Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace. Speaker 2 (00:03): I feel like if I had that on, I would always have three little friends with me everywhere I went. Those creepy little goal guys would just be like my buddies. Speaker 1 (00:23): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is artist and educator, Pam Kravitz. So some people might not be as familiar with what you do. I don't actually know how I'm familiar with what you do. You're just like a person that I feel like I've been aware of for a while, and you do a lot of different things, I feel like, and I see you around. I don't know. How do you describe yourself? Speaker 2 (01:08): Wow, that's a great question. Okay, so I'm a visual artist and I'm an art educator as well. My main purpose or my idea, or why you see me everywhere is I have fomo. That's it. I do, I have the fear of missing out, and we have so many great things going on in Cincinnati that I don't want to miss a thing. So that's why I am everywhere all the time, no matter, sometimes I think I'm at two places at once Speaker 1 (01:37): Just Speaker 2 (01:37): Because I don't want to, I'm terrible. I don't want to go to Instagram or Facebook and look at something and think, Hey, wait, why wasn't I there? But what I also do is I build community through art, and I work with lots of different artists and lots of different medias and lots of organizations. I've worked with the CAM and C A C and the Carnegie 21 C recently, and artworks I'm on the board of, I'm one of the trustees. So I think that's the thing. I live my art. I am my art, and most recently I've become dressing like my art and might tell my stories through my clothing and through my performative pieces. Speaker 1 (02:19): Yeah, I mean, if I was to describe you, I would definitely say the idea of clothing is a big part of it and dressing in a certain way, but I don't necessarily, I would say it's a character, but then I don't think it is a character, is it? Speaker 2 (02:37): No, I don't think Speaker 1 (02:40): I just was, I don't think it's a put on. I think that's just like you, right? Speaker 2 (02:44): It's pretty authentic. I mean, it's a hundred percent authentic, but I have to say that a lot of times with the costumes I do consider even the way I dress on a daily basis is very costume, very playful, very girly. I embrace my feminine side a lot, and that's the fake furs and the very colorful lipsticks. But a lot of times too, what I'm doing is telling a story or being part of a narrative of a story I want to tell through my art. So I love a parade. I love a parade. So sometimes my costumes or my outfits or my art is being in the bathtub for Arnold's dressed like a bubble because of bathtubs and bubbles. But yeah, no, it's a hundred percent authentic. But it's taken, it's been a lot of evolution. I was never comfortable with the way I looked, and I knew I wasn't the pretty girl, and everyone around me was so pretty, and I was like, I couldn't stand out in that way. So at a very young age, kindergarten, I got in trouble for wearing Minikit and go-go boots. But that was the sixties, and so I was sent to the principal's office. So very early on, I think I realized I was going to be a different kind of person, a different look, because I wanted an individuality and I wanted to stand out in my own. And I knew the way I see the world and I communicate is a lot of the way I look Speaker 2 (04:20): And giving somebody else the right or the free pass to say, be who you are, dress you feel, and let your clothing tell the story of who you are. Speaker 1 (04:33): Yeah. There's something about that. It becomes your armor in a way. Speaker 2 (04:39): Yes. It's Speaker 1 (04:40): That you put on something that, and I guess I definitely, when I was younger, I would dress. I loved just kind of really pushing the limits Speaker 2 (04:51): Of Speaker 1 (04:52): What I could get away with. And there was something about, I don't know, just I was more fearless, sort of the crazier I looked. Speaker 2 (05:02): Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. No, I agree with you. Speaker 1 (05:06): There's something about that. The more kind of outlandish I was, the more I don't know. And I guess I'm also a person who doesn't mind being on stage, who doesn't mind. So that's all very connected, that there's a safety in the costume. And I even remember when I was in plays when I was in high school, and I was very self-conscious of my body when I was that age too. And so maybe the things I would wear that were kind of maybe outlandish as Russell would be still maybe hide my body in a way that I felt okay about. But I remember playing characters on stage where the costume required would probably have made me uncomfortable on the street. But because I was somebody else, I was totally okay with it. And I did think about it for one second that I was wearing this thing that I was, and what's funny is the things I was wearing that I can remember a costume being uncomfortable about was a sweater vest or something. It was nothing that weird. Speaker 2 (06:10): It wasn't that Speaker 1 (06:11): It wasn't weird. It was just like I was not happy with how I physically looked in it. I was just like, oh, I look really fat in this. And I did not like that. Speaker 2 (06:21): And Speaker 1 (06:21): So I felt like, oh, this is really revealing. But it was okay. I was a character. You were character. Once I became that character that just totally melted away, Speaker 2 (06:31): I think you and I are the same person. I was theater too Speaker 1 (06:36): In Speaker 2 (06:36): High school and same thing. And I totally embrace the costumes, and I really, you're right, but it is an armor. It is almost like your superhero power that I can show up and I can be like this, and I'm safe. I'm safe in this costume. I've never thought of it like that, but you're a hundred percent. And I think that's to the way that I've, not even knowing that that's what I was doing Speaker 1 (07:04): And Speaker 2 (07:05): The body image issues and all of that stuff, of course I have those and I still have those, but the way that I have learned to embrace and love my body and the way I look is part of the costuming. Speaker 1 (07:21): Well, and I was thinking about other people, I was saying, well, I don't think most people are very nervous of being in front of people or nervous of performing in that way that I'm not. But I've been around people who have stage fright and are nervous. And I remember in my previous job, we had this bear costume that we would wear for programs, and there was somebody who was very, very shy and who was very nervous, but she loved putting on the bear costume, and she could safely be as kind of big and as outlandish as she wanted to be in that costume because it was safe, Speaker 2 (07:59): Fearless. Speaker 1 (08:00): And you're anonymous too. You have this mask over your face and you're totally anonymous. It was basically a mascot type costume. And I've seen that happen with lots of people who they put on something that completely conceals them, and it allows them to become somebody else and to lose all inhibitions. I Speaker 2 (08:22): Don't know if, did you know I was the Bearcat, the uc, Bearcat mascot for two Speaker 1 (08:25): Years? No, I did not. Speaker 2 (08:27): I'm the most unathletic person you'll ever meet. I have two varsity college letters, athlete letters. I actually have a captain's letter, which is really funny. But yes, I was the mascot in exactly that. I got more dates being the mascot than you can even imagine. You are. You put yourself out there in such a different way. But then, I don't know if you know this, but which blown away got the opportunity to wear a Nick Cave sound suit here when it was at Cam. Was it five years ago? Maybe four Speaker 1 (09:00): Or five years ago? A little. I've been here for four and a half, and it was just a little bit before I started, maybe 2012 or so. Speaker 2 (09:06): Okay. Right. Speaker 1 (09:07): So Speaker 2 (09:07): That was also that feeling like putting on those incredible suits and walking around. People were in awe and excited and so was, and my friends that got this opportunity. So yeah, definitely that concealing yourself in such a way, you can totally put yourself out there. Speaker 1 (09:25): Yeah. Speaker 2 (09:26): Now I don't have to do that anymore. Now I'm like, hello, here I am. Take me or leave me. Speaker 1 (09:32): What, I was just kind of curious when I was thinking about your description of what you do and the way you kind of perform and you think of it that it's almost like your art is just existing in the world in a way. When you talk about, say, being in a parade, I mean, I guess a parade is a type of framework that we can view art even though maybe people don't traditionally think of it that way. But is that something you're also interested in, is kind of removing the boundaries of where we see art? Speaker 2 (10:04): Oh, I love that you say that because that is so living in my head lately. Speaker 1 (10:07): Yeah, Speaker 2 (10:07): It is. So living in my head, and actually, somebody asked me recently, they're like, where can I see your art? I'm like, well, are you going to the Bach Fest parade? Because it'll be in there. And so I definitely am playing with those ideas now because I do want to go back to making some more of my art. I've never, it's been a really long time since I made art that hung on a wall, Speaker 2 (10:32): But I've made those big marionette puppets. I had the C a c very interactive and very performative. They were performative. So I am kind of ready to marry the idea of my art and the idea of a non-traditional space, a moment in time. That's what I love about the parades, and I love about, it's that moment in time you have to be there, you have to experience, and then it goes away, which is weird. I mean, most artists, you want that idea of something tangible, something concrete. And I think a lot of times what I want is that feeling that I give or get or do when I'm in that moment in time. Speaker 1 (11:16): Well, that's theater. Speaker 2 (11:17): That's theater, Speaker 1 (11:18): Right? Speaker 2 (11:19): That is theater. Speaker 1 (11:19): It's just for the moment, and it's with those people, and then it's gone and you make a tape of it or you document it, but it's never the thing. Speaker 2 (11:28): It's never the thing Speaker 1 (11:30): Was there, and it was that moment and it's gone. And Speaker 2 (11:33): It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm glad you brought that up. It's definitely been brewing in my head lately. Speaker 1 (11:40): Exactly Speaker 2 (11:40): What you articulated way better than I did. Speaker 1 (11:45): What's your relationship to drag? Speaker 2 (11:47): Oh, oh my gosh. Did you know me? Do you follow me around? Speaker 1 (11:52): No, Speaker 2 (11:53): No, I don't. Speaker 1 (11:53): I've never met you. Speaker 2 (11:54): I am infatuated in love, enamored in awe of drag queens. Speaker 1 (12:02): Well, because sort of as you're describing, and I've seen some of your costumes and your performances, I kind of feel like this is kind of drag, right? It's Speaker 2 (12:09): Kind of drag Speaker 1 (12:11): It. I mean, obviously the idea of, and I think there are female drag queens too, who are not a drag king, but that is becoming more of a thing where there are female drag queens who basically, I am going to play this because the whole idea is this exaggerated Speaker 2 (12:27): Femininity Speaker 1 (12:29): That's over the top. And so it kind of doesn't totally matter. I mean, of course, I feel like in a traditional drag queen, which is a bizarre stateman, I know the idea of a traditional drag queen, but I feel like there's, to some degree the idea of the illusion, but that's not always there, and it's not necessarily a part of everyone's performance either. Speaker 2 (12:56): Does it only belong to men dress? I mean, I love that. Speaker 1 (13:00): I don't think it has to Speaker 2 (13:01): Really, I just wouldn't want to infringe on an art form that's been around for a very long time that I don't know. I don't know. I have to look into that. That would be, I just went to Tennessee, to Nashville to actually be in a parade, a Christmas parade, a nice Jewish girl in the Christmas parade. I was dressed like an elf. It was kind of crazy. But we went to a drag show there, Speaker 1 (13:25): And Speaker 2 (13:27): I am blown away by the talent, the beauty, the craftsmanship, the artistry, and talk about a moment in time putting yourself out there. And I am in love with it. Speaker 1 (13:39): Yeah. Speaker 2 (13:40): So, okay, I'm going to look into that. I'm ready to go home and make some art. Man, you're totally, I Speaker 1 (13:46): Inspiring to me. Yeah. I mean, I think there are women who have done drag performances. I mean, obviously it is a little bit, I think if you're looking at the history of drag, you have the idea of gay men becoming, it's almost, again, the safety of a costume basically allows you to be sort of flamboyant and feminine in ways that you are not allowed to be when you are dressed as a man. And the ways we don't, gay men are not allowed to behave in traditional culture in that way. So yeah, you don't have that element there. Obviously, it's something that's missing. But I also feel like I've seen women who are also just so into the idea of, you're talking about the technical aspects of drag that they even do the extreme contouring to achieve that look that is essentially designed to make a man's face look like a woman, look like a woman. But they're like, it's so heightened and extreme that Speaker 2 (14:45): It's Speaker 1 (14:46): Kind of become its own thing. Speaker 2 (14:47): It has become its own thing. Speaker 1 (14:49): And Speaker 2 (14:49): Then I love the freedom of it that it creates. And I think that's a male female, whoever you are, we all are. I feel want that idea of freedom, that I can express myself and I can be myself, even though myself is dressed someone else. I don't know. It's a really interesting thought. I'm going to listen to this. I need to think about everything we're talking about right now. Speaker 1 (15:15): Well, maybe we can keep thinking about weird stuff and we're going to walk around. So we've actually, as we've been talking, we're sitting here at the beginning of one of our newest special exhibitions, Iris v Urin. And I know I'm not saying that probably, right? Speaker 2 (15:29): Oh my gosh. I was hoping you were, because I've avoided saying it. Speaker 1 (15:32): I've heard three different ways of saying I've her say her name, and I think it's one of those, it's like a Dutch name. We're never going to say it probably, right? I've heard people, it's like the H doesn't usually get pronounced. I've heard the N kind of not get pronounced. I've also heard though, when people say Van Gogh, it's almost like Gfu, Speaker 2 (15:51): Like Speaker 1 (15:52): The V almost becomes an F. So I don't know if you do that here. I don't know. Speaker 2 (15:55): It just spelled like Iris, isn't it? Speaker 1 (15:57): Yeah, but it's definitely Iris. Speaker 2 (15:59): Its Iris. Speaker 1 (16:01): I try not, and that's also the thing. I try to pronounce it with a way where I'm halfway between not sounding super pretentious, where you're like, if you say it overdo it, you're one of those people who's like, and now we're going to go look at Picasso or something, and then you're just the worst. Speaker 2 (16:19): But you were bringing up a really good point. So many people, I think are afraid to go to look at art or to be in a space where they're not a hundred percent, well, I know this. I get this. I understand this. And even a name not feeling comfortable with the name pronouncing, it makes people stop. They don't enter and they don't question. Speaker 1 (16:42): Well, I don't know if I've told this story on the show before, so I apologize if you've heard it before anyone listening, but when we had the Van Gogh show here, my husband was talking about it, and he's from Brazil, and he said, van Gogh. And I kind of laughed and I was like, Speaker 2 (16:58): Silly. We Speaker 1 (16:58): Say Van Gogh. And then I thought about it, I was like, but that's not right either. And then the British say, van Goff, but that's wrong too. But a lot of Americans assume it's right just because they're British, so obviously they know more than we do, right? Because we think, well, listen to that accent. They must be smart. Speaker 2 (17:17): They must be super Speaker 1 (17:17): Smart, but they're also mispronouncing it too. And so it's like every country has its own way of pronouncing words, and it's say, what's fine. It's like if you understand who you're talking about, there's no reason to be snobby about it, to try to make somebody feel bad about it. So it's like I've relaxed my feelings on pronouncing names at a certain point. It's like, well, unless you're their mom or dad, you're probably not going to Right. You're probably going to not say it. Right. And Speaker 2 (17:48): It shouldn't stop someone from coming and looking at it or talking about it. Yeah, Speaker 1 (17:51): Absolutely. It's like that's an important part. Speaker 2 (17:54): I had a little lady's luncheon yesterday, a tea, a high tea, and we were talking about macaroons and macarons. Speaker 1 (18:01): Oh yeah. Speaker 2 (18:01): Oh my gosh. That became a heated debate Speaker 1 (18:04): Over Speaker 2 (18:05): A cookie. Speaker 1 (18:06): Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like, yeah, I know. It's like if you're French, it's a ol. Speaker 2 (18:11): Oh, that's even better like Speaker 1 (18:12): That. We're not, and again, I'm not going to walk into Taste of Belgium and be like, oh, could I have a ol? I am not going to do that because then I'm that guy that's Speaker 2 (18:25): Super pretentious and I love it. Right. Speaker 1 (18:27): You can't do that. So it's like, I'm just going to say a macaroon. I know. That's what everyone around Speaker 2 (18:31): Me, but those are the coconut ones Speaker 1 (18:32): I know technically. Speaker 2 (18:33): Yes. Yeah. The other ones the almond are, Speaker 1 (18:36): Yeah, there's only one O. So yeah, it's a Macon. Yeah. There's only one. Speaker 2 (18:41): I'm going to have to have a fight with you over this. I can see it. No, Speaker 1 (18:43): I mean, it is true. They're a macarole. But again, I don't, Speaker 2 (18:49): I know Speaker 1 (18:49): Know, it sounds silly, but Speaker 2 (18:51): The thing is, I just don't want that to be a reason for someone to stop. Don't not pick that cookie out point to it or don't not come to this show. I was telling people her name was Iris until you, and so I'm like, go see Iris. I mean, it is amazing. Speaker 1 (19:06): And we called her that until we heard otherwise. Right. So in the office we would say Iris as well, because you see the name and you go, well, that's what I know. But then you realize like, oh, yeah, right. Speaker 2 (19:16): Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:18): She doesn't say her name like that. Yeah. She's not from Speaker 2 (19:19): Cleveland, right? Or Cincinnati. Speaker 1 (19:23): She's Dutch. Yeah. So I don't know. I'm probably, again, even at my best, I'm still not doing it. Probably justice. Speaker 2 (19:32): It sounds really pretty though when you say it. Speaker 1 (19:33): Well, thank you. So we're going to look at some pieces and I don't know what would be the best way. We're obviously not going to be able to look at everything. No, Speaker 2 (19:42): There's so much here. Speaker 1 (19:43): There's a ton of stuff. So I thought maybe we could just, if you remember some of your, you've already seen the show before. Speaker 2 (19:49): I did. I did. Speaker 1 (19:49): So I just thought maybe we could go check out some of your favorites and then we'll just kind of tell me what you like and I'll tell you what I like. Speaker 2 (19:57): Okay. Well, let's talk about this one before we go further. Speaker 1 (19:59): Oh, we don't even have to walk. We're Speaker 2 (20:01): Sitting. Plus these little stools are kind of comfy. Speaker 1 (20:04): They're comfy. Yeah. Speaker 2 (20:05): Let's talk about this piece. Speaker 1 (20:06): Can we? Yes. And let's go over so we get the name right of it. I know it has something to with smoke. It's Speaker 2 (20:11): Not in Dutch, is it? Speaker 1 (20:13): No, no. They're all translated. This one's called Refinery Smoke Dress. So the refinery smoke was a collection of different pieces, all based on the idea of smoke, which Speaker 2 (20:25): Becomes Speaker 1 (20:26): Pretty clear when you're looking at this. Speaker 2 (20:27): Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (20:28): Yeah. So it's made out of this. This is a huge dress that I don't even know. Maybe you have better ways of describing it. I am also not a super fashion person, but I Speaker 2 (20:38): Think huge dress works. Speaker 1 (20:41): It reminds me of those, I don't know, 18th century French gowns came out from the sides really big. And again, I'm probably messing that historical detail. No, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, because all off the sides really Speaker 2 (20:55): Huge. If she would not make it through a door, she Speaker 1 (20:57): Would've to Speaker 2 (20:58): Go sideways. Oh, Speaker 1 (20:58): No. Turn sideways. Exactly. Look at a cartoon. But it's this kind of gauzy metallic fabric, Speaker 2 (21:07): But it's metal. It's like metal. Speaker 1 (21:09): It Speaker 2 (21:09): Looks gauzy. It looks soft, Speaker 1 (21:11): Right? Yeah, but it's not. Yeah. When I say metallic, I don't mean like, Speaker 2 (21:14): Oh, I thought you meant metallic is in the bronzy color, Speaker 1 (21:17): Right? Right. You mean Speaker 2 (21:17): Metallic Speaker 1 (21:18): Metal? Yeah. I mean, it is literally metal. It's Speaker 2 (21:20): Literally metal. Speaker 1 (21:20): No, I'm glad you clarified. That could sound like it. It's shiny, but no, it is woven metal fibers basically to create this metal. And actually, one of the things I was reading I thought was cool that I didn't realize is when this first came out, it was silver, and then it has just oxidized. Speaker 2 (21:40): Oh, you're kidding. Over Speaker 1 (21:41): Time. Speaker 2 (21:42): Oh no. Speaker 1 (21:42): So that's just rust. Yeah, that gives it that color. Speaker 2 (21:46): Okay. And when we're looking at this, we're looking at this big dress that looks like a cloud or looks like smoke. And then the top part matches the color. Is that also woven metal? Speaker 1 (21:58): Yeah. Think it's all the same stuff. Speaker 2 (21:59): I thought that was actually tool roused or something like that. I don't know. Fashion words. I just want you to know sewing words. But it looked, oh my gosh, I had no idea. Speaker 1 (22:07): Yeah, I think it's the same material, just kind of bunched up more. And it almost looks like kind of an upside down mushroom cloud, doesn't it? Speaker 2 (22:16): Yeah. Speaker 1 (22:16): Because you're, the body is, her torso is kind of that thinner part. Then it bushes out really huge when she calls it refinery smoke. There's a little bit of a political edge to that. Oh, Speaker 2 (22:32): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (22:32): If it was just called smoke, smoke, we have, that's just sort of feels elemental and natural. But she's narrowed it down to refinery smoke. This is from industry. So I kind of love that it, Speaker 2 (22:46): It's as bad as the smoke that comes out of those. It's become that. Speaker 1 (22:49): Yeah, there's something about that by turning to rusting over time has given it that other to Speaker 2 (22:57): It, crunchy, edgy. Well, and the thing, I think this speaks volumes to her from, I didn't read a lot about her because we wanted this to be a conversation. I didn't. But the fact that she let this turn and let the elements, the natural elements work, her piece seems to fit her philosophy incredibly well. It's super controlled, super controlled. The craftsmanship is outstanding and Speaker 1 (23:24): Crazy Speaker 2 (23:24): And insane. But the fact that she's letting the metal do what metal does, Speaker 1 (23:30): Instead Speaker 2 (23:30): Of saying, oh, no, no, no, no, I got to change this. I got to go back and remake it. It's like, this is the process that this medal would take. And she's honoring that and celebrating it in a really weird way. Speaker 1 (23:44): Yeah, it's a really cool, Speaker 2 (23:45): I love that. Speaker 1 (23:46): I love that too. Anything else that you were attracted to about this piece? Speaker 2 (23:50): Well, I love tutu's, and I wear a lot of tutu personally. And that to me is the ultimate Speaker 1 (23:56): Tutu, Speaker 2 (23:57): The most ginormous, enormous, incredible, crazy tutu I've ever seen. Speaker 1 (24:03): Yes. Speaker 2 (24:04): And I would totally wear that right now. Speaker 1 (24:07): Yeah. Speaker 2 (24:07): I just had to learn to walk sideways most everywhere. Speaker 1 (24:10): Well, it's funny because that's one of the classic things you hear people who just like, who's going to wear that of Speaker 2 (24:19): Me? Speaker 1 (24:20): So I'm glad that we have somebody volunteering right now, because that's one of the things people always come up with when they're confronted with this fashion that seems really outlandish is like, where do you wear something like that? Speaker 2 (24:33): I think, well, that's a good question though about the whole show. So much of this is the material isn't comfortable. Some it's three D printed or the metal or plastics. So this is the fine art of fashion living in your head. This is the stuff, if I could have the world the way I want it, this is the way I would want people to dress and be. But it's not really the idea of function. Speaker 1 (25:04): It's Speaker 2 (25:04): Not the idea of an everyday I'm going to put that on. And Speaker 1 (25:08): I think that's not that crazy of an idea for people to also wrap their minds around because it's like you also don't put on a tuxedo to go to Kroger. And there are layers of, and typically the things that the more formal the occasion, the more uncomfortable the close Speaker 2 (25:21): Is it tell the truth. You're right. Speaker 1 (25:22): So it's like this kind of extends into Speaker 2 (25:25): That. That's kind of interesting. But you're right. Speaker 1 (25:27): But it's like you kind of are expected to be a little bit uncomfortable when you to look Speaker 2 (25:30): Good Speaker 1 (25:31): When you go to a certain thing. And it's like, yeah, there are limited places you would wear this to probably. But that's also the case with lots of things you wear probably all the time, that you don't wear it for every situation. Speaker 2 (25:47): And it does speak back to the history of the way garments were made, what we're talking about, those big dresses in the Renaissance and whatever, and crazy, uncomfortable. The women especially looked incredibly uncomfortable. And so that, yeah, it kind of speaks to that. Speaker 1 (26:06): Yeah. Well, let's move on. Let's go to, Speaker 2 (26:09): There's only like a thousand, Speaker 1 (26:10): Right? We'll move to our left, because technically this is the side the show starts on. Speaker 2 (26:17): So Speaker 1 (26:17): We'll kind of follow the order of the show, I guess. But we can just stop wherever you want. Speaker 2 (26:22): Let's stop. Oh my gosh. I just want to stop everywhere. We Speaker 1 (26:25): Everywhere. I know. There are so many good ones. Speaker 2 (26:27): I think we have to talk about the one that looks like snakes all over Speaker 1 (26:31): It. Okay, let's do it. Yeah, it's kind of right here in the middle. And I want to make sure I get the name of this one, which I think it's one that, it's called Capol is the, I don't know if I'm saying that right. So that's the sort of collection name here. Speaker 2 (26:48): Oh, okay. Speaker 1 (26:50): But yeah, it's this thin, I feel like it's a plasticy Speaker 2 (26:54): Material. It almost looks like plastic, black plastic cups that have been layered and layered and layered and made into almost, not a tube, but I don't know. Yeah. I Speaker 1 (27:04): Mean, they're tube, like Speaker 2 (27:05): A tube. Speaker 1 (27:06): They kind of look like a segmented worm, Speaker 2 (27:09): But Speaker 1 (27:09): They change in thickness too, where it gets real fat and then it shrinks down. Speaker 2 (27:14): It undulates. Is that a good word? Speaker 1 (27:16): Sure. Speaker 2 (27:16): Does it do that? Alright? I feel like it feels kind Speaker 1 (27:19): Of thrives as well. Speaker 2 (27:24): This is definitely a woman wearing this or a man, whoever's going to wear this. It was not somebody you want to meet in an alley. This one looks like Speaker 1 (27:32): You think it's intimidating. Speaker 2 (27:33): I think it's incredibly, but super sexy. There's a sexiness to the strength of it. It's very strong. And I think a lot of Iris's work is very tribal. It feels very like otherworldly, like Galaxy of the Guardians kind of crazy town. But then it feels also very old and ancient and very tribal. And to me, this piece looks incredibly tribal. Speaker 1 (28:01): Well, when you're talking about it, the sexiness of it, I kind of wonder if maybe that also has to do with the idea of femininity being curvy Speaker 2 (28:11): And Speaker 1 (28:12): Relating back to that idea and taking it in this totally different direction than it normally goes. Speaker 2 (28:17): All curves. All curves. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There's no angle on there at all. It's all, and wow, I love that, that it celebrates the curves of a woman. Speaker 1 (28:26): Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 (28:28): Yeah. Speaker 1 (28:28): I also, the other little detail of it is the way that the arms are also those tubes, which I think is a great way that they become otherwise. So, and then that just one little thing to me ties it back together to become Speaker 2 (28:46): Like, say, this is a garment, Speaker 1 (28:47): Right? Because otherwise it would just almost be like a sculpture you're wearing. And that one little thing makes it back into more of a garment for me. But this one is definitely, I think pushing that envelope of sculpture fashion and being on that edge. Speaker 2 (29:04): Right. Absolutely. Speaker 1 (29:05): I was watching some videos of her talking and somebody was interviewing her, and they brought up this idea of whether she kind of thinks about concealing the body Speaker 2 (29:19): Or Speaker 1 (29:19): Revealing the body Speaker 2 (29:20): Really. Okay. Speaker 1 (29:21): And really, this is a piece that definitely feels like it's more on the concealing side, but she said she's always very aware of the body Speaker 2 (29:30): And Speaker 1 (29:31): Is always considering that shape in there. And I think even this one, it's like if you look at the lines of these tubes, they kind of come in at the waist a little and kind of pop back out, even though it kind of at first looks like a Speaker 2 (29:44): Big mass. Oh yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. Speaker 1 (29:46): I think it understands the shape underneath. Speaker 2 (29:50): It celebrates. She's totally is celebrating female form, and you see that throughout the collection, every piece and says, yes, we have hips and we have breasts. And it totally honors that and accentuates it in Speaker 1 (30:08): Ways. Speaker 2 (30:09): Yeah. She's definitely not saying, I wish we look like something else, and I'm going to dress you so your body looks like something else. It's more of I'm celebrating us women in a really interesting way. Speaker 1 (30:25): I Speaker 2 (30:25): Don't know. Does that make sense? Speaker 1 (30:26): Well, yeah. No, it's something I hadn't really thought about until I heard her mention it, and I was just like, oh, yeah, I wonder what? And now as I'm standing in here, I look, and I feel like most of these pieces really do work with the form, but there is a little bit always of a play back and forth of where they sort of acknowledge the body and where they sort of break from that. And that's almost where the fun is, Speaker 2 (30:48): Is Speaker 1 (30:49): That game of, I'm going to show you a little bit and then we're going to hide it here. It's kind of a fun little dance she's having, I think, Speaker 2 (30:59): Because even the pieces that, and can we walk down and, Speaker 1 (31:01): Oh yeah, let's keep walking. Speaker 2 (31:03): This one, to me, this piece looks like something from Alien, Speaker 1 (31:08): Like Speaker 2 (31:09): The movie Alien. It's Speaker 1 (31:09): Like an HR gigger sort of creation. So this is in the same collection, the same Caprio or Caprio le, I don't know exactly. Cap. Speaker 2 (31:17): I don't know. I like Caprio le. Speaker 1 (31:18): It sounds a little bit fancier. Speaker 2 (31:20): I like it. Speaker 1 (31:21): But yeah, I think this is a three D printed. A lot of people call it like a skeleton dress I've seen. But yeah, I mean, it seems very rigid in that way too. Speaker 2 (31:35): It does, but it only covers not even half of the body. Speaker 2 (31:41): So it is rigid, but there's so much negative space. And the negative space, the space that's not dealt with by the three D boning is beautiful as well. So the parts that she has chosen to leave open also create beautiful images and shapes. And I love the idea that we think of fashion, or at least I think of fashion as mostly soft materials, mostly sewn on a sewing machine or by hand. But the idea that she uses engineers and she uses three D printing and she uses scientists, so she's taken fashion to a whole different plane, a whole different level of thinking, which maybe this is the future of fashion. If we don't have cotton to Speaker 1 (32:30): Use Speaker 2 (32:30): Or we don't have wool, or well, we'll always have polyester. So that's a given. Speaker 1 (32:36): And when you're talking about the high tech aspect, it, it's also making me think about how I love that this, on one hand, of course, we know it's made, it's a three D printed piece, so it seems like very high tech, but then it's referencing the most ancient bone. There's almost something kind of caveman feeling about it. Very caveman. It feels also ancient at the same time. Speaker 2 (33:02): Absolutely. And that almost looks like a rib cage, doesn't it? Yeah, that looks, yeah. And then what it does too, on the hips, which is interesting, I think a lot of these, not a lot, but many of her pieces really accentuate the hips. So to me, that speaks super feminine and super. Oh, what's it like? I don't want to say childbearing, but when we think of the hips as spreading and things like that, when you're pregnant and you're having a child, to me, that feels like honoring that movement that a female body takes at different stages of their lives. Speaker 1 (33:43): Well, and really, I was just thinking about that. We were talking about how much skin is shown through this too. So there's this interesting back and forth of vulnerability, but also feeling very protected through these shell. Speaker 2 (34:03): You can't touch her. Speaker 1 (34:05): Well, it's very pointy. Yes, it's very pointy. Speaker 2 (34:07): Don't want to touch her. It looks like Speaker 1 (34:09): Dangerous to touch. So it's this really interesting idea of being sort of vulnerable, but protected. Speaker 2 (34:17): Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. Speaker 1 (34:21): Yeah. Alright. Anything else down Speaker 2 (34:23): Here? Oh, let's just keep walking. I think what's funny when you walk into this gallery space, one side of the room is almost more traditional looking garments. Speaker 1 (34:35): So Speaker 2 (34:36): The side that is synthesism, Speaker 1 (34:41): Synesthesia, Speaker 2 (34:41): Synesthesia, Speaker 1 (34:43): Synesthesia, synesthesia, Speaker 2 (34:44): Almost looks like gala gowns. You could actually, this you could buy. So the juxtaposition of these pieces across the way from it, which are almost entirely not functional, is really intriguing to me. Speaker 1 (35:04): These are definitely, at least as we're looking at the synesthesia collection, the escapism collection across from it is Speaker 2 (35:12): Completely Speaker 1 (35:14): Way less practical. And yeah, it seems almost like architectural and this one in the middle here. Yeah, I was looking up, I know Bjork wore this. Oh, or one from this collection. I don't dunno if it's specifically this one in the middle, but as well as the Snakey one we were looking at too. She performed in that one too. Speaker 2 (35:34): I didn't know that. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. But it almost feels like West Side story to me. You're walking down at any Speaker 1 (35:41): Minute, sharks and jets, Speaker 2 (35:46): And I think the museum has done a brilliant job of, what's it called, putting the pieces out there, exhibition Speaker 1 (35:55): Design Speaker 2 (35:55): Exhibitionism, the exhibition design, because they do look like they are talking to each other and moving towards each other. And I kind of love that a lot. But let's go look at Splash or It looks like a splash. Speaker 1 (36:06): It looks like a No, that's definitely one. I think people, well, I don't know if this one has its own name, specific name. It's part of the crystallization series. We can get a little closer here. I'm going to walk us over just to look at that specific label to see if it does have, I think if you said Splash, everyone would know. Speaker 2 (36:24): Would know the one. Yeah. Speaker 1 (36:25): It's just called Crystallization dress Color. So yeah, it's in the idea of this whole series was all inspired by water and sort of the different phases of water. So you have maybe this last one that maybe represents ice or some sort of crystallizing of water a little bit more. And you have this one, which feels like definitely about the most liquidy. Speaker 2 (36:53): Yes, absolutely. Speaker 1 (36:55): Point of water. Speaker 2 (36:57): And then this is more of steam or smoke or something Speaker 1 (37:00): Maybe. I don't know. I haven't heard specifically about that one, but I could see that just because of the sort of airiness of those pockets and stuff. I think that's Speaker 2 (37:09): Inappropriate Speaker 1 (37:09): Read on it. Oh, Speaker 2 (37:10): Thank you. Speaker 1 (37:11): I would feel like, Speaker 2 (37:12): I like that. Speaker 1 (37:13): I thought maybe as much. I think that sounds good to me. And I think maybe with some of these pieces, I think she's maybe trying to get to multiple states of that. You have this, the one that I was saying feels a little icier. It Speaker 2 (37:27): Does. It Speaker 1 (37:27): Has that skirt though, that feels very much like a little cascading waterfall. So when you think about maybe different forms of water existing at once. Speaker 2 (37:38): Right. Speaker 1 (37:39): But yeah. Do you know how she makes these? Speaker 2 (37:41): No. Do you? Speaker 1 (37:42): Yes. Speaker 2 (37:42): Oh, please tell me. Okay. Please tell me. But I have to just say, just as we're, yeah, go Speaker 1 (37:46): Ahead. We're Speaker 2 (37:46): Saying this, and this is the teacher in me, but it's like when you come to an exhibit and we talked about this, just even not understanding how to say her name perfectly. It's okay. It's okay. And come to an exhibit and look at pieces and have a conversation and think about it. And maybe the way you perceive it, or you see it as not exactly the intent of the artist, but it's really okay. Speaker 1 (38:09): Oh, Speaker 2 (38:09): Totally. And I think we just need to give ourselves that freedom to dress the way we want and come and look at something that we are not quite sure of and have a conversation. Think about it. Speaker 1 (38:22): Yeah. I mean, I always think it's like you come to everything you approach, you're bringing your own history with it. You're bringing your own personality to it. So yeah, I mean, to me, that's what makes it interesting is you're going to look at this thing and it remind you of something different. And it might make me think of something else. And it might not be what the artist thought of or was thinking of. And that's okay. It doesn't matter. Speaker 2 (38:44): It's okay. It's really okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 (38:45): And I think, I feel like if you've been on the other side of it as an artist, and you make something that at a certain point you put that thing out and your intentions kind of don't matter at a certain point because you're not going to be there every second to Speaker 2 (39:00): Whisper Speaker 1 (39:00): In somebody's Speaker 2 (39:00): Ear, excuse me. No, no, no. That's not what I meant at all. Speaker 1 (39:02): Right. And there's a certain point where you might've meant this thing, and you take it and you show it somewhere and everyone's talking about it, and they're all getting something totally different. And then you go, well, maybe I was wrong. Speaker 2 (39:14): Right? Maybe. Speaker 1 (39:16): And I think I've been wrong about my own word before. Yeah, me too. I thought I've made something about one thing, and then somebody else goes, oh, I think it's this. And then everyone else goes, oh, I think it's I. Speaker 2 (39:26): And Speaker 1 (39:26): Then you start thinking about it and you're like, oh, I think they're right. Speaker 2 (39:29): I Speaker 1 (39:30): Think I just didn't understand what I was doing, Speaker 2 (39:32): What I was doing at the time. That's Speaker 1 (39:33): Great. Sometimes you're working in such an intuitive way and that something is intuitively, and then it's like your thoughts on it come after the fact. A lot Speaker 2 (39:43): Of Speaker 1 (39:43): Times Speaker 2 (39:44): It's Speaker 1 (39:44): Like, well, I'm doing this thing because I know I want to make it. And it's like it's maybe tapping into something you don't even understand yet. And then later on you look back and you go, oh, Speaker 2 (39:54): That's what I was doing. Speaker 1 (39:55): Oh, it's so obvious now. Oh geez. Speaker 2 (39:58): Okay, so please tell me, and I am so curious how this is made. Speaker 1 (40:03): So it's kind of interesting because I wanted to talk about this because when we've got another three D printed piece here, but she is not just interested in super high tech techniques. And in fact, when she was younger, she was kind of afraid of using the computer and really wanted to, she was very much about using her hands and just getting in there, making stuff. Those early pieces over there are all made out of children's umbrellas. Speaker 2 (40:31): Ribs Speaker 1 (40:32): Right over there, kind of the first ones we came past. But this is basically, she found this type of plastic that works really well for this technique. And all she does is it's a big, she starts with a big flat rectangle of plastic, and then she's using a heat gun. Speaker 2 (40:49): Yes. That's Speaker 1 (40:49): What it looks like just to melt Speaker 2 (40:50): It. Speaker 1 (40:51): And she's using little pliers to twist and turn it Speaker 2 (40:54): As she's doing it Speaker 1 (40:55): And kind of snipping it in certain ways and cutting it and actually working it in a way, not too dissimilar to when you see somebody working with hot glass and they're kind of manipulating the hot glass, Speaker 2 (41:06): But this is just Speaker 1 (41:07): Melted plastic. Melted Speaker 2 (41:08): Plastic. Speaker 1 (41:10): But one of the things I thought was interesting, I was watching her do the technique and she was saying how she has to be really careful to not repeat herself and when she's doing it, because you can sort of maybe keep making the same shapes if you're not Speaker 2 (41:24): Careful, and it's not organic that way. Speaker 1 (41:25): And then she's like, but water doesn't look like that. Water doesn't Speaker 2 (41:28): Repeat. Speaker 1 (41:29): So you have to be careful to try to do it all very different each time. Speaker 2 (41:35): I think the thing that's super intriguing to me, and we talked about this a little earlier, just the way that I like to communicate with my art is that moment in time, this looks like we just happened to walk in at the perfect time when this beautiful woman in this gorgeous dress was walking through this big piece of water this big, it's like, and we caught her Speaker 1 (41:57): That Speaker 2 (41:57): Second, that Polaroid second. And I love that. Speaker 1 (42:01): Well, and I know she is done somewhere, she's referenced photographs, and that's one of her challenges is to find the right picture to capture the shapes she's looking for so that they are accurate to water. But of course, also water separates and breaks up into little blobs and things that you can't do. So she's also trying to find that moment where the water is sort of still connected so that she can kind of repeat that shape. Well, let's maybe walk over so we can check out a little bit of the other side. Speaker 2 (42:31): Other side. And then we asked, we don't need to stop and talk about it right now, but you have got to come and look at those shoes, the shoes that, the pieces that she has in the other gallery space. Speaker 1 (42:42): Oh yeah. All those Speaker 2 (42:43): Ridiculously incredible shoes Speaker 1 (42:45): That Speaker 2 (42:46): I'm pretty much wearing flats at this point, but even just the idea of a high heel scares me. But you look at her shoes that are, they're otherworldly. Speaker 1 (43:01): I Speaker 2 (43:01): Mean, how else do you, and they look intimidating and they look fierce. And the idea of finishing these looks off with those incredible shoes. You can just imagine. Speaker 1 (43:16): Yeah, they're definitely interesting. And I've watched videos of the models walking in them and stuff. They do fine. They do it. They seem like you look and you're like, how could you even walk in those? But they manage. They Speaker 2 (43:29): Totally manage. Speaker 1 (43:29): Yeah. They're actually probably not that different than walking in high heels, which are uncomfortable enough as it is. As it is. But Speaker 2 (43:36): The beauty of all of this is when you look at it, it's like, yes, of course the craftsmanship and all that, but these are functioning garments, Speaker 1 (43:43): So Speaker 2 (43:44): She has to be incredibly conscious of the shoes, the way the pieces move. And when you watch the videos, you see that just how the women are walking in the shoes and in the garments, and they're on their body. It's working. It's a functioning thing. Probably don't want to sit down in it, but Speaker 1 (44:03): Yeah, probably impossible in some of them. But yeah. Speaker 2 (44:06): Alright, I'm going to turn the table on you. I want you to pick one. Speaker 1 (44:10): Okay. I want you to pick one. Actually. I really love this piece that we are right next to, which is part of, I guess, hybrid holism collection. It's the first one on the platform here. And the reason I like this one is it's both feels, we're talking about kind of otherworldly and sci-fi with this where the arms go kind of thing. She's all kind of wrapped up on one level, but then there's something about it that feels familiar and almost feels like something I would see Liza Minnelli at Studio 54 or something. There's something that references, I Speaker 2 (44:48): Was thinking, Greta Garbo walking out. Speaker 1 (44:52): There's something about this feels like there's something kind of eighties almost about it. It's totally Speaker 3 (44:56): Eighties. You're right. You're right. It's totally eighties. Speaker 1 (44:58): And so that I, because it's just got a little bit of playfulness to it in that, I don't know, it's not so serious. Maybe to me, I think it, it's kind of fun in that way that it feels like playful something kind of party or something Speaker 2 (45:12): That is so, see now my interpretation of that is not playful. Isn't that funny? This seems very formal to me. Speaker 1 (45:19): Well, I mean, like I said, her arms are constrained. They're constrained. So I mean, that is probably, it is not a super fun thing to wear in that way. Speaker 2 (45:27): And you're going to think, this is not into my personality or whatever, but I love my idea of a good time. I sit on the couch and watch sci-fi. I love it. Speaker 1 (45:37): And Speaker 2 (45:37): This super feels fifth element to me. You know that Bruce Willis one? Speaker 1 (45:42): Yeah. Well, those are all Galtier designed. Speaker 2 (45:45): The costumes Speaker 1 (45:46): For that Jean Paul Gaultier. Of course. Speaker 2 (45:47): I did not know that. Speaker 1 (45:48): Yeah, so those are all very high fashion, really too. Speaker 2 (45:51): Oh my gosh. Speaker 1 (45:52): Yeah. Speaker 2 (45:53): This one for some reason reminds me of the opera singer, remember? But I think all of the tubes were coming. They were coming out of her belly too. They, I think Speaker 1 (46:01): So the tubes Speaker 2 (46:01): Were out of her head. Speaker 1 (46:02): It's really funny too, in my extensive YouTube research as well, where I was watching Iris talking about things, somebody had asked her a question about sci-fi Speaker 2 (46:14): And Speaker 1 (46:14): Whether she would ever design for a sci-fi movie, and she gave a pretty non-committal answer. She was kind of like, oh, she said she wasn't, she's not really particularly, it's not a passion of hers or anything, but she was like, if it was the right movie, and I was interested. Sure. I don't know. She wasn't like, oh, I'm obsessed with sci-fi. I Speaker 2 (46:34): Would love to, no. Yeah. It doesn't seem like she is, it seems like I am obsessed with sci-fi. Speaker 1 (46:39): Right. Speaker 2 (46:40): But it seems like she's, some of these pieces of the one next to it looks like leaves beautiful. Speaker 1 (46:44): Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Definitely. Speaker 2 (46:45): It's like, what a contrast. Speaker 1 (46:47): Yeah, very much so. Yeah, I think she's more interested, when she talks about her inspiration, it always seems very directly pulled from nature or pretty abstract concepts. And so she's not so interested in referencing pop culture or something. She's more like, I want to make something that's about electricity or something strange like that. She's going to go to something really abstract that does not seem like it should work for clothing, and then pull something else, Speaker 2 (47:15): Which is a huge challenge that she challenges herself. I love it. Speaker 1 (47:20): Okay. I do want to look at something else Speaker 2 (47:21): Down here. Okay. Let's look at something else. Speaker 1 (47:22): So we're going to walk down pretty far to the end here to be wilderness embodied. And again, Speaker 2 (47:28): To Speaker 1 (47:28): Talk maybe things that make me think of movies. Speaker 2 (47:31): Okay. Speaker 1 (47:33): Is this this down here? This Speaker 2 (47:35): One. Okay. With Speaker 1 (47:36): These bird heads. Speaker 2 (47:37): Oh, I don't think I noticed the bird heads till now. Speaker 1 (47:41): I love this piece. Speaker 2 (47:43): Yeah, so much. So is this this three D printed, or is this plastic? Do you know? Speaker 1 (47:48): I think it is just plastic that is cut. Plastic might, let's go. This is where Russell does not remember everything. So let's go read a label and see, because it should tell us. Speaker 2 (47:57): It'll a little bit about Speaker 1 (47:58): It. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (47:59): Wow, wow, wow. Speaker 1 (48:00): So it is, they're laser cut feathers. Speaker 2 (48:05): Are they real gu skulls? Because it, Speaker 1 (48:08): It says gu skulls, so I would assume that means they're real, maybe. Okay. Speaker 2 (48:13): Okay. I love that. Speaker 1 (48:14): Usually if it was just plastic, it would say plastic. Plastic skulls. It might not even say gu skulls. So that's pretty crazy. That is pretty Speaker 2 (48:22): Crazy. Speaker 1 (48:22): Didn't realize that either. That's insane. Speaker 2 (48:24): I wonder what they're coated with so they don't Speaker 1 (48:27): Yeah, it looks like some kind of plasticy. Speaker 2 (48:28): Materialist, like a silicone or a, Speaker 1 (48:30): Yeah. Speaker 2 (48:31): Okay. So tell me why. I mean, now that I'm sitting here with you and standing here with you, yes. This totally grabbed me, but why did this grab you initially? Is it the little birds, the gu skulls? Speaker 1 (48:45): I think so. I feel like I have talked about probably on the show before my obsession with the movie Labyrinth. Speaker 2 (48:52): Oh, they do look Speaker 1 (48:53): Like that though. And so it's very Jim Henson workshop to me that there's these little characters popping off of her who in my mind are of course, real wise crackers. So I think that's funny. But then also, I like that there is something, there's the absurdity of those birds, but then it seems very chic. Speaker 2 (49:15): Yes, super Speaker 1 (49:16): Chic. Like the feathers of the material. So I like that playfulness of this idea of almost status and wealth that's coming across Speaker 2 (49:29): Almost like the, and my grandma has those fox neck pieces where they keep Speaker 1 (49:37): The little Speaker 2 (49:38): Exactly box space on it and eclipse to hold it on. You're right. That feels that same. Speaker 1 (49:43): Yeah. Yeah. So it's taking that idea and taking it to this crazy level, and I love it. Speaker 2 (49:50): Those are the feathers that belong to the birds that are Speaker 1 (49:53): Stuck Speaker 2 (49:54): On her shoulder and, and then this is also something really interesting. When you walk through the pieces, the colors, this is the absolute most perfect shade of pale pink ever. Speaker 1 (50:08): Yeah. It's very fleshy, but just a little pinker. A little. It's a little Speaker 2 (50:15): Rose, a little pink. Speaker 1 (50:16): Yeah. It's a little warmer than skin tone. So it's just like, yeah, there's something about that too that makes me think of something that makes me think of wealth again. There's Speaker 2 (50:27): Something Speaker 1 (50:27): About that very understated pink. Speaker 2 (50:29): Yeah, there's a regalness to it. Okay. So this is something I don't like being by myself. I'm always with someone. I always, even the grocery store, I'll call a friend. I'm like, Hey, whatcha you doing? Let's go to the grocery store. I feel like if I had that on, I would always have three little friends with me everywhere I went. Those creepy little gull guys would just be like my buddies also. And I think a lot of these pieces they are protecting. There's something those gulls are, it's like you can only get so close to this incredibly beautiful, regal person because those gull skulls are going to go after you. So a lot of the pieces feel like you said, like armor almost. Speaker 1 (51:08): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's coming back to that. Speaker 2 (51:11): Very interesting, very otherworldly. And I saw she interned with Alexander McQueen, which makes perfect sense that over the topness, the attention to detail, the craftsmanship, there's a whimsy. Totally. Not whimsy in a playful way, but a whimsy in a very thoughtful, Speaker 1 (51:40): Yeah. I mean, it's Speaker 2 (51:41): Not recognizable way. Speaker 1 (51:42): Yeah. I mean, I think you wouldn't look at most of these pieces. And even this one, which is to me, I would never think of this as a silly piece or something. They're not clownish or anything. But I like that too, because there is just enough of that playfulness that it doesn't take itself too seriously. I love that. And I think there's just a little bit of that, even this one with the next to it, with the white and the Speaker 2 (52:11): Black in the black. Yeah. Speaker 1 (52:14): There's something just sort of fun about those shapes that are popping out. And I don't know, again, I would say there's definitely a playfulness to that. Speaker 2 (52:24): Definitely. I agree. And this whole series, these three, so is this one of the ones that was based on the electricity? Speaker 1 (52:30): Yes. Because Speaker 2 (52:31): What it feels like the series, Speaker 1 (52:33): These three are the voltage series. So yeah, you can see they all feel very radiating, Speaker 2 (52:38): Very much. Speaker 1 (52:39): And the way that almost the one next to it, the way it looks like electricity is kind of racing around the body, the way the paths electricity might take. Speaker 2 (52:49): The other one almost feels like lightning in a way. Yeah. Speaker 1 (52:53): Well, using again, the metal. Speaker 2 (52:55): The metal Speaker 1 (52:56): And those forms to create that sort of jaggedy shapes. And it's so reflective again, to think about the light from electricity and lightning like you're saying. Speaker 2 (53:07): Right. Wow. Speaker 1 (53:09): Well, I think our time is about up. Speaker 2 (53:12): I'm so sad. Speaker 1 (53:12): I know. We could talk all day, all day. I know. We'll have to have you back to look at something else so we can keep going. Speaker 2 (53:22): Okay. Alright. Speaker 1 (53:23): Thank you so much for joining me today, Pam. Speaker 2 (53:25): Thank you, Russell. This was super fun. I'm Speaker 1 (53:27): Glad you had a good time. Speaker 1 (53:36): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are Alrich Durr, the Age of Reformation and Renaissance Iris v Urin, transforming fashion, Ana England Kinship, and William Ridge. More sweetly Play the Dance. Join Elise Renfro on January 30th at 3:00 PM for a free gallery experience about the oldest pieces in the collection currently on view and how they relate to the culture of today. For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. And while you're there, check out images of some of the pieces Pam and I discussed today. Go to events and programs and then scroll down to Art Palace podcast. And we still want to learn about you, so please take our very quick listener survey While you are there too, you can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and even join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Ohand Music by Balal. I'm Russell Leig, and this has been Art Palace, produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.