Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): I think you hit upon a very critical idea, which is that the part is as much a part of the whole as the whole is a part of the part. Speaker 1 (00:26): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell Iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Annu Mitra, one of our docents who joined me to take a look at the special exhibition, the Fabric of India. I'm here with Annu Mitra. Did I say your name right by the way? Speaker 2 (00:59): You did say it right. Speaker 1 (01:00): Okay, thank you. You don't have that many syllables to mess up, so that's a good thing. Right? Speaker 2 (01:04): That's a good thing. Speaker 1 (01:05): A nice thing about having a short name is Speaker 2 (01:06): People Speaker 1 (01:06): Can't really slaughter it too badly, but I know people put stresses on weird things sometimes. So we are in the fabric of India exhibition right now, Speaker 2 (01:16): And Speaker 1 (01:17): We're standing right when you come in the exhibition, you have this sort of beautiful wall hanging and a piece of fashion next to it, and then right across from it is a map. And so we're looking at that map right now. Speaker 2 (01:29): And I guess my claim to fame is that I'm a docent at the Cincinnati Art Museum, and I'm so proud to be one. And I'm also of Indian descent. I was born and raised in India in a city called K Kata in West Bengal. That's where the Cincinnati Bengals gets its name from, Speaker 1 (01:48): Honestly, from the state of Bengal. Like a Bengal tiger. Speaker 2 (01:50): Yes, exactly. So the map of India, here it is lots of pockets of expertise in terms of where fabrics are produced. They are created and designed and woven, processed, dyed, the whole nine yards. And actually I say the nine yards because that's the average length of Asari that Indian women wear. So India is a big country, lots of states, lots of diversity in there. One third the size of the United States. Speaker 1 (02:25): I was just about to ask, yeah, if you were to fly from Kota down to the tip here at the bottom, how long would that take you? Probably Speaker 2 (02:34): From here to here would probably be about three and a half, four hours flying time. Speaker 1 (02:39): Yeah. So Speaker 2 (02:41): Yeah, from the top to the bottom, from Jamon Kashmir to the bottom is about 2000 miles, give or take a little bit. And from the west to the east, that is about, what? 1600 miles? So it's a big country. Oh Speaker 1 (02:56): Yeah. Yeah. It's very Speaker 2 (02:57): Large. Three of these would fit inside the United States. So I was born and raised in Kolkatta, and I lived there till I finished my bachelor's degree. And then I came to the United States as a student. And the rest is history, as they say, but I feel very rooted to my home country. And over the last several years, without dating myself, I want to tell you that I've been away from the country for almost close to 40 years, let's say. Speaker 1 (03:26): Oh, wow. Speaker 2 (03:26): Yes. I've gone back twice a year, every year. Speaker 1 (03:31): Really? Speaker 2 (03:31): My passport is littered with stamps from India and stamps from Cincinnati, Ohio. So this is a very, very diverse multicultural nation. It has been invaded many times. The Portuguese came in here in the 14 hundreds. The Morga Empire came in here before that. I'm not going historically Alexander the great lots and lots of different invasions. And that's why when you see people from Indian heritage, from Indian origin, you will see Northern Indian people, very big shoulder, very tall, very chiseled features, sort of like the Gandara sculptures of Afghanistan and Pakistan. And then in the south, they are much more native. This would be people of Dian descent, much more darker skin, shorter stouter. So that's the genetic belonging that we impute to people from these regions. Speaker 1 (04:37): Interesting. Speaker 2 (04:38): Yeah. Speaker 1 (04:38): Alright, well let's keep moving along here. So we're just going to kind of walk through the show and maybe stop and talk at a few interesting things to us. So the first thing, kind of part of the show is really all about processes and about dying, the production of silk, which we have these great little cocoons here that I love seeing. Speaker 2 (05:01): And Speaker 1 (05:01): Actually, this video that's here I thought was really fascinating to watch these women sort of unspool cocoons. I don't know, I was just so unaware. I mean, I understood where self came from, but until you see somebody do it on the actual cocoon, it just feels so alien or something. You're just like, oh yeah, that happened somewhere. Now I'm watching this man dump out a bag full of thousands of cocoons. Speaker 2 (05:25): That's right. That's right. So the thing to remember about the fabric of India is that it is almost like an oral tradition. It's been handed down family to family village to village for almost four or 5,000 years. And it relates to the making of curtains, making of silk and everything in between. And so the thing to remember about this amazing exhibition, which has come from the Victorian Albert, thanks to Cindy Amni, is that the Indian craftsman, craftswoman was an absolute expert in the spinning and weaving process. So actually making the cloth, the designing of the icons, the symbolism that we see, and the dying process, and in fact in all of this, getting the cocoons, rearing them really like a child and steaming them and making the threads come out of the salivary glands of these larvae that are in the cocoons. And then spinning the yarn and knowing how much to get out of the cocoons so that it is a single thread, which is then woven in all of this process, the method of fixing the color to the cloth. This is where the Indian fabric designer, the fabric artisan and craftsperson really executed their expert knowledge. Speaker 1 (07:13): Well, we can kind of walk over here. We have some examples of those colors and some of the materials used to make some of the colors. Oh yeah. So over here we have the indigo. Speaker 2 (07:23): Yes. So the indigo is absolutely the iconic dye. And again, the modern that was used modern, the chemical natural, the natural substance, it's not a chemical substance. The modern is the natural substance used to fix the color to the clot. And so this is where they sort of manifested their expertise in terms of the indigo. This is where India gets its name from indigo, from the word indigo. And this was absolutely amazing as a plant material and what the Indian craftsman was able to get out of that knowledge. So here is a pictorial representation of the plant itself. The indigo plant, when it's in full sunshine, the indigo color is light blue. Speaker 1 (08:19): When Speaker 2 (08:19): It is shaded, the color is dark. This is the only color that does not need a modern. So when it is processed in a way that the dye is fixed, then the cloth is boiled in this material, in this indigo solution. And when it emerges and it hits the oxygen in the air, when the color is oxygenated, then it fixes to the Speaker 1 (08:52): Blue. Speaker 2 (08:53): And so there are various kinds, blue, like I said, indigo does not need a morin, the blue color, the light blue shades, the dark blue, the velvety blues, et cetera. And so they are able to calibrate in terms of the red, the lack, the chair roots or the lack, which is the insect, which settles on a plant and gives off this resin from its own body, which creates the color. So that would need a mort, the substance that would help the color stick to the cloth. And turmeric, which is a big thing in the West now because it helps in the easefulness of joints and other parts of the body as the body ages. These are also used to make the red color for the lac and the roots and the yellow color for the turmeric. And of course mixed with indigo. You get greens, you get different kinds of hues. And this is where the modern would be used. Speaker 1 (09:58): And this is also something when we were just talking about the history, you were saying the color is where India really could show off, and that's what they were really coming up with. Colors that nobody had made before, Speaker 2 (10:11): Nobody had made, and this was 2000 BC or even before that. The other thing to remember about color and moderns, dyes and processing and all of that is that the colors are fixed. They are not going to fade as you wash the clothes. So this kind of chemistry, this chemical expertise, really knowing the material, knowing the natural resources available to them, and then using natural substances to fix the color to the fabric, that is incredible. And all this was expertly conceptualized and executed 2,500 years before the common era. So that is pretty mind Speaker 1 (10:59): Blowing. It's very impressive. Now we can keep moving on, but as we're walking, I'm just kind of curious. Growing up in India, were you sort of aware of the importance of these processes or what kind of sense of it did you have? I guess I am just kind curious. It just seems like these things that I'm completely unaware about. Yes, yes. Speaker 2 (11:21): I was aware of these processes. And when we go into the nationalism, the protest area, I'm going to tell you a little bit of background information on my grandmother and what she did with SRIs. But something like this, which is the Ika print, Speaker 1 (11:37): Where Speaker 2 (11:38): The warp and the weft are woven in particular ways to provide designs. And these are iconic designs that have existed in the visual field for thousands of years. In fact, I'm wearing an ika haw today just so that you can touch it and see it. And so you see the iconic, the traditional designs, and this is juxtaposed with a much more modern design to make it modern and relevant. I also had you smell my shawl, Speaker 1 (12:14): Russell. You did? Yes. Speaker 2 (12:16): And your impression of the smell, Speaker 1 (12:18): It was maybe not my favorite smell. Speaker 2 (12:20): Yes. Thank you for being so kind in your description. It smells really bad because it's all vegetable dye. Speaker 1 (12:28): There Speaker 2 (12:28): Is nothing chemical or synthetic about any of this. Speaker 1 (12:32): That's so interesting. And that was something I'm glad you brought that we were talking about. That's one thing you don't get to do with the museum exhibit is smell the fabrics. Exactly. They don't want you really getting that close usually to get a good whiff of things. Speaker 2 (12:47): So I bought this shawl, the one that I'm wearing from an artisan in Madia Pradesh about three years ago. And when I first bought it, I could not wear it because it smells so bad. And from airing it and just keeping it aired in the house, in my house, I was able to get rid of that smell and then start using it. Speaker 1 (13:09): That's so funny that you have to have a period of like, whoa, I can't wear this right away. We're going to know I'm going to have to build in a year before I can wear it to let off the sink. Speaker 2 (13:19): Exactly. And for people who are listening in who have no experience of what it smells like, it really smells bad. It smells like a child's throw up. For instance. Speaker 1 (13:30): Oh gosh, when you said that, you're right. Speaker 2 (13:33): Yes. Speaker 1 (13:33): I didn't really try to place it with another smell, but now that you say it, you're right. Speaker 2 (13:38): Yes. Yeah, it does. So I ask your forgiveness and smelling really bad today, rose. Speaker 1 (13:42): Oh my gosh. Well, luckily it's not that strong. I had to get my nose right up on it before I could really smell it. Speaker 2 (13:49): Yes. So these are different designs, different ways in which the fabric is treated embroidered. There is batory, there is Ur, there is ika. Of course. Speaker 1 (14:08): And I'm going to interrupt you real quick because the thing about Ikat that I don't think we talked about is that what I thought was really fascinating about it is the threads are died before being woven. Speaker 2 (14:18): Correct. Speaker 1 (14:19): And that's so crazy. I did not know this was a thing people did because if you look at these designs, I mean, they have pictures in them. They're not just abstract. I mean, they have little decorative abstract shapes and stuff too. But this one we're looking at has elephants on it as flowers. It has birds. And so those threads were dyed as threads stretched out. And then they have to plan it so well that when Speaker 2 (14:44): It's woven Speaker 1 (14:45): Together, it creates an image. Speaker 2 (14:47): It creates an image, the birds, the elephant, the elephants. You see, if we had to relate it to something in the modern world today for fans of this show called The Survivor, which I see with my son a lot, it's like a group project where if one person drops the ball, then the whole thing comes to waste the whole effort. So the I or haw would have 6, 7, 8 people handling the process. Different threads, different designs, the wharf, the weft, and so on and so forth. And it's like surgery. It has to go completely as planned. Speaker 1 (15:34): Yeah, it's really impressive. It's really impressive. It's one of those processes that I learned about from the show that again, I had no idea about Speaker 2 (15:42): This Speaker 1 (15:42): Bright, we're looking at this, sorry, here. It's not draped over a mannequin. It's just it hanging up. Which that is such a fascinating thing about the sari is when you just look at it, it's just a big, really long piece of cloth. It becomes something so magical by folding it or draping it in the right way. But it's got this gorgeous hot pink almost. And what's the year on this? Speaker 2 (16:08): This is 1867. I mean, Speaker 1 (16:12): This looks so new. So Speaker 2 (16:14): New, right? New. Speaker 1 (16:15): I guess I don't know mean just we think especially in Western world, when we think of 1867, maybe because we only have black and white photographs, that's probably a big part of it. We think of it as so drab looking and dark. And to think of these colors coming out of India, Speaker 2 (16:32): That's Speaker 1 (16:33): This. I mean, it's just so gorgeous. Speaker 2 (16:35): So gorgeous. And again, the sari's sort of like architecture. It forms a sculptural piece around all kinds of body types. It's nine yards for the most part. And there are more than a hundred ways in which to drape a sre. And the way in which it is most commonly dred with the palu going over the left shoulder allows for a lot of space, especially in the leg area. And that is because at least in Kolkatta where I grew up, it is about 110, 120 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer with almost a hundred percent humidity. So you need a lot of cool airspace Speaker 1 (17:22): And Speaker 2 (17:22): Flow. No one in their right mind, especially a woman in my generation, would wear pants and things like that because it was too constricting and too unnatural to wear in that hot weather. Of course, the South Indian SRE styles that you see over here, the designs are completely different from the North Indian. And so that is something else that one can see as one way. Speaker 1 (17:46): And when looking at that map, you can see the distance there. So it's easy to understand the cultural differences you would have all the way across such a huge, vast country. It's easy to imagine. Well, yeah, somebody all the way at the bottom is doing something totally different from somebody all the way at the top. Speaker 2 (18:03): Correct. So the temple architecture of the south would also be reflected in the designs of the series. Speaker 1 (18:09): Oh, really? Speaker 2 (18:09): Yes. And it's really quite remarkable. Speaker 1 (18:13): This area over here, we're kind of walking through a part that has a lot of ornamentation and things. And this is one of my favorite parts of the exhibition is this little, it's like a border for a dress is what it's called here. And if you didn't pay attention to it too closely, you would just think, oh, that's a very beautiful green sequence that are making this very pretty flowery, ornate pattern. It feels very European. And then when you read the description, or even just the materials, you see cotton muslin with beetle wing. Speaker 2 (18:49): Yes. Speaker 1 (18:50): So these are all little beetle wings. Speaker 2 (18:52): That's right. Speaker 1 (18:53): Just so crazy. Speaker 2 (18:55): So crazy. And nature is so magnificent. There is so much color in India year, and I don't know exactly why that is. So maybe a sociologist or an anthropologist would give us better insights. But my insight is that with a country of 4 billion people, billion with a B, and with so much poverty and such a distance between the people who have and those who have not, life is so stark Speaker 1 (19:31): At Speaker 2 (19:31): Many levels. And that's why at all levels of society, you see this infusion of amazing colors, of hot pinks and oranges and greens and the silver and the gold that you see, which is woven into the cloth. So there's a lot of color and a lot of joy expressed through the daily interaction with color subconsciously or unconsciously, whatever it is. But it's a very nice way in which to relate to your environment. Speaker 1 (20:09): I've never been to India, but whenever I've been to sort of hotter climates and other countries that are closer to the equator, I feel like the natural environment is also just brighter in color. And I've always wondered if that influences things too, because when actually I'm about to get on a plane to Brazil, and I remember the last time I was there, I was just driving through just normal kind of countryside, but I'm like, the green is so green, and then there's this red clay that's so red. And I remember being in Costa Rica and some grasshopper landing on me, and it had bright orange wings and things. That's Speaker 2 (20:45): Right. Speaker 1 (20:45): And you're just, compared to the nature of Cincinnati, which we don't get a lot of bright, vibrant colors naturally in the thing. And so I kind of always wondered, Speaker 2 (20:55): Does Speaker 1 (20:56): That also maybe influence the way what seems appropriate for the environment? Well, nature looks like this, so why don't we dress like this? That's right. Why don't we, and this is a perfect example of that, because we have literally insect wings that are super vibrant, Speaker 2 (21:13): That are jewels, right? Yeah. Oh my gosh, Speaker 1 (21:15): They're so gorgeous. Speaker 2 (21:16): So Speaker 1 (21:17): Gorgeous. Well, maybe we should keep moving. We've got a lot to sea. Keep moving. I know. And we're kind of going to probably have to start running past things. It's a shame because this is a super fascinating part of the show, especially this room. I love. I'm just a sucker for walking into a space where you're surrounded by art. Speaker 2 (21:34): Yes. So this is a wall hanging, and as we heard from the curator from the V n A in London, this was found on the streets of Brooklyn. And someone said, do you want it? Someone contacted the museum and they said, of course. So again, this is so vibrant, and this is an immersive experience meant to show the joy in nature, the floral beauty, the geometric shapes and sizes that surround all of us. So again, it could be interpreted as someone having a victory, winning an effort that is important, Speaker 1 (22:20): But Speaker 2 (22:20): It's also reflective of all the daily struggles that people go through. And when I saw this for the first time, hanging in this space over here at the Cincinnati Art Museum, I said to my friend, Helen, Helen, I have so many of these at home and I am constantly wanting to get rid of them. Now I think I have to be a little more respectful. Speaker 1 (22:42): That's hilarious. Because I think whenever I tell the story, when I actually, you did it the opposite way, I would tell it, which is I bring people in here and then I show them and get them all impressed. And I go, and they found it in the garbage. Yes. On the streets in Brooklyn. And then people go, what? But it's so funny because you have the almost exact opposite response where it's almost like you kind of understand that somebody would throw it out. You're like, yeah, I would get rid of this. Speaker 2 (23:07): Exactly. Because it's a natural dust catcher. And over time, over several years of living in India and going there, Speaker 1 (23:16): Going Speaker 2 (23:16): Back there, so many people have given us gifts of these hangings. Oh, really? And they are immersive. They cover huge expanses of wall space, which we do not have. So I am happy to bring it to our esteemed curator over here to see if she wants any of that. Speaker 1 (23:34): You can save the trouble of putting it out in the trash and then letting somebody else discover it. You can just bring it straight here. Speaker 2 (23:39): Exactly. Exactly. Speaker 1 (23:40): That is so funny. So those were a little bit more kind of things for the home and some of the more domestic stuff we had been looking at. And there's an area of the show that's sort of all are themed around the sacred and religion in India. And I think one of the things, people, again, we were talking about the scale of the country. I think people don't realize how incredibly diverse religiously India is. You have all the major religions represented and then some. So there's this piece here that I just think is just jaw droppingly, amazing, beautiful, weird. And it is this talismanic shirt that has the entire Koran written on it in this teeny tiny little script. Speaker 2 (24:26): And Speaker 1 (24:27): It is gorgeous. It is also just like the cloth looks very papery. So there's something about it that also just feels like you're wearing a book, Speaker 2 (24:40): All 6,236 verses of the Quran. Speaker 1 (24:44): Wow. Speaker 2 (24:44): Yes. And of course, this is meant to be a mantra, Speaker 1 (24:49): Like Speaker 2 (24:49): A talisman with protective qualities. So the person wearing it obviously comes from a very high socioeconomic background, an important position in court or whatever. He would definitely wear it under his outer garments. So this would be an undergarment. And you can see the stains under his arms over there. So you can tell that this has been used Speaker 1 (25:19): Quite Speaker 2 (25:20): Heavily. You see the medallions over there, which are very symbolic of Islamic art, lots and lots of calligraphy in designs and floral patterns, all symbolic of Islamic art. And again, like you said, Russell India is multicultural, interdisciplinary, all over kind of experience with all the religions represented. There's a significant Islamic community. Hinduism is the largest religion, but there is Buddhism, jism, Sikhism, Christianity, Arianism. There's a very significant Jewish community, Armenian Jewish community. So there's a very high level of religious tolerance. It's a very secular democracy. Until recently, just recently in the last 10 years or so, there's been a lot of nationalistic jingoistic kind of fervor Speaker 1 (26:22): Everywhere Speaker 2 (26:24): Sort of. Yes. Yes. Speaker 1 (26:25): That's interesting. Speaker 2 (26:27): Interesting. Speaker 1 (26:28): I didn't know that India was also experiencing Speaker 2 (26:31): Yes, very much so. Speaker 1 (26:32): Nationalistic rise, it's pretty Speaker 2 (26:33): Much Speaker 1 (26:33): Very much so everywhere at this point. Speaker 2 (26:35): Yes. And that is to say, because you can never become a Hindu, you can never convert to Hinduism. You have to be born a Hindu. Speaker 1 (26:44): Really? Speaker 2 (26:45): Yes. Speaker 1 (26:46): I had no idea about this. Speaker 2 (26:47): With 60% of 4 billion people being Hindus, there was the fear in certain groups of people that Hinduism would die away. So that was the basis of this religious forward, this completely Hindu sort of affect and attitude in society. Speaker 1 (27:09): Oh, wow. Speaker 2 (27:10): Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (27:11): That's fascinating. I had no idea. Speaker 2 (27:12): Yeah, you can never convert to Hinduism. You can practice Hinduism, but you must be born a Hindu. Speaker 1 (27:18): Interesting. Speaker 2 (27:18): Yeah. Speaker 1 (27:19): Wow. Well have, I mean, we have Speaker 2 (27:21): Jainism and Christianity. Speaker 1 (27:25): There's a large crucifix piece over here just to kind of represent Christianity. And we're passing by several things. There's this amazing hanging here that I think is just, this is one of my favorite pieces in this show, this hanging. Is it gang? Speaker 2 (27:42): Yes. Gang Speaker 1 (27:43): Hanging. And it looks to me, and maybe a little bit more about it, but it looks like this is just sort of hand dyed, almost like painted on directly onto the fabric. Absolutely. And sort of different than the ECCO process we were talking about. It's a lot more tight and precise. So you can just tell somebody who was doing it by hand. Speaker 2 (28:06): And these sort of renderings of a religious or mythological, or stories based in legend are represented and reproduced very frequently for bed covers, Speaker 1 (28:23): For Speaker 2 (28:23): Wall hangings, for tablecloths, for anything that you can think of except for floor mats, because we would not step on a God or a goddess. You see these everywhere in Indian homes. And again, Gama is the resident deity of Andra Pradesh, where this wall hanging is from. Speaker 2 (28:46): But she would be an avatar. An avatar as you would say in Sanskrit would pronounce it, avatar, which is another rendition, an incarnation of Vishnu or Lakshmi. And she represents everything good. So she has many hands, lots of work to do. And sometimes you have people with many heads, many hands, just sort of signifying the nature of the work that has to be done in order to maintain goodness in life and society. And there is never an end to that kind of work. So she's fighting all kinds of demons. She has her hand on many things. In fact, there is a demon whose skull she's holding in her fingers over here in her hand. So I mean, there are lots and lots of legends associated with Gama. And if we go on along this way to the epics of Raman and Ham Haren. Yeah, Speaker 1 (29:49): We should go while we're talking about it. Let's move on down that way. Speaker 2 (29:53): Yes. Isn't the Raman over here somewhere? Oh, Speaker 1 (29:56): You know what? It's on the other side. Speaker 2 (29:57): Oh, it is on the other side. Speaker 1 (29:58): Okay. Speaker 2 (29:58): Then we Speaker 1 (29:59): Can just talk about the Speaker 2 (30:01): Jama. The jama. Okay. So the JAMA is literally means a frock. And so this is what men would wear in the mogul court in mogul India. So this is from a later area era, 1700 to 1800. This is 1867. The moguls were there from the 13 hundreds to roughly the 17 hundreds. The taal was built in 1650 ish. And the way to keep things figured out is that a man who was a Hindu would have the opening on the left side. And a person, a man who was a Muslim, would have it on the right side. The opening made a very, very fine cloth. This is block printed, this one over here. This is cotton trimmed with silk and silver gilt ribbon. So again, men would wear it, and under it, they would wear very narrow pants for ultimate comfort. So this is jama, and the word pajama came from here. Pajama pa means leg. So pajama is a frock or a dress for the leg. Speaker 1 (31:19): So I have to confess something. So on this Saturday, or last Saturday, we had family first Saturday. And the cultural center of India did this program with fashion and dance. And about, I don't know, 30 minutes before it started, they said, oh, you can be our male model. And she brought me an outfit to put on that was not like this exactly, but it had those pants that you were describing. And on stage she referred to them as pajama pants. And I kind of thought, this seems like a very royal outfit. It seemed very formal. So it was just like you would sleep in these. Speaker 2 (31:56): No, you would not. Speaker 1 (31:57): Now it makes a lot more sense. She was saying that's just what they're called. That's so funny. I Speaker 2 (32:03): Did so colloquially, they, they're called Kurt and pajama, Speaker 1 (32:07): Kurt Speaker 2 (32:08): Pajama. But the pajamas, proper word for it is, so they're tight pants made of loose cotton, and they're very, very comfortable. Speaker 1 (32:18): And Speaker 2 (32:18): Again, to accommodate the hot climate, the humidity in the south, the dryness in the north. So this is the Raman story. Speaker 1 (32:28): So Speaker 2 (32:28): Ramana, the epic is older than the Maha hath. And in Ramana, the God drama is an avatar of Vishnu. Speaker 2 (32:40): And he fights Ana, who is the many head of demon, because Ana had stolen, his wife had stolen Rama's wife. And so there's a horrific battle that ensues over good and evil. Ram is held helped by the Mann, by Mann monkey gods. Oh, cool. And they invade Ravennas territory. And over a series of amazing feats, Ravennas conquered and Ram comes back from exile with his wife Sita. So again, all these stories are about the journey, about finding yourself, finding his manhood, finding his purpose. And in the ham Hari, the avatar of Vishnu is Krishna. And Krishna is giving advice to Arjun on how to live life and how to make the most amazing transformative decisions which are going to serve everyone well. So there's a very moral and philosophical and ethical side to all of this Speaker 1 (33:49): Beyond Speaker 2 (33:50): Religion. So it's beyond dogma. Speaker 1 (33:53): Yeah. I think when you're talking about the avatars here and there, it's something interesting that I don't think a lot of people understand about Hinduism. And certainly I'm no expert either. I just sort of picked up a little bit here and there. But that idea of the way things are kind of nested inside, and it's like everything can be all and one at the same time. It's an interesting idea that's maybe at one hand feels very foreign to maybe somebody who grew up in just a Christian home. Speaker 2 (34:27): But Speaker 1 (34:28): On the other hand, it's not that different than the Trinity Speaker 2 (34:31): In Speaker 1 (34:31): The way that you can understand. This thing can be many things, or this thing can be one thing. And there's many facets to one thing. Speaker 2 (34:41): Exactly. I think you hit upon a very critical idea, which is that the part is as much a part of the whole as the whole is a part of the part. So that's why people are, they believe in karma Speaker 1 (34:56): And Speaker 2 (34:56): They believe in reincarnation in Hinduism. And this is not to deny or to negate the terrible things that happen to people in this life, but they feel that people feel, especially people who come from very oppressive situations, they feel that it is their karma to go through the difficulty so that they can come into an awareness of their bigger presence in this cosmos. So it, it's a very, very freeing and liberating idea, but it does not take away from the challenges of really having difficult lives. Speaker 1 (35:33): So I want to walk around the corner here. Speaker 2 (35:35): I want to show you the protest, the Kadi. The Gandhiji war. So he carried a loom with him, Speaker 1 (35:45): And Speaker 2 (35:45): He spun cloth at least for an hour every day. So he had a portable loom, and he encouraged other people who were attending his meetings in droves to spin as well as a way of protesting the fact that starting from the 1780s or so, the British caught on that the textile industry was huge in India. They had 60% of the world's market share, and they wanted dibs into that. Speaker 1 (36:15): And Speaker 2 (36:15): So what the British did was they sort of looked down upon all the handwoven, the handmade, the hand processed hand dyed phenomenon, and they went to Lancaster, Manchester and so on and so forth, and made these cotton mills and silk mills, which were bringing out yards and yards of cloth. And so starting from the 1840s to about 1947, which is when we got independence from the British women in good families such as my grandmother, they were organizing these huge neighborhood parties where all the women would go out and they would set a fire. All their British made SREs. Speaker 1 (37:06): Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 (37:07): And so my poor grandmother, this beautiful, elegant woman who was not very experienced in anything except reading books and having a great life, she went to jail for several weeks along with her people. And she was willing to do that as a way of protesting British oppression and colonialism and so on and so forth. Speaker 1 (37:31): Wow. And of course, this is why the spinning wheel is on the Indian flag. Speaker 2 (37:37): It is on the Indian flag. Exactly. Speaker 1 (37:39): Which I will admit I did not realize. It's one of those things where you just see flags and you go, oh, yeah, there's a little shape in the middle of it, and you don't stop and think about it. And it's really fascinating. I think it's a great way of Speaker 2 (37:53): The gandhiji spinning and making cloth. Speaker 1 (37:57): And Speaker 2 (37:57): Of course, the spinning wheel is a symbol of self-determination that with your simple individual daily efforts, you can change the course of history. And that's what people came to an awareness of Speaker 1 (38:10): That Speaker 2 (38:11): All was not lost. Just because the British had been there for hundreds of years did not mean that they were going to continue. So this was a way of saying, thank you. You've given us great infrastructure, you've given us a great education system as a model, and now it's time to say goodbye. Speaker 1 (38:30): Yes. Well, that is a perfect ending because I think it is now time for us to say goodbye because I think the show is opening for the public, and we're going to not have a quiet recording space anymore. Speaker 3 (38:40): So thank you so much for being my guest on it. Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art. General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are the fabric of India life, Jillian, wearing and collecting calligraphy arts of the Islamic world. Join us on Sunday, November 18th at 3:00 PM for a gallery experience all about the fabric of India. Enjoy an outside perspective on the exhibition from Arty Sandhu, associate Professor of Fashion Design at the University of Cincinnati. For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Aran Mu by Balal. And always, please rate and review us. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.