Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): Looking at some work that I maybe have seen before and hadn't paid that much attention to or analyzed, and then I am looking at it and suddenly I become interested in it. I'm 38 and I become interested in a painting that I've seen many times, but never paid attention to, and I love that. Speaker 1 (00:27): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is artist Matt Kors, exhibitions coordinator and adjunct professor at the Art Academy of Cincinnati. So I started watching Aloha State the other day. Oh, really? Terrace House, Aloha State, I should say. Excellent. So far I've liked the differences in Aloha State. I like that it has its own kind of identity, at least in the first bit. I've enjoyed it. I don't know. It is different because the people are younger, I've noticed, I feel like, and that can be both annoying in some of them case and some of them adorable. Speaker 2 (01:25): Right, right. Yeah. My wife and I have a mixed, so my wife is a Japanese, and we have kind of a mixed reaction to season two, Aloha State as it's known. Yes. I feel like, and I think she kind of feels this way too, that they are pandering to the popularity in the United States of the first series. Speaker 1 (01:52): Oh, I totally Speaker 2 (01:53): Think so. And by moving it to Hawaii to try to get more Americans interested in the show. And also there's been so much English spoken on season on Aloha State. It's like most of the cast members, I mean, at least half of them seemed like they were fluent in English or they spoke pretty good English. Speaker 1 (02:17): But I also, there's a scene between Avian and Naomi where they're making a phone call and she's trying to, avian is trying to help her get a job. Speaker 2 (02:28): Oh yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Speaker 1 (02:30): She's literally cyrano whispering things in her ear. So good. And I love that. I love that stuff where they're helping each other out with the language. At that point, it becomes a part of the show and it doesn't feel just as pry to me. But I did totally have that same thought of, I bet this is a choice made largely due to the popularity the show has gained in the us. Well, we haven't even talked about the Art Academy once. Speaker 2 (02:59): Oh, yeah, yeah, Speaker 1 (03:00): That's true. Which you're sort of the ambassador, I guess, today, art Academy Ambassador. Speaker 2 (03:08): Yeah, Speaker 1 (03:10): It's kind of weird. I was thinking about that, how we were just talking about a little bit with Bruce, about how you didn't go to the art academy, but you kind of always have this connection with the place, and we were talking about your history with the museum, but your brother went here and a lot of your friends went here, and so it was just kind of interesting that you found yourself working there. Speaker 2 (03:34): Yeah, so I got a fine arts degree, undergraduate degree from DAP at University of Cincinnati. But my younger brother, who's three years younger than me, went to the art academy. And so I would come to the art academy a lot to help him screen print or just to do whatever or come see shows here. And I guess that's how I met you and a lot of other people that came here. Speaker 1 (04:04): I should probably also say Matt and I ran, helped Matt and his brother formed a gallery in their living room, basically in their apartment space, and then brought in other artists, including me to help manage the space and come up with ideas and run it. So I was kind of a part of that. So if we sound very familiar with each other, that's why. Or we just sort of drop random tidbits about each other Speaker 2 (04:33): Just Speaker 1 (04:33): Very casually. That's why Speaker 2 (04:34): We've probably known each other for what, 15 years? I graduated from DAP in 2002. Speaker 1 (04:41): I mean, yeah, I graduated probably probably close to that. I graduated in 2003, Speaker 2 (04:48): And Speaker 1 (04:48): That's probably right around the time I got involved with Publica. Speaker 2 (04:51): Right. That sounds about right. Yeah. Speaker 1 (04:53): Yeah. I had this shocking, actually just this morning I had this scary realization that if there was a baby born when I started college, they are now in college, and that's less of a, I can't believe I'm so old, but just more of a man time is weird. It does not feel like that Speaker 2 (05:16): At Speaker 1 (05:16): All. That doesn't feel right. That does not feel right. I am very aware of how old I am. That doesn't bother me, but I'm just like, that doesn't add up. The math doesn't seem right. Speaker 2 (05:29): Right. Yeah. A couple years ago when I sort of started adjuncting art courses at different colleges, I started, I was teaching a couple of foundations classes at Miami University in the art department there, and I think I was 35 or 36 at the time. And then I realized that the students that I was teaching, the freshmen students I was teaching were 18 years old, and it had been almost 18 years since I had been in their shoes. And it was just a weird, Speaker 1 (06:08): I don't think there's that much of a, in my mind, there isn't that big of a separation and that's so strange. Speaker 2 (06:15): Oh yeah, definitely. Speaker 1 (06:16): But I can remember also being in their age, and I was very aware of that separation of age. Speaker 2 (06:24): You thought that your instructors were way older than, Speaker 1 (06:27): Right? Speaker 2 (06:27): Yeah, exactly. I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day and I was like, it's kind of weird to have all these, I don't feel that separated. It doesn't feel to me that much time has passed and I don't feel that separated. And I've walked through this school a million times here at uc or at the Art Academy or something like that, but I get the distinct impression that this entire classroom of students think that I'm really old Speaker 1 (06:54): Or something. Yeah, Speaker 2 (06:55): Yeah, totally. Speaker 1 (06:57): Well, I was just thinking about that because I bring in guest artists for programs and sometimes I'm working with a art Academy student, and so I've worked with a few who I know just graduated this year. And so when I kind of did that math and was like, oh, whoa, they were born when I was going into college. Speaker 2 (07:17): That's Speaker 1 (07:18): Crazy. Yeah, Speaker 2 (07:19): Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (07:20): That I had never put, I just really did. And in my mind, yeah, we are closer to peers in that Speaker 2 (07:26): Sense, Speaker 1 (07:27): And I think of it that way, but I remember being that age and I never thought of it that way. Speaker 2 (07:31): Right. Yeah. I don't think I did either. Speaker 1 (07:34): Yeah. Yeah. That's one of those things where I even feel the same way when I'm around teenagers sometimes I don't think of it as this huge separation. And then I realize that that is how you become the person who's flips around the chair and just like, Hey guys, let's just rap about life. That's how you become Speaker 2 (07:56): The Speaker 1 (07:56): Super uncool adult Speaker 2 (07:58): Is Speaker 1 (07:58): When you don't realize you're an adult. Speaker 2 (08:00): Right, Speaker 1 (08:02): Right. Speaker 2 (08:03): Oh no, it's happening. It's happening to me. Speaker 1 (08:06): That's how you become the mom from Mean Girls, the Amy Po place who's just like, oh, you girls keep me young. Just like, look, I don't think of myself as a mom. I'm more of a friend. That's how it happens. Anytime I'm around a teenager, I realize, oh no. So in danger of going into that zone. Speaker 2 (08:32): Yeah, yeah. I'm on the precipice, Speaker 1 (08:37): So I'll make a joke or something that I think, yeah, we're all about, we're all Speaker 2 (08:42): Cool here. Speaker 1 (08:43): And then they just look at you. What are you talking about? All of your references are really old and I don't understand any of them. Speaker 2 (08:51): Yeah, I know. I've had so many eyes rolled at me in classrooms in the last few years can be tough to break through that perceived wall of age difference. So then Speaker 1 (09:10): You were adjuncting, is that a word? Adjuncting? Do people say that? Speaker 2 (09:15): I think only adjuncts say it. Say that. Yeah, Speaker 1 (09:18): I just said it, but I was like, I don't know. You are teaching, Speaker 2 (09:23): There's Speaker 1 (09:23): Probably a better word than adjuncting. Speaker 2 (09:26): So essentially I'm a professor of art who is not tenured anywhere, therefore is not owed any benefits. So yeah, I've taught some classes. I taught just a few classes at, or a couple of classes at Miami University several years ago. And then I taught off and on different courses in the fine arts department at University of Cincinnati and dap. And then since actually it's been just about a year, I became the exhibitions coordinator at the Art academy. Speaker 2 (10:10): So that means I'm responsible for the go between the exhibitions committee there that sets a lot of the show programming and the artists and the installation that needs to happen. So I do a lot of installing these shows with help from different people. And lately I've also been doing a lot of the sending out the press releases and getting word out about the show, but I'll also be teaching a class there. Actually it starts tomorrow, classes starts today. My class starts tomorrow, so I can now say that I'm also adjuncting at the Art Academy of Cincinnati. Speaker 1 (10:53): What are you teaching? Speaker 2 (10:54): So this semester I've taught a variety of things in the past from Foundations two D art classes to senior seminar. I taught advanced painting once, but this semester at the Art Academy I'll be teaching this class called Exhibition Studio. Speaker 1 (11:09): That's what I was wondering if you were doing something that connected with your day job there? Speaker 2 (11:15): Yeah, so it's basically a course that's like a studio critique course crossed with a kind of exhibition class. So I set up four different sort of small pop-up art shows that the students will present throughout the semester and then during the semester they'll make artwork and we'll talk about, we'll have normal critiques about the body of work that they're making, but then we'll also figure out how to curate it into a small pop-up exhibition at a gallery several times and they'll learn about writing artist statements Speaker 1 (12:01): And Speaker 2 (12:02): Resumes and things like that so that they can get a feel for what it's like to collaborate on an exhibition. So we have a show coming up at Wave Pool. We have one at Exposure 13, which is a small space that is run by the Art Academy. It was sort of donated to the Art Academy. It's not in the building though. It's outside on 13th Street. And the Art Academy is allowed to use it for exhibitions. We'll have one at Peak Gallery in Covington, and then the final one is in the Black box theater space at the cac cac. So that's basically, Speaker 1 (12:37): Has the Academy done stuff in the black box space before? Speaker 2 (12:41): Yeah, so this class has been offered before, I don't know how many times, but the last time it was offered was maybe a year or a year and a half ago. And I'm pretty much, I set up all the same shows that happened for that last time. So this class has done a show in the C a C Black box before. Speaker 1 (13:01): I think I just happened to be visiting one day when I think I walked into that show. Oh Speaker 2 (13:06): Really? Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 (13:06): So that's why I was like, I think I've seen this, but when you were mentioning the Black Box, I remember how going in there and seeing stuff down in that space. Speaker 2 (13:15): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I dunno, this is my first time teaching it, but it seems like it's going to be fun and should be interesting to put it. They're all sort of, I mean, most of the shows, with the exception of the one at Exposure 13, which will, that one can stay up for a month because I can actually, it's the school's space to use basically. So Speaker 1 (13:39): We can have Speaker 2 (13:40): A longer run there, but all the other shows are mostly one or two nights Speaker 1 (13:44): The Speaker 2 (13:44): Students install the work, we kind of have a reception and then we'll take them down a day or so later. Speaker 1 (13:51): So you also, since you've done this for a year now, you also get to be the kind of responsible party for when the students actually have to put on their own shows too? Speaker 2 (14:04): Oh yes. So senior shows, so when every, oh gosh, I guess it starts right after spring break, which I guess is sort of the end of March or something like that. So the graduating seniors essentially have thesis shows and that runs for, I mean last year it went for about six weeks and every week there's a different group of graduating seniors who present their work for their thesis, and then it turns over on Saturday and Sunday, and then the new show has to be up with the next group of seniors for the next week. So they use the school galleries for that. There are three galleries inside the Art Academy building, and it's great. It's like a super busy time with this huge new turnover of artwork every week in the space. But yeah, one of my responsibilities as exhibition coordinators, basically to make sure that the galleries sort of help the students if they need to install and de-install anything, but also make sure that the galleries get taken care of and get patched and everything gets taken down Speaker 1 (15:16): And the Speaker 2 (15:16): Holes in the walls get fixed and all of that stuff. So yeah, that's one other thing. Speaker 1 (15:21): And Art Academy students are probably not known for their, I don't know, sensibilities in this department. I'm saying this as a graph. Speaker 2 (15:30): Look, this, it would Speaker 1 (15:30): Depend, knowing just watching how many just crazy banana stuff people got away with this place is, it's so hard when I try to talk about my college experience with people sometimes just like it is, imagine going to a place where there is no sort of avant-garde in a way because the avant-garde is the institution. There was nothing shocking. And that's sort of how I think about it. So just it literally is anything goes when it comes to this sort of Speaker 2 (16:09): Stuff where Speaker 1 (16:09): You're just like, oh, well yeah, sure. And you just get into this mode where somebody's trying to do something totally crazy and you're just like, oh yeah, okay. Speaker 2 (16:15): Yeah, I mean it varies from student to student. Of course, any school there are Speaker 1 (16:23): Painting students who are just going to Speaker 2 (16:25): Some Speaker 1 (16:25): Go in and hang a painting and some nails Speaker 2 (16:28): Or who are super careful about making sure they do everything clean up Speaker 1 (16:34): And Speaker 2 (16:34): Stuff like that. But yeah, any school, there are some students, there are some instances where I have to come in and say like, well, hey, hey, don't put oil paint on the wall or stop writing on the wall with this whatever, or Can you come, please come take away your artwork now it's still here, it's over. So there are differences between students that way. Speaker 1 (17:05): Actually, now that I'm thinking about it too, your brother for his senior show, I believe, built a false drop ceiling. Speaker 2 (17:11): He did Speaker 1 (17:12): That connected with the G. This is the old space Speaker 2 (17:15): That Speaker 1 (17:15): Is actually weirdly in the building. Was in the building. We are recording this in now, but just right below us almost. So yeah, I mean those are the kind of things I'm kind of thinking of all the weird stuff that people would do. But yeah, Paul built this drop ceiling because the log gallery then had this pretty horrible drop Speaker 2 (17:33): With the inserted square quirky kind of fiberboard panels, like Speaker 1 (17:39): An office. And so he made one that just dropped down almost like the reverse of the CAC Speaker 2 (17:44): C I think that was the idea as he was kind of flipping what happens with the, what do they call it, carpet, urban carpet. Yes, the urban carpet at the CAC C. Yeah, it was like the reverse of that. He built, he sort of extended the framework of the drop ceiling and so that it curved downward and came down the wall to the, and met the floor. And then he sort of inserted all of, I think he might've even went and found the same fiberboard tiles. So they matched, it matched perfect. So the drop ceiling sort of just continued down the wall into Speaker 1 (18:17): The Speaker 2 (18:17): Floor. And I love that kind of stuff. I mean it's definitely kind of a handful sometimes because there are a lot of students and if all of them at once want to alter the ceiling or the floor, there's not enough hours in the day to keep track of it all. But a lot of times those installations wind up being the most memorable or those kind of crazy unexpected things in the gallery wind up being the most interesting and memorable things that happened. Speaker 1 (18:50): The main gallery there is still called the Chilo Gallery, isn't it? Or it didn't change? Speaker 2 (18:54): No. So the large gallery, which is kind of reserved for rotating, I don't know what you'd call them, sort of visiting exhibitions or visiting artists or I don't know, people who have been invited by the exhibitions committee to show that's called the Pearlman Gallery. Speaker 1 (19:12): Oh, that's right. Speaker 2 (19:13): And then we have in the lobby sort of connecting adjoining the lobby is an open space that's a little bit smaller, that's called the Convergence Gallery. And then we still have a law gallery, but it's a smaller gallery that's downstairs from the lobby and it's used for several different things, but it's mostly reserved for student shows. So students during the year can proposed to have shows there and they'll actually be scheduled to have a month long show. I mean, they might not always be a month, but they'll be scheduled to have shows there. Yeah, Speaker 1 (19:48): I've seen shows in that space. Speaker 2 (19:51): I didn't Speaker 1 (19:51): Quite realize the name. I had heard the Pearlman Gallery, but I didn't quite make all the connections of what's called what now. Speaker 2 (19:59): Right. Speaker 1 (20:01): Well I kind of thought we could go look at some art that has some connections to the academy's past actually. Speaker 2 (20:07): Alright, Speaker 1 (20:08): So I have a few ideas, so we'll figure that out and when we come back we'll actually be looking at something. Speaker 2 (20:13): Right. Let's do it. Speaker 1 (20:27): We are now in Gallery one 19 in the Cincinnati wing and we are looking at a painting that's one of my favorites in the collection. And it is one though, I imagine a lot of people probably would walk right on by. Actually, I've talked several times on this show about my assumptions about visitors' interests, so maybe I should stop stereotyping the visitors so much, but I could imagine this is not one that's going to grab a lot of people's attention. So it is called landscape near tss Noble's house on Kemper Lane. I'm guessing that is not the title he gave it because it would be very rude to call it that. I'm assuming that was a title attributed much later. Speaker 3 (21:14): He spoke in the third person a Speaker 1 (21:16): Lot I hear, and this is by TSS Noble, also known as Thomas Satterwhite Noble. And the reason I chose this piece, and actually we have another piece by him in the gallery we can kind of mention a little bit later is because he was the first director of the art academy, actually. He was the first director of the McMicken School of Design, Speaker 3 (21:41): Which Speaker 1 (21:42): Later split from the uc and became the art academy. So he was with both institutions I guess, or the same institution. But he was there when the academy became its own thing and actually joined the museum association. And when they moved here to our building was actually, I was telling you a little bit about this. He was actually a Confederate soldier. He was born in Lexington, but then later sort of was very ashamed of slavery. He actually grew up in his family owned slaves. He was from Lexington, Kentucky, and he felt it was really pretty terrible. And so he made these series of paintings that actually is what he became more known for, which were historical paintings that were all about the horrors of slavery. So he had one that I think is called the Slave Market, and he had one that became really popular or I've seen published in books a lot called The Price of Blood and it's shows a slave being bought this sort of small transaction and there's kind of this, I don't know, almost what I would think of as a real fat cat in the front, this guy in this be Speaker 3 (23:06): Beautiful coat Speaker 1 (23:08): And then this, I'm a little unclear of who's selling, of which direction the transaction's going, but you can basically see this man being sold who is of mixed race, and you can kind of assume he is probably the son of the man who is selling him. Speaker 3 (23:29): Oh, really? Speaker 1 (23:30): Yeah. Speaker 3 (23:31): Wow. Okay. So Speaker 1 (23:31): It's kind of pretty heavy Speaker 3 (23:32): Stuff. Speaker 1 (23:33): And so he was making this very powerful statement, showing this thing we know obviously was going on all Speaker 3 (23:43): The Speaker 1 (23:43): Time, but basically that's why it's called the Price of Blood because it's his blood relation that he's selling. So he became pretty well known for a lot of those works. And actually, so the other piece I mentioned on the wall, we have this study of head that's kind of on the opposite side of the gallery, which is very traditional and much more in line with those historical works, and probably he made that a little bit before he would've made those more famous paintings. So they, you can see that's where he came from. But then the painting we're looking at this landscape is just this field of green. Speaker 3 (24:32): It's kind of like a pile of mush, most of it. I don't mean that in a bad way, it's kind of like remarkable. I mean if it's painted circa 1890, it's so low contrast. It looks like it could be a field, just a field with some trees in the background, but there are pretty much entirely relegated to the top what fifth of the canvas. There's just a very small indication that a strip across the top of the painting with trees and the entire center of this image is just this kind of swirly, low contrast mass of brown and green. It's Speaker 1 (25:14): Pretty unusual void almost of, it's almost like a proto color field painting when you first Speaker 3 (25:20): It. Yeah, Speaker 1 (25:22): And actually one of my favorite things too about it is as a landscape, something that's so unusual is that the only hint of a sky you get are this tiny little brush of light up and the top that seems to be coming through the trees. But that's the other thing is that it is so disorienting because we can't tell where the sky starts and Speaker 3 (25:44): That Speaker 1 (25:44): Creates this. I think that in turn makes that division where we go from the horizon line, which is incredibly high to the tree line. I feel like that would feel more defined if we saw the tops of those trees and you would understand, okay, those are trees, this is the sky and then here's the ground, but instead the ground and the trees just become part of the same almost. Speaker 3 (26:09): Yeah, definitely. I think that what you're saying about the light coming through the trees is really interesting too, because that makes me think that maybe this is a twilight painting or maybe this represents a low light time and I'm just seeing this little bit of I'm in this dark space and I'm seeing this little bit of light peeking through the trees, which would make sense when you see the whole foreground being so low contrast, and I mean the whole painting's generally dark, but it doesn't make a lot of logical sense unless you think like, oh, maybe I'm in a darker place and there's a little bit of light peeking through and you only get that sense from those little dots at the top. Speaker 1 (26:55): Yeah, I think you're right to think it maybe is kind of approaching dusk or something because of the very, we were saying very low contrast, so we don't really have a lot, we don't see any shadows from the Speaker 3 (27:10): Sort of Speaker 1 (27:11): Few distinguishable plants here where this, but that's the other thing I love is it just looks like weeds and stuff. It looks so just wild. There's just this weed growing up here, but it doesn't really cast a ton of shadow that makes you feel like it certainly doesn't look like high noon or Speaker 3 (27:30): Anything Speaker 1 (27:30): In this space where it's very, I feel like there would be a lot more definition of what we are seeing here. Speaker 3 (27:36): Right. Well, when we first walked up to it, also, I mean, I couldn't tell at first if I was looking at a muddy patch of grass or if I was looking into a pool along the edge of a stream. Maybe this is a river bank and that's actually swirling weeds in water or something so undefined. Yeah, Speaker 1 (27:57): I can't tell either. Still. I've looked at it a few times and I've heard that theory as well that it is a pool almost, because you do kind of have this little edge Speaker 3 (28:07): Here Speaker 1 (28:08): At the top that you could almost interpret as the edge of a puddle, a Speaker 3 (28:12): Stream, Speaker 1 (28:14): And then you could almost read these as reflections of the same plants Speaker 3 (28:19): Up Speaker 1 (28:19): There Speaker 3 (28:20): Actually, which Speaker 1 (28:21): I could see that. And then almost you have that little stream and then this sort of muddier bank in front of it maybe makes sense. Speaker 3 (28:28): Yeah, actually it does. Now that you say that this kind of darker line here across upper, below the upper third of the Speaker 1 (28:39): Painting, Speaker 3 (28:40): That actually does look like it could almost be like the bank of a stream or something, and what you're saying about reflections those, the kind of mossy green stuff at the upper right, it does almost look like that could be a reflection Speaker 1 (28:52): In the water. When I sort of flip my glasses up and look at it, even blurrier, this is kind of a weird thing that actually it reads even more as a reflection Speaker 3 (29:02): Really Speaker 1 (29:02): In blurred right away. I can see that part seems very clearly reflecting that Speaker 3 (29:10): You Speaker 1 (29:10): Sort of brighter highlights seem to obviously mirror themselves, but they don't necessarily with my glasses on. Speaker 3 (29:17): Well then that could be a function of the distance we're standing away too. I mean probably I wasn't looking at this when we first walked into the gallery, so I don't know what my reception would've been if I had first seen it from 25 feet away across the room, maybe I would've immediately read it. Speaker 1 (29:34): That's true. Speaker 3 (29:35): As a stream bank or something like that. Speaker 1 (29:37): Well, and that's a good lesson I guess in something you probably are very aware of is the effects of where a piece is hung Speaker 3 (29:46): And Speaker 1 (29:46): How you read it. And I remember when we were deciding on where to hang things in, I remember there was a lot about that sort of almost how you would encounter a piece. Speaker 3 (29:58): Yeah, sure. Speaker 1 (29:59): Thinking about like, oh, well, this makes a really great first impression. You come in here, but then there's also these physical constraints. This piece, you actually, right now, the way we have it installed, and it's been in a couple of different places in this room, but right now you actually can't get very far back on it because there's this column kind of keeping you from getting too far back. So you do have to be in this sort of, I mean, I feel like I can get back enough that I can get a good look on, it's not like it's uncomfortable, but Speaker 3 (30:27): You Speaker 1 (30:28): Don't ever get that really far across the room look that you might if it was on the other side of the room. Speaker 3 (30:34): Yeah, I mean this makes, I occasionally in classes that I've taught, especially in foundations classes like two D design or I taught a class at uc called Surface Studio, which is essentially about composition and color theory. I mean, sometimes I'll make students go down to the end of the hallway to view their work from a distance or we're having a critique and we're talking about this very thing, and I'll have somebody hold Speaker 1 (31:01): The work and take it down to the end of the hallway Speaker 3 (31:02): So everyone can see how the view of it changes from a distance and this totally. If my students were here right now, I would make them all walk over there to the corner and look at it from a distance. Speaker 1 (31:14): Yeah, yeah. It's true. Or even, yeah, it's really weird mean, especially when you're working on your own art. One of the things that I definitely need to do a lot of times is to look at stuff in mirrors. Speaker 3 (31:27): Oh yeah. Speaker 1 (31:28): That's upsetting sometimes, especially if you're working on a face, Speaker 3 (31:33): Nothing Speaker 1 (31:33): Will reveal your problems quicker than looking at it in a mirror Speaker 3 (31:37): And you'll be like, Speaker 1 (31:37): Oh no. Speaker 3 (31:38): Oh, I know. It looks so strange. Speaker 1 (31:40): You're like, I messed this up. That's usually when I'm like, Speaker 3 (31:43): How Speaker 1 (31:43): Did that eye get so lopsided? What was I thinking? This head has no volume. Speaker 3 (31:48): Yeah, that's a really strange trick of the brain too. I don't know. The longer you're working on something, the more, I don't know, myopic, you spend all this time laboring on this small area of the thing, your brain turns off your ability to pay proper attention to it at some Speaker 1 (32:07): Point to see the big picture. In that Speaker 3 (32:10): Way, Speaker 1 (32:11): You're so focused on the details at that point that you're missing the bigger problems. Speaker 3 (32:17): And actually with us talking about this, I'm just backing up a few steps and I'm actually convinced now, the further I get back from this, the more I'm convinced I'm looking at a creek bed with a bit of water running past the n a hill on the opposite side, and it's all in this kind of low light. But Speaker 1 (32:35): Yeah, it's funny. I'm now coming around to that readed of it too, and I've been looking at this for four years, so it's like just now I'm convinced of it. I think I never interpreted it as that, but I also sometimes I would think, well, maybe it's this weird layer of fog or something too. That was the other thing I would sometimes see it as, Speaker 3 (32:55): I mean, it does seem like that this is a painting about atmosphere. It's about dusk or I'm in an overgrown area under these trees and I can see light peeking through, but I'm in a darker area and it's about capturing that atmosphere. It's funny, when we walked up to it, I didn't know what painting we were going to be talking about, but so I approached it just from coming around a corner and really up close, and so I didn't read any of that water stuff and the creek bed stuff we were talking about, but then when you're up close, the brush work is so strange and kind of fluid and just there are these little thin washy brush marks of this thinned out oil paint, and it's such a completely different read than I would have had if I just saw this from 25 feet away when I first walked into the room. Yeah, Speaker 1 (33:49): It's interesting. One of the things I've also, when I was researching him in the past, I learned that when he left the art academy, he moved to New York and by the sea and just basically painted seascapes. Speaker 3 (34:06): Oh, really? Okay. Speaker 1 (34:07): So I always think of this painting, and this is me totally projecting this onto him, that he basically was kind of miserable actually at the art academy, from what I can tell. Speaker 3 (34:16): Oh, really? Speaker 1 (34:16): He kind of hated it here, and he had a lot of people not making his life easy. He was dealing with Maria Longworth and Veak and a lot of people who were not super friendly to him, Speaker 3 (34:28): And Speaker 1 (34:29): By all accounts, he seemed like, and granted, I was reading this probably from a biography written by a person who really likes him, so he certainly was painting TSS Noble in the kindest of terms, but he just was Speaker 3 (34:44): Just Speaker 1 (34:45): So stressed out by this job and just so over it. So the minute he retired, he goes to New York and paints seascapes, paints seascapes, Speaker 3 (34:55): And Speaker 1 (34:56): So I always imagine him sitting in his house in Cincinnati looking out the window pretending this is the sea. It is the best I've got. It almost feels like the seascape and the way it's that super high horizon line and the colors, well, Speaker 3 (35:10): When you get up close, the brushwork is like, I mean, you can picture someone painting like a moving heaving Speaker 1 (35:18): Seascape Speaker 3 (35:19): With the same type of brushwork, just this kind of very fluid, loose, small marks that are really articulated and active and then these big sweeping marks. It does have that kind of feel. Speaker 1 (35:30): Yeah. I think I'm also so attracted to this painting because it feels like I love this moment of trying to pinpoint when modernism begins. Speaker 3 (35:41): Oh, yeah. Speaker 1 (35:42): And it's so hard. Of course, you get really tied down to these ideas of timelines and well, this starts here, this starts there this time period, and you're never really sure because it's all the seeds were being planted long Speaker 3 (35:57): Ago. Speaker 1 (35:58): You have people like Turner who were doing this before him already, so you already have somebody out there who's kind of going actually way further than this. But then the way this feels like the beginnings of something like I called it a proto color field painting, and I feel like that's where we're headed with this. Speaker 3 (36:20): Yeah, sure. Speaker 1 (36:21): And just the expressiveness of the brush strokes and all that. Speaker 3 (36:25): Well, look how all the more specific articulated representation is literally being pushed out of the frame. It's the indications of more clarity of trees at the top and of the weeded at the side. They're literally being pushed to the margins. They're about Speaker 1 (36:45): To leave Speaker 3 (36:46): The frame entirely. It's almost like he looked at this and then his slowly panning down until eventually we're just going to have a big blob of indecipherable grass taking up the whole image. Speaker 1 (37:00): That just reminded me of something else, and we talked about this in the Van Gogh episode we did, but there was a Van Gogh painting and the exhibition we had that had a similar thing going on where the things in the background further in the distance had more clarity, which is a sort of odd Speaker 3 (37:18): Trick. Yeah, sure. Speaker 1 (37:19): Typically you reverse this. Speaker 3 (37:21): Yeah. It's like flipped depth of field. Speaker 1 (37:24): So it's like this weird thing where the things in the foreground, which typically have the most definition and clarity here are the most wishy-washy Speaker 3 (37:32): Rushy Speaker 1 (37:33): Stuff that typically is, it's this total reverse of how a painting is normally made. Speaker 3 (37:39): Yeah. He's totally foregrounding the most gestural aspects of making this painting, right? Yeah. Speaker 1 (37:45): Literally, which makes you think, well, that's what he was interested in. Speaker 3 (37:48): Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (37:49): It is. What is taking up the literal most amount of space on this canvas. Speaker 3 (37:53): Yeah. I think that also just how dark the painting is and how low contrast it is. I mean, it's part of that. It's parallel to all of that. It's like he's foregrounding this very low contrast, low color range in this piece. It's not just about the blurriness, but it's also all fairly dark. It's all very related. Greens and browns all kind of smashed together. Speaker 1 (38:24): Yeah. I think the other thing that I remember what excited me most about this painting was that it also had this really direct musical connection for me, Speaker 3 (38:35): Which Speaker 1 (38:35): Was that I made a lot of connections with the Overture to Reinold by Wagner, which is kind of often called the first piece of drone music, Speaker 3 (38:48): Really, Speaker 1 (38:49): Because it's essentially one note is more going on, but it is very repetitive Speaker 3 (38:57): And Speaker 1 (38:58): It's always building and building and building and adding more things. But it's also a piece about water because it's supposed to be representing, I mean, some people feel it's almost the creation of the universe is like Speaker 3 (39:14): He's trying Speaker 1 (39:14): To show us in this way, but also it's supposed to kind of culminate in this watery Rhine River where the opera begins so that we keep talking about the brushstrokes always relates to it. So I always hear the overture of Dass Reinold when I look at this piece as well. Speaker 3 (39:34): Yeah. So it's the famous painting, is it The Death of Ophelia Ophelia floating down the Yeah. Speaker 1 (39:41): Yeah. It's the Pre Raphael Light Paint out. Speaker 3 (39:42): Yeah. I forget which painter. Speaker 1 (39:44): Okay, we'll look at this up. Speaker 3 (39:45): I thought of that painting almost even before we started. The odd thing is even before we really started talking about this as us being convinced that this is a sort of stream flowing past or the edge of a pond or something like that, I think that was one of the first things I thought of when I walked up to it, and I think it's because of that. This kind of nodded mass of weeds and grass and stuff. It made me think of that painting right away. Speaker 1 (40:14): Yeah. It's John Everett malaise or Malay, I don't know. I mean, he's British, so I don't know if he pronounces that Ss at the end. It looks like a very French Speaker 3 (40:23): To Speaker 1 (40:24): Me, so I wouldn't say M, but M I L A I S. But Speaker 3 (40:29): Yeah, I thought of that painting right away when we walked up. Speaker 1 (40:31): But yeah, the palette is really similar Speaker 3 (40:33): Too. Speaker 1 (40:33): Yeah, Speaker 3 (40:33): Definitely. Speaker 1 (40:34): But it is almost like you take that painting and you remove the figure, Speaker 3 (40:38): Right? Yeah. And then you put a blur filter over it, and you have this painting. Well, you Speaker 1 (40:44): Mentioned you love the ttw Men painting springtime. I Speaker 3 (40:47): Do. It's ones my favorites. That's Speaker 1 (40:49): Couple galleries behind us, and he actually taught TW Men, Speaker 3 (40:55): So Speaker 1 (40:55): You can kind of maybe see that at least towards the end. Maybe this was an influence on ttw men. I, I'm sure there were plenty of other people Toman was studying with at the academy who could also be pushing him in this direction. But Speaker 3 (41:10): Yeah, I think I can see that connection too. And you have it hanging here sort of almost like book leaves and on the other corner opposing this noble painting is another Toman painting. Speaker 1 (41:22): Bloody Run. Speaker 3 (41:23): Yeah, bloody Run, which is sort of, I mean, a snowy hillside with a really steely kind of gray sky. And I think these are so great together because they really seem to largely be about creating an atmosphere. And the same as that other Tuchman painting you just mentioned Springtime, which I love that painting. I've always loved that painting, but these paintings all seem to be about Speaker 1 (41:44): How Speaker 3 (41:44): Do I capture the sort of perfect atmospheric feel of this moment in this particular landscape that I'm looking at right now in this weather, that kind of stuff. Speaker 1 (41:55): I think also, I can imagine bloody run would be about as equally unpopular with guests really Speaker 3 (42:03): Just because it is so dismal, it's pretty somber, and this is Speaker 1 (42:10): Not giving you a lot of good feelings. I mean, I think it is doing exactly what it set out to do, and you're saying it captures this atmosphere so perfectly, Speaker 3 (42:20): But Speaker 1 (42:20): It is not the kind of snowy wonderland I want to be in. It's like the actual reality of it. Speaker 1 (42:28): We have, again, in the same gallery that is the TW painting springtime we are discussing, which I think is a much more likable painting probably just because, I mean, people tend to color, so you give them something that's black and gray and brown and they're just like, but so it is got a lot of nice color into it, even though it's pretty subdued. It's not over the top. But then in that same gallery, there's this painting by et Hurley that's Garfield Park in the snow, and it's super impressionist. You can almost barely make it out, but it's kind of the exact opposite of it as the magic of winter. Speaker 3 (43:10): Everything's blue, Speaker 1 (43:12): And then this is just like, no, it's muddy and gross. Speaker 3 (43:15): This is a winter painting when you're sick of winter. Speaker 1 (43:18): Exactly. This is that last giant snow in February, and you are just like Uhuh. Yeah, it is not that. So we had a battery failure. My recorder's battery died, so we cut out. So if there's a pause there or a little weird gap, that's why. But yeah, we were talking about this Taman painting and how it looks like the worst of winter. Speaker 3 (43:52): It Speaker 1 (43:52): Is not the idyllic winter that you typically see painted, so it's just, I don't know. There's something about both of these that I feel like, again, in my stereotyping of museum visitors. Speaker 3 (44:07): Right. Speaker 1 (44:09): Do you have anything else to say about it or anything? Speaker 3 (44:13): I forget, we were talking about, I think we were talking about the fact that he, that Noble was one of Walkman's teachers. Speaker 1 (44:22): Yeah. He also taught Elizabeth nurse whose paintings are all around us. I think there's one right behind us there Speaker 3 (44:31): Who Speaker 1 (44:31): Also actually this painting that's right behind us is First communion, and one of my favorite things about it is these white dresses and veils, but again, to look at all the different colors, when you get up close to those, that white dress, it's actually filled with green. Speaker 3 (44:53): Yeah, there's green and blue, a lot of green and blue in it, Speaker 1 (44:56): Pinks and purples, and it's really, really rich color, and it's also very, this kind of swirly atmospheric paint too. You can kind of see in this TSS Noble painting too. So you can maybe see some possible influences there around, or again, even if it's not directly influenced by TSS Noble, at least sort of what was happening at the time in Cincinnati Speaker 3 (45:24): In Speaker 1 (45:25): Painting, definitely you can see all of that influence, and I'm sure even EK's influence is to be felt in a lot of this, even though I know Veeck and TSS Noble didn't exactly get along super well. Speaker 3 (45:41): Right. When did Noble retire from the Art Academy? Do you know? That? Speaker 1 (45:47): A good question that I don't know if I wrote down. Oh, yes, I did. He retired in 1904. Speaker 3 (45:53): Okay. Speaker 1 (45:54): Yeah, Speaker 3 (45:55): So he only got three years of living in New York and painting the seaside. Speaker 1 (46:02): It Speaker 3 (46:02): Looks like he died in 1907. Yeah. Speaker 1 (46:08): And actually here, this is the point in the podcast where Russell actually reads the labels. I'm sure I have read this label before. It's just been a while, but I saw EK's name mentioned, so I just wanted, Speaker 3 (46:21): Yeah, I noticed that too. I looked like it looks like this painting was originally thought to be Speaker 1 (46:27): By Venet. Oh, Speaker 3 (46:28): That's right. I noticed Speaker 1 (46:29): That. I forgot that. Yeah, so that's really interesting that he would be even credited with creating that Venet just, I mean, he was not, I think a generally super easygoing guy. That's just his kind of reputation was that he was, I remember reading something where he was referred to as the acid tongue, Speaker 3 (46:55): Which I love. Yeah. Saw the acid tongue, duveneck Speaker 1 (46:58): Acid tongue. So yeah, he towed it like it is. EK was not here to make friends. That's right. That's right. To bring it back to reality television, Speaker 3 (47:09): He wasn't come here to make friends. That's Speaker 1 (47:11): Right. Speaker 3 (47:11): Yeah. Speaker 1 (47:13): We should have a reality show pinned around 19th century painting. Any other last thoughts about TS Noble? Speaker 3 (47:28): Not really. I mean, I do think what you said about how easy it would be to walk past this painting and sort of not pay much attention to it, that really, I'm thinking about that a lot right now because I've been to the art museum so many times. I grew up in Cincinnati. I came here a lot. I still come here a lot, and I actually have never paid that much attention to this painting before. I'm sure I've seen it many times. Yeah, Speaker 1 (47:57): It's been in this room. I think it might've come down for a little bit, but it has been in here, I would say at least out of the past four years I've been here probably three of the four years it has been on display. I'm going to guess. Speaker 3 (48:10): But just thinking about that, this is now for me, just the latest instance of me becoming ever more aware that if paying attention to a work of art is just endlessly fruitful, if I look at some, there is always something for me to look at and analyze, and then the more I analyze it, the more I see there. And this is just the latest, I encounter this all the time. I'm constantly looking at some work that I maybe have seen before and hadn't paid that much attention to or analyzed, and then I'm looking at it and suddenly I become interested in it. I'm 38 and I become interested in a painting that I've seen many times, but never paid attention to, and I love that. And so this is now the latest instance of that for me. Speaker 1 (48:54): Yeah. I do that mean constantly. I'll walk by something. I mean, the weirdest ones for me is I work here, I walk through these galleries constantly and I will literally see something that I've never seen, never noticed. I'll ask the guard who's on duty, I'm like, is this new? Did they just hang this up? Speaker 3 (49:12): And Speaker 1 (49:12): They'll look at me like, no, are you crazy? It's been here 15 years probably. And Speaker 3 (49:17): You're like, Speaker 1 (49:18): Oh, okay. And then suddenly you're like, oh, wow, look at that's really, I love this little detail here. And you just start Speaker 3 (49:25): Getting Speaker 1 (49:26): Into this thing that you've walked by all these years. Speaker 3 (49:29): Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (49:30): Yeah. And for me, it's funny because I remember mean, at least when I started working here in this current job or wave of jobs I've had recently that this was actually one that stood out to me right away. But that also, I just know that I think I used to think I had normal tastes, and now I'm starting to realize almost the opposite. Well, if I'm into something, probably nobody else will be. Speaker 3 (49:58): I Speaker 1 (49:58): Really like this thing. So probably most people will not is almost a safer bat than I used to assume. Oh yeah. I think I a generally pretty similar taste, and this is with anything, music, anything. Almost always the song off of an album I love is the one that later you'll hear people like, oh, I always skip that track. Really? I love that one. I never understand why the big hit single is the hit single. It just goes over my head of things that are sort of accessible. I think part of it too is also I love things that are sort of slightly disruptive and kind of mess with your expectations a lot. And also that's what people generally don't like, and especially in art and music, things that give you a sense of unease. Those things that people pass around on Facebook all the time that are like, if you are O C D, this is going to drive Speaker 3 (50:57): You crazy. Speaker 1 (50:59): Those images are my Speaker 3 (51:01): 10 things that only left-handers will understand stand. Speaker 1 (51:05): So those images of a perfectly tiled floor where one of the tiles Speaker 3 (51:12): Is just gone, Speaker 1 (51:12): Oh God, I love them. And they're so satisfying to me to watch that thing just be a little messed up. To me, it's thrilling. Speaker 3 (51:25): Oh Speaker 1 (51:25): Yeah. Speaker 3 (51:25): This painting's totally, I mean, it doesn't give you the definition that you might think initially you want out of looking at a landscape. It just denies you all the clarity that you might want when you went to the edge of a stream to look out at the what's across the stream, it doesn't give you any of that. It doesn't even give you a color range that will allow you to pick items out very well. Speaker 1 (51:50): You know what, it's kind of like it's Terrace house. Well, Speaker 3 (51:55): What isn't Speaker 1 (51:56): Really? Yeah. But I'm totally doing this as a clear way of wrapping it up and also making sure I can get at least a little bit of that terrace house stuff in here. But because when I first started watching Terrace House, I was so used to American reality TV that I had this expectation of Speaker 3 (52:19): A Speaker 1 (52:19): Certain level of drama and a certain level of, I don't know, things happening. And in the first few episodes you watch, you're just like, nothing is happening. People are just sitting at a table, barely talking to each other, and then by the end, you recalibrate to, so when there is little small dramas that normally would not even warrant screen time, and on an American reality show on the real world or something, which is its closest equivalent, this little minor drama is not worth our time. Speaker 3 (52:52): We Speaker 1 (52:52): Would feel like. But then when that happens, you're just so excited, Speaker 3 (52:58): Like, Speaker 1 (52:58): Oh my gosh, I can't believe that just happened. Speaker 3 (53:01): Yeah, sure. Speaker 1 (53:02): And a little glance becomes the biggest thing. Speaker 3 (53:06): So it Speaker 1 (53:06): Becomes really satisfying ultimately because of its sort of denial of what you expects. Speaker 3 (53:12): It becomes more about Speaker 1 (53:13): Subtlety, Speaker 3 (53:13): And Speaker 1 (53:16): I think it's why people become obsessed with it too, because it is anything like art, anything. It asks more of the viewer. So you have invested more of yourself in this thing, and so you feel like you've gotten so much more back from it. And I think that's how a lot of this art that's at first denies you something that you kind of, Speaker 3 (53:38): Well, because you feel like you've made, you're part of the discovery. Then right now, I feel like I have more of a relationship with this painting because the things that we've talked about feel like I discovered that I have a part in the discovery of what's going on in this painting. So it definitely, it gives me sort of a greater, I feel like I have maybe a little bit more of a connection to it invested that time. I have that relationship with this painting now. Speaker 1 (54:07): Well, and I found, actually, I've always been a person who kind of loves to, when I don't quite get something, usually actually it makes me buckle down and want to understand it even more. And I remember actually in college having to write papers about pieces in the museum, and I remember I specifically chose to write about the Frank Stella piece on the third floor because I don't like it or I didn't like it a lot, Speaker 3 (54:35): And Speaker 1 (54:35): Through writing the paper, I ended up liking it a lot more. I Speaker 3 (54:39): Came Speaker 1 (54:39): Away being like, Speaker 3 (54:39): You know what? Speaker 1 (54:40): Actually a lot of the things I think, while it probably is not my favorite thing still, I definitely understood where he was coming from and kind of got like, okay, I get that all of this is the things that maybe initially turned me off are entirely the point of the piece. This is the point of it. So I do kind of feel like anytime you spend a significant amount of time just analyzing something and really looking at it, you kind of come away with a greater appreciation for it, even if it's something you initially did not like. Speaker 3 (55:14): Yeah, I completely agree. And those times that that has happened to me, those often are my favorite instances of looking at art. The ones that I really remember and that stick with me and that I look back on are those times when I didn't really have any kind of appreciation for something, but it kind of converted. Having to interact with it sort of converted me. Speaker 1 (55:35): Yeah. Speaker 3 (55:36): Yeah. Speaker 1 (55:36): Totally. Speaker 3 (55:37): Yeah. Speaker 1 (55:38): Well, thank you, Matt, for joining us today. Speaker 3 (55:41): Yeah, absolutely. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks. Speaker 1 (55:50): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the Art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are William KenRidge, more Sweetly Play The Dance and Aila Kaga. All the flowers are for me. Opening September 8th is Ana England kinship. Join us on Saturday, September 9th at 1130 for the first Creativity and Growth program. This collaboration, indigo Hippo focuses on wellness, mindfulness, and self-improvement through calming gallery activities and art making. This free program is for all ages and Sunday, September 10th is Grandparents' Day, so why not bring them by at three o'clock for a special free gallery experience that will involve special performances of music and poetry. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. We just started a Facebook group, so please join it if you are a fan. Our theme song is, oh, fron Music by bau. And as always, give us those five star reviews on iTunes. I'm Russell Eig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum. Speaker 1 (57:15): I.