Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace, the best of Art Palace. Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. In honor of International Podcast Day today, we have a special best of episode with clips from the past two years. It's a great way to introduce new people to the show, so maybe share it with somebody who's never given podcasts a try. The first clip is from episode 16 with Travis McElroy from my brother, my Brother and Me, the Adventure Zone, and many other podcasts. So this room we call the Cincinnati Art Carved Furniture Room. Obviously a lot of furniture around 

Speaker 2 (01:14):
You have picked a very good room for me for a lot of reasons. 

Speaker 1 (01:17):
So what are those reasons? 

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Reason number one, I've done a lot of carpentry in my life. 

Speaker 2 (01:22):
I worked in my scene shop in college, and then I was the technical director of Master Carpenter for the Cincinnati Shakespeare company, and I built a lot of stage furniture there. I am also a big fan of the Antiques Roadshow, so this is conjuring a lot of feelings like that. For me. Also, I have a lot of strong feelings about, well, the modern furniture. And I actually had a conversation with Roman Mars about, he guessed on a show I have called, surprisingly Nice. And we talked about bad design that we liked, and one of them is the Ikea, the furniture with the Snap together, anyone can do it Furniture. And the thing is, on the one level, I love that furniture because it's so cost effective and anybody can do it. And there's a lot of different options. And I've moved a bunch, and every time I do, I'm like, Ugh, I love that this is made out of corkboard and M D F, and I can break it down and carry it down the stairs by myself. But the thing is, nothing I own right now is going to be a thing that my children's, children's children, children, children, whatever, display. And so when I watch Antiques Roadshow, I always think the same thing, which is like, do I own anything than in a hundred years? People are like, well, this is a very interesting piece. No. They'd be like, okay, this is just a desk that costs $99 at ikea. Well, I don't care about this. It's worth nothing now. 

Speaker 2 (02:53):
So I look at these pieces and here's what I love. Here's what I love about furniture art and carved furniture art. Now when it's sitting up on these plinths and they have little labels on them and there's lights on 'em and everything, it's like, ah, what a beautiful art piece. But when they existed out into the wild, somebody put their clothes in that 

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Somebody 

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Leaned on that mantle, somebody slept in that bed, somebody painted on that, somebody displayed their books in that bookcase in their own house. And so to us, it's a beautiful art piece, but to whoever owned it, it was a thing that completed their home. And you might say, well, that's true of a lot of paintings. That's true of a lot of works. It's like, yes, but also nobody opened those paintings every day to get a book out of it or to put their China into it or to get their clothes out of it. So it's not only very attractive, they're very beautiful, but it also has practicality designed into it, and you have to get good as opposed to, I don't know a lot about painting, but as opposed to brush strokes, you also have to worry about structural integrity. So it's not just like, is this pretty, it's also is it going to fall apart 

Speaker 1 (04:08):
If 

Speaker 2 (04:08):
I open the door? 

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Our next clip is from my conversation with artist Brittany b. Neighbor in episode 44, which was one of my favorite episodes so far. You are probably, so I was thinking about this. You were probably actually the first podcast host. I actually knew in a 

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Way 

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Because you were 

Speaker 3 (04:40):
Hosting 

Speaker 1 (04:40):
A stutter cast. 

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, it was a podcast called Stutter Talk. 

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Stutter Talk, okay. 

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah. It was during the time of, so I was a covert stutter growing up. 

Speaker 1 (04:52):
This is so fascinating. I remember when you told me this and I was just 

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Like, 

Speaker 1 (04:55):
What? I did not understand. First of all, I remember when you said, I'm a stutterer, and I was like, no, you're not. 

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, I could hide it really well. 

Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's so crazy. 

Speaker 3 (05:04):
And I actually just finished up around a speech therapy two weeks ago. 

Speaker 1 (05:09):
You're still like, 

Speaker 3 (05:11):
So 

Speaker 1 (05:11):
What is, this is so fast. I love this. And that's why I remember when you telling me, oh, I'm hosting this podcast and I am a guest host, and you'd been on it, and I would listen to it, and I was just so intrigued by it because it was this whole world that I knew nothing about. And the whole, I don't know, it was just a very empowering, I don't know. I thought it was really empowering story to me. Thank 

Speaker 3 (05:34):
I really appreciate that. 

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, 

Speaker 3 (05:36):
And I think I had just recently in the past couple of years, a lot of problem, well, a lot of almost inner questions about my identity as a human who speaks, am I a stutter? Am I fluent? You know what I mean? And just straddling both of those worlds. And we had a couple therapy sessions with my speech pathologist because it felt so weird. I can be, I'm obviously really fluent right now, and I can be really fluent for months, and then somebody will switch and I will, and I'll be really disfluent. Yeah. For a couple months. So stuttering, it's a cyclical thing. And yeah, it was something that when I was little, when you stuttered and you see people's reactions or the way that children, or the way that your peers kind of react to and you get the signal, oh, this is something that I shouldn't do. 

Speaker 1 (06:44):
You 

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Know what I mean? And not necessarily anybody told me, don't do that. It's just those cues that people give you about something about you. You know what I mean? And then you're like, well, this is something I need to not share. So I developed tools of, I became a covert stutter, and there's people out there whose own spouses don't even know that they stutter because they're able to hide it so well. So I would use word substitution if I felt a stutter coming on, and I probably did this with you in my early twenties, if I felt like I was going to stutter on a certain word, I would change the word 

Speaker 1 (07:27):
Which ones are trigger it or 

Speaker 3 (07:29):
For sure. 

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yes. That's so cool. I mean, it's crazy. It's insane. I don't know. And I think at the moment when I was listening to this, I did not understand my sexuality very well. And I think I am a person who I feel like I have no coming out story because I have a million. And actually, I think about listening to that as actually a really important part of me recognizing as you're sitting there saying this stuff about, you recognize when you get these sort of negative feedback from others and that changes how you behave. 

Speaker 3 (08:09):
And 

Speaker 1 (08:10):
It's like that is the queer experience for a lot of people is basically you do something and you're sort of chastised for it, and in ways that people maybe don't even realize they're doing it in these really small ways that are not, for me personally, I don't think I had a ton of people who were really policing my behavior in a way that was super overt or any way, but it was just very subtle 

Speaker 3 (08:38):
For sure. And 

Speaker 1 (08:39):
That changes what you want to put out there in the world. And so it really resonated with me when you were talking about that. I was like, oh my God, I totally understand this. And then even the thing when I remember you telling me, oh yeah, I'll make myself stutter. 

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, that was a way for me too, because even my mom always told me, you're going to grow out of it. You're going to grow out of it. So even when I was in college, I had this idea in my head that I was going to grow out of it. You know what I mean? And I had this moment where I was at work and I was 26, and I was like, holy, I don't know if I can, 

Speaker 1 (09:20):
I do keep it for all audiences. So I appreciate this is a censor concept. 

Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yes. 

Speaker 1 (09:24):
I 

Speaker 3 (09:24):
Was like, holy cow, I am a grownup and I still do this. And I had that realization that it wasn't going to go away. You know what I mean? So I was like, I have to figure out a way to live with this because I didn't want to hide it anymore. It was tiring. It's so tiring. 

Speaker 1 (09:43):
Oh my gosh. And that's just, again, it's totally a coming out story in this weird way because that is what everyone describes is the burden of the secret and the burden of, I remember telling somebody here one time, I was like, you know what? The best part about coming out is you can just listen to whatever music you want too. I love that. I feel like there would definitely be things that was, and it's really strange because I've always been sort of a weirdly flamboyant person in certain aspects, but then I feel like there would be certain things where I was like, I like this, but I don't want to admit that I like this because I think it's way too gay. This song is too gay for me to, and that is a crazy thing. But I really do think about it all the time when I'm just listening to whatever I want. I'm, because it would also be that kind of internal struggle too. I don't think I would have a lot of secret things I listen to. It would just be like, I would remove that from the options almost. Like, well, I can't listen to that. It was too gay. 

Speaker 1 (10:54):
But anyway, I don't even remember where I just stole the point. But 

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Well, I think, and I don't know if you experienced this, so I started teaching at the art Academy last fall, and it was weird to go back there not being, because I was a covert stutter at the art academy, a student, and now I was going back to the art academy, not a covert kind of like, you know what I mean? So it was kind of weird. It caused me some anxiety to kind of have this new identity, even though nobody caress and nobody's thinking about it. 

Speaker 1 (11:27):
But I think that's exactly the same thing with sexuality, because in general, especially when 

Speaker 3 (11:31):
You're 

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Talking about a place that's so progressive and liberal, obviously nobody cares. It's all in your own head. Nobody actually caress. I 

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Was just worried about having a huge block and staring out a word and somebody looking at me being like, what happened to you? Yeah. Were you in an accident or So 

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Were the pressures of teaching, did that in public speaking make it harder for you? Or is it just I 

Speaker 3 (12:05):
Think for sure. And I think the idea of going back to a place where it had a different identity, that is the one that I have now. Even though it's me, even though it's a small part of me, obviously the way that I speak or the way that anybody speaks is a very small part of who they are. I still having some anxiety about it, 

Speaker 1 (12:32):
And then that probably, does that make it worse? Does 

Speaker 3 (12:34):
The anxiety? 

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, 

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Of course it does. And when a person decides to not be covert anymore, to not be a covert stutter, their stuttering increases. 

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Oh, really? 

Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yes. Because it's almost like, yeah, you, you're trying to suppress something 

Speaker 1 (12:53):
For 

Speaker 3 (12:53):
So long that you get skilled at it. You know what I mean? And then once you make the decision to not do that anymore, it has the freedom to be what it is. 

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (13:08):
It's just impossible for me to not make these parallels constantly with sexuality when you 

Speaker 3 (13:13):
Talk about it. Yeah. Well, I was making those same parallels in my speech therapy that I just finished. 

Speaker 1 (13:19):
You 

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Know what I mean? Those same parallels, 

Speaker 1 (13:22):
The experience of it. And as you talk about it, you're just like, oh my God. It resonates so strongly with me in that way. And even the idea of, I think presenting in that sort of covert and not covert and the language of that, and even the way that homophobia kind of creeps in that I have to consciously not be sort of judgmental towards somebody who is super flamboyant 

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Or 

Speaker 1 (13:55):
There's this idea of when you've built in hiding so long 

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Into 

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Your life 

Speaker 3 (14:02):
That 

Speaker 1 (14:04):
You start to be, how dare they not hide? I was like, that's almost the idea. I think on some level, and you'll see that kind of judgment come through in a lot of gay men, especially I think about what they perceive as overly effeminate behavior, but I feel like it's always more about them than it is the other person. It's more about, oh, for 

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Sure. 

Speaker 1 (14:30):
You're just deeply uncomfortable, of 

Speaker 3 (14:32):
Course, with 

Speaker 1 (14:33):
That side of yourself, 

Speaker 3 (14:34):
And 

Speaker 1 (14:34):
You spent so long trying to hide that, and it's like how much of it you can let out, and it just becomes really fraught. 

Speaker 3 (14:45):
It definitely does. 

Speaker 1 (14:54):
In episode 41, Caroline Ely and Kevin T. Porter from the Good Christian Fun podcast dropped by to discuss Christian art and culture when you were just talking about music stuff too. I mean, yeah. It's like, I don't know if there's an easy answer or there's an easy way to draw that line because in a certain way it's like the architecture and the decoration of a church is doing in a way, visually what the music might be doing. 

Speaker 4 (15:24):
Right. And it is a service in a way. 

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah. 

Speaker 4 (15:27):
And 

Speaker 1 (15:28):
For us too, I think about this a lot in museums as well. I think a lot about how museum architecture and church architecture is often really similar. 

Speaker 4 (15:37):
Oh, how so? 

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Well, I mean, scale for one thing, right? Huge. You kind of feel a little small in these spaces, right? Yeah, 

Speaker 4 (15:45):
Totally. The best kind of feeling museums is humbling. It's magnificent. 

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yes. Yes, exactly. It's humbling. And there's something about usually those spaces that also maybe hopefully inspire introspection as well in a certain way. 

Speaker 4 (16:00):
I guess they're so sparse otherwise. 

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, maybe 

Speaker 4 (16:02):
I'm thinking it's funny just to imagine this filled with clutter and just chairs and couches, coffee tables. I'll move it later. 

Speaker 1 (16:11):
But they're both of them I think of, and I think a lot of our audiences perceive them this way. And sometimes it's a push pull that I have of people think of a museum as a sacred space, and sometimes we do things and programs that are meant to be fun and to have, 

Speaker 4 (16:30):
And they're not in front of the art, 

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Literally. I mean, one time I had for a family program, we brought in the Red's mascots, and they were walking around the gallery. 

Speaker 4 (16:41):
Its so funny. 

Speaker 1 (16:42):
And 

Speaker 4 (16:45):
One of 'em just really staring at something and really thinking about his life. Well, the 

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Reds have just a plethora of mascots too. So we have one called Gapper who's the wacky Muppet 

Speaker 4 (16:57):
Gapper. You know who this he's talking about? 

Speaker 1 (16:59):
She's like, yeah, I know Gapper. 

Speaker 4 (17:00):
I friend Emily is here and she's a local. 

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, I like, that's her title. Emily local, 

Speaker 4 (17:08):
Emily local girl person. 

Speaker 1 (17:11):
So he was here and he was like, I think they had the costume built in with some kind wacky like whistle. One of those things that was like things. And so he was walking. That is so funny. I want to see is there footage of this? I don't think there was, because I think I was walking around escorting him at this point. Oh my God. But yes, we were walking around and we had people complain that gapper was ruining their art viewing experience. Basically the piece of art moved him so much. He tried to lead the museum in the Y M 

Speaker 4 (17:46):
C A. He had everyone doing the wave. The thought of someone having to go up to a security man in dead series and be like, gapper is interrupting my experience with his silly whistle. 

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Please 

Speaker 4 (18:02):
Get him out. 

Speaker 1 (18:02):
But I mean, for them, they were at church, right? 

Speaker 4 (18:06):
Well, that I understand. I thought they were going to just protest the idea of a mascot, even gracing these hallat halls. But IAnd actually, I mean, they might 

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Have on some level felt that way. 

Speaker 4 (18:13):
If I was here staring though at a beautiful piece of art and a mascot walked by and tried to trip me, I would be mad. 

Speaker 1 (18:18):
You'd be a little, I don. I don't think he was harming people. 

Speaker 4 (18:22):
No, I heard he was hitting people with a hammer. Wow. Zig crazy beast. 

Speaker 5 (18:26):
Oh no. Are we going to a me too? Gapper? 

Speaker 4 (18:30):
Good grief. Gapper. Yeah, he totally harassed a lot of women. 

Speaker 1 (18:36):
No, don't say that. 

Speaker 4 (18:37):
This is not true about gapper. Is gapper genderless? I'm assuming it's a man are 

Speaker 1 (18:42):
I think gapper has always been referred to as a he. I mean, I don't know. Hey, look, I don't 

Speaker 4 (18:46):
Know. Let's say they them just to be safe. They them. 

Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's probably safe. We do have lots of other gendered mascots for the reds. We have Mr. Red who's the original, 

Speaker 4 (18:57):
And 

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Then we have Mr. Red Legs who's like the is crazy. 

Speaker 4 (19:03):
Let's see him. Those damn is there. Mrs. Red legs. 

Speaker 1 (19:08):
So yeah, Mr. Red Legs is, I hate 

Speaker 4 (19:12):
That. 

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Has an old timey mustache. Oh my God. And in slightly crazier eyes, he looks like, actually it's So is he 

Speaker 4 (19:20):
Like the ID of Mr. Red, but Mr. Red what it wants to do? It's like inner demon. 

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, that's probably, yeah, I think you might be right. He also has an old timey, original red legs uniform too. Okay. So that's what the mustache is. He's supposed to be turn of the century. Oh, 

Speaker 4 (19:35):
Okay. Casey goes to bat. Exactly. 

Speaker 5 (19:37):
I think that's such an interesting idea because man, I just want to talk about gapper the rest of this podcast. We can 

Speaker 4 (19:43):
Do that. I'll refrain, we'll dive into gapper. 

Speaker 5 (19:45):
But the idea of the silly or wacky, or even just the more pedestrian colliding with something that's meant to be preserved or curated or sacred. So something Caroline and I have run into, even in doing our podcast about Christian media and art and stuff, is now we've started talking to venues that aren't just like, oh, a music venue that we're turning into a comedy venue or a theater that we're, but also churches as well. And one of the conversations we have at the outset of that is, are you okay with us or our guests over which we have no control per se, basically saying whatever we want, saying 

Speaker 4 (20:24):
The P word, 

Speaker 5 (20:26):
Saying the poop word 

Speaker 4 (20:27):
Saying. Yeah. On stage. Literally 

Speaker 5 (20:29):
Swearing. Because some churches would say no. 

Speaker 4 (20:31):
Yeah. Or I think if anything, they're probably worried of what their congregation would hear or get upset about too. 

Speaker 5 (20:38):
Yeah. And I find that the churches that, and this might be a personal preference for me as well, but churches that have more of a minimalist 

Speaker 4 (20:47):
Approach 

Speaker 5 (20:48):
In terms of certain architecture are usually the ones where the confluence of those two things and the inherent contradiction of this weird, silly thing happening in this sacred space isn't as much of a big deal. 

Speaker 4 (21:05):
So 

Speaker 5 (21:05):
Even in Los Angeles, a lot of the churches don't meet in church buildings. They mean high schools and gymnasiums and things that they're retrofitting for that. And so because of that, they take on minimal design that does have purpose, but it's a different kind of purpose than the one that's supported for people that can design those statues and the carvings and the walls and ing that. 

Speaker 1 (21:26):
So maybe they almost, in a way, it's like this space is more flexible in itself, 

Speaker 4 (21:33):
Temporary in a way, 

Speaker 5 (21:34):
Because it's all about function rather than spectacle. I think in those cases, not dogging on the ones that do serve spectacle functions as well, but for the ones that are just functional, there's less of a preciousness over like, yeah, gapper can come in and do a sermon if he wants. That's like gapper have a shot. It's literally just pantomiming the 

Speaker 4 (21:56):
Stations of the cross 

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Action of the Christ by gapper. I would watch that. Oh my God. 

Speaker 5 (22:04):
And I'm thinking 

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Of Mr. Red legs dressing as Mary for part of it. I see him as kind of a fluid gender 

Speaker 5 (22:09):
Thing. Sure, sure, sure, sure. I do as well. 

Speaker 1 (22:11):
We also have, not to make this all about the Red's mascots for like 25 minutes, please, but we, there's also red, 

Speaker 4 (22:20):
Rosie Red, 

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Who's our lady mascot. The lady. Yes, exactly. And 

Speaker 4 (22:25):
Is she kind of brassy or is she kind of shy? 

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well, none of them actually speak having spent actually a surprising amount of 

Speaker 4 (22:32):
Time. But you can tell. 

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, you can 

Speaker 5 (22:34):
Be a flirt with no words at all, I 

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Would say. So when she's been here doing things, I will say she's a little brassy, 

Speaker 4 (22:41):
A little brassy, a little in your face. 

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes. I would say now to look at her, you might not suspect that, but I'm just saying 

Speaker 5 (22:48):
She's lady, don't judge red by her costume. 

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Right. But 

Speaker 4 (22:54):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (22:54):
But she has kind of a little skirt too. Sort of a league of their own style. 

Speaker 5 (22:58):
Cut. I'm just kidding. I'm sorry. Oh my 

Speaker 4 (23:01):
God. You're going to be the next Me too, if you carry on that way. 

Speaker 5 (23:05):
I had some things to Google on the way. On 

Speaker 1 (23:13):
The next clip comes from episode 24 when I was joined 

Speaker 5 (23:17):
By Ainsley m Cameron, 

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Curator of South Asian Art, Islamic Art and Antiquities. How did you end up here? What's the story of how do you get to this point? And I guess I am interested actually even a little bit further back than just like, well, I was at my last job and then here, 

Speaker 5 (23:40):
And then this job came up. 

Speaker 1 (23:43):
I guess I'm interested in how people end up in the careers They end up, because I know for me, I never in a million years thought that this is what I would do. It's just totally luck and weird, dumb luck and just like, oh, well, this happened, and then I started doing that, and then there's just sort of these weird choices you make 

Speaker 6 (24:03):
That you 

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Think are inconsequential and turn out not to be. 

Speaker 6 (24:06):
Yeah. No, I think that's true, and I think that sort they snowball as you get older too, where sort of one leads to the next, and it all 

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Starts 

Speaker 6 (24:14):
To make sense originally or eventually, and then you realize that, yeah, you've been on a path for much longer than you thought you were. 

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, definitely. 

Speaker 6 (24:23):
Okay. So I think for me then, if that's what we're talking about of how I got here, and so this larger, when did the ball start rolling? When I was 15, I think it all started when I was 15. My mom got a job in SSRI Lanka in Colombo, and we moved there and I did all of high school over there. And so that's sort of my first introduction to South Asia, my first introduction to the art and archeology of the region, and what got me really excited to follow the career path that I'm on now. 

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Oh, well, I had no idea. 

Speaker 6 (25:00):
See, 

Speaker 1 (25:00):
I'm glad I asked because that's a way better story than I expected. 

Speaker 6 (25:05):
That's a bunch of, I was a freshman. I didn't know what to take in college. 

Speaker 1 (25:07):
So how old were you when you moved? 

Speaker 6 (25:08):
15. 

Speaker 1 (25:09):
15. So that must've been a pretty big It 

Speaker 6 (25:13):
Was a big deal, yeah. Was 

Speaker 1 (25:14):
That a pretty big culture shock for you? Huge. I mean, it just seems like such a point in everyone's life where everyone's a little off balance anyway. 

Speaker 6 (25:23):
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's interesting. I think, is that my mom was offered the job and turned it down because she was like, I have a 15 year old daughter. I'm not going to do that to her. I'm not going to try to move her. But I said, yes, let's try it. And I convinced her this was a great idea. Wouldn't this be interesting? Wouldn't this be amazing opportunity? And then I kind of looked at her and said, where's SSRI Lanka? I actually had no idea. I think I just wanted to get out of going to the high school. I was supposed to, but I didn't know where I was going to end up. 

Speaker 1 (25:52):
It sounded like an exciting, exotic trip. So you were pretty game though for it. I 

Speaker 6 (25:56):
Was game. I was definitely game. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (25:59):
What was your high school experience? 

Speaker 6 (26:02):
It was kind of funny. It was small. It was a small, private high school where mainly SSRI, Lankan families would send their kids if they wanted their kids to go to university abroad. So it was following the British system. So I did my O Levels and my A Levels and did all these, I dunno, funny random subjects that you wouldn't have done in North American High School. And it was kind of great. The class sizes were really small. The teachers were not very much older than us, which was kind of weird. They were just sort of recent graduates from university in the UK and could come over and teach at a high school for a couple of years. They were totally unqualified to do that. Some of them were great in case they're listening, in case they're listening, of course, they're stalking me on a podcast. Some of them were really, really great. They were just enthusiastic about life and about communicating to these high school kids, but some of them had no idea how to put together a high school curriculum. But yeah, I mean, it worked out great. So I had a wonderful time there. I really enjoyed it. We stayed for three years. We decided to go for one year, and if we liked it, we'd stay for longer and we stayed for three. 

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Wow. That's awesome. 

Speaker 6 (27:15):
Yeah, yeah, 

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Totally. So that it really started with, were you already interested in art before that? 

Speaker 6 (27:23):
I was interested in archeology. I was convinced I was going to be the next Indiana Jones. This was the thing for me, but I thought I wanted to do Middle Eastern archeology, sort of what you do. But as soon as I got to Colombo, everything changed. It was all South Asia. It got into my blood somehow. 

Speaker 1 (27:48):
In episode 20, I met Catalina Cuervo, the opera singer who was singing the role of Frida Kahlo in the Cincinnati Operas production of Frida. She sat down with me to look at photographs of Frida and discuss her life, 

Speaker 7 (28:10):
And she loved wearing her flowers in her head, and she loved to wear ribbons and all other things. That is also from her heritage also because she was very proud of her Mexican and Indian heritage and the love for nature. So it's iconic, 

Speaker 1 (28:27):
And 

Speaker 7 (28:27):
Here with this picture, he's showing not only that strength in her face, but the flowers, her love, the love of her life. 

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Well, and it's another thing that a lot of the photos capture and what so many people have always talked about with Frida is her sense of fashion 

Speaker 7 (28:44):
And 

Speaker 1 (28:44):
The way she has built this style that is both rooted in a tradition, but then it's also very original. She's kind of mixing traditions as well. She's pulling from this region and this style, and she's totally doing her own thing and just totally owning it. 

Speaker 7 (29:04):
Owning it. One of the things that was most fascinating about her, and in a time, this one is Frida was from both Mexican Indian heritage and German, and she was very proud of being Mexican and of having that, when you see the way she dressed in her Tijuana outfits and her hair, it's a combination, like you said, of both things. Her outfits come from the wana outfits, the dresses that the people in the town wear, the Mexicans wear, and then her braid. Her braid is not a Latino thing. It's actually a German thing. 

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Her 

Speaker 7 (29:48):
Grandmother used to wear the braids, and Frida decided she looked very much like her grandmother, by the way. The eyebrow comes from her German grandmother. She looked exactly like her German grandmother. So she was like, I'm going to wear my braids just like my grandmother and my Tana outfits, my Mexican people. So it's amazing that she owned to who she was, where she was from, and she was proud of it, and she wanted to just show everybody that. 

Speaker 1 (30:18):
And 

Speaker 7 (30:18):
Just when she came to the United States, she wore her Tijuana outfits, she wore her flowers on her head, and she didn't wear what ladies in the fashion lights 

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Back 

Speaker 7 (30:29):
In the time used to wear no. She was like, no, no. This is me. This is what I wear. It's fascinating. I love it. I love that attitude about her. 

Speaker 1 (30:43):
The next clip comes from episode 36 when artist Joey Osa and I delved 

Speaker 8 (30:48):
Into the world 

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Of video games and 

Speaker 9 (30:50):
Compared them to 

Speaker 1 (30:51):
500 year old artworks by alrick dur. 

Speaker 8 (31:03):
It's like when we watch a movie, I mean, we're not interacting. We're not manipulating anything. There's that distance that art has that it's this thing on the wall. We have this distance, we understand it, and then we, it's cerebral kind of thing, relationship, but video games is something different. And I always think about, gosh darn it, who was it? What film critic? Was it Chicago, very famous, 

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Cisco or Ebert? 

Speaker 8 (31:28):
I think it was Ebert. And he said, and a lot of people get mad about it, but he's like, video games aren't 

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Art. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was definitely, 

Speaker 8 (31:36):
That's fair. That's fine. It doesn't have to be, it's its own thing. You know what I mean? We can understand that it is something new that we get to interact with in this way, but we also are simultaneously passively watching. 

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah. Well, it's a super weird thing too, because I remember the hot burning questions of what 2008 was going down. 

Speaker 8 (32:00):
But yeah, I mean, I kind 

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Of can see both sides of it because on one hand I'm like, well, yeah, it's also, it is not out. It's not like it comes out of this tradition as we're sitting here, we're sitting in a room full of dur prints, and it's not like somebody ever started at this point and moved through that history and got to video games. That's exactly right. It came out of its own world, really. I mean, it's like just somebody's like, Hey, we can do this thing. And I feel like video games should be a part of the arts as we see it, but it's not a part necessarily of the visual art world. But then again, it's so weird because I don't know, maybe one day it could 

Speaker 8 (32:39):
Be it. 

Speaker 1 (32:39):
It's 

Speaker 8 (32:40):
Some of the most breathtaking landscapes. It's like Emily is playing Horizon zero dawn, and it is so remarkably beautiful, and it will just stop. And we're like, that sunset in the snow is just unbelievable. Yeah. 

Speaker 10 (32:54):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (32:55):
I mean, it's absolutely gorgeous. Or I'm always really interested in the objects and furniture and stuff 

Speaker 8 (33:02):
That's created for those things. And the Soul Series for me, and specifically, I don't know about you, but Bloodborne was where I feel like there was this particular refinement in terms of the gothic, and that was just a period in which, for me, dialing into the object, the medieval aspect of the Soul Series, there was something about bloodborne in particular, about this kind of gothic sensibility, 

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Sort of like Victorian era. There you go. Right, right, right. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. And it's based in, it's sort of realistic in some ways. I mean, you could look at some of the art car furniture here that was made in Cincinnati in the 18 hundreds that 

Speaker 8 (33:43):
Looks 

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Really similar, that bed downstairs. It's like that crazy vaulted eyes. Oh, it's incredible 

Speaker 8 (33:48):
Canopy 

Speaker 1 (33:49):
And stuff. It's really similar to that stuff. But then they've taken it and made it over the top crazy, where it's like you look out of the skyline and it's a million spires and stuff. 

Speaker 8 (33:59):
Totally. Well, it becomes like gaudy. But then 

Speaker 1 (34:02):
At the same time, there's a point where in my neighborhood downtown where I can stand and I can see the spires of city hall, wise temple and the church nearby, and it 

Speaker 8 (34:17):
Feels like that. It looks like blood more. It does. And I'm just kind of amazing when you look at some of these dura prints, especially the ones in which there is figures, but they're also in a larger space that there's so much about rubble. You're seeing these kind of kingdoms fallen and right here. And that's the sensibility that I got where it really struck me was looking at night death. And the devil is that kingdom that just built on that hill. And it's so much about proximity and distance, and you can look at a ton of these, and there's always this distance, and it's like the interiors not so much, but it's when you get those spaces where everything's out there, and I know there's a bunch of Madonna and child and it's just this incredible, where they're just sitting on a pile of a fallen wall, 

Speaker 10 (35:11):
And 

Speaker 8 (35:11):
She's sitting there and she has keys, and I think it's that one right over there on this green wall. It's like you could see her, the one on the very end and the left, and she has keys just dangling here, and then this kingdom that's been just in rubble. 

Speaker 10 (35:27):
Yeah, I was 

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Noticing the weird decay of the world, these as well. And when you were kind of brought it up as relationship to sort of the soul series of video games, maybe we have done a very bad job of actually explaining to a person who has never played a video game, what we're talking about in that way. But basically there's a series of video games that 

Speaker 8 (35:49):
Take place in, 

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Most of them are in sort of a 

Speaker 8 (35:52):
Medieval 

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Kind of fantasy world, medieval inspired, but we should say they're also developed in Japan. So they've always kind of got this really interesting mix of medieval European influence mixed with 

Speaker 8 (36:06):
Japanese ideas and 

Speaker 1 (36:08):
Aesthetics, and they're 

Speaker 8 (36:09):
Just really 

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Fascinating. But most of this world that they exist in has just totally gone to pot. Yeah. It's 

Speaker 8 (36:18):
Kind of holding on by the seams, and it's very much what you see kind of illustrated in these dura prints in a way, is that this kind of old ideal just slowly either breaking apart or being held together by the seams. Our final clip 

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Comes from episode 

Speaker 8 (36:43):
32 

Speaker 1 (36:44):
When I 

Speaker 8 (36:44):
Met artist Pam Kravitz, and we discussed the ways costumes can be empowering. 

Speaker 11 (36:58):
I think that's the thing. I live my art. I am my art, and most recently, I've become dressing like my art, and I tell my stories through my clothing and through my performative pieces. 

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, I mean, if I was to describe you, I would definitely say the idea of clothing is a big part of it and dressing in a certain way, but I don't necessarily, I would say it's a character, but then I don't think it is a character, is it? 

Speaker 11 (37:31):
No, I don't think 

Speaker 8 (37:33):
I just was, 

Speaker 1 (37:34):
I don't think it's a put on. I think that's just like you, right? 

Speaker 11 (37:38):
It's pretty authentic. I mean, it's a hundred percent authentic, but I have to say that a lot of times what the costumes I do kind of consider even the way I dress on a daily basis is very costume, very playful, very girly. I embrace my feminine side a lot, and that's the fake furs and the very colorful lipsticks. But a lot of times too, what I'm doing is telling a story or being part of a narrative of a story I want to tell through my art. So I love a parade. I love a parade. So sometimes my costumes or my outfits or my art is being in the bathtub for Arnold's dressed like a bubble, because if bathtubs and bubbles, so yeah, no, it's a hundred percent authentic, but it's been a lot of evolution. I was never comfortable with the way I looked, and I knew I wasn't the pretty girl, and everyone around me was so pretty, and I was like, I couldn't stand out in that way. At a very young age, kindergarten, I got in trouble for wearing a miniskirt and go-go boots. But that was the sixties, so I was sent to the principal's office. So very early on, I think I realized I was going to be a different kind of person, a different look, because I wanted an individuality and I wanted to stand out in my own. And I knew the way I see the world and I communicate is a lot of the way I look 

Speaker 11 (39:13):
And giving somebody else the right or the free pass to say, be who you are, dress you feel, and let your clothing tell the story of who you are. 

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah. There's something about that. It becomes your armor in a way. 

Speaker 11 (39:33):
Yes. 

Speaker 1 (39:33):
That you put on something that, and I guess definitely when I was younger, I would dress. I love just really pushing the limits of what I could get away with. And there was something about, I don't know, just I was more fearless, sort of the crazier I looked. 

Speaker 11 (39:55):
Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. 

Speaker 1 (39:58):
You're 

Speaker 11 (39:58):
Right. No, I agree with you. 

Speaker 1 (40:00):
There's something about that. The more kind of outlandish I was, the more I don't know. And I guess I'm also a person who doesn't mind being on stage, who doesn't mind. So that's all very connected, that there's a safety in the costume. And I even remember when I was in plays when I was in high school, and I was very self-conscious of my body when I was that age too. And so maybe the things I would wear that were maybe outlandish as Russell would still maybe hide my body in a way that I felt okay about. But I remember playing characters on stage where the costume required would probably have made me uncomfortable on the street. But because I was somebody else, I was totally okay with it. And I did not think about it for one second that I was wearing this thing that I was. And what's funny is the things I was wearing that I can remember a costume being uncomfortable about was a sweater vest or something. It was nothing that weird. It 

Speaker 11 (41:04):
Wasn't that, 

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Right? It wasn't weird. It was just like I was not happy with how I physically looked in it. I was just like, oh, I look really fat in this. And I did not like that. And so I felt like, oh, this is really revealing. But it was okay. I was a character. Once I became that character that just totally melted away. 

Speaker 11 (41:25):
I think you and I are the same person. I was theater too 

Speaker 1 (41:29):
In 

Speaker 11 (41:29):
High school and same thing. And I totally embrace costumes, and I really, you're right, but it isn't armored. It is almost like your superhero power that I can show up and I can be like this, and I'm safe. I'm safe in this costume. I've never thought of it like that, but you're a hundred percent. And I think that's to the way that I've, not even knowing that that's what I was doing 

Speaker 1 (41:57):
And 

Speaker 11 (41:59):
The body image issues and all of that stuff, of course I have those and I still have those. But the way that I have learned to embrace and love my body and the way I look is part of the costuming. 

Speaker 1 (42:15):
And I was thinking about other people. I was saying, well, I don't think of, I think most people are very nervous of being in front of people and are nervous of performing in that way that I'm not. But I've been around people who really have stage fright and are nervous. And I remember in my previous job, we had this bear costume that we would wear for programs, and there was somebody who was very shy and who was very nervous, but she loved putting on the bear costume, and she could safely be as kind of big and as outlandish as she wanted to be in that costume because it was safe, 

Speaker 11 (42:53):
Fearless. Right. 

Speaker 1 (42:54):
And you were anonymous too. You have this mask over your face and you're totally anonymous. It was basically like a mascot type costume. And I've seen that happen with lots of people who they put on something that completely conceals them, and it allows them to become somebody else and to lose all inhibitions. 

Speaker 11 (43:15):
I don't know if, did you know I was the Bearcat, the uc, Bearcat mascot 

Speaker 1 (43:19):
For two years? No, I did not. 

Speaker 11 (43:21):
I'm like the most unathletic person you'll ever meet. I have two varsity college letters, athlete letters. I actually have a captain's letter, which is really funny. But yes, I was the mascot and exactly that. I got more dates being the mascot than you can even imagine. You, you put yourself out there in such a different way. But then, I don't know if you know this, but which blown away got the opportunity to wear a Nick Cave 

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Sound 

Speaker 11 (43:48):
Suit here when it was at Cam. Was it five years ago? Maybe four or 

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Five years ago? Little. I've been here for four and a half, and it was just a little bit before I started, maybe 2012 or so. 

Speaker 11 (44:00):
Right. 

Speaker 1 (44:01):
So 

Speaker 11 (44:01):
That was also that feeling like putting on those incredible suits and walking around. People were in awe and excited and so was, and my friends that got this opportunity. So yeah, definitely that concealing yourself in such a way, you can totally put yourself out there. 

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yeah. 

Speaker 11 (44:19):
Now I don't have to do that anymore. Now I'm like, hello, 

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Here 

Speaker 11 (44:22):
I am. Take me or leave me. 

Speaker 1 (44:27):
I was just curious when I was thinking about your description of what you do and the way you kind of perform and you think of it that it's almost like your art is just existing in the world in a way. When you talk about, say, being in a parade, I mean, I guess a parade is a type of framework that we can view art even though maybe people don't traditionally think of it that way. But is that something you're also interested in, is kind of removing the boundaries of where we see art? 

Speaker 11 (44:57):
Oh, I love that you say that because that is so living in my head lately. It is so living in my head, and actually, somebody asked me recently, they're like, where can I see your art? I'm like, well, are you going to the Bach Fest parade? 

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Because 

Speaker 11 (45:11):
It'll be in there. And so I definitely am playing with those ideas now because I do want to go back to making some more of my art. I've never, it's been a really long time since I made art that hung on a wall, but I've made those big marionette puppets. I had the C a c very interactive and very performative. They were performative. So I am kind of ready to marry the idea of my art and the idea of a non-traditional space, a moment in time. That's what I love about the parades, and I love about, it's that moment in time. You have to be there, you have to experience, and then it goes away, which 

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Is 

Speaker 11 (45:55):
Weird. I mean, most artists, you want that idea of something tangible, something concrete, and I think a lot of times what I want is that feeling that I give or get or do when I'm in that moment in time. 

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Well, that's theater. 

Speaker 11 (46:11):
That's theater, 

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Right? 

Speaker 11 (46:12):
That is theater. 

Speaker 1 (46:13):
It's just for the moment, and it's with those people, and then it's gone and you make a tape of it or you document it, but it's never the thing. 

Speaker 11 (46:22):
It's never the thing 

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Was there, and it was that moment and it's gone. 

Speaker 11 (46:26):
And it's gone. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm glad you brought that up. It's definitely been brewing in my head lately. 

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Exactly 

Speaker 11 (46:34):
What you articulated way better than I did. 

Speaker 1 (46:38):
What's your relationship to drag? 

Speaker 11 (46:41):
Oh, oh my gosh. Did you know me? Do you follow me around? 

Speaker 1 (46:46):
I 

Speaker 11 (46:46):
Don't. I've 

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Never met you. 

Speaker 11 (46:48):
I'm infatuated in love, enamored in awe of drag queens. Well, 

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Because sort of as you're describing, and I've seen some of your costumes and your performances, I kind of feel like this is this kind of drag, right? It's 

Speaker 11 (47:03):
Kind of drag. 

Speaker 1 (47:06):
I mean, obviously the idea of, and I think there are female drag queens too who are not like a drag king, but that is becoming more of a thing where there are female drag queens who basically like, I am going to play this because the whole idea is this exaggerated femininity that's over the top. And so it kind of doesn't totally matter. I mean, of course, I feel like in a traditional drag queen, which is a bizarre stateman, I know the idea of a traditional drag queen, but I feel like there's, to some degree the idea of the illusion, but that's not always there, and it's not necessarily a part of everyone's performance either. 

Speaker 11 (47:50):
Does it only belong to men dress? I mean, I love that. I 

Speaker 1 (47:53):
Don't think it has to, but 

Speaker 11 (47:54):
Really, I just wouldn't want to infringe on an art form that's been around for a very long time that I don't know. I don't know. I have to look into that. That would be, I just went to Tennessee, to Nashville to actually be in a parade, a Christmas parade, a nice Jewish girl in the Christmas parade. I was dressed like an elf. It was kind of crazy. But we went to a drag show there, 

Speaker 1 (48:19):
And 

Speaker 11 (48:21):
I'm blown away by the talent, the beauty, the craftsmanship, the artistry, and talk about a moment in time putting yourself out there. And I am in love with it. 

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Yeah. 

Speaker 11 (48:33):
Yeah. So, okay, I'm going to look into that. I'm ready to go home and make some art. Man to be. You're totally as, 

Speaker 1 (48:40):
I mean, I think that Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. The special exhibition on view right now is Collecting Calligraphy Arts of the Islamic World, and opening October 3rd life Jillian Waring. And join us on the evening of October 3rd at 7:00 PM for a conversation with artist Jillian Waring, led by Associate Curator of photography, Nathaniel m Stein. For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Fron Music by Balal. And always, please rate and review us. It always helps others find the show. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace, produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.