Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace, 

Speaker 2 (00:02):
No one is normal and therefore, when you're different, you're just another kind of different. 

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Joel Lamb, a local burner and board member for Cincinnati Pride. This episode was recorded live as one of our gallery experiences with a small group of visitors. My name is Russell. I'm the associate director of interpretive programming here at the museum, and today's conversation is about ply a pride. So this is Pride month, so June is the kickoff of that. So it's only second day. And we wanted to talk about this aspect of Burning Man, which we know a lot of people might not be aware of that aspect of it. So we kind of put out a call to other burners in the area just to see who wanted to come and chat with us about it. And Joel here replied, so he is going to be help talk with us today. So Joel, why don't you let us know a little bit more about yourself? 

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Sure. Hi everyone, my name is Joel and Russell. Thank you for having us or having me and having this event. So my name is Joel. I live here in Cincinnati. I've been a resident of Cincinnati for about five years. I work for a retail company, department store, and I work up in Mason. I oversee the offshore call centers. I've been in burning for about six years now. I've been to Burning Man twice now. The Big Burn is what we call it. And I have been to regional Burning Man events for about six years. This past one, which was this past weekend on Memorial Day, I believe was about my 15th burn that I've been to or Burning Man event that I've been to in Burning Man. We have, I guess what you can call nicknames or burner names. So the community, people in the community call me Stuck Truck. 

Speaker 2 (02:22):
That's my Burning Man name. And we all sort of earn our names in a certain way. It's just like you would earn a nickname in other ways. The way I earned my name is that I am an artist in the community. In the community, different people you find a different place. Some people are performers. They do fire what's called flow fire tour lawyers and spinners. Some people are musicians, some people are makers. I find home mostly in the artist world, and I brewing a lot of art. So about five years ago I brought a U-Haul truck with all of my art and it rained a lot. It was very muddy and my truck got stuck and I had to get the entire community to help me move my truck. And then as soon as it got going out of the mud, it got stuck again. So I had to call 'em all back. I need some more help. And then it got stuck again and again and again. So they call me Stuck Truck now. So thanks for having 

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Me. I was a little curious about the Burner nicknames because I've been hearing a lot of 'em since we've had the exhibition up. And I mean obviously you got to earn it like any nickname, but is there a time limit that you got to earn it by? Can you go through multiple burns and just not have a nickname and then one day you just get it? 

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, absolutely. Actually, we have a member, so I'm part of what's called a theme camp, a group of people who camp together and we usually have a specific theme. So a member of my theme camp, she self named herself about five years ago 

Speaker 2 (03:46):
And only recently after this past weekend realized that she didn't feel correct in self naming herself. So now has rescinded her burner name and is looking on the look for a new one. So some people go years without a burner name. Some people just aren't nickname kind of people. I actually don't have any other nicknames beyond my burner name. So some people never get a burner name. Some people get one within hours. It's all based off of the event. And in the moment someone says like, oh, you're wearing red, red Tie Guy, okay, you're Red Tie now, and that's her name. It just depends. 

Speaker 1 (04:19):
And it's just kind of the, I don't know, the masses just kind of decide that that's right or it's like any nickname it has to stick, I guess is what you're saying. 

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, it really depends. Sometimes for me, I did not like my burn name for a while, and it took me a few years, but people just kind of latched onto it and wouldn't stop using it. And now I'm actually going to love it. But for the most part, it really depends on who's around when you make the burn name. I'll give you an example. There was a first time burner, what we call a virgin, a virgin burner, and she actually came within the third day, had developed the name Firefly and that's what people call her because when she came, she learned about the gifting culture and she thought what she'll gift is shots of Fireball. So people would be walking by and she'd be like, Hey, do you want a shot of Fireball? And she'd come over and people would ch and that's how she got to meet people apparently, I guess they were doing shots of Fireball at nighttime. And there are fireflies where we camp at the regional Burns. It was beautiful, and you see these little specks of light going on and off and someone just said, you're just like a firefly. You give us these fireball stuff. And that's how she got her name. So within a few days she had a name as well. And it's all based off of who's there. It's in the moment, something unique that happens and someone says, we should call you blank, and it sticks. 

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well. I'm a little curious about the folks here. Do you have any other questions about just what Burning Man is, or is everyone pretty well informed about it? Or you look like you're making big head shaky? No-no faces. I just know the general population of art in the desert and a giving community. So I love these stories. So I feel like you've got a pretty good idea about what it is though. So I mean, a lot of people, I hear people assume it's like a music festival. That's a big one that I've heard people kind of assuming that it's like a Coachella or something like that. And it's definitely not that. In fact, I was talking with a burner recently and she was telling me how they're very strict about, you cannot promote performances before. I don't know what the rules are, but you're not allowed to put out, this person is going to play at Burning Man at this time in this place, months in advance or anything. It kind of has to be a little bit of a surprise. So there are certainly musical performances and things that happen, but they're not promoted in the way you might expect it at a music festival. 

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Everyone there will say, it's not a festival. Don't call it a festival. It's kind of like when you're on a cruise and someone says, it's not a boat, it's a ship, or it's not a ship, it's a boat. You're not supposed to call it one over the other. Same thing for Burning Man, it's not a festival. And for me, what that means, and what I've learned that it means is at a festival, you go and you go to consume entertainment like a music festival for example. You show up and you just get the music, you get the music at our festival, you show up and you get the art, you get the art, you kind of consume it. But Burning Man is about participation and contribution. So there is not one single focus where you're going there to do that and consume it. You're going there to contribute and to see what other people are contributing. So when you think about Daft Punk is one of the bigger names that just randomly shows up at Burning Man and performs. They don't announce that because they don't want it to turn into a festival where I'm here for Daft Punk. It's like, no, that's not why you should be here. So that's kind of the difference or the uniqueness of Burning Man for me. 

Speaker 1 (07:49):
And I think the other thing maybe to talk about is the scale of the big burn. And that's another thing you were just talking about is there are smaller regional burns that happen around the country. So there's ones in Ohio and nearby states, but the big burn is massive 

Speaker 2 (08:09):
During that week. The Bernie Man event, it really ends on Labor Day and it starts really pretty much the weekend before. So it runs for about 10 days long. During those 10 days, BlackRock City, which is where Bernie Man occurs, becomes the third largest city in the state of Nevada. So there's Las Vegas, there's Reno, and then there's BlackRock City, burning Man. So for that week, 60,000 plus people are there, they turn a empty desolate desert into a legitimately operating city. It's phenomenal. They've got not a hospital but medics, they've got doctors, they've got firefighters, they've got police ish kind of people there. It's really an operating city. They have a city center, they kind of have a city call ish, they've got streets, they've got lights, they've got all kinds of odd things as well. So it really is a massive, massive city that pops up for a week. And then if you were to go there a month later, you would not know that that had ever even happened. There'd be no trace. One of the principals leave No Trace. You'd absolutely not know that that was there. So 

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Tell me more about police ish. 

Speaker 2 (09:18):
So police ish, Bernie Mann doesn't have an authority figure, let's say, where there's the festival guards are here and they're going to kick you out necessarily. That kind of does exist, but there really is not an authority figure because it's meant to be the community coming together and working together and building it. Now, the Burning Man community, there's federal agents who go and show up looking for drugs and looking for all these other nefarious behaviors and things like that. But in general, officially, there's really no authority figure. There's no one who says, move your tent over here, go this way, do this. You're misbehaving. There's no one who really does that. There are a group of people who are volunteers called Rangers, and the way that Rangers, I view Rangers in the way it's really explained to people is that they are your friend who help you make a good decision. So if you are maybe intoxicated and you're saying inappropriate things to someone else, maybe a lady who's walking by or a guy Ranger will be like, Hey, friend, how's it going? How are you doing? What are you up to? Why are you doing that? How do you think people feel when you do that? They don't come and scold you about it. They don't go and take you to the Burning Man jail if you're misbehaving and things like 

Speaker 1 (10:34):
That. Right. Well, that makes a lot of sense. The word's actually a perfect fit because it's like you think of a park ranger and it's a similar level of authority where you don't really, you're not really worried about what the Park Ranger's going to do to you, but they're just there to make sure everything's running smoothly. That makes a lot of sense. So you just said a lady or a guy. So since this is sort of why we're here, I just wanted to learn a little bit more about how Burning Man is inclusive of L G B T people and your experience with that. And obviously you are just one person, so I don't think we need to really preface that too much, but obviously experiences may vary. 

Speaker 2 (11:16):
You got it. Well, let me go back to introduce myself. So I am gay and I'm also on the board of Cincinnati Pride. We put on the Pride Festival, the Pride Parade, June 22nd Saturday. Come join us if you can. So I'm very involved in the L G B T community. I would say, I will say from a Burning Man perspective, the experience is varied less than what it is here in what we call the default world, the regular world. And the reason is that being gay, there is not a thing. It's just absolutely normal. No one is normal and therefore when you're different, you're just another kind of different. So there isn't a deep seated need to tell everyone, this is my personal experience to say, by the way, I'm gay, by the way, I'm gay by the way, where's the gay safe space? 

Speaker 2 (12:03):
There's nothing like that in Burning Man because everyone is different and differences are just celebrated in that. And I will say though, that from a trans perspective myself am not trans, but the trans community, I've seen a lot more emphasis on ensuring that people, especially who are not burners, are very mindful of trans people. I'll give you an example. At Burning Man, there's a lot of nudity. People walk around naked, it's just a thing. It's not lustful nudity, it's just like a nudist colony. People are just naked. It's hot. It's super hot over there. People just don't want to wear clothes. That's just how it's, and sometimes there's showers, open air showers where there's literally just a faucet there and you're like, oh my God, it's so hot. I just want some water. What I've seen recently is that trans people have become, this is my own experience, my perception, trans people have become much more comfortable in walking around naked. 

Speaker 2 (12:53):
So I've personally experienced a lot more emphasis on being open to transgender issues, having sessions at Burning Man at burning events, talking about trans issues and things like that. At the regional Bernie Man event that I just attended, we made wearing one pronoun buttons. Pronoun button is a button that you wear that tells your pronouns. It's either he, his him, or she, his her or they there, or ask me my pronouns, which is very important for the trans community because pronouns to be pronoun is a very deep touching thing and a bad thing for the trans community. So we made 300 of these, and there's about 550 people who attended, about 300 of them were wearing pronoun buttons and understood the importance of it. So 

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Nice. 

Speaker 2 (13:43):
So going back to the question about L G B T experience, in some ways it's not a thing because it doesn't need to be a thing in other ways, it's evolving and still being much more inclusive day to day. 

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah. How long have you been involved in it from start to now? I know you said you went to the big Burn twice, but including all your regional burns, how long have you been a part of it? 

Speaker 2 (14:01):
My first burn was in the spring of 2014, so it's been actually now five years. 

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay. Have you seen any changes in that aspects of it over that time? 

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, it's actually blown up. I'll give you an example. The regional Bernie Man, one of them, that event that I go to, it has since in the five years that I've been there, doubled in size as far as attendees, and the mix of attendees has really changed in that more than half of them are brand new people who don't really know anything about Burning Man. They're like, have a friend who came. They kind of don't know. Whereas when I went, it was very small, about 250 people, and it was people who had been burning for 10 years. So the demographics of Burning Man have changed. I first went to the Big Burn in 2014, and it was the same thing. Same thing five years earlier. I think that it was like 40,000 people, maybe 30,000 people. So Bernie Man itself also is growing in size quickly, which means that in the community, there's been a interesting dynamic about how to incorporate and indoctrinate the newbies so that they don't avoid some kind of bad behavior that's looked down upon. 

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, yeah. I guess I was curious too is do you find that the community as a whole is equally friendly to queer people in the sort of regional to national burn? Or is it pretty similar vibe just based on everybody following the principles essentially? 

Speaker 2 (15:30):
It's generally the same vibe, but the thing is with the big burn, it is so big and it is a city. So just like any other big city, you find there's the queer gay neighborhood in the big burn we call the neighborhood. So in the neighborhood, I forget what it's like five 30 and E Street is where the neighborhood is at. So there are theme camps that are specifically gay people and gay oriented, and they're all white clubs, but they have other things like that. But at the bigger burn, there are very specific gay oriented places, whereas at the smaller burns, there's smaller. So it's not like there's the gay camp right there, it's just gay people are just kind of sprinkled around everywhere, I guess. Right. 

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah. I think I had seen a, I mean, who knows what this kind of statistic was, and I don't know how to quote it, but something about just the sort of how do burners identify and a pretty shockingly large margin of them identify as something other than straight, basically, which I thought was really interesting, and it makes a lot of sense to me just based on the principles of radical inclusion that would attract a lot of people who think of themselves maybe in other ways, even if maybe other people don't. I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (16:47):
What's interesting is that there are a lot of non-straight people at Bernie man, especially as a proportion of the general society. But what I find is that there's a lot of straight people there as well, but I can't tell who's straight or gay because the rainbow flag, for example, people just wear the rainbow flag. They like it. They just like rainbows and stuff. People act when they're at Burning Man, they don't worry, especially men about their masculinity. That's very common to see two guys holding hands, but they themselves don't identify as being gay. They both have wives and they don't hook up with each other. So it's a very interesting dynamic where the kinds of things here that help to identify and distinguish those populations sort of fall by the wayside there. 

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, that's a really good point. When you're talking about the way people present, we perceive men wearing less clothes as more gay. So that makes a lot of sense when you're describing how much nudity there already is. And just in the sort of flamboyant dress, another thing that is traditionally aligned with queer culture is like, oh, you're dressing brightly and things that are not in this super buttoned down way of this is a perceived masculinity or femininity. So the fact that Burning Man has so much in its fashion that lets people present in all these different ways, that also does just stir the pot to where it's like, I don't even know anymore. Right. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (18:12):
It's true. That's what Burning Man is all about, is about trying new things, testing your limits, finding your boundaries of things. I mean, it's very common. I have a camp mate who is very, very straight, and he identifies as straight, he has a girlfriend a goes along now a wife with kids, and he found through Bernie Manley, he just loves wearing dresses. He just does, which is viewed obviously very feminine, but he just likes wearing dresses. There are many men who wear kilts is life now a thing as well, because 

Speaker 1 (18:39):
They're 

Speaker 2 (18:39):
More airy. And 

Speaker 1 (18:40):
I was going to say, there's totally a practicality to that, right, in the desert, 

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Right. Yeah. But what you mentioned is very common. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah. Well, do you guys have any other sort of thoughts or questions? I've picked the exact worst time to ask this because really loud. So actually if you do, I'm going to throw you my money. 

Speaker 3 (18:56):
You mentioned that you've been burning for several years, so I wonder if you could just, does that mean that you've been engaging in the principles, or can you elaborate on that a little bit? What the burning lifestyle is? 

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Sure. It's kind of an evolution. I'm definitely not all the way there yet myself, but when I say I've been burning, that means attending events, I've been attending events is what I've been burning means. But what I find and what most people find is that in order to attend these events consistently, it requires a lot of equipment. It requires tent camping equipment for sure. It requires artsy equipment. It requires a plethora of different kinds of attire for different temperatures because the temperatures vary drastically. So there's just a lot of things that are needed, which then start to take up space in your default world life, which then start to take up your life as well. So what I've noticed is people who have been burning for a very long time, pretty much it becomes their life and they just start dressing like this. That's just who they are. So I've been, when I say I'm burning, I mean attending events, but for a lot of people, it's living the lifestyle, living the principles, and part of that is being nomadic. Part of that is being the 10 principles of leave no trace. Most people that have been burning for many years, we don't throw stuff away anymore. We don't use trash cans. We're very mindful of waste, and so we don't use single use water bottles. It's what I've noticed, a common theme in people who have been engaged in this event for a while. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (20:29):
And the last podcast I recorded with two other burners, one guy was talking about his, I think his first burn. He wanted to give out candy as a gift and just to have to give to people. And he chose a candy that was wrapped the first year and realized it made him very conscious of that mistake, basically, because then everybody, he was giving something to was producing a piece of waste that he then had to take care of. He brought also, he had a little pouch or something that he would take the paper from them after they unwrapped it and make sure it went back with him. But then the next year, he wanted to do that again, and so he chose something that was not wrapped so that he wouldn't have to consider that. So it's like thinking that way. But on every level, 

Speaker 2 (21:14):
It starts with the small things that you start to notice and people start to mention to you. But little by little, those small changes in your life start to add up to big changes in your life and how you perceive the world, how you interact with people and things like that as well. So I will give you a quick example of one of the other principle radical. So a lot of people don't really know what that means. And the reason is because I find it means very different things for many different people. So some people have a lot of anxiety that go to Burning Man events, which is kind of odd if you think about it. They are afraid of crowds, and yet they go to an event that is purposely, you're stuck with crowds. There's no cell phone reception, there's no way to get out. 

Speaker 2 (21:51):
It's odd. But for some people, radical self-expression is about just communicating and actually introducing yourself, which is a big step for some people to go up to a stranger and introduce yourself. Other people view radical self-expression as I just want to be without my clothes scary, and I feel embarrassed to buy my body, and I'm overweight, and I don't have a model perfect body. So these self-express through nudity and stuff. So there's a lot of the 10 principles manifest themselves in many different ways for many different people. It's interesting to see how that comes about. Another person with radical self-expression is about just loves doing poetry. And so they'll just stand, I guess, outside in, I guess you could call it the streets, and just belt out their poetry just because they've only, they've never shared it with anyone before. They've always been afraid of it, of sharing it, expressing it with anyone. So it's interesting to see how those things kind of come across. 

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, the idea of the anxiety of interacting with people came up when we were dealing with one of the exhibition, well, one of the pieces in the exhibition, the Capitol Theater. The artists would like to have volunteer ticket takers working in the piece as much as possible. And so what that means is in the spirit of Burning Man too, that to get a ticket, there's no currency exchanged, but they're supposed to sort of give a gift of a song or a dance or a story or something like that to be given a ticket to the theater. So we had a lot of debate in the museum amongst ourselves of how far can we push people in this way? Because of course, we we're trying to express this thing that is authentically a part of the Burning Man experience. But yet we also know you're still in this museum where people don't traditionally come for that experience. And so the show is called No Spectators, but we still are going to have plenty of spectators. In fact, most of what we do here is spectating. It's 99% of what we do. And so we're kind of like, well, how can we sort of comfortably ease people into this? Really, it's the show. And being in a museum is very strange bedfellows, basically. They don't necessarily want to sit together well. So it takes a lot of work to try to make these things jive. 

Speaker 2 (24:15):
And I think the reason for that is that the purpose of a museum and the purpose of Bernie, and man, I'll get to tell you more about this, but it's contradictory in a way. 

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Oh, absolutely. 

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah. And for me, it's because the purpose of a museum is to maintain and protect great pieces of art so that future generations can appreciate them. Bernie Man is the exact opposite. One of our principles is immediacy. And at the end of the event in general, things go up in fire and you burn it, and you'll never see it again in general. So for me, what I love about Burning Man is the art is meant to be touched because you don't have to preserve it for the future generations. You can put your greasy fingerprints on it, and that's okay. 

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Another sort of weird way the worlds do not necessarily jive together is that a museum by definition is about somebody saying, yes, that is in No, that is not. Yes, this is in, no, that is not. So everything in the building, somebody has made a choice both whether to accept it into the collection. That's one level of the Yes no, the curatorial process is all about somebody saying, yes, this deserves to be here. No, this does not. And then in the exhibition of it, so this room we're sitting in, somebody made a choice about every one of these artworks that it should be in here at this time. Some of those are practical. This is really big. Nobody wants to move it. Some of those are about preference of what somebody thinks is historically important. So that is the premise of a museum. And an exhibition is also like that. Somebody is saying, yes, this is in, no, this is not. But Burning Man is not like that Burning Man is based on, like you said, you can do what you want basically. So I mean, is that your experience too with it? 

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think about my art. I mean, we do have a general organization. There's a coordinator of art who brings in, and there's also art grants where you can get funding for art, but I also often bring rogue art, which is uncoordinated. I didn't tell anyone in advance that I was bringing in. I just brought it. It's set it up. It's six feet to eight feet tall. It's a big old thing. No one knew was going to be there, and it just is. So yeah, that's actually very common in the Burning Man culture. You just bring what you want and contribute however you choose to contribute. 

Speaker 1 (26:42):
And I mean, even that sort of saying, this is in here, this is in here, an exhibition is always just by definition a collection of a limited number of things. So because of that, it casts a certain image of that thing too. So I know when I was reading sort of burner responses to this exhibition when it was at the Renwick, there were people who were saying things that I think are probably very true. This exhibition doesn't feel, it doesn't have the silliness that they might be used to at Burning Man. There's maybe a lack of playfulness that they feel is a part of the culture. And it's like, yeah, that's probably just by the nature of what was selected to be in that somebody could have put things that felt more silly and playful, I would say. I feel like the Capitol Theater is pretty playful, but it maybe is not in the same way they were meaning, and maybe in things that are also a little more handmade too, because that piece is very polished as well. So you look like you had a question. 

Speaker 4 (27:43):
Well, so I was excited that you brought up the whole point of the dichotomy of Burning Man from the general perspective of what I'd known about it in a museum, because to me, that's what is courageous about it and what drew me in. And I feel like it's very accepting then of, like you said, the queer culture and the fact of here's this thing that's normally just isolated and these different burning concepts, and then it's brought into the bigger area that is sometimes felt as very restrictive, and are you accepted? Are you not accepted? So I find it very courageous that your museum brought this in and it's going to be baby steps. 

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think that's a very good point of, I think what I always think about Burning Man, and what I was really curious about it is the principles of it feel very queer in a way of, I'm using queer in the very academicy way of queer theory when we think about art making and things that are maybe going against the grain in whatever is the kind of predominant force in that way. So I think Burning Man is totally working in that way by sort of presenting things that the sort of anti-authoritarian way you're talking about it. And it's really tricky because museums are always kind of authoritarian. What can we change about our practice to be less authoritarian as museum people too? It can be really hard just to break out of old habits and to just be like, well, that's all it is. We can't do any other way. And then you're like, well, is it maybe there are other ways? 

Speaker 4 (29:15):
What areas are you allowed to be playful in? Is it appropriate if it's a very solemn piece, but maybe it's placed in an area where you could laugh and 

Speaker 1 (29:22):
You joke? Yeah, I mean it's really, it's hard to get into those things. Where are you draw the line. I mean, how are we tied down by chronology? That is how we traditionally present things sort of. But we also then feel the need to separate things by countries kind of right. There's always times I'm like, oh, I would love to see something from the Asian wing that is really the same time from medieval art, basically of medieval Europe, but you never see those two things together. So I mean, those are the kind of ways that tradition has locked museums into how we present things. And so the kind of playfulness of these things, the fact that a lot of them are meant to not last very long, that all sort of goes against that idea too. Any other thoughts? 

Speaker 5 (30:14):
You as a gay man, how has that helped people perceive you and kind of look at you? I know a lot of my friends are not straight and myself, I am not straight. So I was wondering how has that kind of helped people see you and get to know you? 

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Oh, well, I can talk about both worlds, the Burning Man world, and then also in the default world. So in the Burning Man world, it's interesting because I came out to them saying, I've got a partner, I'm gay. And they just kind of ignored it almost. They're like, yeah, whatever. I don't care. But what I realized is that my camp mates who have now since become very good friends, I have to now, now they say something have to be the gay guy who corrects them about, no, that's not what happens on RuPaul's Drag Race, and this is what we do. You know what I mean? This is who Ms. Vane is. That's the important thing. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (31:06):
So it's interesting because 

Speaker 2 (31:07):
In my experience in the Bernie Mountain world, I've become in a way, an educator or a bridge to the gay default world because they just don't care either way. They're just like, oh, oh, you watch RuPaul, you're a 

Speaker 5 (31:21):
Person. You're not this Oma. 

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Exactly. Yeah. And well, in Burning Man also, there's just so many gay people and so many people were just out and more fluid than distinctly a label that I'll talk more about people who are there for the first time, their eyes are open in that, oh my gosh, this is an example of a world where it doesn't matter. And they learn how much it actually doesn't matter, and they learn to live like that. And I think that they take that home with them to also realize it really doesn't matter. It doesn't impact me. It doesn't really affect them. 

Speaker 2 (31:58):
On the reverse side though, being part of Burning Man has helped me be more comfortable in being super duper out in the default world. And that before Burning Man, I was like, well, wear a rainbow flag when I'm at Pride and all that stuff. But Burning Man has really taught me to be like, I am who I am. This is who I am. I'm not a we rainbow flag waving kind of gay guy, but I'm super out and I'm very confident and casual and who I am and talk about who I am and all that kind of stuff. So it's actually helped me in both directions. 

Speaker 1 (32:30):
When do you think that change happened and why do you think it happened? 

Speaker 2 (32:33):
I think it actually happened immediately because it was so open at the first Burning Man regional event that I attended, that everyone was just Be Who You are. And that for me was actually a struggle because took me a while in that event to find out, wait, who am I? Because what you start realizing is how much you focus on how you present yourself and how you correct the authentic version of yourself. So you start thinking about like, wait, do I control my hand motions a lot? And then because you have to think about what are the guards that I put up in order to present myself the way I want to present myself? So it was pretty, I think, immediate as far as realizing when you don't have to do that, you have start to realize how much have I already ingrained into my own personality of all these different mechanisms. 

Speaker 1 (33:24):
So you think you've pretty successfully sort of shed maybe those instincts, like say when it sounds like you have a pretty straightforward office job 

Speaker 2 (33:33):
And 

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Your day-to-day life. So do you think you find yourself policing behaviors in any way in that world still? 

Speaker 2 (33:41):
I would say that for me personally, I don't police my behaviors as far as I got to act more straight in this meeting and I need to be more dominant. And I can't be like, oh my God, you guys. So now I don't do that. And whereas in the past I would've. But I also feel like a quick side note, Bernie man has taught me how to be very welcoming to people. So when you go to an event, you'll be surprised at how happy everyone is and specifically how happy they're to see you, who they have never met in their life, but they're very happy to see you and to get to know you and genuinely care about you in a way. And my other teammates have talked about this, how wherever we are, we apply that to our world where, Hey, it's so good to see you, this person that I work with, but I don't really interact with. It's good to see you, and we're very welcoming peoples. I dunno, that's one of the other changes I've noticed. 

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, that's really fascinating. I hadn't really considered the kind of code switching 

Speaker 2 (34:37):
We 

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Do and the way that Burning Man could be sort of a liberating force for that. I don't know. I don't think I police it too much, but I totally can think of times when I do. I can totally think of times where I'm like, yeah, you're buting it up, but just a touch 

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Here aren't up you. But 

Speaker 1 (34:57):
I don't really worry about it all that much. But I definitely think about it occasionally, like, oh yeah, I mean, if I talk to a mechanic, I'm totally going to be a little bit more straight. I can't help myself. I don't know why. Well, if someone wanted to be a first time Burning 

Speaker 2 (35:16):
Man participant or whatever that would be called newbie term, the Virgin. Well, now there's a new term called a learner burner because apparently virgins and virgins new people don't like that term. So now we call them learner burners, apparently, which I'm good with. Yeah, good. So how do you know what to pack and how to show up and when to show up and that whole gifting, and how much should you give and is there something in return when someone gives you something? Yeah, so I can talk a little bit about that in that as far as when to go and where to go. If you just go to Burning man.org, you can find out all about the big burn, but also they have a link that connects to regional burns. So regional burns occur throughout the globe. The second largest Burning Man event outside of the big burn is Africa Burn. 

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Actually, that happens I think in South Africa. I'm not really sure where, but there's lots of burns everywhere. I'll be in 2020, I'm going to go to Kiwi Burn, which is in New Zealand. It's going to be amazing. So anyhow, the Burning Man webpage can tell you about it. I can speak specifically here in the tri-state area, there is Scorch Nuts, which is on the border of Ohio and Virginia. That happens every Memorial Day. There is Mosaic, which is the same location, which is in October coming up there is Lakes of Fire, which is up near Detroit. It's about the largest burn in our area. So about 3000 people in July. There's Transformers, which is kind of in Georgia ish area. So if you wanted to go to a burn, that's about 1500 people, so considered a medium-sized burn. But yeah, so anyhow, it's all there Now as far as what to bring and how to prepare. 

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Every single Burning Man event has a survival guide, is what they call it. So things to pack, things to think about, things to prepare for, and all that stuff. Every location has its own specific intricacies. For example, at the burn, big burn, you're in the desert, so you need to prepare for very hot and very cold, but dusty as well. The regional burn that I just went to, they're in, not abandoned, but no longer functioning quarry. That's where the grass has grown over and all that stuff. And there's a lot of wind and rain and hail and stuff like that. So each event has what's called a survival guide, burning Man, I should say. I'm not sure if you mentioned it there, even on the ticket still today, it says you might die. So Burning Man is almost inherently meant to be dangerous in a way. It's definitely meant to be inconvenience to get to because you have to work for it. But they're very dangerous events as well. And that's where when you talk about art, interacting with art can be very dangerous. So a lot of people try to climb the art and the art falls over, and these are not meant to be temporary things, so they're not bolted down. Whereas in the museum, they're very safe. You can't touch it, don't touch, don't hurt yourself. So there are these survival guide that you can read as well. 

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, I've seen lots of images of people climbing these massive sculptures out in the desert and then heard stories of like, yeah, they had to shut that one down after too many people fell off of it, and they had to keep people from climbing it after that. 

Speaker 2 (38:32):
I'm very proud of that. One of my installations is still viewed as the most dangerous art installation ever at one of our events. 

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Please give more details, I'll tell you about it. So there's a Japanese artist called Yayoi Kusama. She does infinity rooms. And an infinity room is an enclosed box. Think of a cube and think of your inside the cube, and there's mirrors everywhere above you, below you beneath to the sides of you. It's all dark, and there are just specks of lights, strings of L e d lights that a shimmer and dimm and things. So when you look at the mirrors, the reflection of the lights reflect from one wall off to the other wall off to the other wall, creating an affinity reflection. It reflects back and back and forth. So one little light can turn into literally a million little specks of light that you're looking at. So I built that at a regional burn. It was so hot that the adhesives that I used to keep the mirrors onto the walls that I built melted. And so the glass panes mirror panes started to fall in people. So when you think about it, you're sitting down, you're looking in the dark, and there's mirrors above you, and the mirrors just kind fall on your head. And then because they made out of glass, 

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Oh my gosh. 

Speaker 2 (39:49):
So they had to shut. They had our installation down because it was just too dangerous for people. But those are the kinds of things that happen at Bernie, man. 

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah. Oh boy. 

Speaker 2 (39:58):
And that's what happens when you interact with arts. The art also will interact with you. 

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, thank you so much for being our guest today and for chatting with us all. Thanks. 

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Thanks for having me. Sure. 

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art. General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. This special exhibition on view right now is No Spectators, the Art of Burning Man. If you'd like to be a part of a gallery experience like you heard today, join us on June 23rd at 3:00 PM for Let the Burner Be Your Guide. You'll meet burners and museum staff in the front lobby to be led on a journey through the special exhibition, no spectators, the Art of Burning Man. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Aron Music Hall by Blau. And as always, if you enjoy our show, why not leave us a nice review or rating, or you can also take the survey which helps us learn more about our listeners@cincinnatiartmuseum.org slash podcast. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.