Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace. Speaker 2 (00:03): I'm thinking of a table farmhouse beer. Speaker 1 (00:06): Okay. Speaker 3 (00:07): It's pretty straightforward. I knew that's where you were going to go. I don't think I said straightforward. Speaker 1 (00:10): Oh, welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool people are Jason Brewer and Jared Lewinsky from Lierman Brewing Company. So how did Lierman get started? Speaker 3 (00:51): So it got started back in 1991 by Dan and Sue Lierman, and we manufactured parts for home brewers, so false bottoms, bottle fillers, sparge arms that were for large brewers, shrunk those down to size and manufactured. No one was doing that at the time. And so we made 'em here in Cincinnati and shipped 'em throughout the country. And we go to a lot of conferences and trade shows. People will stop us and ask us if we're with the Lister men from back in the nineties, because that's how they got their start home brewing Speaker 1 (01:19): Was Speaker 3 (01:19): By buying stuff from Dan in the early nineties. So he was doing that at the Hamilton County Business Center from 91 to 95, and then 95 moved into our current building, which is 1621 Dana Avenue, right across the street from Xavier. And then that's where he opened the home brew shop. And so we still have the home brew shop there today. And in 2008, he got a cold call for someone looking to sell a two barrel brewery, which is very small. It makes maybe four half barrels of beer at one time. And so Dan just on a whim bought it and started a brewery in 2008 and kind of been growing ever since 2008. This is our 10th year anniversary this year. Speaker 1 (01:59): Oh wow. That's awesome. Speaker 3 (02:01): Yeah. Go ahead. Speaker 1 (02:02): Oh, no, no. I was going to ask how did you get involved with it Personally? Speaker 3 (02:06): Personally, I started mopping the floors and stocking the shelves. Speaker 1 (02:09): Nice. Speaker 3 (02:11): It's a true underdog story, but I have my master's in marketing from uc, and I was just tired of working the jobs that I was working, so I was like, I'll just take this and see where it goes. And started doing the job I was hired to do and then also doing other stuff on top of that. And I think, like I said, I was hired to work two days a week and I don't think I've ever worked two days a week ever there. And that was six and a half years ago. Speaker 1 (02:36): How about you, Jared? Speaker 2 (02:38): I've been here Speaker 1 (02:40): Coming Speaker 2 (02:41): Up towards two years. In August. I came here from a startup I had up in Buffalo in, and I got kind of lucked into it. They started looking shortly after they found out that the brewer the last was leaving and just kind of worked out. I was looking for a change and they needed to change. Yeah. Speaker 1 (03:10): What does your job entail, your head brewer? Is that what he said? Okay. Speaker 2 (03:16): I mean, it's a lot of planning, scheduling, inventory maintenance, just kind of ordering. And then on top of that, just other physical jobs. A lot of janitorial work really is basically being a brewer is making sure things are clean and sanitary and basically yeast does a lot of the work. We just kind of let it do its work. And then a lot of it's just making sure things are sanitary, making sure you're minimizing problems, making sure you're minimizing oxygen pickup in the beer. It's pretty much, I mean, it sounds fairly boring, but every day is just a new crisis. Something goes wrong, just gets guaranteed. Every brewery of every day has a crisis every single day that needs to be resolved. Something goes down, something electrical goes wrong, a hose breaks, just anything, pretty much anything you can think of, something's going to go wrong. And a lot of it is playing catch up to those things and just trying to make sure that everything's more or less what you're planning it to do. Speaker 1 (04:20): And how did you get involved in brewing in general? Speaker 2 (04:24): I went to school for psychology and graduated 2007, 2008. So just one recession became super exciting for everybody, so it was very, very hard to find anything in that field that was worth it. Especially in New Jersey too. There's a lot of scandal that's involved around a lot of the third party social work companies that exist almost always a problem, and they're getting investigated. So it's just not a great spot to get started in that. And of course, anyone who's a social worker, God bless you because you are not paid enough, but it's a very, very tough job and it takes a certain person to do that. And I don't know if that was certainly up my alley. Speaker 2 (05:10): I definitely wanted to, I wanted to continue education and everything, so I ended up applying to grad school eventually. And then when I did that, I had also been home brewing for a couple of years at that point and really became, I was a huge nerd into history and styles and everything, and just wanted to get serious about it. I enjoyed what I was doing when I was home brewing and just exploring styles and drinking beer in general. I mean, that's super hard to hate. But so then it just kind of worked out. And there was a program that just opened up recently in Canada at Niagara College that was a two year program for brewing. And I just on a lark, just decided to also apply to that alongside the grad schools. And when it came back, I had my choices and I decided to do that. Honestly, it makes more financial sense. Speaker 1 (06:05): It seems like this thing you probably wouldn't have imagined that that would ever be a career. I don't know your interest in brewing, was it just more of a hobby and then, Speaker 2 (06:15): I mean, I'd say beyond was at the point. It was beyond hobby, and I wanted to be serious about it. Sort of like every home brewer thinks that they can make better beer than everybody else. It's part of the illusion of home brewing to some degree of, oh, this make the best beer ever. And then you're solely just abused of that idea as you do understand how beer's made and the struggles and things you have to do, and as long as you're making good beer, you're doing a good job. And that's really what it comes down to because the market's going to like what the market's going to like and what you think is the best beer in the world, people probably might not spend money for it. So yeah, it is basically what it comes down to is you're able to do this process and you're going to be able to make beer that is not flawed and is good and hits the style guidelines that you're aiming for. And that's successful beer. That's a good beer. Okay. Yeah, that Speaker 3 (07:10): Was the short answer. Speaker 2 (07:14): Yeah, I can keep talking. Speaker 1 (07:15): Okay. That's the beauty of this is I can always cut anything out. So don't feel like you have to give me the short answer. I can always edit out what I Speaker 3 (07:24): No, we need to cut. Keep it to the short answer for Jared. Speaker 1 (07:27): Oh, okay. All right. Well, let's go to what we are drinking right now, which is the terracotta army beer that Lister Man is making right now in kind of partnership with the exhibition, which I don't know if we've ever had a beer before. I think this might be our first. Speaker 2 (07:50): We thought it was absolutely amazing that the art museum reached out to us and was interested in doing something that was pretty stellar, especially after Fiona. We're definitely riding high off of Fiona. God bless, Fiona. Speaker 1 (08:07): Probably a lot of people are thinking Fiona for, I'm sure that the zoo is very happy for Fiona. Absolutely. Right now. So what I'm interested in is how you translate something into a beer in a way. What made you sort of say, okay, this is what a terracotta army beer should taste like? Speaker 3 (08:31): So we started off by looking at what the season is. So the season is spring slash summer since we don't get spring anymore. So we were looking Speaker 1 (08:41): Right in Cincinnati. Speaker 3 (08:44): So we looked at something that would be a nice summer, nice easy drinking beer for the warm weather. So that kind of cuts out half of the beers styles style wise for us to have. And then from that, we were talking with the marketing department and some of the other things, and we're getting really well known for our IPAs. And so Jared, previously, I touched back to, in my memory, to a beer that Jared made back in the day. I was like, this beer will never work. And it turned out to be pretty good. It was a New England Red i p a, Speaker 1 (09:17): And Speaker 3 (09:17): I was like, well, the terracotta warriors are kind of red Speaker 1 (09:20): Clay. Speaker 3 (09:21): And so you could see in the beer it looks like reddish brown, Speaker 1 (09:25): But Speaker 3 (09:25): That's on purpose. Speaker 1 (09:26): Well, yeah. And that is kind of, well actually, I mean, yeah, the terracotta, the figures, they have kind of a variety of colors, but they're in that kind of reddish warm brown. There's a few, one of them has a really red face because some of the clay was from different areas. They made the bodies separate and then they would cast the heads. So sometimes the heads don't exactly match. That's pretty Speaker 2 (09:47): Cool. Speaker 1 (09:47): Yeah, they have. But yeah, it's that same kind of warm red. Yeah. Speaker 3 (09:51): So you want to take it from there? Speaker 2 (09:52): Yeah. I mean, in general, the way that I like to approach recipe formulation is I'm a huge fan of themes and thematically tying everything about that beer together, from what we put into it to what goes on the label and to how we talk about it, I think people respond well to unified themes and they feel more a part of what's happening. Speaker 2 (10:20): So especially with this. So yeah, we had to look at market concerns of, alright, what's going to sell? What's going to be sell fairly quickly for this beer? Make it popular and people enjoy it. And just IPAs in general are the thing that drives the market right now. It's like 30% of the market or some similar to that. So it's a very large part of the market is where this money goes towards. And then from there, we're thinking about how can we make this more than just a beer that's going to be released alongside the event and the exhibition, and then how do we take it to be more personal then? So we came on the idea of making the color similar to what the figures actually look like. Just have that imagery that is tied together and then just kind of going from there. And I think the label art in this was fantastic. I mean, how many people get to put historical sculptures up and not get sued? It's pretty awesome. Speaker 1 (11:23): Yeah, it's true. It's probably pretty unusual for a beer label to have sort of ancient art on it. Something from over 2000 years old. Yeah, Speaker 2 (11:33): That's just super cool. I mean, that really gets me excited about this and it's helps supporting a really phenomenal institution. And I mean, it's tying people together all over the world. This came literally from halfway across the world to make it here. And it was a big honor to just be asked to be involved with this. So we're pretty excited about this. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. Speaker 1 (11:57): Were there any other sort of decisions about the flavor that were specifics that you were kind of going for with it? And I'm asking because I feel like I am not smart enough for me. I don't have the language to describe what I'm tasting when I'm drinking. I'm just like, oh, it's beer. I like anything. I am sort of a person of not no taste, but close to it, whatever Speaker 2 (12:25): Taste is, whatever, as long as you enjoy what we're doing, it's all that matters. But as for we could have gotten real nerdy about this and tried to go back and look at what were the military rations, what was in the area, but unfortunately, I don't think it would be as quickly a seller. I'm all about that. And there's a fantastic historic styles of beer that are being produced by Dogfish Head and stuff like that. And they're Speaker 3 (12:56): Super, Speaker 2 (12:57): Very interesting and very good beers. But for our size, it doesn't make sense for us to go down that route. And because at the end of the day, we still need to just make sure we sell the beer and make a profit off of it really not that big. And so if we had say, we have another opportunity to do this and we've got more behind us going on, I would be more than happy to look at really taking historical ingredients and bringing it into this. But for intents and purposes, we're just trying to make a really good drinkable beer that thematically has the colors associated with the terracotta warriors and just trying to make something really good that people are going to enjoy. And especially for the art after dark event. And when they're here, I think the is selling them. Right. Yeah. Speaker 1 (13:46): Where else do you know where else people can get them or, Speaker 3 (13:50): I think they're all out. So right now, just in the tap room, we brought a 32 ounce crowler with us. Speaker 1 (13:56): So Speaker 3 (13:56): You can come get crowler and pints of that in the tap room. And actually next Wednesday we have Keep the Pint Night with the Terracotta Army. You come in and buy a pint of terracotta army and you get to keep the cool terracotta army pints we made. Speaker 1 (14:10): Oh, nice. For year. Speaker 2 (14:11): They're really cool glasses. Speaker 1 (14:12): Yeah, really nice. Yeah, I saw those do look really cool. Speaker 3 (14:15): And then dollar for each one of those go to go back to the art museum. Speaker 1 (14:20): Oh, that's awesome. It's Speaker 3 (14:20): A win-win for everybody. Speaker 1 (14:22): Thank you. Might be going into my paycheck. Speaker 3 (14:27): Hopefully it goes to the art, but no offense. Speaker 1 (14:29): Wow. Ouch. Coming at him, man. So what I thought we could do now is now that we've had a drink and loosen up, we can go to the galleries and I thought we could look at some other art and I would see if you could sort of translate it into beer for me. Speaker 2 (14:50): Sure. Speaker 1 (14:51): Okay. Alright. Awesome. Speaker 2 (14:52): That sounds fun. Speaker 1 (15:08): Alright, so we are in Gallery 1 24 and we've got a whole bunch of different artwork around us. And all of these have Cincinnati ties. They are all contemporary or kind of contemporary. I don't know where those definitions begin. And there's always a little fuzzy of like, well, what's contemporary? But I think we typically say stuff post seventies or eighties is usually gets lumped into contemporary for us. So we're actually standing right now, we're in front of a painting by Stuart Goldman, who's a Cincinnati artist, and this painting is called Fold. And so I was just thinking it might be fun to think about what kind of beer, if you had to translate a painting into a type of beer, what would it be? So I hope this works. So this painting, how would you describe this painting that we're looking at? Speaker 3 (16:06): I feel like there's a lot of pain in this painting. Speaker 1 (16:08): Pain, Speaker 3 (16:09): Yeah. Really someone's grieving. It looks like a guy might be over there in the red, right? There might be grieving like hared over thinking grieving on top of this face that kind of looks like he's looking down and being sad. Speaker 1 (16:22): Whoa. Speaker 3 (16:23): So maybe a fruited Berlin Vice. Very bright and vibrant and a Berlin vice is tart Speaker 1 (16:29): And Speaker 3 (16:29): Sour. So fruity, yet sour. Speaker 1 (16:31): Okay, I see. I don't get any kind of grief from this, but I mean, hey, there are no wrong reactions. That's interesting to me. This seems very joyous and it's all kind of bursting out at me and it's so bright, but Speaker 3 (16:46): It is very bright. Speaker 1 (16:47): Okay. So Speaker 3 (16:48): Definitely something fruity and very vibrant. When Speaker 1 (16:51): You said fruity, I kind of was like, yeah, I'm with you there. I was definitely thinking kind of summary, but I don't know. Speaker 3 (16:56): Well, Berlin advice is also summary too, so it fits in that realm as well. Speaker 1 (17:01): Jared, do you have any thoughts? Speaker 2 (17:03): Yeah, I'm just trying to take it in right now. It's like, oh, Jason went right for the throat on a Speaker 3 (17:10): Like this. I see something, I just have a feeling about it just go. Speaker 1 (17:14): I mean, I guess too, you could see that red is very bloody too. So I can see you going to that really strong emotion as well. It makes sense. It's really intense. So yeah, Speaker 3 (17:25): It just looks like it has two faces, one here. Obviously my hand gestures can be seen on this podcast and then one up there inside the other gesture, which are both looking down and both look very solemn. So that's where I kind of get that. I see Speaker 1 (17:39): No faces. So Speaker 3 (17:40): There's one right here, there's like two figures. This is the eye socket here, Speaker 1 (17:46): And then Speaker 3 (17:47): There's another figure right there with Speaker 1 (17:48): The hair. Yeah, I kind of get that. Yeah. Okay. I mean maybe I have no idea. I have not done extensive research on this painting. I'm having about the same sort of I know about as much as you do. Speaker 2 (18:04): Yeah. Mean Speaker 3 (18:05): Definitely. I actually wrote the book on Mr. Goldman. Speaker 1 (18:07): Oh, okay. Alright. Speaker 2 (18:08): He wrote the book. Speaker 3 (18:09): I'm just kidding. I've never seen this painting before in my life. Speaker 1 (18:11): Yes. Speaker 2 (18:12): I mean, I get a lot of abstract expressionism of something. I'm not sure what. Speaker 1 (18:19): Yeah, it's definitely largely an abstract painting. I mean, if you're seeing things in it, I think that's fair, but I don't think everyone is probably going to see the same things in it. Speaker 2 (18:29): It's true. I could definitely see just from the vibrancy of colors, some sort of additional flavoring, be it fruit, be it herbal, Speaker 1 (18:41): Be Speaker 2 (18:41): It something like that, that it, it's something. It definitely is a plus. It's something plus beer here for sure. Speaker 1 (18:49): Okay. Speaker 2 (18:50): I could see it. I mean, I got some nice tones on the right side of the painting. And then it's very interesting because sort of dividing the whole thing two or in twain is absence of color, Speaker 1 (19:07): This big kind of white area cuts Speaker 2 (19:08): Through it Speaker 1 (19:09): So Speaker 2 (19:09): I could see something. So there is some degree of severity in what we're seeing here. And then alongside blendings of color and kind of morphing in and out of particular colors and shades. So I could see, so with all that kind of going on, I'm feeling this is definitely a lower alcohol beer. I want to say this is in the realm of a lighter beer, so maybe a pilsner or lenner vice, something that's lighter, and then it's getting these additional expressions in what we would add to that. So I could see it being a fruit. I could see a passion fruit lime maybe, or a blood orange lime. I was Speaker 1 (19:57): Blood Speaker 2 (19:57): Orange here Speaker 1 (19:57): Too. I think it's probably just the bloodiness of the red with the citrusy orange color. I think I kept going there too, Speaker 2 (20:05): But I think with the absence of color and that it makes it crisp, makes it pop a little bit. So I'm thinking I could see a fruited pilsner because that pilsner's got that nice dry biscuity clean kind of malt background that you can then play with your color on top of that palette and just be nice, crisp. This whole thing feels very crisp and very, very succinct in its presentation. However you want to interpret it from there. You could probably go on and on, but I think just visually it's pretty crisp. Speaker 1 (20:37): Yeah, I think that's a good, yeah, no, I agree. I think that's a great way to describe it and a good parallel to a flavor that I probably wouldn't have thought of. That's really, I love that some of the words that you use to describe flavors are a lot of the same words that we end up using to describe art. So it is actually maybe a little bit easier to bring those in because you go, oh, well, this is kind of like this and it, there's more parallels there than you might imagine. Speaker 2 (21:05): Oh yeah. I mean some people have what synesthesia where they taste color and hear color and all that kind of stuff. So I mean there's definitely, I think the way that we describe, the way we use words describe things as far more than just a strict definition. And as long as people understand what you're trying to convey, I think that's the whole point of describing anything. So the words that we would use to describe beers, I think absolutely can be salient to describing what we're seeing. Speaker 1 (21:36): Yeah. Well, let's go on to this one right next to it. This was another one I think for me would taste very different. Oh Speaker 2 (21:43): Yeah. Speaker 1 (21:43): So I think I have an idea of what I think this would taste like, and I want to see if you guys agree. So we're looking at a painting by the artist named Jim Dine, who was from Cincinnati originally, went to school here and kind of became associated with the pop art movement. And this is his painting paint acting like a tree from 1980. Let's just start out by describing the painting and what we're looking at. Speaker 2 (22:12): Alright, so we're Speaker 1 (22:14): Seeing Speaker 2 (22:15): A very large canvas, very large piece center of it is what I would probably describe as trunk of a tree that goes up into two distinct thick branches that then spider off into many, many other branches painted against the background of blue green, very kind of calming, passive kind of background. And there's a whole mess of dark reds, purples, dark browns, almost blacks, maybe navys. And then on top of that there is some metallics, like silvers. So Speaker 1 (22:56): A bunch of Speaker 2 (22:57): Silvers that are very interesting, especially when you think about tree and something that is a boreal. I don't exactly leap to silver. So I think that's a very interesting juxtaposition Speaker 1 (23:11): To Speaker 2 (23:11): Have that on the parts of what this tree is. Speaker 1 (23:15): Yeah, it's a commentary Speaker 2 (23:16): On something. I'm not sure what though. Speaker 1 (23:19): Well, I mean it's called paint acting like a tree. So I think it's very much, at least from the title he wants us to be aware of, we're looking at something that is a representation of something else. It's, this is not a pipe kind of idea of you're looking at a painting of a pipe, not a pipe. And so it's like, okay, this is paint acting like a tree. So it's almost like to me, he wants us to be aware of the image of a tree and of it as just an abstract painting simultaneously. Maybe it's about getting in that place that's somewhere between those two things of both at the same time. How far can I push it into representation while still feeling something totally abstract maybe? Speaker 3 (24:07): Yeah. So what I see with this is pushing the boundaries. It's not just a tree, it's not just a painting. It's kind of somewhere in between there and trying to get the viewer to really look at those sort of things. So type of beer that I think would suit this is something that's right in our wheelhouse, and I think that's either a hazy i p a or a pastry stout. So just until recent, hear me out, Jared, just until wait, very disparate. Well, just until recently, very disparate beers, hazy New England IPAs weren't really a style. They were just kind of the bastard stepchild of beer styles and beer in the United States. And just maybe a month ago, it finally got accepted as a style within the craft beer guidelines. So it lives somewhere in between reality and perception and the style guidelines. And Speaker 1 (24:55): So Speaker 3 (24:55): I think that fits pastry status kind of there too. There's really a pastry stout, something that tastes like a pastry is a stout, so kind of self-explanatory there. Speaker 1 (25:04): I think the stout, maybe I was going in that direction in my brain too, of just something very dark and smoky or something that was kind of where I also just the compared to this painting we look, which we kept describing as crisp Speaker 2 (25:20): And Speaker 1 (25:20): Citrusy, and I feel like this is none of that, right? It's sort of something totally Speaker 3 (25:25): Different. It's definitely more on the dark side, but it is more or less figuring out a style that's not really defined. It's somewhere kind of in between two things and kind of, some people hate it because it's not a tree and some people hate it because it's not art. It's kind of somewhere in between and there's a certain group of people that kind of love that beer and that painting being somewhere in between. And I think that's kind what the pastry stout is. Speaker 1 (25:50): Okay. Jared, what do you think? Speaker 2 (25:52): Yeah, this is definitely a Baltic porter. Speaker 1 (25:54): Definitely a Baltic Speaker 2 (25:55): Porter. Definitely a Baltic porter. Speaker 1 (25:56): And why Speaker 2 (25:58): Baltic porter is, I mean just historically too, it was taking a style from another country and so basically image of this tree is this supposed to be a tree, but it clearly is not just a tree. So we're taking something that it's acting like a tree. Yes. So we're taking something that is being borrowed from another country that slowly kind of changes and morphs and just the fact they're big, dark beers and can have somewhat of array of flavors. But in general, and I like their darker smokier and it's the general feeling I get from this painting in general is kind of brooding, very thoughtful, monolithic, and I think that fits very well with the idea of what a Baltic porter is. Speaker 1 (26:51): Okay. Yeah, I was thinking Porter would also be sort of in the range of where my flavor went with this too, but you guys know more about the beer side of things. So let's go. Let's just go, since we're right here, let's flip over to this piece right here. Yeah, this one is fun. This is kind of a new acquisition for us. We've had it since 2014. This is by again, an artist who was born here in this area, Tom Wesselman, and also was associated with the pop art movement. This is a later piece of his from, but similar time period to the last one we looked at in 1985 to 90 it says. So just kind of odd. We don't know for sure for something that, or maybe he was working on it for all that times. That might be why it's got a range. There is because he might've started it earlier and was developing these, I know these pieces. He was working on this technique of these cutouts. If you look at it, it looks like just a sketch when you come in the gallery, but it's like a sketch that is hanging on the wall and the white of the paper that you might see in a notebook or something is just the gallery wall. So it's really cool because it's this freestanding sketch and it feels incredibly fragile when you Speaker 2 (28:11): Oh, it's so Speaker 1 (28:11): Delicate. Yeah. I'm Speaker 2 (28:13): Surprised it's not broken. Speaker 1 (28:14): Yeah, it's on cut steel. So I mean, I think there is probably not quite as fragile as it looks, so I'm sure we do, Speaker 2 (28:22): But it's so big. Speaker 1 (28:23): Yeah, I know. It's true. It's like the bigger it gets in that, just those thin little lines, it is a little bit like Speaker 2 (28:29): I'd be very nervous putting this up. Speaker 1 (28:31): Yeah, it makes very precious feeling to me because of that. And this is barn near Hilltop airport. This is too challenging for me. I don't know what I would come up with for a beer for this. Do you guys have any ideas? Speaker 2 (28:45): Oh yeah. I think this is pretty straightforward. I mean, so it's a depiction of a kind of farmhouse but very minimalist list, so it's very clean. So right off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a table farmhouse beer. Pretty Speaker 3 (29:01): Straightforward. I knew that's where you were going to go. I don't think it's that straightforward. Speaker 1 (29:04): Oh, Speaker 2 (29:06): So it can either be a very low BBB table, farmhouse style, since it's quite vibrant. I would say maybe some fruit edition or just something that is a little more vibrant, that's an addition to the hops yeast and Speaker 1 (29:22): Kind of brings out the kind of colorful flowers down there and stuff. Yeah, there's nice little pops of color, Speaker 2 (29:28): But we could also look at it as, since all the colors are quite vibrant and big, that could even be, we could turn that into a higher strength farmhouse style. I would say it could go either way, but off the top of my head I would've to say just a table farmhouse style. Speaker 1 (29:49): Okay. Speaker 3 (29:49): I'm going to take this in kind of a different direction than Jared. So this reminds me of a summer, summer day. There's flowers out, everything's green. So it's obviously not in the fall or wintertime. It looks hot. I feel hot when I'm looking at this picture just because I can imagine there's no shade really where we are, everything's white, so there's no colored in shade. I feel like I'm in the sun and I'm hot and there's one type of beer I want drink when I'm in that, and that's like a lager or pilsner. And so to cool me down, but also because of the fragility of the painting, making a lager or pilsner is probably one of the hardest things any brewery can do because if you mess up, it's so light. You're able to tell and the taste of the beer almost immediately. If it's not a good IPAs, you can hide flaws with hops and stouts. You can hide stuff with adjuncts. But with pilsners and loggers, there's really no hiding anything. The beer is what it is. And with this, especially the way it's laid out, we talked about how, I'm just nervous looking at it. I feel like I'm going to break it by looking at it. So because of that, the hot summer day out on the farm doing yard work and the fragility of the whole painting makes me feel like a logger Pilsner would be a great representation of this. Speaker 1 (31:09): All right. Okay. Well, let's go. I think we can, I don't know if we should do every single piece in the room, so I'm going to skip. We do have one sculpture in the room, and because he's not turned on right now, I don't want to focus on him because we're not really getting the full picture. And we will come back to him maybe one day for another show. So we've got three other paintings and I'm going to let you guys choose which one you kind of go to first. So they're all pretty different. Well, two have maybe some similarities. Which one jumps out at you? And I guess you guys could take different ones. You don't have to say. Speaker 2 (31:43): Well, I mean definitely one painting is clearly the visual eye catch for jumping out Speaker 1 (31:50): This one over here. Yeah. Yeah. I was kind of curious. This would've been probably the one I would've suggested. I was curious what you had translated. So this is by Julian Stanek, subordinate to Yellow is the title of this piece from 1967 to 68. And it is an, it's kind of what we would think of a pretty typical art. So we have these very straight Speaker 2 (32:15): Geometric Speaker 1 (32:16): Lines of really high contrasting colors that sort of vibrate when you look at the painting because that green against that kind of Speaker 2 (32:28): Reddish Speaker 1 (32:29): Magenta color. And then with the, it's even sometimes it's hard to tell what colors you're actually looking at in it because there's so much going on there. But that kind of blue and the green and the reddish color, they sort of create all these different colors as they cross each other. So yeah, it is definitely one that would also, I feel like taste very different than anything else we've probably looked at. Speaker 3 (32:58): This one's quite challenging. Speaker 1 (32:59): Yeah, nothing pops out right away too. Speaker 3 (33:01): There's nothing in beer that screams pink. Speaker 2 (33:04): Oh, well, I mean, yeah, it's obviously a fruit edition Speaker 3 (33:07): Or something besides that I Speaker 2 (33:10): Think, I can't remember, is it bamboo? There's something that has a very vibrant kind of neon color that when you add it in, I'm just seeing this, this definitely just strikes me as, I mean part of me also, this thinks of eighties Miami vice kind of color palette thing going on. Just very high intensity kind of colors. I dunno. I'm definitely seeing a big, clean, sour beer with a lot of fruit. Speaker 1 (33:50): I can see the sourness where Speaker 2 (33:52): You're getting that. Speaker 1 (33:52): Seeing it. Yeah, there's a sort of Speaker 2 (33:56): The intensity. Speaker 1 (33:57): The intensity as well as almost there's kind of an acidity to that green in there that that makes a lot of sense as a sour flavor when I look at it, Speaker 2 (34:09): And I think there's not, is there actual yellow in this or is this simply the illusion of the colors together? Speaker 1 (34:16): I think that is purely an illusion. The idea of the yellow that's kind of coming out I think is just happening in our brains. I didn't Speaker 3 (34:25): Even notice yellow until you said yellow, and now it's all I can see. Speaker 2 (34:28): Yeah, I mean, I was originally thinking, why is this called subordinate to yellow when you first glanced at it? And just the more you look at it, the more, I guess it's just playing with your optics and just Speaker 1 (34:42): Yeah, when you get up close, you can see there isn't no yellow. Speaker 2 (34:46): Not at Speaker 1 (34:46): All. It's pretty directly. As you get up close, it kind of makes your eyes do even weirder things sometimes. It's like, oh my gosh, when you get back, actually, it makes it a little bit more comfortable to look at because those little tiny green stripes that pop out between the layers, they're so intense looking. Speaker 2 (35:06): Yeah, I mean, I could definitely see just basically this would be in my mind, an imperial sour beer with a couple different things playing together that give you a different flavor than what you'd expect. So I think that would be the trick to executing a beer off of this would be create something better than the sum of its parts that do something completely different. Some kind of synergistic effect. Speaker 1 (35:30): Yeah. If you were to just say, oh, I'm going to make a painting and it's going to be red, green, and blue, that's not at all what we're looking at. Right? It's something way more complicated than what it is made out of. So yeah, I think you're spot on with that. Any other thoughts on this one? My brain kind of hurts looking at this. Well, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. It almost needs to be something that is a little bit like Speaker 2 (35:52): Garish almost. Speaker 1 (35:53): Yeah. When you said sour, I was that sort of physical reaction of Ooh, a little bit. It almost needs to be a little painful to drink. Speaker 2 (36:02): Yeah. Maybe it goes, maybe imperial goes. So you got that salinity on it too. I think it's a little weird for a lot of people who are beer drinkers that don't drink a lot of other styles. I use other weirder things like coriander and such. But yeah, I could see that happening with this. Speaker 1 (36:25): It's interesting because it's both, while we're talking a lot about the colors, which do a lot of really extreme things, compositionally, it's actually sort of zen and very calming too. So it is a weird mix of lots of different feelings. It's a Speaker 2 (36:39): Very bizarre juxtaposition on itself. Speaker 1 (36:41): Yeah. Yeah. This was the only one I wondered. Is this almost too easy? So this is Joseph Mariani's light image right here. I mean, is it too basic? Is it too, Speaker 2 (36:58): No, I mean, I think the point of this that it appears basic, but it's not. Right. Speaker 1 (37:03): Right. Yeah. I mean this also is one almost, I felt like I was worried, is this too easy in that it's a big yellow painting, so it kind of just feels like, it's like it's already the color of beer. It's like, does it maybe make you have to do a lot of work? But we've talked about this a lot in the show of this sort of paintings that fall into the category that a lot of people would be like, well, my kid could do that sort of realm. And because this is this very flat color field painting, but it's, it is more complicated than you say. And I think a lot of it is about that light that's going through the paint and bouncing back at us and the different layers. And you can see those edges where you have some of those different little shades of yellow that pop out and the way the colors are layered on top of each other. It is very subtle while at first appearing very basic. Speaker 2 (38:02): I mean, just for me, just kind of sitting looking at it for a bit, I just think that if this were to be a beer, it would be a well-executed hef of bison. And I say it has to be well-executed because the purpose of, I mean, at a glance, this seems like a big old bunch of yellow, but the more you look at it, the more you spend time with it, you can see that there is distinct, very well-designed changes and variations. And that's why I just feel like it is all the one color and the heins I think are very specific to their flavor profile. So that would remind me of it. Also, it's yellow and banana. Speaker 3 (38:49): I mean, is this bright, obviously yellow to you guys? Speaker 1 (38:53): I mean, the middle section is bright, the edges are a little kind of almost muddier and a little Speaker 2 (39:01): Mustard. Speaker 3 (39:01): This looks way more orange than yellow to me. Speaker 1 (39:05): I can see that there are parts that are definitely dipping into the orange when I look at the edge there. I guess to be fair, it is probably, you could call this a yellow orange, probably is why we're seeing it. We're falling on one side or the other because it is, it's like that, somebody was having this debate with me recently about when people call yellow cheese or something and they're like, but that's orange. They were like, and I think it's a similar, that's Speaker 3 (39:32): Exactly what this kind of looks like. Speaker 1 (39:33): It is the same color of a sort of craft single. I can Speaker 3 (39:36): See both, but then I look at it in a different way. I was like, no, that's definitely orange. Speaker 1 (39:40): Yeah. Speaker 3 (39:41): Which just makes, we talked about earlier about, and sorry to interrupt Jared's story here, but we talked a little bit earlier about how beer is perceived differently by everybody. And here we are having a discussion if this painting is two different colors, and it's probably one of the more simple paintings that we've seen today, and we Speaker 1 (39:57): Were having a Speaker 3 (39:58): Debate over Speaker 1 (39:58): What color it's Speaker 3 (39:59): Right. So it's beauty in its own that it may seem simple from the get-go, but there's a lot more to it than so it seems if you spend that 30 seconds to a minute looking at it Speaker 1 (40:10): Well, and the complications, the sort of layers to it that you're discussing is another part of it that I think people take for granted is how purposeful the surface Speaker 2 (40:19): Is Speaker 1 (40:19): Of it. It's Speaker 2 (40:20): Very deliberate Speaker 1 (40:22): And it's got this very kind of gently modeled surface. And I think if you gave a bunch of people some paint and the canvas and the exact same paint the artisans and make this, I think they would find it a lot harder than they would. And part of it would be to get that surface exactly as it is here. It's very, very careful and it's very, Speaker 2 (40:45): It's textured. It wants to be textured. Speaker 1 (40:47): And he's removed the traces of how he did it in a way too. I mean, I'm sure it's rollers and things, but it's very carefully that surface is adding to the effect of the light Speaker 3 (41:02): On Speaker 1 (41:02): The painting and that it's adding another little thing for the light to bounce off of. And it's even casting little shadows on the painting itself, which are when there's so little in the painting to look at, that becomes part of the subject of the painting. Really. Speaker 2 (41:15): Yeah. I think it's kind of like it was Van Gogh that really kind of brought that to the forefront with the very thick textured. Yeah. Speaker 1 (41:23): He's kind of playing off what the impressionists were doing a little bit before that in that thick and pasta paint that they're throwing on very quickly and making, and it's like that was done in this very expressionistic, passionate way. And here it's using the texture of the paint in this very kind of cool, removed, but very calculated and intentional way. Yeah. Alright. Any other thoughts? Speaker 3 (41:50): Well, when we first walked in this room, I was just like vanilla orange, blonde dale on a creamsicle. Speaker 1 (41:59): Okay. Speaker 3 (42:00): So if you look at just this highlighted part in the middle, again, I see this as orange. So just kind of a big block of orange bursting out of the picture and just looking obviously without the vanilla bottom at the end at the bottom, but just kind of looking like a orange creamsicle on a stick just with a middle popping out like that. Speaker 1 (42:19): Okay. Yeah, I can see that. And that kind of, again, you're going in that orange direction still. So where we Yes, Speaker 3 (42:25): This painting is orange Don don't believe what they have to say. It is orange, yellow. I stand over here, it looks a little bit more yellow, Speaker 1 (42:34): And Speaker 3 (42:35): Then I stand back over here. It looks more orange than yellow. Speaker 1 (42:38): Yeah, I think you're right. I think it is probably firmly in the middle of the two colors. And for me, I do still, if I came in this room, I would go yellow, but I can see where you're coming from and especially when I look at this one stripe Speaker 3 (42:51): On Speaker 1 (42:51): The side, that's Speaker 3 (42:51): What really sells me. It orange Speaker 1 (42:52): Orange right there. It definitely does lean into the orange side on that part, but I think it is the Speaker 3 (42:56): Other stripe, but it's more yellow than orange and then it's kind of back to the square wall. Speaker 1 (43:00): Yeah. Yeah. Alright, well, I mean, I guess we do only have one more painting in this room that we haven't talked about. It's true. It feels kind of weird to leave it out at this Speaker 3 (43:11): Point as well, Speaker 1 (43:12): Doesn't it? Yeah. So this is called Column by Ong y Kim who also local artists who, we actually had a show of her paintings in this gallery. So this painting was a part of those and was surrounded by her works. So what would you go with here? Or maybe again, we should describe it a little bit first in sort of painting terms. And this one is probably one of the, I guess the painting of the tree maybe has a little more sense of a representation than some of the ones we're looking at. And then it seems to clearly be a space, we see this sort of room that has a column in it, some suggestions of doorways, but it's very expressive in it's paint, the way it's painted. It's very brushy, it's also very translucent. So we have all these kind of thin layers that we're seeing. It's kind of feels very drawn in a way that we're seeing the canvas underneath reflecting light back at us in certain parts. And then we also have bits of text and writing on top of it too in Korean. So, hey man, this one, I would not know what to necessarily, what this would taste like. I mean, the color palette is all very kind of wood, kind of the color of the wood and stuff, and the kind of dark reds and things. I Speaker 2 (44:44): Mean, I feel it's got colored Speaker 3 (44:47): Choice, Speaker 2 (44:47): Gives it a heaviness and a weight. But in the same time, the way it's presented, there's some lighter areas that make it also seem ethereal at the same time. So I mean, that's kind of a hard thing to try and unify. And then on top of that, you've got kind of ghost, I guess it's a ghost calligraphy, ghost writing that seems there's some very heavy dark lines with it and there's some very light ones. So I mean it's playing with that same idea I guess from earlier of weight with weight without weight kind of thing. It's like a heavy weightlessness. Speaker 1 (45:28): That's a great way to describe this painting. There's something, again, I'm getting maybe a smokiness to it as well from all those dark black areas in the way they kind of smoke out and sort of trail off, again, that words that are very ethereal. I guess smoke is also something sort. It's a Speaker 3 (45:47): Hard to grasp. People get paid with these Speaker 2 (45:49): Words and I feel like, I can't tell if this is supposed to be a mirror image sort of with, there's sort of what I would say is a door area that may or may not be mirrored across the painting. And this is fairly complicated. I'd say this would not be a simple beer, this would be something big, probably something that would be aged on wood. It may or may not have a smoke component like you were saying earlier. Speaker 1 (46:25): There's just subtle kind of pinks and stuff too. It is really hard to, because nothing is, everything is almost there. And that's probably why it's a little more of a challenge too. Yeah. There's more color the more you look at it. Speaker 2 (46:39): Yeah. I mean it's really dark, but outside the areas where it gets a little bit lighter, there's a lot of vibrancy to it. Not a ton of vibrancy, but for what the feeling of the painting, I feel like it's very joyous, comparative to a lot of the very heavy, dark, Speaker 1 (47:01): I mean the pink I just pointed out kind of here in the lower left corner, it's in the context of this painting that pink feels very bright. Yes. Speaker 2 (47:10): In Speaker 1 (47:10): The context of the Stewart Goldman painting right next to it. It feels very muted. Yes, quite muted. Speaker 3 (47:16): It's hard looking at it. Your peripherals are all colored the crazy. We have this great orange painting over here to the left and yellow, and we have Speaker 1 (47:24): All these crazy Speaker 3 (47:25): Colors to the right. And you're right, it does kind of get brighter as more you look at it, but it's really hard in the context. You have to get almost put blinders on to kind of keep the other colors out of your face. In Speaker 1 (47:37): This room it starts to feel very brown, but in reality, I'm seeing some more blues and greens in there kind of hidden, but they're very, very subtle. Speaker 3 (47:46): It's warming up a lot. It's really opening up. Speaker 2 (47:49): I could definitely see, I mean, in deference to the originating country of the artist now, I could see this being imperial barrel age stout utilizing some traditional spicing from Korea. Speaker 1 (48:04): Okay. That could be interesting. Yeah, Speaker 2 (48:06): I think there's some spicy, smoky, I can see Speaker 1 (48:10): That, Speaker 2 (48:10): Yeah. Yeah. Spices that they use. So I could see that just being on top, just adding that into the barrel Speaker 1 (48:17): Before we're done Speaker 2 (48:18): With it. Speaker 1 (48:18): And I don't think that's wildly inappropriate because again, with the Korean writing, I feel like that kind of brings it back in. Speaker 2 (48:24): Oh yeah. It's definitely placed in a specific culture because of that. I think some of the spicing that we've used and previously they're similar in color. There's little flex of red in between these, the more browns and dark browns that you'll get from certain spices. Speaker 1 (48:49): Any other thoughts on this one? Speaker 3 (48:52): No, I really like, there's a bunch of wood in this painting, so I think Jared nailed it with the barrelage character of it. Maybe like a roasty or smoky, two words I don't like very much, but a roastier and smoky type Speaker 1 (49:05): Of, they just overused. Speaker 3 (49:06): I have a roast and smoke sensitivity in my palette, so Speaker 1 (49:10): If Speaker 3 (49:10): I try that, it kind of envelops my whole Speaker 1 (49:12): Taste Speaker 3 (49:12): Of it. So I don't really like that in our beers, but I could definitely see how this would lend itself to that roast and smoke characteristics. Speaker 1 (49:21): Definitely. That sounds about right to me too. Well, thanks so much, guys. This has been so fun to, Speaker 3 (49:25): It's been a lot of fun Speaker 1 (49:26): To look at paintings in a totally different way than I ever have before. Speaker 3 (49:29): Yeah, thanks for, Speaker 2 (49:30): I mean, and the idea was pitched me, I was like, that sounds hilarious. Let's do that. Speaker 1 (49:35): Awesome. Sounds a Speaker 2 (49:36): Good time. Speaker 1 (49:37): Yeah, no, I had a great time. Thanks again. Speaker 3 (49:39): Same time next week. Speaker 2 (49:41): Yeah, thanks for having us. Absolutely. Speaker 1 (49:44): Sure. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. The special exhibitions on view right now are William KenRidge More sweetly Play the Dance, Ragnar Denson, the visitors and scenes from Western culture and terracotta army legacy of the first emperor of China. Become inspired by the terracotta army and create your own clay figure with visionaries and voices, artist Perez at our artist workshop on Saturday, May 19th at 1:00 PM. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Efron Mu by Balal. And as always, please rate and review us on iTunes. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.