Speaker 1 (00:00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace, 

Speaker 2 (00:00:02):
It's very much what you 

Speaker 1 (00:00:03):
See illustrated in these dura prints of this kind of old ideal, just slowly either breaking apart or being held together by the seams. 

Speaker 2 (00:00:24):
Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is artist Joey Osa. 

Speaker 1 (00:00:46):
How you doing? I'm doing amazing. I said there was a big transition in terms of work life where I was doing adjuncting at the Art Academy of Cincinnati on top of teaching afterschool art at Schroeder Padilla on top of teaching two days a week at Coville Catholic on top of teaching Saturday classes from nine o'clock in the morning till three every Saturday for community ed. So I was kind of working six days a week and not making much money, no health insurance. And then 

Speaker 1 (00:01:22):
I wound up getting this amazing job at the high school I'm at now for semi and high school. I'm the art teacher, and we're building up this incredible fun arts program. I mean, we're doing a lot of interesting stuff. I mean, lessons right now from my art wine class, we're learning about the datas movement. And as the brink of World War I starts, there's this huge break with a number of those individuals in terms of thinking. And so we're learning about surface kind of situation, about Freud's unconscious and about using chance operation and kind of dialing into the unconscious because the conscious decisions of our aesthetics have been compromised as they believed, and then using the unconscious to make these things. So it's just to see young students find this kind of spot where they're asked to make rules. So I have a make rule, write down a weird rule that they have to do their drawing and they put it in a box, and then they all have to draw them. 

Speaker 2 (00:02:24):
Oh, yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:02:25):
And you see them and it's just, at first they're just paint something red. They're just, come on, really. And then later it's just take off your 

Speaker 2 (00:02:32):
Shoe and paint with your foot, 

Speaker 1 (00:02:33):
And it starts to get crazier and crazier from there. And the drawings are incredibly weird, and it's kind of great because they're just like, oh my God, that looks like 2012 internet stuff. And I'm like, right. So it's having them make these connections historically and culturally has been a blast. And the energy is incredible. The support system is amazing. It's kind of an amazing place, 

Speaker 2 (00:02:59):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:03:00):
I feel incredibly lucky to be there. 

Speaker 2 (00:03:03):
You know how to 

Speaker 1 (00:03:04):
Talk to high schoolers? Oh, yeah. You know how to do that. Oh yeah. That's a talent. They're great. Yes. Yes. They're incredible. No, they're incredible. I 

Speaker 2 (00:03:12):
Think I do. 

Speaker 1 (00:03:13):
Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:03:14):
Until I'm confronted with them. 

Speaker 1 (00:03:15):
You just stand there and you're like, oh. And then I 

Speaker 2 (00:03:18):
Realize like, oh, oh, I'm old and I don't know what I'm doing with these kids. 

Speaker 1 (00:03:24):
I get the advantage of being able to take my time and really grow with them, and they grow with me, and I am interested in what they're interested in. 

Speaker 1 (00:03:33):
So it's like at the same time where kind of exchanging these things, they're like, oh, have you ever listened to this Mr. V? And I'm like, no. Have you ever listened to this? And they're like, no. So we kind of get to exchange all of these things about culture that become incredibly amazing. Even with video games, there's a whole group of kids. Had my wife bought me, I don't know if you know, they're called, oh God, was it Data Disc? There's like three companies in particular. I think it's Play Asia, Mondo Records, Armando Tees and Data Disc. And they take 16 bit and eight bit music from video games, record the kind of program chips and burn it on, press it on vinyl. 

Speaker 2 (00:04:16):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:04:16):
They do these amazing vinyl pressings of eight bit, 16 bit 32 bit video game music and more. But she got me the Streets of Rage two soundtrack that Zoro did. And I brought it in and I had one of my students shout out to Amari. And Amari was just like, Mr. B is that Streets of Rage too? And I was like, yes. How do you notice? He's like, I just beat it the other day. And it's like there's this kind of, I don't know what happened. I think it's kind of like the indie game scene perhaps that's really rejuvenated this idea of looking back at games that originated with that kind of pixelated style. So there's this kind of relationship with pixel art, and I think there's also a relationship with games that are kind of puzzling, but also games that require memorization 

Speaker 2 (00:05:07):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:05:08):
Rhythm. And that's one of the things I think going back for myself into Retro Games, it's playing ninja guidance for the n e s. It's kind of amazing because I don't get it. The only other game I would get it from would be Dark Souls, but it's just like that memorization, you have to go in with a plan, 

Speaker 2 (00:05:25):
But 

Speaker 1 (00:05:25):
With Ninja guidance that's just so fast. You're just like, oh, rhythm hit there. No. Oh, so you get the same results until you change your habit, 

Speaker 2 (00:05:33):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:05:33):
Then you memorize something and you adapt to it. And then now I think we're presented with games that you adapt to, but then that adapts to you with Left for Dead 

Speaker 2 (00:05:44):
With the 

Speaker 1 (00:05:44):
Director. It's kind of like you making an adjustment and then that AI is like, 

Speaker 2 (00:05:48):
Oh, I'm going 

Speaker 1 (00:05:49):
To adjust now. And I mean, have you played any retro games? Have you gone back to play anything from our generation growing up 16 bit? You know what? 

Speaker 2 (00:06:01):
The only things I really go back and play regularly are RPGs sometimes. So I'll still play K Chrono Trigger every once in a while just because it's always like, oh, this is comforting to me to play Krono Trigger. 

Speaker 1 (00:06:13):
Totally. But that's 

Speaker 2 (00:06:15):
Probably, I 

Speaker 1 (00:06:15):
Mean, 

Speaker 2 (00:06:16):
I probably have a few things that I downloaded for different consoles and stuff a while back that I would go back and play periodically. Something comes out and I was like, oh, this is one of my favorite games. I totally have super good emotional vibes just from playing this thing. Totally. But when you're talking about kids and their connection to pixel art, one of the things that made me remember was when we were doing summer camp here, a lot of the kids would make these things with Legos where the Legos would function as pixels. And 

Speaker 1 (00:06:47):
That's an incredible 

Speaker 2 (00:06:49):
Crossover. They would make essentially a flat thing that stands because it's still a block. But they would make, and actually they would make, I remember a kid who would make a poop emoji a pretty good, I was always like, that's really good. He's even got the stink lines. That's really impressive. It's like Mo from the Simpson. It's even got the stink lines, but, 

Speaker 1 (00:07:14):
But a lot of the kids 

Speaker 2 (00:07:15):
Would work that way where they would be making animals, there'd be like 

Speaker 1 (00:07:19):
A 

Speaker 2 (00:07:19):
Lion or something. But it was almost like they were thinking in a very pixelated way. And I thought that was so interesting. And not even what I grew up seeing Legos used as I was like, 

Speaker 1 (00:07:30):
Oh, totally. 

Speaker 2 (00:07:31):
This is an interesting way of using Legos. This is really different. 

Speaker 1 (00:07:35):
No, it's an amazing shift too. And I mean, going back to that idea of connecting, it's kind of amazing too because we have, at our school, we have a thing that's called Family Time. So we divide it up and there's three teachers or whatever, and we have a group of kids. And it's nice because it's a gamut of freshmen, sophomores, juniors, and seniors. So it's a big mix, 

Speaker 2 (00:07:54):
A big 

Speaker 1 (00:07:54):
Spectrum of who we're getting in terms of grade levels. They spend that whole time with you. You have a bell, it's like 45 minutes. And my family in particular meets in the library. It's kind of great because some of the kids will get done and they'll do their homework and I'll go around, ask them how their grades doing, pull up their report cards to get everything's kept online. We'll look at things and talk about what's going on. But then there's the times where it's just like the kids will just break off. They don't have anything to do. And there's an avid group that go, and then they just watch streams of people playing whatever interesting game. And it's kind of amazing because for us, that would never signify or relate to playing a game. But to them it is. I mean, that's gaming to them. It's watching somebody else playing it, just watching and looking at method, and they're kind of learning from it. And it's kind of amazing that it's a tutorial system at one instance, but it's also entertainment and I don't know. And it's kind of awesome. 

Speaker 2 (00:08:53):
That generation is, I'm really interested. I think they've already shown that they have a totally different concept of fame. 

Speaker 1 (00:09:00):
Oh, totally. Totally. 

Speaker 2 (00:09:02):
The idea of fame. I think it would be hard for us to ever totally shake the idea of a separation of somebody being YouTube famous versus movie famous. But I don't necessarily think kids have any sort of sense of 

Speaker 1 (00:09:16):
That. Well, it's like when I was telling one student, because I'm friends with Corey from my life and gaming from me, and I was asking a student who I'd just kind of bonded with during lunch. He had talked about video games, and I'd found out that he's actually writing a video game for Doss. Whoa. Like Old Sierra video games. And I was like, oh, cool. And he's like, he plays Sonic and stuff. And I was asking him, I was like, well, what kind of, because he had said he watches the Sierra Stream, so he sees all these old games being played. And I was like, well, what other YouTube channels you watch? And he's like, my life and gaming. And I was like, Daniel. I'm like, I'm friends with Corey. And it blew his mind. He was just like, what? I'm like, yeah, man. And he's like, Mr. No. And I was like, 

Speaker 2 (00:10:07):
As if you had said, I'm friends with Tom Hanks, 

Speaker 1 (00:10:10):
The dos coming in. It was bent. It was the same reaction. It was kind of amazing. That's an interesting thing because I think it brings something to a level in which that is doable. All you need is a camera. 

Speaker 2 (00:10:25):
Yeah. I mean, and a computer pre, presumably. Yeah. But 

Speaker 1 (00:10:28):
It's like you could do that if you wanted to. 

Speaker 2 (00:10:31):
Oh, it's so much more attainable. And I feel like it's also, it's affecting, I mean things like streaming services like Netflix as well, where I was watching the documentary series they just released, it's like The Toys that Made Us, have you 

Speaker 1 (00:10:46):
Watched that? Yeah. No, I haven't watched it yet, but God, is it good? The 

Speaker 2 (00:10:49):
He-Man episode Amazing is so good. I mean, the first one is Star Wars, which is really great because it's all about Kenner and so much about Cincinnati. So that's really fun just to be like, oh my gosh, it's Cincinnati. But the He-Man one is just such a crazy cast of characters, these super weird dudes who dream this insane universe up, and just the weirdness of it all. But at the same time, I was watching it and I was like, I really 

Speaker 1 (00:11:17):
Love 

Speaker 2 (00:11:18):
This, but this is straight up a YouTube documentary. 

Speaker 3 (00:11:21):
I would watch 

Speaker 2 (00:11:22):
Too. It had sort of gotten to this, I guess next level for me where it's like Netflix has become legitimate television, and their original programming feels like, oh, yeah, well, I watched this show and it's just like if I was watching something on HBO or something, and now it's the style of, it was very much like a documentary. I would watch my life and gaming or something. Totally on YouTube. So I feel like it's blurring in both too. It's affecting the other media too that's being produced. 

Speaker 1 (00:11:58):
I find myself, Emily and I watch more YouTube than we watch anything, 

Speaker 2 (00:12:04):
But there's so much really good 

Speaker 1 (00:12:05):
Stuff. It's so much good content on YouTube, and I'm just really locked in. We'll either watch something, there's a really good one of these guys, it was called Worth It. And what they do is they go and it's like they take some of their favorite food and they're like, okay, we're going to go and have tacos at three extremely different price points. 

Speaker 2 (00:12:24):
Okay, 

Speaker 1 (00:12:25):
Dollar 25, a taco, $22 a taco, and $300 a taco 

Speaker 2 (00:12:32):
That's 

Speaker 1 (00:12:32):
Just made out of caviar and truffles and 

Speaker 2 (00:12:35):
Stuff. 

Speaker 1 (00:12:36):
And they go and they eat it, and they just talk about it, and it's just beautifully done. It's super fast, has an amazing pace. And they really go into talking about the nuances of what they're doing and what they're tasting and what they're experiencing in terms of texture. But it's never having to run into a sommelier who's just like, it tastes like a hint of freshly open tennis ball can and Kroger gasoline. You know what I mean? You're just like, well, so it's never at that point, they're just like, whoa, this tastes like the ocean breeze. If you've ever been at the edge of an ocean, you inhale through your nose and it's the most concentrated light, airy sense of the ocean, you're like, whoa, that's awesome. But it's content like that. Of course, we watch a lot of travel, so it's a lot of experiences in other countries we really want to go visit. 

Speaker 2 (00:13:34):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:13:34):
It's like right before we went to New Orleans, we watched a bunch of videos on the restaurants, where to go, what it looks like. And it helped us plan an incredible trip within our four days there. 

Speaker 2 (00:13:46):
Yeah, no, that's a great idea. I don't think I've ever done that for travel. I've looked up stuff. I've totally used Instagram for that though, where that's 

Speaker 1 (00:13:52):
Really great too, 

Speaker 2 (00:13:53):
Where I'll just look up stuff and just start looking like, oh, this looks beautiful. Where's this? And then it's already geotag, so you can figure it out. I've done it while I'm in a location. I don't know. What do you want to go see? And then you look around and go like, oh, this looks cool. Let's go there. 

Speaker 1 (00:14:08):
Well, I remember looking at, I don't know if, I guess it was Facebook, and this is years and years ago, and an artist got really upset, and I just remember this phrase. They were just like, oh God, I'm so upset about what the internet has done to the art world. And I'm just like, no. I'm like, I hate what the art world is doing to the internet. It's like the Internet's great. It's, you know what I mean, in terms of imagery and it's sense of democracy. Are there great terrible things? Yes, of course. But it's not determined by this one particular aesthetic that everybody gets to see or not see or get promoted and not get promoted. It's just like you just kind of wander and one thing leads you to another. And I mean, that's how I stumbled on my life in gaming. I was just searching for stuff. 

Speaker 2 (00:15:03):
Yeah, yeah, you can totally. I mean, going down a YouTube hole as well, it's incredible. It was like you just do always feel like, oh my God, there's all this great stuff. Oh, the other day, actually, you were talking about travel stuff, and I just was watching this guy walk around Disney World. 

Speaker 1 (00:15:19):
It's awesome. 

Speaker 2 (00:15:20):
And I was totally into it. I'm just like, I adore theme parks. It's like you're the streaming thing of the kids feeling like they're playing a game through a streaming, watching a stream. It's like I'm essentially feeling like I'm at Disney World by watching this person. Totally. Because it was kind of great. He would, even though it was edited to a point, but he is literally walking around pointing out the pizza restaurant next to the 

Speaker 1 (00:15:49):
Beauty and the 

Speaker 2 (00:15:49):
Beast, or next to the new Pandora world pan. 

Speaker 1 (00:15:53):
Yes. 

Speaker 2 (00:15:55):
And then you able to have all these hot tips about, okay, now this one you can actually put in an order online early and pick it up 

Speaker 1 (00:16:02):
When you're 

Speaker 2 (00:16:03):
Ready, which is 

Speaker 1 (00:16:04):
A really cool 

Speaker 2 (00:16:04):
New feature. That's amazing. Because man, people who are into Disney, they are obsessed with Disney, the park experience. Have you been Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, 

Speaker 1 (00:16:18):
I've never been, I 

Speaker 2 (00:16:19):
Do love it. I know. I 

Speaker 1 (00:16:21):
Totally want to go. There's this incredible illustrator right now, it's at the Art Academy. Their name is Mall and Mall convinced Emily. They were just like, you've got to go. You've got to go. It cannot be messed. 

Speaker 2 (00:16:34):
We've gone a couple times and split it. And so we would go like, oh, let's go see this part of Universal, and we'll go see this part of the Harry Potter world, and then we'll also go see this part of Disney. And then we came back and we would do the same thing, but with a different Disney Park and a different universal park. That's amazing. But I'm always much more into, even though Universal has great rides and the Harry Potter stuff in particular, it's worth it. It is so good. It's good, is so amazing. I 

Speaker 1 (00:17:00):
Do that. But the 

Speaker 2 (00:17:02):
Disney experience is just like, it's that attention to detail that 

Speaker 1 (00:17:06):
You 

Speaker 2 (00:17:07):
Can't beat. And I'm real big stickler for that, where you know that somebody has taken the effort to make sure that you don't see that janky Warehouse building, that the haunted Mansion is actually in that you can only see the facade. 

Speaker 1 (00:17:21):
Just that, 

Speaker 2 (00:17:22):
Or I was looking up stuff online about how the Hollywood Tower of Terror from the Hollywood Studios part, you can actually see it from Epcot, but it blends from the back. The reason it's that pink color is that it blends in with Morocco. 

Speaker 1 (00:17:43):
That is 

Speaker 2 (00:17:44):
Amazing. And the architecture of it from the back 

Speaker 1 (00:17:47):
Is 

Speaker 2 (00:17:47):
Built to look like Morocco a part of this Moroccan skyline. 

Speaker 1 (00:17:52):
So it just disappears. And 

Speaker 2 (00:17:53):
It's literally, you can only see it from a few points in the park, but they were that worried about 

Speaker 1 (00:17:58):
Incredible, that building 

Speaker 2 (00:18:00):
Is part of the skyline. So we have to put it into this part too and make it work in both worlds. It's like 

Speaker 1 (00:18:07):
When you hear coders, when they're coding a game and they're trying to be like, well, I've just done everything so they can't get around that spot. It's like, 

Speaker 2 (00:18:15):
You 

Speaker 1 (00:18:15):
Can't break through that. 

Speaker 2 (00:18:17):
I'm really obsessed with just line cues, and that's some of my favorite parts of Disney stuff is like, what's going on in these lines where they're telling you parts of stories in those lines, or you're getting all this stuff. And actually, I mean, to go back to Harry Potter stuff, there is a ride where I was there at a weird off season, so you could literally just walk through lines, lines, and it was super fast. 

Speaker 1 (00:18:41):
When is off season? We 

Speaker 2 (00:18:43):
Were there, sorry to interrupt. When I was there, it was maybe mid-January. 

Speaker 1 (00:18:49):
Oh, nice. 

Speaker 2 (00:18:50):
Because it was basically right after everyone came on Christmas break. 

Speaker 1 (00:18:54):
Gotcha. 

Speaker 2 (00:18:54):
Okay. So it's like 

Speaker 1 (00:18:56):
You missed that crowd, 

Speaker 2 (00:18:57):
Right? Yeah. So it's up to probably right after January 1st, you probably got a few weeks maybe where people are still going to extend their vacation, but I remember it was probably right in the middle of January. And I think that period is pretty quiet there in general. It was actually a ton of Brazilians there because they just started their summer break. 

Speaker 1 (00:19:19):
Oh, that's amazing. 

Speaker 2 (00:19:21):
So it was like us and a ton of Brazilians just walking around Universal, 

Speaker 1 (00:19:26):
Getting into any ride you wanted, waiting five 

Speaker 2 (00:19:28):
Seconds. Yeah, totally. You just walk on getting 

Speaker 1 (00:19:29):
Pandora pizza whenever you wanted. Exactly. 

Speaker 2 (00:19:32):
But yeah, we actually, we didn't have to wait in the line at Harry Potter, but you would stop because there was so much entertainment in value in it that you want it to be like, wait, wait, no, I want to slow down and listen to Dumbledore here for a second. 

Speaker 1 (00:19:44):
Or then 

Speaker 2 (00:19:45):
You're in this room, and then Ron and Hermione appear on this balcony above you, and then they cast a spell and it starts snowing in the room, and it's like, 

Speaker 1 (00:19:55):
That is amazing. This is happening. So you're like, I want to just stand in line. They were 80 imaginary people in line, you said to take your time and walk. 

Speaker 2 (00:20:04):
Yeah, and there's just so much detail. We're in the defense against the dark arts classroom right now, and there's all these great weird animal skeletons 

Speaker 1 (00:20:13):
And stuff, and 

Speaker 2 (00:20:14):
It's just totally, totally up my alley where I want to be transported to fictional worlds. I mean, again, it's why we like video games. Oh, of 

Speaker 1 (00:20:24):
Course. 

Speaker 2 (00:20:25):
It's totally to be transported. 

Speaker 1 (00:20:27):
And that's one of the things too, is I think there's something interesting that happens with video games. There's something there in between that's active, but also simultaneously passive. 

Speaker 2 (00:20:37):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:20:37):
I think that provides something. It's like when we watch a movie, we're not interacting. We're not manipulating anything. There's that distance that art has that it's this thing on the wall. We have this distance, we understand it, and then we cerebral kind of thing. Relationship. But video games is something different. And I always think about, gosh darn it, who was it? What film critic? Was it Chicago very famous, 

Speaker 2 (00:21:03):
Cisco or Ebert? 

Speaker 1 (00:21:04):
I think it was Ebert. 

Speaker 2 (00:21:05):
Okay. 

Speaker 1 (00:21:08):
And he said a lot of people get mad about it, but he's like, video games aren't art. Oh, 

Speaker 2 (00:21:11):
Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely, 

Speaker 1 (00:21:12):
I was That's fair. That's fine. It doesn't have to be, it's its own thing. You know what I mean? We can understand that it is something new that we get to interact with in this way, but we also are simultaneously passively watching. 

Speaker 2 (00:21:26):
Yeah. Well, it's a super weird thing too, because I remember the hot burning questions of what 2008 is going down. 

Speaker 1 (00:21:36):
But 

Speaker 2 (00:21:37):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of can see both sides of it, because on one hand I'm like, well, yeah, it's also, it is not out. It's not. It comes out of this tradition as we're sitting here, we're sitting in a room full of dur prints, and it's not like somebody ever started at this point and moved through that history and got to video games. That's exactly right. It came out of its own world, really. I mean, it's like just somebody's like, Hey, we can do this thing. And I feel like video games should be a part of the arts as we see it with, but it's not a part necessarily of the visual art world. But then again, it, it's so weird because I don't know, maybe one day it could 

Speaker 1 (00:22:15):
Be right. Well, 

Speaker 2 (00:22:15):
It's like some of 

Speaker 1 (00:22:16):
The most breathtaking landscapes. It's like Emily is playing 

Speaker 2 (00:22:19):
Horizon 

Speaker 1 (00:22:20):
Zero dawn, and it is so remarkably beautiful, and it will just stop. And we're like, that sunset in the snow is just unbelievable. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:22:30):
Yeah. I mean, it's absolutely gorgeous. Or I'm always really interested in the objects and furniture and stuff 

Speaker 1 (00:22:39):
That's created 

Speaker 2 (00:22:39):
For those things. 

Speaker 1 (00:22:40):
And the Soul Series for me, and specifically, I don't know about you, but Bloodborne was where I feel like there was this particular refinement in terms of the Gothic, and that was just a period in which, for me, dialing into the object, the medieval aspect of the Soul Series. 

Speaker 2 (00:22:55):
But 

Speaker 1 (00:22:56):
There was something about bloodborne in particular about this kind of gothic sensibility, 

Speaker 2 (00:23:01):
Sort of like Victorian era. There you go. Right, right, right. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. And it's based in, it's sort of realistic in some ways. I mean, you could look at some of the art car furniture here that was made in Cincinnati in the 18 hundreds that looks really similar, that bed downstairs. It's like that crazy vaulted eyes. Oh, it's incredible canopy and stuff. It's really similar to that stuff. But then they've taken it and made it over the top crazy, where you look at the skyline and it's a million spires and stuff. 

Speaker 1 (00:23:35):
Totally. Well, it becomes like gey, you know what I mean? 

Speaker 2 (00:23:38):
But then at the same time, there's a point where in my neighborhood downtown where I can stand and I can see the spires of city hall, wise Temple and the church nearby, and it feels 

Speaker 1 (00:23:54):
Like that it looks like blood for, it does. And I'm just kind of amazing when you look at some of these dura prints, especially the ones in which there is figures, but they're also in a larger space that there's so much about rubble. You're seeing these kind of kingdoms fallen and right here. And that's the sensibility that I got where it really struck me was looking at night Death. And the Devil 

Speaker 2 (00:24:19):
Is 

Speaker 1 (00:24:19):
That kingdom that just built on that hill. And it's so much about proximity and distance, and you can look at a ton of these, 

Speaker 2 (00:24:28):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:24:28):
There's always this distance, and it's like the interiors not so much, but it's when you get those spaces where everything's out there, and I know there's a bunch of Madonna and child and it's just this incredible where they're just sitting on a pile of a fallen wall, and she's sitting there and she has keys, and I think it's that one right over there on this green wall. It's like you could see her, the one on the very end on the left, and she has keys just dangling here, and then this kingdom that's been in rubble. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:25:04):
I was noticing the weird kind of decay of the worlds in these as well. And when you were kind brought it up as relationship to sort of the Soul series of video games, maybe we have done a very bad job of actually explaining to a person who has never played a video game, what we're talking about in that way. But basically there's a series of video games that take place in, most of them are in sort of a medieval fantasy world, medieval inspired, but we should say they're also developed in Japan. So they've always kind of got this really interesting mix of medieval European influence mixed with Japanese ideas and aesthetics, and they're just really fascinating. But most of this world that they exist in has just totally gone to pot. 

Speaker 1 (00:25:52):
I mean, it is just, it's kind of holding on by the seams, 

Speaker 1 (00:25:57):
And it's very much what you see kind of illustrated in these dura prints in a way, is that this kind of old ideal just slowly either breaking apart or being held together by the seams and with the Dark Souls games, that's kind of incredible for anybody that whatever, even just if you listening to it, you haven't seen, just look it up on YouTube. And there's a guy, what's Vidya? He does those incredible stories and kind of elaborates on the narratives, and I think he lends a lot to it that could also be lent to some of this in terms of looking at symbolism. And 

Speaker 2 (00:26:34):
He has the most beautiful voice too, the most beautiful voice in the world, the series he'd started that I first saw work called Prepare to Cry, prepare to Cry instead of Prepare to Die. But 

Speaker 4 (00:26:45):
He's a sort of soft British voice. He's so 

Speaker 2 (00:26:49):
Gentle. Oh my God, he's amazing. But yeah, when you're also just looking at where still this night Death in the Devil print that is, I do feel like this is the most souly of the 

Speaker 1 (00:27:01):
Completely 

Speaker 2 (00:27:02):
I took, you sent me this in a text and you were like, let's talk about this. And I was like, oh my God, you're dead on. And I walked around, I was like, is there anything better? And I was like, no, this is totally, this is the best one. So good. But it's also the idea of daunting challenge. 

Speaker 1 (00:27:20):
Oh, completely. It's at the road. Yeah. It's constantly stabbing off, challenge met from foot to head. It's 

Speaker 2 (00:27:30):
Like 

Speaker 1 (00:27:31):
There are kind of these perils and detritus of things gone awry. 

Speaker 2 (00:27:39):
So chockfull of detail too. It 

Speaker 1 (00:27:40):
Really is. And it's interesting because when you made that relationship between how Dark Souls operates with in terms of its environment, being heavily inspired by what we understand as Western kind, gothic and medieval 

Speaker 2 (00:27:55):
Kind 

Speaker 1 (00:27:55):
Of tradition, and that I feel like Miyazaki, the animator, the animator filmmaker, does the same thing when you look at some of those, unless you go with something incredibly traditional like Princess Manchi, but if you look at Kiki's delivery service or they're based in these villages that look, so what we romantically think of as that's where you do 

Speaker 2 (00:28:18):
The 

Speaker 1 (00:28:18):
Uric in Switzerland. 

Speaker 2 (00:28:20):
Yeah, totally. 

Speaker 1 (00:28:21):
And it's incredible, and I feel like I forget his first name, and it's not the same person, but Miyazaki who directs 

Speaker 2 (00:28:28):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:28:28):
Creates the Dark Soul Series games has that same sensibility. And I always found that incredibly interesting that it's through this lens that kind of gets pressurized and that the narrative world in this kind of object ontological kind of way, the narrative world is only understood by the player through your understanding of what is written about the random objects you 

Speaker 2 (00:28:57):
Find in the game. 

Speaker 1 (00:28:58):
And then you start to put together the puzzles of this kind of incredible slightly dystopic a narrative. 

Speaker 2 (00:29:10):
Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, I just also as character design there also this death and devil back there. 

Speaker 1 (00:29:18):
Incredible. I mean, that level of imagination has 

Speaker 2 (00:29:22):
Totally super weird. 

Speaker 1 (00:29:26):
Who's that last Lord? That's not the last, but it's one of the lords of Dark Souls three when you're down in the dungeon, and it's just him, and he's a huge skeleton wearing a crown, and he just keeps grabbing at you. 

Speaker 2 (00:29:38):
I haven't played it. 

Speaker 1 (00:29:39):
You haven't 

Speaker 2 (00:29:39):
Played Dark Souls three? No, I haven't it yet. Oh my gosh. 

Speaker 1 (00:29:42):
Okay. Well, I'm going to buy you Dark Sol Street, the part, so it looks like one of those bosses and then this, I mean, it just could easily be something from that series Death and the Devil both Look, especially 

Speaker 2 (00:29:55):
The weirdness of the one Horn. 

Speaker 1 (00:29:57):
Yeah. It's this asymmetry. That's 

Speaker 5 (00:30:00):
So weird. 

Speaker 2 (00:30:01):
I mean, I guess it's maybe supposed to be right out the back of the middle, but it's just sort of something. Oh, 

Speaker 1 (00:30:05):
But it reads to the side, though. 

Speaker 2 (00:30:06):
Yeah. It somehow defies, and maybe it was more common in the Renaissance of maybe this was probably a more common representation of the devil, but just having that one big horn at the back of his head is so weird, and 

Speaker 1 (00:30:20):
He kind of looks like Gannon. 

Speaker 2 (00:30:22):
That's also true 

Speaker 1 (00:30:23):
From sda. Yeah, but it's the distance in that kingdom that is just so pronounced to me that proximity and space and even the look of the night, this kind of sense of tenacity and grit, it's just incredible. I just couldn't believe when, like I said, Sally, my mother-in-law pointed to this, and instantly I was just like, oh man, 

Speaker 2 (00:30:52):
This 

Speaker 1 (00:30:52):
Is so dark Souls. Well, 

Speaker 2 (00:30:55):
That distant kingdom that you're pointing at that's used a lot in video games, I feel like too, as the thing that kind of pulls you forward. 

Speaker 1 (00:31:04):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:31:05):
You have that really, I would say especially well-designed video games use that as, it's like the carrot on the stick. You see the tower off in the distance and you want to go there. Totally. It's true. So that's exactly, it has this little teaser for you. You want to go explore this world too, 

Speaker 1 (00:31:28):
And then death, just holding the hourglass. I mean, just the traditional symbols and signs that we see. 

Speaker 2 (00:31:33):
Yeah, I love all the snakes. The snakes coming around. Oh my God, 

Speaker 1 (00:31:37):
It's absolutely beautiful. 

Speaker 2 (00:31:39):
Yeah, there's something, when you were pointing, we were talking about the, there's another print in here around the corner. I think that also, it's just, it makes me think of some of the villages and bloodborne that's just like 

Speaker 1 (00:31:51):
Where, yes, I know which one you're talking about. 

Speaker 2 (00:31:53):
Just all there's boards missing on the roofs and stuff, and you're just like, 

Speaker 1 (00:31:59):
Yeah. I mean that's kind of incredible, is that I think a whole kind of paper could be written just on the state of the surrounding villages in the Dura Prince, the interiors, A lot of the St. Jerome interiors are, well, except for this one. Of course, I turned to my right and he's like, this building is seemingly kind of fallen around him. 

Speaker 2 (00:32:27):
But that's interesting that we're noticing the interiors always seem a little more put together than the exteriors. It's like this sort of idea of the world around you is in disrepair. Totally. The world out there is a kind of scary place. 

Speaker 1 (00:32:43):
And this one of Melancholia is unbelievable. It's one of the faces, I feel like, that a lot of his men have a lot of distinct faces, but his women have very generic faces. But this one for Melancholia, look at that. 

Speaker 2 (00:33:01):
It 

Speaker 1 (00:33:01):
Is just so incredibly unique, particular that stare. It's just one of the most striking to me that I just, 

Speaker 2 (00:33:09):
It's super, yeah, it's super expressive. Then look at 

Speaker 1 (00:33:11):
The keys. Oh 

Speaker 2 (00:33:13):
Yeah, it was Keys. That is such a 

Speaker 1 (00:33:15):
Video 

Speaker 2 (00:33:15):
Game thing. No, it's incredible. 

Speaker 1 (00:33:18):
It's like keys again, ladder, right? 

Speaker 2 (00:33:21):
I mean, there are so 

Speaker 1 (00:33:21):
Many things put in place. There's this tradition of signs and symbols that seem to carry over. So it's not 

Speaker 2 (00:33:27):
Necessarily 

Speaker 1 (00:33:28):
That video games, like you said, and which is very smart. And it didn't come out of this tradition of how painters, as we know historically, artist, sculptors, whatever 

Speaker 2 (00:33:39):
Come 

Speaker 1 (00:33:39):
Out of this kind of lineage of looking at something and then moving it forward that it had the ability to how it was born and later developed. Its kind of nuance and narrative and storytelling and the way and kind of playability and approach, and that it had the ability to just go in and take a couple of things from art and from film and from books. I think about Sylvania, it's all of those Victorian monsters just in one game, and it's kind of amazing. 

Speaker 2 (00:34:17):
But just now I'm thinking too, one of the things that I love about, and it may be a connection again, I make between video games and art. And one of the things that a lot of, why am I blinking Valve? 

Speaker 1 (00:34:30):
Oh, a 

Speaker 2 (00:34:30):
Lot of valve, very much. They started putting audio commentary tracks in their games. And one of the things I learned from that that was really fascinating to me was how much, and it seems obvious, but how much time and effort they put into thinking about how to direct you the player. It's incredible. The viewer will say for an artist, but it's about making you feel almost like you're making choices that you're not really making. 

Speaker 2 (00:35:00):
And it's like, okay, so we kind of learn that people will go to the brightest spot. So if we need somebody to go somewhere, we just put a light there and people will always go there. And then we wanted people to make sure they were watching this sort of thing that's happening at this particular moment. So we had to kind of put this barrier here to keep them from going any further, even though they can block, they can totally go over this, but they won't until we found, until this thing ends. And so there's just something about that that I actually think, I love those moments where I love to be manipulated 

Speaker 1 (00:35:35):
Like that. Totally. And I think 

Speaker 2 (00:35:39):
Something, I don't know if I've said this before in the show, but people, I think a lot of the idea 

Speaker 1 (00:35:44):
Of 

Speaker 2 (00:35:44):
Art making, and I'm guessing maybe some of your high school students have this 

Speaker 1 (00:35:49):
Idea, 

Speaker 2 (00:35:49):
Is that you are feeling really depressed. So you go grab a piece of paper and you just let all that depression out of you and on the paper is a pure record of depression. And then the viewer will look at 

Speaker 6 (00:36:04):
It and they will feel very 

Speaker 2 (00:36:04):
Depressed. But 

Speaker 1 (00:36:06):
The 

Speaker 2 (00:36:07):
Actual reality of the situation is that usually doesn't work. I mean, you might get lucky, but more often it's like the artist has figured out how to make you feel sad by arranging things on a page in the right way, in the right way. 

Speaker 1 (00:36:22):
Totally. It's just composition. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:24):
And so that's actually where they have the similarity of they are actually very directed experiences, whether you think about them or not. And so it's like dur knows he wants us to notice these certain things in this particular order and to pick up on these things. Totally. And how these things are supporting each other in this world. And so, I don't know. It's a part of artistry of video games that I don't think a lot of people probably consider. Is that that way you're being played with? Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:36:52):
No, no. And composition and leading you. I mean, those are traditional tools, and it's like we know for the students there, we were learning a lot about that shift from the Italian Renaissance and the beginnings of the Baroque because we were talking about the Protestant 

Speaker 2 (00:37:04):
Reformation 

Speaker 1 (00:37:06):
And one of the key ways where you were talking about that idea of moving around and it's the 10 Nacu Guro used in Caravaggio. I'd have the students, we'd put up something even as simple as David and Goliath. It's the one where David's holding the knife and Goliath's head, he's holding it and is capitated, and he's holding it in the bottom lefthand corner of the paint or our bottom right hand corner of the painting. And I always tell the students to squint their eyes to eliminate that kind of peripheral glow so they can really see that instead of paying to that beautiful attention of how Caravaggio rendered the shadow of, in David's right shoulder, how it emerges out of the light as you move to the left. But it's one of those things where it's having them squint their eyes and then this point to the three things that Caravaggio wants us to see. And they're just like head sword, David's face, and it's just like, boom, boom, boom. You're like, perfect. There you go. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:37:58):
Because just the light again, that's 

Speaker 1 (00:38:00):
It. It's just the use of light. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:01):
Yeah. Yeah. One of the biggest tricks in the book is just like, no, it totally is how to use light to make, and you can, even from this distance, I'm doing it 

Speaker 1 (00:38:12):
Here. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:13):
And it's like first it's really the night. Night and death, 

Speaker 1 (00:38:16):
Actually. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:17):
Exactly. It's interesting because the devil kind in the horse, and then the devil actually is sort of a little bit secondary. 

Speaker 1 (00:38:23):
You 

Speaker 2 (00:38:24):
Come to him later, actually. But 

Speaker 1 (00:38:25):
Even when you look at the title that it's like Night Death. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:29):
You go 

Speaker 1 (00:38:29):
In that order in a weird way, 

Speaker 2 (00:38:31):
And then you get to that castle in the background last almost because it's like that's the thing we're getting to as well. Oh, 

Speaker 1 (00:38:36):
Totally. 

Speaker 2 (00:38:37):
It's even got a little narrative, 

Speaker 1 (00:38:38):
A sense of distance. It's kind of amazing. Have you ever watched, there's a beautiful video, and if anybody who's listening would be interested in watching this on YouTube, and I think you just basically search Mia Moto explaining the design of Super Mario Brothers. And it's kind of genius. Cause when you play through it, you're like, I can't believe in the first two seconds. I am told just by my sheer curiosity of how to play this game. And you're just like, there are no instructions. You're just like, I jump on those and I can get on here. And then from there, it's up to you to play with those tools because 

Speaker 2 (00:39:16):
It's like your first obstacle. You jump over a pipe, you have to jump over a pipe or you can't go any further. And then isn't there a brick place that you kind of have to 

Speaker 1 (00:39:26):
Hit? You have to hit it. Yes. You have to hit it to go to the bigger pipe. 

Speaker 2 (00:39:30):
So you learn, oh, if I hit this, it's incredible. Stuff comes out. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:39:34):
It's so brilliant that construction. It's that same thing, that planning of, but dealing with the physics and the way the game plays, and I feel like there are things, well, I guess there is the tutorial in Dark Souls where they're swing or No, you have to read the messages on the ground. That's 

Speaker 2 (00:39:53):
Right. So you can 

Speaker 1 (00:39:53):
Skip them if you wanted 

Speaker 2 (00:39:55):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:39:55):
Just start kind of going at it. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:39:57):
But they're helpful. 

Speaker 1 (00:39:58):
Yeah. No, it's true. 

Speaker 2 (00:40:01):
But so much of it. Yeah, I mean, once you get the basic mechanics of the game down with, okay, these are the buttons I touch to make the things happen, then there are so much things that are just taught to you by experience and trial and error basically, and going, oh, okay. Well, and you will start to realize, especially if you play, I've gone back and we will replay a game and you'll realize like, oh, those guys were there to teach me that 

Speaker 1 (00:40:30):
Originally. 

Speaker 2 (00:40:30):
They were actually hard to me. And now I realize, oh, they're just there just to, they're not actually any challenge to them. They're just there to basically teach me a lesson about something and you kind of start to realize what those lessons are being taught to you. 

Speaker 1 (00:40:45):
Oh, totally. No, exactly. Right. I mean, that's kind of incredible about, with Dark Souls being that major topic. I mean, it is kind of funny, and I know that might seem annoying for people who have never played it, but it's kind of amazing because there are a couple of people like major developers, and when they get together, they're just like, listen, when we get into a discussion, our discussion winds up being about Dark Souls because it's just one of those games that it is just literally ensnares you in terms of the depth of the gameplay, the realization of the space around you. It's physics, just the entire universe, and then the weird narrative that slowly begins to reveal itself, but never 

Speaker 2 (00:41:36):
Have 

Speaker 1 (00:41:37):
A resolution. 

Speaker 2 (00:41:38):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:41:39):
Well, 

Speaker 2 (00:41:39):
And that's the other thing too. I think that as we talk about games as an art form and how they, I don't know, try to it, it's a thing that I feel like it's a relatively new medium, very much. And so it's sort of interesting to see them try to find their, it's like people are still discovering the ways to do it. And so there are a lot of games where the goal is almost to imitate a movie or imitate Hollywood. And it's like I'm finding myself having a harder and harder time getting into that 

Speaker 1 (00:42:11):
Uncharted, do you feel like does that a little bit 

Speaker 2 (00:42:13):
Uncharted, does that, and I feel like for the most part, I can deal with it in Uncharted because they're pretty good at keeping the action running when it doesn't work. Actually, another game from the same studio, the Last of us, I feel is not as successful. I agree. And when it came out, I feel like people adored this game, but I feel like it's not as successful because it constantly kills you. 

Speaker 2 (00:42:41):
And so you actually, when you have a game that has to have that kind of movie pacing, it kind of has to be sort of easy because if you die constantly, it's sort of stopping the momentum of this drama that they're building and this sort of feeling of action. So when that game works really well, it's when you feel like you're in charge of everything, but you're kind of really not. That's actually when it's working the best. But when all of a sudden something stops to act out a scene and stuff, it's a little bit, it's always a little clunky still in video games. Whereas what's so amazing about the Soul Series is that they've sort of figured out how to just give you just enough of that to be intriguing, 

Speaker 1 (00:43:29):
Just enough, 

Speaker 2 (00:43:30):
But not to wear you out either. 

Speaker 1 (00:43:31):
Yeah, yeah. No, it's totally true. And that's the thing I think, and any good art that I'm interested in, in engaging with and spending time with, is that nothing is given to you immediately. Not everything is given to you immediately, and it's just keeps you there and allows you, what I kind of conceptualize is trying to always communicate to students as being this space that allows you in, that acknowledges its audience, is understanding that once this thing is public, it's no longer just mine or the created. And we get to have that experience with it. And going back when you mentioned that about Valve, there's this incredible series called Three's Coming, man, one day, one Day in Half-Life two, there was this great thing, and I think you and I were talking about it, of how wonderful that feels to play that game, it seems like. And it's once again, that trick. It seems like an open world game, but it is extremely not. You feel like you're making these choices, I'm going to go down this way, and it's like something made you go down that 

Speaker 2 (00:44:42):
Way. Yeah, no, I mean, I remember playing Half-Life two for the first time, and you 

Speaker 1 (00:44:46):
Really early in the game, 

Speaker 2 (00:44:47):
You go out into this town square and you feel like it's a huge world. 

Speaker 1 (00:44:51):
Oh, it's huge. I 

Speaker 2 (00:44:52):
Mean, 

Speaker 1 (00:44:52):
Walk into any building, 

Speaker 2 (00:44:54):
And in my memory of it, especially the first time I played it, I feel like I was just doing what I wanted to 

Speaker 1 (00:45:00):
Do. Same. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:02):
But I went exactly where they wanted me to go. And then if you go in and you try to really poke around, you won't be able 

Speaker 1 (00:45:09):
To go 

Speaker 2 (00:45:10):
Anywhere. You're not allowed to go. And you realize it's not actually as big as it looks, but it's like they've done such a good job at tricking you. Well, it's like the Disney 

Speaker 1 (00:45:18):
World thing. I mean, they painted the right side 

Speaker 2 (00:45:20):
Of 

Speaker 1 (00:45:20):
World the pink, so it looks like Morocco, and 

Speaker 2 (00:45:22):
It's totally true. It's 

Speaker 1 (00:45:23):
Incredible. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:24):
It's exactly the Disney World 

Speaker 1 (00:45:25):
Masterful at that, and I just always just laugh. I just love that one scene from Halflife two when you first get in, and there's the one guard there, and he acts that can, he's pick that up 

Speaker 2 (00:45:38):
And you go to 

Speaker 1 (00:45:39):
Pick it up, and if you don't, he hits you. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:41):
Yeah, that's right. He just 

Speaker 1 (00:45:42):
Throws that can at your feet, and he's like, pick that 

Speaker 2 (00:45:44):
Up. Makes you pick up garbage. 

Speaker 1 (00:45:46):
Yeah, yeah. It forces you to, because you get a giant gun with him, and you're just like, oh man, this place is the worst. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:53):
I know. But it's such a great little storytelling way of communicating what this world is about. It's oppressive. 

Speaker 1 (00:46:02):
You 

Speaker 2 (00:46:03):
Get that really quickly, like, oh, this is an oppressive terrible place. I do not want to be here. 

Speaker 1 (00:46:06):
Yeah, you're in a random building in this security guard just threw trash at you and told you to pick it up. You're just like, man, if it's bad here, it's like bad. It's worse somewhere else. This is pretty terrible. And it's just like the idea too, what was it? It's that same room where you walk around and you get access to that building, and there's that terrifying moment where you see through the window of that door, do you remember this? And you go to look in and that guard looks at you and then boom shuts the thing, and you're just like, 

Speaker 2 (00:46:34):
I 

Speaker 1 (00:46:34):
Just remember my stomach dropping. I was just like, oh God. 

Speaker 2 (00:46:38):
Yeah, you're just like, something very bad is happening behind that tunnel. Something horrible is going to happen to that person. Oh my gosh. I forgot about that. But yeah, that is horrible. Oh, 

Speaker 1 (00:46:46):
So yeah, I mean, it's like cringe. I just remember just sitting there. Oh boy, 

Speaker 2 (00:46:51):
You brought up Uncharted a second ago. And one thing actually, I remember actually telling one of our curators about here because I was so fascinated though, is the weird menus of just decorative arts objects, basically. It's incredible. 

Speaker 1 (00:47:05):
Oh my gosh. It's amazing. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:07):
As you're going through this world, you'll find treasures, and then 

Speaker 1 (00:47:11):
You 

Speaker 2 (00:47:11):
Can access these treasures from a map, and literally all you can do is just look at them and turn them around. But it's sort of amazing because somebody's put all this effort into rendering this a jade elephant or some 

Speaker 1 (00:47:23):
Sort of weird little 

Speaker 2 (00:47:24):
Knickknack or something that has historical significance. And even just the world, as I was walking around, I was in Uncharted four, I was creeping around an old 

Speaker 1 (00:47:36):
Mansion 

Speaker 2 (00:47:38):
Owned by actually probably an old curator or 

Speaker 1 (00:47:40):
Something, 

Speaker 2 (00:47:41):
And I was walking through, I was like, oh, that's like an Amarna period Egyptian vase. 

Speaker 1 (00:47:47):
That specific, yeah. Yeah. You're like, oh, that's a wedgewood vase. It's just stuff you're just like, ah, this is unbelievable. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:55):
Yeah. So it's just crazy how much effort was put into making these little things that just kind of populate a world and are meant to be sort of ignored for the most part. But then that also brings up my other biggest pet peeve about video games is I feel like I have yet to play a video game where there are no paintings repeated. 

Speaker 1 (00:48:14):
I agree. Yeah, no, it's true. 

Speaker 2 (00:48:16):
Doesn't that drive 

Speaker 1 (00:48:16):
You crazy? Yeah, it does. It's crazy. 

Speaker 2 (00:48:18):
I've never played a game. I feel like There was one I was playing recently and I thought that I was going to come close, and then I was like, Nope, there's, there 

Speaker 1 (00:48:26):
It is. 

Speaker 2 (00:48:26):
There's the same 

Speaker 1 (00:48:27):
One. There's a different, 

Speaker 2 (00:48:27):
And actually, I was talking about Last Of Us. I remember there's a place, and it made me so mad because I could literally be in the same location and see the same painting two times in the same spot. And I was like, that is the ultimate it's come on. Oh, no, you can't at least put it down the hall. 

Speaker 1 (00:48:45):
Yeah, exactly. Separate it a little bit. 

Speaker 2 (00:48:47):
But that one was really frustrating for me because they were based on real paintings too. So I was like, I would of course, remember when I saw this painting that's supposed to be Paul Revere or whatever. You're just like, oh, well, this is a famous painting. I remember this. You're not going to forget it. And then to see it multiple times and a supposed museum, you're like, well, I don't think they would. They have four or five copies on view. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:15):
Bert copied it and put it over just in case the other one got ruined. Need a backup up just 

Speaker 2 (00:49:21):
Drives me crazy. No, 

Speaker 1 (00:49:22):
Totally. Have you ever, I know this going to sound weird, and it's not that it's real paintings, but were there repeats in Luigi's Mansion? The first day I thought of was some paintings of people in Luigi's Mansion. I think you can collect them and you open your own gallery. I don't think there are any repeats of any. There probably aren't. 

Speaker 2 (00:49:42):
That's true. That would probably be a very Nintendo thing too, 

Speaker 1 (00:49:44):
To make sure it's that meticulous. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:49:46):
Yeah, that's true. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:47):
Making sure they pay attention to little things like that because they have that type of, I don't know. I mean, they just have that type of aesthetic or something, I don't know. Not aesthetic, but they just 

Speaker 2 (00:49:57):
A sensibility of sensibility. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:59):
It's 

Speaker 2 (00:49:59):
Actually Nintendo and Disney are really similar in that way of there's that definite putting out the most polished product they can possibly do, and understanding that their name is sort of synonymous with a certain sort of quality that if something gets out there that is not up to snuff, it is seen as the most damaging thing to them. But yeah, that also reminded me when you're talking about collecting paintings too, and related to this show is in Assassin's Creed too. I was about ready to bring up now. It's incredible. One my favorite things was collecting art. It's incredible. And then I would go into my villa 

Speaker 1 (00:50:37):
And you just hang it up in your alza and you're like, well, it's funny because we were in New Orleans and we went to the New Orleans Museum of Art, and we were up on the second floor. It's a small, incredible museum, incredible collection. Their collection of Dutch painting is, it's so good. 

Speaker 1 (00:51:00):
But we were up on the second floor, and it's kind of a little balcony that kind of circles around and that kind of main little entrance or main area. And I looked over and at each kind of point, there's this kind of rhythm pedestal and marble busts of a person. And I looked over at Emily and I was like, this is kind of Etsy's pleasure. If we went in that door, that's like the map room where uncle, what's his name is sitting in there and waxing philosophical and how we should prepare the village for war. 

Speaker 2 (00:51:41):
But I mean, yeah, it's totally like I was in Rome and I totally couldn't stop thinking about Assassin's Creed Brotherhood or whatever, whichever one takes place in Rome. And occasionally we would be trying to find our way around, and I'd be like, well, I'm pretty sure the coliseum's down that way because I kind of remembered. I'm like, let's see. I mean, if we're at the Circus Maximus, the Coliseum should be roughly over here If 

Speaker 1 (00:52:07):
We scale this wall. I 

Speaker 2 (00:52:08):
Know there's probably some old aqueducts we can climb over here. 

Speaker 1 (00:52:12):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:52:12):
We'll get over there. Really, it's quite fast. Just Okay, just watch out. There's going to be a lot of guards on these roofs. They're going to get very mad at you, 

Speaker 1 (00:52:19):
But I'm sure there's a wagon filled with hay that we can jump into 

Speaker 2 (00:52:23):
For safety. We'll be fine. 

Speaker 1 (00:52:25):
Just hide and just random. 

Speaker 2 (00:52:28):
We'll be fine. That's how we got around Rome, just running on rooftops and jumping into hay. It's 

Speaker 1 (00:52:33):
Fine. 

Speaker 2 (00:52:33):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:52:34):
It's a good old time. And 

Speaker 2 (00:52:36):
I remember so much of, I don't know. I don't feel too guilty of this. I think people have been doing this for years of, you probably do the same thing of No, no, no. It's not going to be like that bad, but just probably people have experienced life through art in other ways where you go like, oh my God, this is beautiful. It's like a painting, right? 

Speaker 1 (00:52:55):
Oh yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:52:56):
So it's like I remember being camping or something and we would be like, oh my God, these woods are beautiful. It's like shadow of the 

Speaker 1 (00:53:01):
Closet. Yeah, no, it's true. And I mean, no, we have those moments too, and it's kind of vice versa, and that's what makes, I think some of that relationship with video games in the surrounding area, especially landscape, it's so poignant and so clear to me when there's a relationship 

Speaker 2 (00:53:24):
There. 

Speaker 1 (00:53:25):
And even when I'm playing Breath of the Wild or I'm playing whatever, and I'll see something, and it is, I mean, it has that feeling because it is, it's really actually, once again, that kind of weird position between being active and being passive. It kind of spins everything in a weird way because you're interacting with it actively, but you're also watching it passively that it starts in certain synapses. It's a feeling. I remember being there, and it's not just visually, it's like this, because most of my remarks will be like, this feels like this feels uncharted, or This feels like Dark Souls. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:54:07):
No, totally. I mean, and something as we're talking about a connection with landscape painting, I think it's important to also remember that the other thing about the vast majority of landscape paintings that, I mean, at least in art history, 

Speaker 1 (00:54:23):
Are 

Speaker 2 (00:54:23):
Kind of totally constructed realities too, 

Speaker 1 (00:54:26):
Too Well, looking 

Speaker 2 (00:54:27):
Like the Barbon 

Speaker 1 (00:54:27):
Painters mean, 

Speaker 2 (00:54:28):
Well, that's actually the beginning of where people start saying, no, no, we're going to actually look at this stuff, look at stuff, and actually kind of try to at least go out, make some sketches, and try to imitate reality best we can. But before that, it's like you're looking at, well, 

Speaker 1 (00:54:42):
This tree 

Speaker 2 (00:54:43):
Over here was probably over there and this waterfall wasn't there at all. And you go out and you sketch a few things, and then you go back, especially when people are not painting in nature at all, that those landscapes tend to be 

Speaker 1 (00:54:58):
Complete 

Speaker 2 (00:54:59):
Constructs or 

Speaker 1 (00:55:00):
At 

Speaker 2 (00:55:00):
Least manipulations of reality. So 

Speaker 1 (00:55:05):
It's like 

Speaker 2 (00:55:06):
There's a reason when we look at a video game, it's like, 

Speaker 1 (00:55:08):
Yeah, this feels kind of 

Speaker 2 (00:55:10):
Like a painted landscape. It's like, because most painted landscapes are about as fanciful as Skyrim. Totally, 

Speaker 1 (00:55:16):
Totally. No, that's totally true. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:18):
They're just as sort of imagined, and it's like why it's hard to take a picture of the Matterhorn or whatever. That's ever going to look quite as nice, of course, as a painting, because you can, I actually remember doing this trying to find a shot of, I think it was of the Matterhorn from some romantic painting that I was looking at. And you realize when you looked at it like, oh yeah, all these trees around it, if you were at this exact vantage point, would be 

Speaker 1 (00:55:45):
A lot bigger. So 

Speaker 2 (00:55:46):
It would make the mountain look a lot smaller. And so everything's been kind of adjusted to make this mountain the most immense, in the most beautiful and the most amazing that it could possibly be. 

Speaker 1 (00:55:57):
Yeah. Once again, it's painting the back of the sign pink, 

Speaker 2 (00:56:01):
Right? Yeah. It's that same 

Speaker 1 (00:56:02):
Thing about how do we arrange space in a way that kind of somehow adjust or curate in the proximity of everything to heighten 

Speaker 2 (00:56:14):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:56:14):
Direct and experience and No, it's incredible. I'm really excited to see what the future has to hold in terms of video games and in terms of art. I mean, if there's a relationship more so video games, 

Speaker 2 (00:56:29):
But I think it was pretty clear what you're more excited about. 

Speaker 1 (00:56:32):
More so video games. But no, I've been trying to write this book on the experience of playing video games and trying to, not really trying to elevate it to anything bigger than, I don't know. I'm not trying to do that weird trick to it, but I'm just trying to write from a standpoint of considering it through my experience. And it's been really interesting 

Speaker 1 (00:56:53):
So far. And the only point that I could feel like coming out of it, we're going to go to Japan in the summer and I want to try to set up doing some interviews with people, and I'm hoping to get the backing of this foundation that'll make it a little more legitimize where I can get in and actually have these conversations. And it would be interesting to get a firsthand experience of talking to some of these developers who have been in the business and ask them those questions about what was the inspiration, what kind of took them to this place. But I also want to set up some kind of, because I've been collecting and repairing a lot of retro consoles, a lot of things that we're just kind of, so I've got like 39 consoles now. I know it's just ridiculous. But I want to share it and I want to set up some kind of research lab or PlayStation where it's like people get to experience these things and whatever. Look at the kind of history throughout, 

Speaker 2 (00:57:56):
Essentially a video game museum. 

Speaker 1 (00:57:57):
A video game museum, essentially. Right, right, right. And I don't know, I mean, that's kind of where it's gone so far. But I'm also making these weird objects that out of paper mache and temper paint that are objects that are typically used to help address video quality. 

Speaker 2 (00:58:19):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:58:20):
I've made R C A cables out of paper mache, little speakers, video game cases. We've got Streets of Rage, two video game cases that's on the floor. Weird adapters that just look like these little black minimalist objects, but it's like for these weird European cables, 

Speaker 2 (00:58:45):
Scar 

Speaker 1 (00:58:45):
Cable, and H D M I ports and they're just super weird. So all of that kind of in collaborate. So all those things have been swimming around in a weird way. 

Speaker 2 (00:58:58):
Well, thank you, Joey. 

Speaker 1 (00:58:59):
Oh, thank 

Speaker 2 (00:59:00):
You, Russell. I think we are probably going to get kicked out soon. Oh 

Speaker 1 (00:59:04):
Yeah. We've really done it. A pleasure though, man. I know it's something that you share excitement about as well as being a wonderful artist yourself. And I was glad to spend the 

Speaker 2 (00:59:14):
Time. Yeah. I'm always so excited to talk about video games. 

Speaker 1 (00:59:17):
Yes, indeed. 

Speaker 2 (00:59:18):
Indeed. You didn't have to twist my arm too much. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are Ana England Kinship William Ridge, more sweetly play the dance. And if you want to go see the pieces that Joey and I discussed today, go see Alrich Durr, the Age of Reformation and Renaissance. You'll want to go soon because it closes after February 11th. If you're looking for a new way to experience the museum, check out our sketching tour. On February 10th, one of our docents will take you on a casual guided tour where you can sketch what you see. This month's topic is love stories. All materials are provided, and this program is also free. 

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. And while you're there, check out images of the work we discussed today. Go to events and programs and then scroll down to Art Palace podcast. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and even join our Art Palace Facebook group. I'll be sharing links to the video games we discussed in this episode on the Facebook group, so it's a great place to learn more. Our theme song is Efron Al by Backal. And as always, please rate and review us on iTunes or maybe you use a different player that also lets you rate stuff. Just rate us everywhere. Okay. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.