing that I think it attracts you to these British, it's, it draws me in. Speaker 1 (42:30): Yeah, it's interesting. I guess it's funny that you had that take on it, maybe because I already knew Jillian was British, and I didn't really get too hung up on that in that piece. Actually. I feel like, I don't know if there's anything in any of those images apart, I mean, the voice is maybe the thing you're responding to the most there. But I feel like if you walked up to those images and if you hadn't put on the headphones, I don't think there's really anything in them that would necessarily make you think British at all. Speaker 2 (42:56): No, not really. Because Speaker 1 (42:58): I mean, all of the images I feel like could be placed anywhere. The photo or the photo. It's really funny. You do think of them as photos and less videos, but the first one of the girl playing the violin, it clearly looks like a very old photograph and from maybe the forties or something based on her clothes. And then the fashions and things kind of change as you go through time. And I feel like they all look like an old photograph I would see in my family's album. So in that way, I feel like they don't, image wise, they don't feel particularly connected to British culture in any way. Speaker 2 (43:38): No. But then that voice just, Speaker 1 (43:40): It made you there. You can't hear anything else. Speaker 2 (43:43): No. Now I'm like, oh yeah, that's a little old British lady sitting kind of adjusting her dress and yeah, Speaker 1 (43:50): It's funny. It does have a certain weight to it that to our ears. And maybe again, to think about the sort of ideas of perception and stereotypes that we bring to a person when we see them. To tie it back to the other piece, that's funny because it's the way that we immediately have ideas about a person like, oh, they're British, so they're probably a little more buttoned up than we are. Speaker 2 (44:16): Right. Speaker 1 (44:16): Or something. Speaker 2 (44:17): Yeah, they love tea. Yeah. Speaker 1 (44:19): I don't know. Speaker 2 (44:20): Those Speaker 1 (44:20): Are my stereotypes that I'm always having to fight. You just immediately go like, oh, you're probably a little more reserved, A Speaker 2 (44:28): Little more reserved, a little more proper. Which I think to a lot of people that when you're in England, it's like you're in these certain areas and it's like that's not the case. Exactly. No. Speaker 1 (44:38): Obviously, Speaker 2 (44:39): It's Speaker 1 (44:40): Like any other culture. It's full of different classes and Speaker 2 (44:43): Different Speaker 1 (44:44): People in different locations where, well, this is kind of appropriate here and this is not appropriate here. And there's people acting wild in a bar Speaker 2 (44:52): Just like Speaker 1 (44:52): Anywhere else. People Speaker 2 (44:53): Get drunk everywhere. Well, thank Speaker 1 (44:54): You so much for joining me today, Bart. Speaker 2 (44:56): Oh, absolutely. This was great. This was awesome. Speaker 1 (44:59): Thank you for having me here. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art. General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are the fabric of India life, Jillian Waring and collecting calligraphy arts of the Islamic world. Join us on Saturday, December 15th at 1:00 PM for an all ages artist workshop led by Tracy Holiday. We'll be making our own ugly dolls that you can take home or maybe even give away as a gift. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Efron Mu by Balal, and always, please rate and review us. It always helps others find the show. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.