Speaker 1 (00:00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace, 

Speaker 2 (00:00:02):
And again, I'm not 

Speaker 1 (00:00:03):
Sure if 

Speaker 2 (00:00:04):
We would feel comfortable with Scarlet Johansson, for instance, walking around with her handmaiden with someone's head 

Speaker 1 (00:00:10):
In a basket. Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people 

Speaker 3 (00:00:31):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:00:31):
Then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is film critic TT Stern, NZ Z. 

Speaker 3 (00:00:50):
Of course, I did bring you here today because the Oscars are coming up very quick. Is it next week? 

Speaker 1 (00:00:58):
Two 

Speaker 2 (00:00:58):
Weeks? Two weeks, 

Speaker 3 (00:00:59):
Yeah, two weeks from 

Speaker 2 (00:01:01):
Last night actually, 

Speaker 3 (00:01:02):
Although this means nothing because when I post this, so I probably shouldn't have even mentioned time. I just realized that I was like, why am I talking about time? It's not like people are listening to this live, right? So it hasn't happened yet unless you're listening to it very late. That's all we need to say. 

Speaker 2 (00:01:20):
Good. Alright. Yes, they're on their way. 

Speaker 3 (00:01:23):
So I just wanted to go through, have you seen all Best Picture nominees this year? 

Speaker 2 (00:01:27):
I have seen all of the best picture nominees. I mean, the great thing about doing what I do and the way I've set it up now is I go to Toronto every year. So that really kind of opens the door for me in terms of not just seeing things, but also having the chance to get in on that early buzz. So yeah, as a matter of fact, this year, Manchester by the Sea was the very first film I saw out of the 32 or 34 films I saw at the Toronto Film Festival. And in my mind it was that film and then everything else that I saw after that, probably not fair to those other films. And it's really weirdly not fair that that was the first film that I saw. But yeah, I mean, again, that did it kind of set the stage for everything else. 

Speaker 3 (00:02:17):
So would that be your personal pick still of you get to choose not what you think will win, but what you would pick? 

Speaker 1 (00:02:28):
It is not, 

Speaker 2 (00:02:31):
And it's funny because I did this exercise. I mentioned doing programming at Camper Middle School, and I did an exercise with the kids a few weeks ago where we broke down what we had seen and were trying to come up with our best or favorite films from the past year, and we set up three different categories for it. So it was what you thought was the best film of the year and with explanations for why, what was your favorite, again, with an explanation of why, and then that last idea, that last category was kind of a, what do you think is popular or what do you expect other people to, or in the case of an award show, what do you think will win? So yes, there are three very different categories now, and I look at Manchester by The Sea as probably the best film that I saw, but it is not my favorite film from last year. 

Speaker 3 (00:03:26):
So this is an interesting idea and one that I think I've been able to keep those two ideas going for a very long time in my head of like, well, this is what I like and this is what I think is good. And I think that's a really interesting idea of essentially this idea of quality and where do those boundaries come from and why is that different from the things we enjoy and why? You know what I mean? Isn't that an interesting thought of the idea of quality and almost, I think a lot of times when thinking about the Oscars, especially, I think we have this sort of best picture type movie in our head too. So there's almost like the thing that sort of achieves all of those notes that are typically hit by this movie. So again, it's not about whether you enjoyed the experience the most or, but more like, well, it fits into these particular, it's hitting these categories and it's hitting these different areas. 

Speaker 2 (00:04:38):
And this year in particular for me was one of those years where, again, based on those three categories, I have three different films. 

Speaker 3 (00:04:46):
Like 

Speaker 2 (00:04:47):
I said, Manchester by the Sea is in my mind sort of the best film. And it's funny that you mentioned ticking off all of those boxes because that's exactly why I think Manchester is probably the best film. It has the strongest sense of direction that you get from Lagan and also has a really great screenplay that kind of allows you feel that there's this room for all of those actors to kind of grow and become these people and live in those situations. And yet you also know that it was scripted, probably down to the very last word, and you knew they were following that, but it still works. 

Speaker 3 (00:05:29):
It 

Speaker 2 (00:05:29):
Still felt natural and you went with it, it looks great. I ended up interviewing the woman who did the score. So again, again, it's ticking off all those boxes. You're right. My favorite film was Moonlight, which was actually for me, once I saw Moonlight, I guess two days into the festival, I started to flip back and forth between Moonlight and Manchester as, wow, these are the two films that I'm going to really walk away from the festival that are going to stay with me. And it is not to say that Moonlight and Barry Jenkins' work doesn't tick off the same kinds of boxes. There is just this sense from a very traditional kind of way that we look at film and storytelling and all of that. It feels that Manchester hits those notes in a sharper way, 

Speaker 3 (00:06:22):
In 

Speaker 2 (00:06:22):
A more traditional kind of way. I still appreciate and really love and identify with what Jenkins did though in Moonlight, and it works for me on a gut level 

Speaker 3 (00:06:35):
More, 

Speaker 2 (00:06:35):
Which is again, why it's my personal favorite. And then you have LA Land, which is the film that's going to win. And I saw, I think that 

Speaker 3 (00:06:46):
Everyone is so resigned to that fact. You think it's a definite at this 

Speaker 2 (00:06:50):
Point? I do think it's a definite at this point. 

Speaker 3 (00:06:52):
I kind of assumed it would too. But it is just funny that everyone's, I feel like now almost, and maybe I'm saying everyone, it's like, I don't know everyone, but I am getting a lot of this sort of resigned eyerolling like, oh, LA La Land is going to win. 

Speaker 2 (00:07:09):
And I feel that way because again, I saw it there. I saw it in Toronto as well 

Speaker 2 (00:07:16):
And liked it a lot. And I am not necessarily a fan of musicals, so it had to overcome some real hurdles to really pull me in. But it did. It worked for me. It pulled me in, but it didn't check off. There's one major box that for me, it didn't check off. And it's just the idea that there is not this substantial kind of sense of that story being meaningful. I mean, it is not to slight the story at all, but it's a traditional kind of, okay, you've got a couple who, they're artistic, they're struggling trying to find their way in the world, but that doesn't really translate in terms of a meaningful existential kind of crisis of sorts, and it doesn't do that for me. 

Speaker 3 (00:08:05):
Yeah, no, 

Speaker 2 (00:08:06):
Totally. And it doesn't really do that for anyone, at least I don't think. 

Speaker 3 (00:08:10):
Yeah, no, I saw it too, and I kind of feel the same way you do it. It's like that was enjoyable. It was fine. I liked it. I didn't think it was bad, but I also just, yeah, I think that's why there's a lot of eyeroll about it is because it's like the thing everyone expects to win, but it seems like, I don't know, I would've given it probably A B, it's B work. It's not an A plus film, so you're just kind, 

Speaker 2 (00:08:37):
For me coming out of the festival, it was not one of my top five films, but it was sort of at the top of the second tier. And again, here's where the resignation is kind of coming in. I'm already looking at the idea that yes, it's going to win best picture and I'm going to be annoyed. But I have started to acknowledge the idea that, okay, Damien Giselle, as the director, did an amazing job putting that together. Let's get over the fact that the story doesn't quite work for me in the way that it should. Everything else comes together, and there's a lot of technical stuff that goes into creating a world where people speak and express themselves through music, and he put it all together and it holds together well on all of those technical aspects. So when he wins director, I am not going to be as annoyed 

Speaker 3 (00:09:37):
As 

Speaker 2 (00:09:37):
When he wins best picture, but I'm really going to be annoyed when it wins best picture. 

Speaker 3 (00:09:41):
Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. I think it's probably also, it kind of feeds into the general criticism of the Oscars as a sort of self-congratulatory act too. So the fact that they're going to pick this movie that's all about Hollywood, and it just even adds to the back padding nature of it. 

Speaker 2 (00:10:01):
This year in particular, and again, I haven't really, I try not to focus on the box office as much, but I will admit that I feel like audiences in general will feel a little better about land winning because people actually went to see it. There are more people, and we see the figures. More people saw LA Land than have seen Manchester or Moonlight combined. Hidden Figures isn't going to win either, but more people have seen Hidden Figures than those two films. And again, that means that I guess this experiment that the Academy tried to come up with in terms of expanding that pool of pictures that could be considered for the top honor, it's kind of working for them in a way because they are actually capturing films that people are going to see and that people can relate to, which in some ways makes my job as a critic a little easier because I'm not necessarily just sitting on my high horse talking about these esoteric films that no one goes to see. That conversation has opened up. And yeah, people are, they're talking about LA Land, they're talking about Hidden Figures, they're talking about arrival, even though Arrival didn't do quite as well as everyone would've hoped, but still more people went to see Arrival than Moonlight or Manchester. 

Speaker 3 (00:11:25):
And 

Speaker 2 (00:11:25):
That film is out there now in the conversation. So that does help. Still kind of leaves me longing though for this idea that there's got to be a way for me as a critic to have a different conversation with either readers of City Beat and Dayton City Paper, or even the viewers who catch me on Friday mornings on Fox 19. I mean, they're coming, they're hearing about film, they're hearing a different take on it, but I feel like there's still got to be a better way to really get them involved in that conversation a bit more so that it doesn't feel like they are so divorced from this idea of film culture and what it can mean. Because I mean, as we kind of started out, that's not really the case. People are not as divorced from as they think. 

Speaker 3 (00:12:21):
No, 

Speaker 2 (00:12:21):
They're seeing stuff again, even if they aren't seeing the films in theaters, they have access to them through streaming services. Now they're watching original content on those streaming services, which again, is an opportunity for them to start making comparisons with the TV shows that they, that might have more cinematic elements to them that they can then compare to the films that they see. And again, hopefully lead to us being more engaged and more informed and more aware critically and culturally about what's going on. So yeah, I feel like there's still a divide there that I haven't quite figured out how to overcome. And I mean, I think the reality is now, maybe I'm thinking about it in the wrong way, because there aren't that many critics, especially paid critics left 

Speaker 3 (00:13:14):
Anyway, 

Speaker 2 (00:13:14):
So people are getting their opinions about films from other sources, and maybe that conversation is already broken down in ways that I'm just not as comfortable or aware of. 

Speaker 3 (00:13:29):
Yeah, I think definitely. And some people are very leery of film critics too. Some people definitely, you kind of said the sort of idea of a high horse. There's definitely people who have that sort of almost, well, if they like it, then I almost probably won't like it. I think there's still that attitude out there too. 

Speaker 2 (00:13:52):
Yeah, I think people completely miss, and that's one of the things that has actually helped me with doing the reviews on Fox 19. People get to see me now on Friday mornings talking about John Wick too, and 50 Shades Darker, just this two films that I had to talk about last week. 

Speaker 3 (00:14:11):
How bad is 50 Shades darker? I haven't seen it. I sat through the first one, the most boring movie about sex I've ever watched. 

Speaker 2 (00:14:20):
No, it's not. This is the most boring film. I tweeted about that and I said it on TV last week, and someone hit me up on Twitter and they're like, wow, just tell it like it is. And the idea that this is supposed to be a sexual fantasy, and 

Speaker 3 (00:14:40):
It's 

Speaker 2 (00:14:40):
So dull. It's the fantasy of a five-year-old. That is probably the worst thing that I could have ever said. But it's nothing interesting or titillating about it at all. 

Speaker 3 (00:14:56):
No, 

Speaker 2 (00:14:57):
How does, and again, you walk into it and you're going to get exactly what it's laying out for you. No, there's nothing interesting about it. Jamie Dornan is a walking set of abs, and there's nothing attractive about any of that. 

Speaker 3 (00:15:22):
No, 

Speaker 2 (00:15:23):
There's nothing risky or edgy about 

Speaker 3 (00:15:27):
Well, that's the funniest, 

Speaker 2 (00:15:28):
Any of 'em. 

Speaker 3 (00:15:29):
Yeah. The whole idea of this, oh, it's supposed to be this edgy, dark bondage movie, and then you're like, this is the safest thing I've ever watched. It is so safe. 

Speaker 2 (00:15:39):
It totally is. And again, the new film shoots itself in the foot by including Kim Inger as the woman who supposedly introduces Christian greater his kinky lifestyle. And in my mind, every time I look at her, I'm thinking of nine and a half weeks, and I'm like, you know what? Mickey Rourke wasn't necessarily a great looking dude back in the day, but he exuded that kind of weird sexual kind of energy that you were just like, okay, that dude is creepy, and now that's what you're going for. And the scene, and it's funny because I'm sitting here now and it's playing in my head. I saw nine and a half weeks when I was in high school, and I remember the scene where Mickey Roarke and Kim Basinger are in front of the refrigerator, and he blindfolds her and he's feeding her. And that is still one of the strongest sensual kinds of images I think I've ever seen on film. And there's nothing close to that in any of these 50 shades movies. 

Speaker 3 (00:16:42):
I mean, the first one I just remember is so just sloppily written too. I remember there was a scene where his mother shows up, and at the end of it I said, well, that's a scene that tells us he has a mother. Literally nothing. No other information was given during this scene other than, well, he has a mom, which we probably could have all guessed, but she literally comes in, says hi, I'm like his mom, nothing else, and walks out of the room, and you're like, 

Speaker 2 (00:17:14):
Yeah, but what really, I think the bottom line with it is what do you expect from a film that's based on a book that's based on Twilight, fan fiction? 

Speaker 3 (00:17:23):
Fan fiction? 

Speaker 2 (00:17:24):
That's what you're going to get. 

Speaker 3 (00:17:25):
Actually, that sounds like could be great. I would be totally down with something. So if it was actually, probably the problem was that it wasn't a allowed to be fiction, actually. If you just let it be kind of this weird thing, I would actually rather sit through that version because actually that's what Twilight was missing, so weirdly chased. 

Speaker 2 (00:17:50):
So 

Speaker 3 (00:17:51):
That actually sounds more interesting, certainly than Twilight. It 

Speaker 2 (00:17:55):
Needs to be, and again, I think the problem with a lot of films today that are going for these kind of lifestyle kinds of angles with, again, this is a high, high-end lifestyle fantasy. They forget that you can be cheap and fun with that stuff, and you've got to be playful with it, and there's no sense of play. It's all sterile, it's all really bland. And again, that's not a fantasy. 

Speaker 3 (00:18:23):
Well, to totally flip, but when you were just talking about something that's basically fan fiction, I just saw the Lego Batman movie, and that is essentially a fan fiction story. It could be where you have, it's all about just taking all of this weird stories about Batman from every source that's ever existed, putting it through a crazy blender and coming up with this insane story that kind of is, it 

Speaker 2 (00:18:55):
Ends insane. And you're right, it has that great fan fiction element, but the really cool thing about Bat is in taking all of those different pieces, it unifies them in this 

Speaker 3 (00:19:06):
Really 

Speaker 2 (00:19:07):
Fun way, and that's what you want. 

Speaker 3 (00:19:11):
Yeah, it's a super fun thing to sit through. I definitely like the original Lego movie more than I like Lego Batman movie, just because I think it was so surprising to me still, I did not expect it to be as good as it was, and the way it mixed. I think it also, it starts out kind of in one universe and then starts to mix in all these kind of pop culture things that are, you start to realize, oh, this is how a child plays, and that becomes a part of the movie eventually. So the way it kind of deals that out, this kind of is already starting from that point of we all know that this is kind of the world we exist in these Lego movies now, is that 

Speaker 2 (00:19:55):
They 

Speaker 3 (00:19:55):
Can kind of borrow from everything. And although it's still is funny and unexpected when it happens in certain ways. But 

Speaker 2 (00:20:03):
Yeah, I love what it does though, because it also sets up this idea that that's the first time, and I think it does it in a better way than Deadpool Pool did. 

Speaker 3 (00:20:13):
Even 

Speaker 2 (00:20:14):
It's spoofing, that whole superhero comic book genre that we've got out there. It's offering up the ways that we look at these characters, but it's also kind of saying, I mean, come on, really, we can't take this seriously. It doesn't have to be this dark and brooding and pretentious. Yeah, there's some fun in there. And again, it's the fun, like I said, that was missing from 50 Shades. You have to wallow in the absurdity of that stuff. You have to embrace it, and we are not really there. 

Speaker 3 (00:20:51):
Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely. I would rather certainly watch Lego Batman any Day over Batman versus Superman, 

Speaker 2 (00:20:59):
Right? 

Speaker 3 (00:21:00):
A movie I literally remember almost nothing about. 

Speaker 2 (00:21:05):
And it's sad for me, I agree with you, and I have been forcing myself to watch it whenever I land on it on cable, just because I'm kind of like, okay, well, there had to be something there. 

Speaker 3 (00:21:17):
And 

Speaker 2 (00:21:18):
Every time I do, I spend 15 or 20 minutes and I'm just kind of like, I know the story. I know I haven't forgotten it, even though as much as I would like to have forgotten it, it's not gone, but there's just nothing there. 

Speaker 3 (00:21:30):
Every time somebody mentioned something about that movie, I'll be like, oh, yeah, that happens. I really don't remember it. The other day I was talking to somebody and I remembered like, oh, yeah, doomsdays in that movie. I totally forgot that. That's a big part of the plot in the end. But it was a spoiler alert. I guess if you have not, I mean, it's too late now, but I feel like what, and the reason I forgot is because irrelevant, 

Speaker 2 (00:21:58):
Yes. 

Speaker 3 (00:21:59):
It doesn't matter. It it didn't matter to the plot. It could have been anything. It could have been anyone. It doesn't matter. I don't know what it is about that kind of, you're hitting it right on the head, the sort of broody, everything has to be so dark. It's clear. Schneider hates Superman too. 

Speaker 2 (00:22:18):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (00:22:19):
He just does not like him as a character. 

Speaker 2 (00:22:21):
It really just feels like we have reached, like I said, we've reached this stage where, again, with the comic book genre, and again, the 50 shade stuff, everything, again, it's deep and dark and no, 

Speaker 3 (00:22:35):
Not, it 

Speaker 2 (00:22:36):
Doesn't have to be, and I would've to say, as much as I enjoy the Lego Batman movie, there's something to be said for John Wick chapter two, because it's an incredibly violent film, but there's fun in there. It doesn't chop it up so much. Actually, the camera steps back and allows you to see all of the stuff that's happening. So you start to appreciate, for instance, that Keanu Reeves in his fifties is still a really weirdly athletic, graceful guy in a way. 

Speaker 2 (00:23:12):
So you're getting all of that action and everything that's going on, but again, it doesn't feel like it's the end of the world, the only end of the world. Part of it is just the fact that he's still not a great actor, but if you get over that, you can just have fun watching the absurdity of the violence, and it actually tells a great story. It sets up and delves into that world a little deeper. And spoiler alert, whatever you want to say, it sets up a third film, which even with the idea of setting up the third film, it's still, you sit there and you're kind of like, well, yeah, well, that next one's going to be really fun. And that's what movies are supposed to, movies like that, that's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to be fun. They're supposed to let you know that you can still have fun 

Speaker 3 (00:23:55):
In 

Speaker 2 (00:23:55):
These worlds and you can enjoy them, and that there's the possibility that there's something else out there that you haven't imagined that someone else has that's still going to be really cool and interesting too. 

Speaker 3 (00:24:06):
Yeah. Well, did you think anyone, so going back to Oscars real fast, was there anything you felt was snubbed this year or things you had hoped would get nominated that didn't? 

Speaker 2 (00:24:18):
Not particularly. I was impressed with the idea, for instance, that you had a film like Hell or High Water that came out earlier in the year that didn't get forgotten. We spent the last couple of years dealing with the Oscars, so white issues, and in terms of at least the black and white dynamic, we've gotten over that to a certain extent for this year. 

Speaker 3 (00:24:50):
Although that's also kind of a criticism about land, of course, is that 

Speaker 2 (00:24:53):
That 

Speaker 3 (00:24:54):
Is kind of feels mostly a very white movie 

Speaker 2 (00:24:59):
That 

Speaker 3 (00:25:00):
At least, I mean, I guess it's when you have really a movie that focuses so closely on two characters. 

Speaker 2 (00:25:06):
Well, 

Speaker 3 (00:25:07):
And 

Speaker 2 (00:25:07):
It has its own issues, because again, you've got the Gosling character who was trying to save jazz. Exactly. And John Legend is the guy who's killing jazz. Killing 

Speaker 3 (00:25:18):
Jazz, right. 

Speaker 2 (00:25:18):
Yeah. Okay. So yeah, you have some issues there. But again, it's funny, I didn't want to gloss over that idea, but I think what the political climate right now is kind of setting up for me in terms of looking at all of that is the idea that it, is it time for us to recognize, and again, I'm saying this as a black critic, that our concerns and issues in the US are larger than black and white issues. We were lucky that this year there were black filmmakers who got their stories made and told great stories. We were lucky that there were white filmmakers who were willing to embrace black stories as part of the American story, and were able to tell great stories as well. What needs to happen though is we need to look at the larger fabric of the American society and make sure that we're telling everyone's stories. I'm not saying that, okay, this is it. We don't need to tell any more black stories, but I'm saying while we're telling black stories, we need to tell stories of immigrants and the Asian communities. I mean, again, there's this richer fabric that is just not being addressed at all. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:35):
We are still living in worlds where largely people go to the movies and they are looking for themselves. But if you're again, one of those populations of color or another marginalized community, you're still not seeing yourself. And as a black critic, that's still the thing that drives me every time I go into the movies. I started as a kid going in the movies, and I saw everything. I probably saw as much when I was 15 as I see now. And there was this wide range of films, and I was always going in looking for where I was in those stories. And ultimately, I had to latch on to people that didn't look like me, 

Speaker 3 (00:27:21):
Just 

Speaker 2 (00:27:21):
To feel like I was part of those worlds. So imagine everyone else doing the same thing, which means that's, and it's not just incumbent upon those minority communities to sort of figure that out for themselves, just like it's from a larger cultural and political standpoint. It is not just up to those people to speak out for themselves in terms of dealing with political issues. I mean, at some point you have to have voices on the other side. They're willing to step up and say, you know what? Yeah, there's something wrong here. Let's figure out a way to address that. And that takes everyone coming together. And the Academy made some strides sort of under duress to try to figure that out. I just feel like now we should be making those strides without having the gun to our heads all the time. It would be nice. 

Speaker 3 (00:28:19):
Yeah, that sort of sense of looking for yourself in movies, I thought it was interesting the way we're talking about how it's getting better. It's getting better. There's something, but maybe we're not all the way there yet, and obviously there are plenty of great movies that do this, but I just remember watching a really bad movie, which let's be honest, the most fun ones to talk about. Right? 

Speaker 2 (00:28:46):
Sure. It's more 

Speaker 3 (00:28:47):
Fun to talk about bad movies. 

Speaker 2 (00:28:50):
I see 300 movies a year, and I see more bad movies than I see good movies. 

Speaker 3 (00:28:53):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think they're not fun to watch, but they're fun, I feel like to pick apart because it's more fun to be likes. Why was this so bad? 

Speaker 2 (00:29:02):
That's the job. 

Speaker 3 (00:29:03):
But what was the Independence Day sequel called? I can't even remember. It's 

Speaker 2 (00:29:08):
Ridiculous subtitle, 

Speaker 3 (00:29:09):
Whatever 

Speaker 2 (00:29:10):
It was. 

Speaker 3 (00:29:10):
We'll call it Independence Day two, even though that is most definitely not what it was called. 

Speaker 2 (00:29:17):
I think it's funny that neither of us can remember that right now. 

Speaker 3 (00:29:20):
It had probably, I'm sure it was something like Resurgence or 

Speaker 2 (00:29:25):
Yeah, resurgence. I feel like that's another title. It's thrown out there after the colon for a lot of films. Yeah, 

Speaker 3 (00:29:32):
Actually, art museums do that a lot too. We can't name anything without a colon, so we have to have blank, blank, blank colon. And then what it really is, so actually Boobies do it the other way. Usually they have a very straightforward first title, and then the last part is the sort of esoteric part, like resurgence or something. Whereas we would do it exactly opposite. We would call it Resurgence, colon Independence Day too. And that would be the museum exhibition title version of 

Speaker 2 (00:30:04):
It. Wow. But 

Speaker 3 (00:30:08):
Anyway, independence, whatever it's called. I was thinking, I watched that entire movie and then at the very end was like, oh, these two characters are gay. They retro kind of fitted one of the characters as gay as a gay person. I'm pretty good at picking up on coded stuff in movies. Look, I've sat through both Jeepers Creepers specifically because of the weird homoerotic content in them, and I think I can totally pick up on that. I think Fantastic Beast was a super gay movie. There is so much 

Speaker 2 (00:30:50):
Things 

Speaker 3 (00:30:51):
Going on in that that is very weird coded stuff happening. So I feel like I am good at picking up on these things. And I had no idea those two men were supposed to be a couple. It was so weirdly hidden. And of course has a gay director, and actually I almost think that is, it's almost like he's too good at hiding, which is sort of the gay specialty is hiding. So it's a history of being hidden and 

Speaker 2 (00:31:25):
A 

Speaker 3 (00:31:25):
History of hiding essentially. So it's just really weird that impulse to kind of bury it a little bit until the last minute. And then I just was like, oh, wait, they were a couple. Nothing was telegraphed to me. I mean, even the last Star Trek movie did a better job of 

Speaker 2 (00:31:44):
Giving 

Speaker 3 (00:31:44):
Me a gig character and showing me, okay, whatever. It's kind of irrelevant to the plot, but here he is. So I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (00:31:55):
And like I said, I think that's the question that I feel like politically, we are facing these realities more in terms of having a president and now an administration that is going to be so heavy handed in the way that they address these issues. It's going to force the rest of us to come together. And we're seeing that, and it's weird that this has gone completely political in terms of the conversation, but there is this sense now that different groups are realizing that there is an opportunity to think beyond their own issues for a moment and see that we are all connected in the ways that, again, you have an administration that's going that would probably be very happy to pick us apart one by one and deal with us and get us out of the way. But we're realizing, no, we're not going to let that happen. And I think we're doing that politically, but we also need to do that in terms of this cultural issue as well. 

Speaker 3 (00:32:58):
If 

Speaker 2 (00:32:59):
More people got together, and you're seeing it in some ways, some of the intersectionality, you've got people like Ava Deveney who with hers, the Queen series going out and making sure that she hired female directors. She made a conscious decision to do that. Okay, so there's an opportunity as a black woman, but who's also saying, yes, I want to make sure that women are involved in these projects. There's a chance somewhere down the line where, yes, there will be an Asian American connection with that too. And you'll see, okay, well, yeah, if we're going to cover ourselves, we're going to make sure we bring another group along too. And we understand and we relate to the idea that our worlds really are probably more interconnected than we would. Well, then society would want us to think in the first place 

Speaker 3 (00:33:48):
I was watching. So last night was the Grammys, and did you watch? 

Speaker 2 (00:33:52):
No, I did not. 

Speaker 3 (00:33:52):
So there was this country performance, and I was listening to it, and I just was thinking, this is an r and b song, this 

Speaker 2 (00:34:05):
Genre. Is that the one where they had the Dap Kings or it was the Performance with the Dap Kings? I 

Speaker 3 (00:34:10):
Will not remember her name, except it starts with an M. I'm really sorry. 

Speaker 2 (00:34:15):
That's all right. It was just something that I read about 

Speaker 3 (00:34:17):
That I don't know. So I was thinking this was like, this is just like an r and b song. It was just really, I mean, the production mean just the instruments being used were not the traditional country music set essentially. And then right as I think that Alicia Keys busts out and is singing with her, and I was like, yes, thank you. That's what I'm saying. This is the same stuff. You're doing the same thing. These songs that you have written are essentially identical, and we have these divisions that are just 100% insane. I mean, even the categories, and I feel really torn about this because on one hand I feel like, but Beyonce winning best, urban, contemporary, what does that even mean? Is that a type of music? I've never heard something. And I'm like, oh, this is urban contemporary. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And so I'm torn because on one hand I'm like, this is insane. This is a category that exists solely based on race, but with coded language to try to mask that. But very poorly, not even, obviously, I feel like rap is a type of music. It is a genre. There is a point where I'm like, that is a person who is rapping, and this is a time when somebody is not rapping 

Speaker 3 (00:35:41):
That I can go for, but Urban Contemporary, what is that? But then at the same time, I think, well, she got some recognition for Lemonade because of that category. And I kind of wonder if that category did not exist would, 

Speaker 2 (00:35:57):
Well, she didn't win pop single pop album. 

Speaker 3 (00:36:01):
No. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:02):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (00:36:02):
And that's what I can go back and forth on this of being like, well, at a certain point, if you get rid of all the categories, it's very short show, which that also could have been good. It could have shaved off at least a solid half hour there. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:17):
So 

Speaker 3 (00:36:18):
I would've been okay with that part. But yeah, it's like we got to give out some awards. We got to have out more than one. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:26):
But 

Speaker 3 (00:36:27):
I also wonder, I, without that category, would they kind of give it to Beyonce instead of Adele for Album of the Year, or would it be like, absolutely not. It's still going to Adele. I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:45):
Yeah, I don't know. And I think I have spent such a long time, again, the music portion of this is always intriguing to me because I think musicians are in a better position to make different choices than filmmakers are to a certain extent, because in film, you have so many people involved, and it's such a complicated mix and process to try to figure out and put it all together. But in my mind, I think it's fascinating that for instance, back in the late sixties and early seventies, you had an artist like Al Green who, and I have all of those early Al Green, I've got 'em on cd. My mother has them still on an album, 

Speaker 3 (00:37:26):
And 

Speaker 2 (00:37:27):
That's how I listened to them as a kid growing up. But I would listen to those Al Green albums and you would have him covering Willie Nelson and the Bee Gees and Chris Christofferson and The Doors. And the thing was, by the time you heard the song, it was just Al Green song. So it wasn't Al Green doing Country. It wasn't Al Green Doing Rock, it was just Al Green doing Al Green. But that was a choice that he made, and he was such a distinct performer that that's how it came out. And maybe if we had those kinds of distinct performers, or at least performers who are willing to try to take some risks 

Speaker 2 (00:38:11):
Like that. And again, and I don't want to dismiss, I love the idea of Lemonade, not just the idea of it. The execution is great. That's a great album. But in my mind, before she did that, I used to always think about the idea of Beyonce and say, well, gosh, Beyonce would be really cool if she did some other stuff. The Beyonce r b stuff that we get from her, that's in her wheelhouse. But I would like to see her do and everything but the Girl song or just go somewhere completely different, which she kind of did with Lemonade. But like I said, that's what I'm looking for. Why let her do something different? Let John Legend get out of his mode and do something different. Again, you go across the board, let a country artist look at, I don't know what, I can't think of a song just off the top of my head, but why can't a country artist do James Blake really just mix it up? Okay, there's another, there's a great song over there. I don't want to take a shot at that song. 

Speaker 3 (00:39:17):
Yeah. Well, and that's actually where we all started was I love seeing those collaborations that were happening from kind of unlikely places last night, like Alicia Keys on a country song, or I can't remember which show was, but the Dixie Chicks did Daddy Lessons with Beyonce for one of those, which is just a straight up country song again from Lemonade. And so I feel like those are really helpful things to sort of draw these parallels for people. Look, this is not so separated as you seem to think it is, because definitely I feel like I actually need to be, I make a more concerted effort to listen to country music now. I feel like I need to get onto that side of things that I just don't have any connection with in general. I couldn't come up with her name. 

Speaker 2 (00:40:08):
Right. 

Speaker 3 (00:40:08):
Well, 

Speaker 2 (00:40:09):
I think in the same way though, and again, taking it back to film, you have film worlds that are out there that, for instance, every once in a while, and we tend to do it in a really negative way. We call people out for not presenting diverse worlds. 

Speaker 2 (00:40:27):
Woody Allen has spent years and years getting a lot of grief because he didn't include black characters in his stories. And then he started off and he threw a black prostitute in for I think, the first film that came up, and it was kind of like, dude, that's not what we were talking about. Then again, he made another stab and he got a little better at it. So in the same way, you could argue that for a long time, Tyler Perry films were all black worlds, and then he started including white characters in it, I'm sure from the other side. You could look at it and go, well, that's not really what we wanted to be. We didn't want to be that guy in your world either. So okay, you learn, you take these chances, you take the opportunity, you bring other people into those worlds, but that has to start and continue on an ongoing basis. And if we do that, if we're able and willing to look at and find character actors across that spectrum that you can put in the roles, that gives us all a chance to see and appreciate the fact that there is a much more diverse world out there. Maybe it'll remind us of the fact that we live in more diverse worlds. Anyway, 

Speaker 2 (00:41:40):
I think that's the problem. Again, I talk about that idea of looking for reflections when I go to the movies. I never see a world on film that looks like the world I live in. That just doesn't happen. So I wonder if everyone else feels the same way, if you're a straight white male looking at the movies that you see, is your world as monochromatic as the world you're seeing on screen? Maybe it is, but I would like to hope that maybe it's not, 

Speaker 2 (00:42:22):
But you've never really thought about it before. So once someone points it out to you, you start looking around at your friends and your coworkers and the people in your life, then you're going to say, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, that's true. That world doesn't look like the world I live in. Why not? And what can I do to help make sure that that happens? Which really, ultimately, all of this gets back to what we decide to invest in our time, our money, and what we watch. If we're going to try to make a change, the first step is going to be to say, well, yeah, let me go see the Hidden Figures film. Let me go see some of these films that, again, don't look like my world necessarily. But then maybe in Hidden Figures, there is a much more diverse perspective to a certain extent in there. Maybe that opens a few eyes, maybe that says, okay, yeah, because so many people have gone to see that, and it's done so well at the box office, and it will probably continue to do well when they release it overseas. Maybe Hollywood will look at that and say, well, yeah, you know what? We don't have to be afraid of the black film world 

Speaker 3 (00:43:38):
Not 

Speaker 2 (00:43:39):
Exporting well or excluding mainstream audiences. You have to, again, you make those kinds of choices with your dollars and with your time that hopefully that makes the change. And again, that's the kind of change that you can make, but then you're doing without it having to be under the gun. 

Speaker 3 (00:43:59):
Yeah. Well, I thought if you have a few minutes, we could still go look at some art in the galleries real fast. 

Speaker 2 (00:44:05):
Let's do it. 

Speaker 3 (00:44:05):
Alright. So I wanted to come look at a piece that I was thinking about could be a movie, and we could talk about it as how you would maybe if you were, what you would want to see from the movie version of this painting. 

Speaker 2 (00:44:28):
Okay. 

Speaker 3 (00:44:28):
So we're looking at a painting by Botticelli, who's a famous dude, most famous for that old birth of Venus Seashell painting. 

Speaker 2 (00:44:39):
Yes, that's true. I was about to say otherwise you realize I'm a film critic. I know nothing about, 

Speaker 3 (00:44:43):
You don't know anything about art, but you know that painting, right? 

Speaker 2 (00:44:45):
Yes, I do. Okay. 

Speaker 3 (00:44:45):
So it's one of those things that isn't pop culture, so people generally know that at least that painting, and this is a painting called Judith and rna. Now, do you know the story of Judith and rna? 

Speaker 2 (00:45:00):
I do not. 

Speaker 3 (00:45:01):
Okay. So it is a apocryphal biblical tale, so that's why they didn't teach in Sunday school. That's why it was, we avoid this one, but it's a good story, and I was looking actually, because I thought it's never been made into a movie, and I was surprised by that. But then I looked, and actually there has been two movies, both Italian, 

Speaker 2 (00:45:24):
One 

Speaker 3 (00:45:24):
In 1929 that's silent, and then another one in the fifties that was both called, I think, Judith and RNAs and Head of a Tyrant, 

Speaker 2 (00:45:36):
Which I think 

Speaker 3 (00:45:36):
Is a great title. I know, 

Speaker 2 (00:45:38):
I like that. 

Speaker 3 (00:45:38):
I like Head of 

Speaker 2 (00:45:39):
A A Tyrant. 

Speaker 3 (00:45:40):
I love Head of a Tyrant too. So Judith is a Jewish woman, which I think is all her name actually means, so your 

Speaker 2 (00:45:52):
Name is who and what you are. 

Speaker 3 (00:45:54):
It's kind of like Belle in Beauty and the Beast, right? So Judith and her village is under Attack by the Assyrians, and she has a plan, which is she goes to the Assyrian army and pretends to be betraying her village, and she demands to see the head of the Army, and she seduces him, and she gets him very drunk on wine, and then when he's really tipsy, she beheads him. 

Speaker 2 (00:46:40):
Good for her. 

Speaker 3 (00:46:41):
Yes. 

Speaker 2 (00:46:45):
I have to say already, this is completely going against what the image that I have in my head for the movie, just based on the painting itself. 

Speaker 3 (00:46:52):
Oh, okay. So it's already different. 

Speaker 2 (00:46:54):
Yeah, this is great. 

Speaker 3 (00:46:55):
Okay, so yeah, then I mean, I gave you the very quick, I gave you the elevator pitch. So if you're the studio exec and I'm the writer from 2000 years ago was trying to pitch this story to you like, Hey, okay, listen to this. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:11):
What there are 

Speaker 3 (00:47:11):
More details? What 

Speaker 2 (00:47:12):
Kind of points am I going to get for this if we actually produce it? What? 

Speaker 3 (00:47:17):
So basically beheads him, she takes the head back to her village, everyone's excited and the Assyrian Army fleas. So that's the quick version. We can pad this out though. I mean, I think we can get a solid 90 out of this. Totally. I think, look, I feel like I've sat through a lot of two and a half hour movies recently that had less content than that. Sure, 

Speaker 2 (00:47:37):
Definitely. Definitely. I mean, again, you've got to give a little backstory on her. You set up Absolutely. Yeah. You set up the scenario between the village and the armies. 

Speaker 3 (00:47:46):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:48):
There are ways to work with that. 

Speaker 3 (00:47:50):
Yeah. You have a scene where she's like a little girl and you set up like, oh, okay, does something very nasty to her family. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:59):
Yes. 

Speaker 3 (00:47:59):
So that's the beginning of the movie is we set up that vengeance potentially with a beheading, so that feels extra just, or he tears the head off of her teddy bear or 

Speaker 2 (00:48:12):
Something. Well, and see, the thing I'm thinking about here, especially looking at the painting, my first question would be, are we doing this live action or animated? Because oddly enough, the painting reminds me, me in sort of that animated kind of realm, which in essence, when you started laying out the story, you could play that as almost like, I hate to say this, but it's kind of a Disney princess kind of story except for the bad, 

Speaker 3 (00:48:40):
Except for the entire point of the story, right? Yeah. Except, 

Speaker 2 (00:48:44):
I mean, if you kind of soften that beheading thing, you might have a Disney 

Speaker 3 (00:48:48):
Story there. What would happen instead? If the beheading in Disney's Judith and Ola, 

Speaker 2 (00:48:54):
Gosh, 

Speaker 3 (00:48:55):
What ends up happening? 

Speaker 2 (00:48:57):
What happens? 

Speaker 3 (00:48:58):
I mean, a lot of Disney villains do have sort of nasty deaths that just are kind of off screen a little 

Speaker 2 (00:49:04):
Bit, right? Again, it would have to be off screen, but you could not really go with the idea of someone losing their head even off screen. 

Speaker 3 (00:49:11):
Do they show the guy in Tarzan getting hung hanged? Sorry, 

Speaker 2 (00:49:15):
Pictures 

Speaker 3 (00:49:16):
Are hung. 

Speaker 2 (00:49:16):
They do not. 

Speaker 3 (00:49:19):
It's implied, 

Speaker 2 (00:49:20):
And again, in most of these cases it's implied. So yes, you would not see that. 

Speaker 3 (00:49:28):
I don't think they can give Disney Princess. I mean, it would be amazing. Well, nevermind. I was about to say they can't give Disney Princess as a sword, but Mulan definitely has a 

Speaker 2 (00:49:36):
Sword. 

Speaker 3 (00:49:36):
So she's already a warrior. 

Speaker 2 (00:49:39):
I mean, again, I'm looking at the details of the face here, and again, there is something very, very much in line with that princess kind of feel. Although the interesting thing for me with the painting, as you kind of take it all in, there are really interesting details that feel more realistic in some ways. Again, I'm looking down at the clothing and even the feet, there's something, again, that feels more like a fully realized 

Speaker 3 (00:50:16):
Physical 

Speaker 2 (00:50:16):
Form, which again, that's why, like I said, if you're going to move away from the animation into a more live action kind of sense, there's something about the details of this woman 

Speaker 3 (00:50:30):
That we're seeing. Yeah, I think the beheading is going to roll out animation. I think we're going to have to go live action on this one. And so now in the painting, we have, I guess three characters. Well, we do have the Assyrian Army, I think kind of writing off in the background, but then we have Judith with our sword, and we have her handmade, and then we have just the head of Ola Furnace. And so my question now, her maid Handmaiden is very, a big part of the story. She's with her the whole time, helps her through this. So I'm just kind of wondering, casting decisions, do you have any ideas? Who would we cast in these roles? Who do you think would make a good Judith and who would make a good handmaiden who would make a good hole of furnace? 

Speaker 2 (00:51:24):
Right. Well, part of the problem that I'm having as I'm thinking this through, again, it still goes back to the whole idea of the beheading, and I almost feel like for you couldn't do a Hollywood film. 

Speaker 3 (00:51:40):
You just think the beheading would just be out of the question. It's just too, too much. I 

Speaker 2 (00:51:43):
Do. I really do, and especially the idea, again, from the painting itself, you see the handmaiden has a basket on her head with the head in it, and you need to see that. I mean, that's really the crux of the painting, which means that if you're going to portray this on screen, you'd have to see this image on screen. 

Speaker 3 (00:52:05):
And almost the risk probably that they wouldn't want to take is that it makes Judith potentially way less sympathetic. 

Speaker 2 (00:52:13):
Right? I mean, it makes her, 

Speaker 3 (00:52:14):
But it's so grizzly. 

Speaker 2 (00:52:15):
It makes her less sympathetic. And I say that because we live in a world where, again, I've already talked about seeing John Wick chapter two, the idea of seeing Keanu Reeves shoot hundreds of men in the head as he's going off on his 

Speaker 3 (00:52:33):
Wicked 

Speaker 2 (00:52:34):
Wild Crusade. We're fine with that, but we don't want to see women do that. And again, I'm not sure if we would feel comfortable with Scarlet Johansson, for instance, walking around with her handmaiden with someone's head in a basket 

Speaker 3 (00:52:49):
Or I don't know. I am kind of thinking how they could get away with it. What if we see it happens in a tent, which gives us the very good option of going with a silhouette beheading scene, so you could not see that, and then we even already have this kind of wrapping around the head. Once it's removed, you could keep it wrapped through the whole thing so we never see them with it, which might kind of soften that edge. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:16):
It does soften, kind 

Speaker 3 (00:53:17):
Of hide it a little bit. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:18):
It softens it, but again, I'm following the rule that you've set up here. 

Speaker 3 (00:53:22):
I 

Speaker 2 (00:53:22):
Have this image before me, and I want to see that as a moving image. 

Speaker 3 (00:53:26):
I want 

Speaker 2 (00:53:26):
To see the head and the basket. 

Speaker 3 (00:53:29):
I do. I 

Speaker 2 (00:53:30):
Do. And maybe that's part of my issue with it that I'm having a hard time overcoming. There's something very powerful about that, but I don't think that you would see that in American film. 

Speaker 3 (00:53:42):
I think maybe we just look, look, we've got a movie to make. I think you just might have to kill your darlings and maybe let this moment go, maybe this is what we started with, but we just have to at one point say, look, the American public is just not ready to see Scar Joe walking with a head. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:59):
Well, and I guess if they're not ready to see Scar Joe like that, they're definitely not going to want to see Natalie Portman, who I guess would be the other person that I would think of. I would totally go with Natalie Portman, which yeah, I think she should, and I would love to see her with a sword walking away from this. Yeah, okay, I did this. 

Speaker 3 (00:54:20):
Okay, 

Speaker 2 (00:54:21):
Let's go back to the village and announce our victory here. 

Speaker 3 (00:54:25):
Do we have a funny sidekick, like maybe a Jenny Slate? 

Speaker 2 (00:54:30):
Ooh, you could go with Jenny Slate. That's true. 

Speaker 3 (00:54:35):
I'm just thinking who would be, we could also go older too. It could be an older woman. 

Speaker 2 (00:54:43):
Well, yeah, I guess you could go older, and again, I guess if you wanted to diversify things a little bit, you could go with Helen Mirin. 

Speaker 3 (00:54:52):
Wait, how is that diversifying that she's British? 

Speaker 2 (00:54:55):
I'm just saying in the idea that I think Helen Mirin would be hilarious. 

Speaker 3 (00:54:59):
Oh, okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:01):
As that figure carrying the basket with the head in it, I think she would love to do that. 

Speaker 3 (00:55:06):
Do you think if we go to Helen Miron and we say, so you're going to play second Fiddle to Natalie Portman, she's cool with that. I think she's going to need a guarantee amount of screen time. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:18):
I think she's going to say though that yes, if you're going to want me to carry the head in the basket that she's now the guy that she beheaded, yeah, I'd be cool with that. I think she would remember. She's going to be in the new Fast 

Speaker 3 (00:55:28):
If it's a good role. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:29):
She's going to be in the new Fast and Furious movie. She has a sense and interest in sort of the raw, violent kind of way of looking at the world. I think she'd go for, and I think she'd go again for the idea of the image of this painting, 

Speaker 3 (00:55:48):
Now that you've mentioned Helen Muir, and now I'm thinking of British, British casting, because that's also the thing that Hollywood loves to do is 

Speaker 2 (00:55:56):
Whenever 

Speaker 3 (00:55:56):
A movie takes place in any country, no matter where it is, 

Speaker 2 (00:56:00):
You get a little prestige when you go with the Britts. 

Speaker 3 (00:56:02):
Yeah. Well, again, it's a title of a movie that I cannot think of, but not 10 Commandments, but 10 Commandments. What was it, Exodus, gods and Kings 

Speaker 2 (00:56:15):
Was that's what it was called. Yes. That was Retched as well. 

Speaker 3 (00:56:19):
Yes. 

Speaker 2 (00:56:19):
But 

Speaker 3 (00:56:20):
In that movie, I know we had Ben Kingsley and Christian Bale playing American versions of basically Egyptians or the Jewish slaves, and then we had John Turturro and Sigourney Weaver who were for some reason now British. So we had this weird flip going on because that's also the thing. For some reason, villains are always British. Right, 

Speaker 2 (00:56:51):
Right. This is, again, like I said, I am now drawn to this painting in a completely different way 

Speaker 3 (00:57:01):
Than 

Speaker 2 (00:57:01):
It was before we started this. 

Speaker 3 (00:57:03):
Any ideas on who you would cast as a ho furnace tyrannical? I mean, the beard here does feel very important, but I don't know if we have to go with the Beard Beardie guy. I mean, look, you can always put a beard on anyone. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:20):
You could. I think the beard would help. 

Speaker 3 (00:57:23):
I do just kind of go to beardie people. It's like, who's got a beard? I don't know if that's really the way to cast things. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:30):
Start 

Speaker 3 (00:57:30):
With a beard. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:31):
It's probably not. And again, you're catching me at a weird time because I'm coming off of a weekend where I just watched the Salesman and Tony Erdman, so I'm in more of a foreign language kind of mode anyway, and I do not know this actor's name, and I'm sorry that I am not going to be able to reference him properly, but I would think of the lead from the Salesman. 

Speaker 3 (00:57:56):
I don't know this, what is the Salesman? 

Speaker 2 (00:57:58):
It's the best foreign language nominee from Ashkar for Hathi Iranian director, and this film is basically about a couple, and they're actors who are doing an Iranian version of Death of a Salesman. 

Speaker 3 (00:58:16):
Oh, I did hear about this. 

Speaker 2 (00:58:17):
Okay. Yeah. And yeah, unfortunately along the way, the wife is brutally attacked in their new apartment, and the husband sort of goes off on this sort of quest is to figure out who attacked his wife and to seek justice or retribution or what have you. But yeah, the husband in that, again, since there's an opportunity to spotlight an actor whose name I don't know off the top of my head, but again, we give him a chance to expand and reach a different audience to do something like 

Speaker 3 (00:58:56):
That. And that's also good. I feel like maybe an unknown to maybe American audiences would be easier to sell as a really bad guy too, because 

Speaker 2 (00:59:08):
He's not bringing the kind of baggage that we would normally associate with anyone else that we would come up with. Again, he was either British or the typical American. Although now we don't really have typical American villains really, unless you're going for cops. Outside of that, the villains are international. 

Speaker 3 (00:59:35):
Yeah, I was going to go, I don't know why I just kept coming up with Eric Ana. 

Speaker 2 (00:59:42):
I 

Speaker 3 (00:59:43):
Dunno why 

Speaker 2 (00:59:43):
There's something about him that I cannot buy as sort of the tough villainist guy. 

Speaker 3 (00:59:49):
No, 

Speaker 2 (00:59:49):
He just doesn't work for me in that way. Just 

Speaker 3 (00:59:52):
A little too fun or something. Or just too, 

Speaker 2 (00:59:54):
Yeah, there's something kind of soft and likable 

Speaker 3 (00:59:57):
About him. Yeah, I get that. 

Speaker 2 (00:59:58):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
I think even in movies where he is supposed to be kind rough, there's always that sweet side to him. Right. The 

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Only time he's actually worked for me even close, I mean, I guess it was, gosh, I think it was the Michael Mann, the war film. 

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
I'm not going to remember this. 

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Yeah, I'm blanking on 

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
Certainly be able to pull a title out. If you said it, I'm might go, oh yeah. 

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Oh, black Hawk down. That's what I'm telling. 

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
That's it. Yeah. So you take him like that. But again, he didn't have any lines, and again, there was so much going on. He was just a figure in that story. But yeah, anytime you actually give him lines and you develop a character around him, like I said, there's just something kind of soft and approachable about him. 

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
I bet there's some people who would really want to play though, like a villain who've never gotten a chance to, who might be looking for that juicy role, who are like, oh, I'm going to Heath Ledger this one. Maybe there's some young actor who's just hungry for that chance to just be, just kind, chew the scenery, be over the top. That's 

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
True. 

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
Could be a good opportunity. The 

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Problem is these young actors now, again, are more work than anything else, and you're not going to care about this guy's abs. 

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
So maybe I'm thinking like a Jake Gyllenhaal or somebody who's now not exactly young anymore. 

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Yeah. But even Dillen Hall is still pretending that he's 

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
A 

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Young fighter. He's not quite really ready to make that transition. Does he ever play the villain 

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
I guess I didn't actually see Knight Crawler, but I know it's kind of like a weird, creepy role, right? 

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Yeah. He hasn't done a full on villain. 

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
I'm just thinking I could buy him with a beard again. I'm back to the beard. 

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Yeah. He's probably not a bad choice though. That's true. I can see and appreciate the idea of him in it. That does work. I would still go with the actor from the salesman though. 

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
Okay. Still your choice. 

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
He's still my choice. 

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Again, is Jennifer Lawrence too obvious for Judith? Is it too done? Is it She's just played that role too many times now? 

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Yeah, I think she has, and 

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
We need somebody fresh in there. 

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
And again, I'm not sure that you, again, like I said, I'm all for Natalie Portman. 

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
Okay. 

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
But she's not exactly a fresh face either. But again, there's a difference to her. She hasn't been as exposed in that kind of role 

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
In 

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
The way that Jennifer 

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
Works. I like the Natalie Portman casting. I think it works. I think it makes a lot of sense. 

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
I think it's also sort of a twist in a way too, because ultimately when she has to whip that sword out and do the deeded, Natalie Portman hasn't necessarily done a lot. I mean, she's not an action hero per se, so for her to take that on, there's a challenge for us in terms of how we see her stepping up to do that. 

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
If say, we still, if you were talking about Scarlett like every day for her now, so it's all she does it seems like. So I think this would be more exciting for an Natalie Portman. Alright, well you get her people on the horn. I'll call Helen Meen. You call that guy from the salesman. I'm 

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
So glad you're going to go with the Helen Meen thing. That's good. I feel good about that. 

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
I don't have any other good ideas for the handmaid and I don't know if I'm blanking on it, although I do keep now thinking of funny British actresses, I can't remember her name. We were just talking about her in the office. The lady who was in Spy. 

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Oh yes. 

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
Who was the 

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Sidekick in Spy. 

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Yes, I could see her. She could be a fun. I like that. British Comic Relief I think is a good, it could be a good sort of foil to a very serious Natalie Portman, 

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Although, and I totally get that, but I think in the case of this woman from Spy, you run the risk of really upsetting the whole tone. 

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
Yeah, yeah. I totally have totally changed this movie into a completely insane 

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Different movie in my head now. It's much kookier and quirkier than it 

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
Probably needs to be. It needs to be, yeah. I think that's kind of my mo, so that's probably not zany sidekicks are. 

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Alright, well here's the deal. Let's see if we can actually make two versions of this movie. Then you get the kooky Zaney sidekick and I get Helen Maren, and then 

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
We'll 

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Just release both. 

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
I'm dipping back into the Disney territory with my whimsical, I don't know. Basically we're going to have a talking animal very soon if you let me keep going. I don't even know what I mean. I guess you probably ride a horse or something. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
I mean, I guess though, do you need a talking animal or what happens if the head just starts socking? But if the head is just like, Hey, wait a minute, come on now. I love 

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
That. Maybe we just take it in a totally different kind of weird look who's talking kind of angle, but with a head. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
That would be perfect. 

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Speaking of that, I just watched why, I can't think of the name. Swiss Army man. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Yes. 

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Oh my gosh. Speaking of talking corpses. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
Yes. 

Speaker 3 (01:05:43):
Oh my gosh, that movie was insane. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
I love him. 

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Daniel Radcliffe. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
I totally, I was not a fan of the Harry Potter movies at all, but I love the idea that he is done sort of almost the Daniel Day Lewis kind of route. It's like he made all that money on those films and he's just like, you know what? I don't have to do anything like that ever again if I don't want to. 

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
So 

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
If I'm going to keep acting, let's just do some interesting stuff. 

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Just completely dedicated to doing whatever weird project he wants does not care. 

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Beautiful. I wish more people did that. 

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
Yeah, it's really great. And he's really wonderful in that movie too. He is really funny and just like it's actually, I can sort of see, you would think like, wait, you're going to play a corpse the whole time. But when you watch it, you kind start to realize like, oh, there's a real challenge to this. And there's a lot of different levels to it. The different ways he portrays how kind of dead he is at any given moment, how much control of his face he has 

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
At given moment. Moment. I love how we're looking at the motivation for playing a dead guy. 

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
Just the idea of performing where trying to give the sense that you have no control over your body in any way other than very limited lip movement. I feel like most of the time he's not moving his eyes at all. He's almost never moving his eyes until pretty late in the movie. And it's just so funny. It's so funny. And almost the way that early on to even talking is a struggle in that you can kind of see how hard it is and ah, it's so funny. 

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
There's real genius in the life he's living right now at Daniel Radcliffe. 

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
Well, that sounds like a great note on talking about Judith and Ola rna. Let's talk about Daniel Radcliffe. 

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
Wow. Where this conversation has gone. 

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
I know. All right. 

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the Art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are dressed to kill Japanese arms and armor, transcending reality. The woodcuts of Kosaka Gaje, the poetry of place, William Clifft, Linda Connor, and Michael Kenna, the book of only Enoch and the Jackleg Testament. Part one Jack and Eve, A program you might be interested in is Art After Dark, dressed to Kill on Friday, February 24th from five to 9:00 PM Enjoy live music by DJ ote, Saki drinks origami, making sushi courtesy effusion, seven Samurai movie screening, Kindle performances, and free admission to the exhibition. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and even Snapchat. Our theme song is Ro iCal by Becca Lao. If you haven't already done so, be sure to rate and review us on iTunes because it really helps others discover our show. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.