Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): You will say she was bisexual. She just loved Speaker 1 (00:07): In Speaker 2 (00:07): General without any restrictions in that sense. Speaker 1 (00:23): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool people are the past guests with whom we've discussed L G B T Q issues. In our first clip from episode 20, I'm talking with Catalina Cuervo, the opera singer who was singing the role of Frida Kahlo in Cincinnati Opera's, production of Frida. We had a great discussion about Frida's life, including her sexuality. So this is your second time playing Frida? Speaker 2 (01:00): Yes. Second production. Second Speaker 1 (01:02): Production. So well again this time. All right. When did you first play? Speaker 2 (01:09): We did the same production in Detroit in 2015. Speaker 1 (01:14): Okay. Speaker 2 (01:15): With couple years ago with Michigan Opera Theater. Speaker 1 (01:17): So you've been spending, it's been two years now with Frida? Speaker 2 (01:21): Yeah, we did it back two years ago. We did it in three different theaters, about 11 or 12 performances. It was a long run, and then I kind of put it on hold a little bit, and then we are back at it this year with Cincinnati Opera. Very excited to be able to play that role again. For me, it's a dream come true because I admired her long way before I even got this part. When I went to Mexico, I was fascinated with her house, and I went and I bought every single thing about her books, all kinds of things about her. I was fascinated with her before I even got the part. Speaker 1 (02:02): And I'm just kind of curious about, I listened to just a little bit of, I think the concert suite just before we were talking, and I was just trying to think in what ways do you think the music reflects the spirit of Frida, or are there parallels between the music in the opera and her art? Speaker 2 (02:24): Definitely, definitely. And I think this is where you see that Robert, Javier Rodriguez, the composer, did an amazing job with this music because when you hear the opera, you just hear it. You don't see anything. You just hear it. You immediately feel in the presence of her. And the way he captured that was by the composition of the voice. So I'm going to get a little bit more in detail about it, just like the portraits where you see Frida very strong, where we were talking about the Beyonce look, Speaker 2 (02:57): A lot of her own portraits that she did, and her photos show a very strong Frida and almost very serious Frida. But on the other hand, if you see videos of her with Diego or with her friends and stuff like that, you see a very loving, almost delicate, sweet Frida. So everybody talked about these two personalities. It's not that she was bipolar, it's that she was everything. She was both strong and weak, and she was both a woman and a man. And she was like that all the time. She was sweet when she had to be sweet, and she was strong when she had to be strong. And the way Roberta Rodriguez put that in the music is that I actually sing with two different voices. I do many parts of it. I sing it in my chest voice, which for those that don't know what the chest voice is, basically your regular voice, the one where you sing pop music, Speaker 2 (03:57): Or when you sing Happy birthday, that's your chess voice. And musical theater, for example, everything that is Broadway is sang with your chess voice. So I sing whole scenes with my chess voice, which show a more sensual, stronger Frida. And then there's whole scenes where I sing in my lyric voice. My lyric voice is the one of the soprano, my opera voice, and it's completely different. And those scenes, I am the more delicate, loving Frida, and he did that. So it's difficult vocally because I have to sing in both voices and be switching from one scene to the other. Or even in the same scenes, I switch voices. And it sounds like two different people are singing one line, and it's not that it's just capturing frida's personality. Speaker 1 (04:47): When you kind of were sort of hinting at this when you said she's both a woman and a man, and Frida is a, maybe I shouldn't say famously bisexual artist, but that's something certainly important to me. And I was sort of curious if that gets talked about in the opera. I also know it's from 1995, so I wasn't sure Speaker 2 (05:06): We talk about, or Speaker 1 (05:07): 1991, right? Speaker 2 (05:09): 1991. Speaker 1 (05:09): 91, yes. Speaker 2 (05:10): We talk about it. We actually have a beautiful scene. It's absolutely gorgeous. It's one of my favorite scenes where we show that she had both men and women as lovers. Frida believed that sexuality didn't have to be encaptured in that, oh, I am a woman that likes men, or I am a woman that likes women. Or no, it was like sex is sex. And she enjoyed her body and she enjoyed sex to the point where for her men and women could make her feel good, and she could make both men and women feel good too. So you'll say she was bisexual. She just loved Speaker 1 (05:51): In Speaker 2 (05:51): General without any restrictions in that sense. And we do portray it Speaker 1 (05:57): On our opera too. Speaker 3 (05:58): Yeah, Speaker 1 (05:58): That's great. That's great to hear. I was curious about that. Yes. Next we have a clip from episode 60 with Kevin Allison, creator of the Risk Podcast, explaining how coming out inspired his podcast and changed his life. Well, we haven't Speaker 3 (06:22): Actually talked Speaker 1 (06:23): Anything about risk at all. Speaker 3 (06:24): So how did Speaker 1 (06:25): You start Speaker 3 (06:26): Making the podcast and how did you start Speaker 1 (06:28): Making risk? Speaker 3 (06:28): Well, I realized I was gay when I was a little kid, and that's an unusual experience. Most people begin who are gay, begin to realize it in the high school college roundabout that time. But I was hyper aware of it from the beginning of consciousness, which I had by all objective reality, a happy childhood. But I grew up terrified about this thing that I was keeping a secret the whole time. My family was very devoutly Catholic and everything, and so I was afraid I was going to go to hell, and I was afraid that if anyone found out about this part of me, that I'd lose all my friends and family. It was very scary, that aspect of my life when I was a child. So as the years went by, of course I did start coming out to people in high school and college and yada yada, but I grew up very fascinated and obsessed and had a complex around this whole idea of coming out which sides of my personality do I allow people to see? Speaker 3 (07:43): When and when I became a comedian after college, I felt like, oh, I have to have as much control over that as possible. I have to be whatever Hollywood wants me to be. And when my sketch comedy group broke up, that just wasn't working for me. I wasn't able to figure out when I might seem too gay in a character, why I was performing, or when I might be coming off as too Midwestern because I am, or when I might seem a little bit too absurdist. I'm such a comedian, et cetera, et cetera. So I was always second guessing myself about the sides of my personality. I was showing to people, and it was really shooting myself in the foot. I got more and more stage fright and more and more social anxiety about this over the years and during the 12 years between the state, my sketch comedy group breaking up, and 2009 when I created risk, I was just a starving artist. I was doing a lot of catering waitering. I was drinking too much. I was just battling with stage fright and just not getting anywhere in my career. Then in 2009, I did a show, a one person show. It was five kooky characters like I was used to doing from my sketch comedy days and all five characters. The theme was that they had screwed up their careers. So it was obviously trying to be kind of autobiographical, but in a kooky charactery way, right? Speaker 3 (09:21): And Michael Lee Black, who had been a member of the state, came to see the show. And afterwards I said, what'd you think? And he said, I think the whole audience just wishes you would've dropped the mask. Just stop acting like these characters get up on stage and tell your own true stories. And I said, oh, I'm just afraid that I'm too gay sometimes and too Midwestern seeming at sometimes and too absurdist at other times, and it feels too risky to be the real me. And he said, risk. That's the word. Keep that word in mind because if you feel like you're taking a risk, it probably means you're opening up to people and then people will start opening up to you. So the very next week I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to tell a true story in front of an audience instead of playing a crazy kooky character. Speaker 3 (10:19): And I was 39 years old, so it was weird that this was the first time I was doing this in this way. But I did tell a true story at a true storytelling show that week, and I was terrified. I felt like it was so risky. It was a sexual story. So it was very revealing, and I was amazed because while I was telling this story to this audience that night, I did come to those places where I was second guessing myself. I did come to the places where I was like, Ooh, that sounded too gay. Or, oh, I sounded like such an Ohio boy then, or whatever it was, but it didn't matter. They kept leaning in closer to me and listening deeper and deeper because I was telling the truth, and I felt this connection with the audience that I hadn't felt on stage in years. Speaker 3 (11:11): So I walked away from that show that night, and it all kind of came together after years and years and years of failure. It just all clicked into place. I was like, this is what I should do. I should create a live show and a podcast called Risk where people tell true stories that they never thought they'd dare to share in public. Everyone on the show should be kind of coming out about something or showing some side of their personality that they're not used to sharing in mixed company and exploring these moments in their lives that they would otherwise be talking to a therapist, the most emotional or the most revealing or the most meaningful moments in their lives. Once I started studying storytelling shows, I started looking at this American Life and The Moth, Speaker 3 (12:06): Which both had very popular, well, they still do very popular podcasts as well as being on the radio. And so I was listening to a lot of their stuff and realizing, oh, they have to keep stuff very clean and not too emotional and politically correct, and all these things. Whereas if I put out a podcast, I can let people speak in a much more unfiltered way where there's nowhere where we have to fear to tread, of course, on risk. We're extremely mindful about being compassionate, about making sure the storytellers aren't being hateful toward anyone. But when it comes to sex or violence or extremely emotional stories or scary stories or whatever, we go a lot of places on risk. So I created this podcast and this live show, we just did it at a space called Ludlow Garage last night here in Cincinnati. The way it works is on the podcast I'll announced, Hey, Cincinnati, we're coming to town in three months. Speaker 3 (13:08): Pitch us your stories. And it's fascinating because we'll get like 20 pitches or so, and we'll kind of weeded through them and say, well, does this sound like something we haven't heard before? And we'll start interviewing some of these folks and we'll start narrow it down to about eight and then to finally to four and start really working with those people. And it's interesting because in helping a person prepare a story, a lot of what you do is a little bit more like a therapist than an editor. You have to poke and prod people like, wait, how do you really feel about your mother? Or, wait, wait, wait. Did you have ulterior motives when you said that? Those are the kind of questions that really get great stuff out of people. So yeah, risk is now almost 10 years old. The podcast gets over a million downloads per month, and we just put a book out this past summer as well, as well as a little series that we just put out on Amazon of some stories we put out on Amazon called This Can't Be Happening that You Can Listen to or Download on your Kindle. Speaker 3 (14:21): So we're staying super, super busy. And then I also have this school that I created called The Story Studio. So we teach people how to do storytelling, not just for the creative purpose of doing it on stage, like on risk, but also we do a lot of corporate workshops. Some people will hear risk and they'll realize, whoa, these are not the kind of stories you could share in the office because they're very uncensored. But they also understand, oh, the basic principles of storytelling can be applied to other contexts, and especially in business situations, a lot of people need some help humanizing the things that they want to communicate, learning to speak instead about processes and data and the history of projects to make it about the people and the emotional impact of this or that on what the team is doing. So it's been at the age of 39, I created risk and it completely transformed my life because so many people heard the show and were so moved by it that it developed this very passionate fan base, and it became a way I could make a living finally. Speaker 1 (15:50): Well, a happy ending to at least the beginning of the story, which was that you Speaker 3 (15:53): Were sort of lost in your career. Absolutely. Yeah. So at least it worked Speaker 1 (15:57): Itself out that way. In the bonus episode from April 8th, 2018, we presented a live recording of the panel discussion that occurred after a screening of Difficult Love, a documentary about South African photographer Nellie Muha, who is an advocate for her community of L G B T Q, women Associate Curator of Photography. Nathaniel Stein moderated the discussion with Heal and Build co-director Alexander Shelton and University of Cincinnati, department of Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies, professors, Ashley Courier and Tere, because it was a live recording, the audio is a bit rough, but I think the conversation was pretty important. Speaker 4 (16:47): I wonder if it might be a good time to tackle a question, which is one that I am always obsessing over in my own work, and that is, do you think that what Mahoney's work does would be possible if she were not a member of the community that she is photographing? No. Can you expand on that? Yeah, I can tell you why, because it took me three months to be able to do work with Forum for the Empowerment of Women for quite a while, Alia's background, she started working for Behind The Mask, an organization that's featured later in the film, the editor. It was a website that it existed for about 12 years, and it documented L G B T I organizing on the continent, African continent more broadly. They lost funding. The website went to Funk. So she split off from that organization with her then partner, who is a Jamaican woman who had a long history of anti homophobic activism there. Speaker 4 (17:49): And they founded, formed for the Empowerment of Women in the early two thousands, they started documenting anti-lesbian rape and violence, which Holy is one of the activists who coined the, it's a problematic term, corrective rape, which has been criticized by feminists in South Africa and elsewhere. But when this phenomenon began getting circulated outside South Africa, there were US Western European journalists coming into South Africa wanting to collect this narratives of broken lesbian women. That's what they wanted. Those are the visuals that they wanted. And so they mean the organization put very strict parameters then on who could have access to the organization, who could have access to these stories and wanting to control again, these stories that circulated. So it's actually a little dismaying in this film for me to see Millicent Geca and on portrayed, she actually became the public face of a campaign against corrective rape that a capetian black lesbian activist organization called Mounted. Speaker 4 (19:17): And again, those images of Geico's face. And then, I mean, I appreciated the whole restorative portraits of Geca after the fact, but still, the film is bridging this problem of representing violence in a very particular way. I mean, violence is an undercurrent here. I mean, that's Origins as an activist in combating specifically anti-lesbian violence. But again, to answer your question, I don't think she could do this work if she weren't a member of the community. But are you saying that because of her access to the community and the trust that it's her access? One of the things you asked, how was she a visual activist? One of the things that she started doing when she was at Forum for the Empowerment of Women was offering photography courses. So it's again, teaching people a usable skill, right on the one hand. But then it's also arming women with cameras in townships. So if you see somebody camera in the township, this is somebody who could document you doing things. I mean, it's putting them on notice. We are capturing your reality as well. So in that regard, I think it's a whole, Speaker 5 (20:48): Yeah, I don't think she could Speaker 6 (20:50): Get this intimacy in the trust. Speaker 7 (20:52): And if I may also add onto what Ashley says, I think that what's really amazing and striking about her work is the fact that it is infused with this sense of intimacy. I mean, it's not just documents. She's not just documenting these lives. They also have, I mean, the portraits, I think there's something that very much comes out of these pictures in terms of the connections that she has with these people. But again, I think that there is this kind of intimate, I don't know what to call it, but this kind of intimate depth maybe that's very much part of her work. And I think that is why also her work is so powerful because it has not just this kind of documentary testimonial purpose, but it is again, very kind of like it's completely shaped and informed by the love also that she has for these people and by the love that she knows exists between these people. Speaker 7 (21:50): So I think that from an aesthetic viewpoint, I think that these inside knowledge and personal connection that she has with these people is a kind of inherent part of, I mean, I think I'm not an expert in any way, but to me it's in many ways, I mean to use a little bit of a maybe old fashioned type kind of radiance, the aura of her work comes from, it's this profound humanity that she experiences with these people. It's not just about them. I think she really does the pictures with them, and as she says, she doesn't like to use the word subject. So because she word with many connotations, it doesn't accurately represent also not just the fact that these people are agents, but also the fact that she has an actual relationship with some of these people. Speaker 6 (22:52): I think many photographers who work in that sort of space or vein use words like collaborators or participants. Participants is I think a common one. I think the reason why I ask this question, there are many reasons, but one of them is that I think that throughout the history of photography, it's been this sort of dream and goal that photography as a medium, as a medium has this power to foment some kind of authentic and true understanding across boundaries of difference and power. I think it's taken many different shapes over the history of the medium and many different forms and terms of photographic practices. But I think it's probably an open question as to how successful that is when it's practiced in different ways. And I would say personally, I noticed in recent times there does seem to be the shift towards representation, essentially self-representation, either giving members of one's own community, the power to self represent or making representations where the subject matter in quotations, the participants, it is one's own community. Speaker 6 (24:05): I've noted that to be a kind of shift in the way that, I suppose you can say a form of documentary photography is being conducted now. And I think you can see that from practitioners that I think would define themselves as activists period. They don't have necessarily a desire to define themselves as artists or to function within an art world, but you can also see it among people who definitely define themselves as artists and are finding ways to do their creative work by going to a community and giving the people their cameras and working with those people to shape the imagery that comes out of that type of work, which I think is a very interesting conversation across the levels of photographic practice. Speaker 1 (24:59): In episode Speaker 8 (25:00): 46, I took a trip to costume storage to look at works by gay fashion designers with Adam McFarland, curatorial assistant for fashion arts and textiles. So the last thing in the men's wear that I wanted to look at is a collection of pieces, men's wear pieces by John Bartlett and John Bartlett is both a gay man and a Cincinnati native. And some years ago, I think in the early two thousands, did an exhibition with us and donated quite a bit of both men's wear and women's wear. And so we have this great collection, and one the of the collections that we have represented was essentially kind of inspired by prison. And there was honestly this kind of bondage esque, not in the sense of the Tom Ford leather, but this binding, this controlling. So it's an interesting, he does play a lot on different interpretations, different aesthetics that kind of bridge the gap between gay and straight. Speaker 1 (26:13): Yeah, I remember that exhibition too. It was really interesting because it was, and I think this was heavily influenced by him, if I remember correctly, but all of the male mannequins were lined up in the back of the exhibition and stacked on three tiers. So they were all in rows, very rigid and orderly. And then the female mannequins were all out and more fluidly placed through the gallery that you could kind of walk around. So he was sort of commenting on those differences of the gender fashions and expectations in the sort of layout of the show too. Speaker 8 (26:52): Right. So he is someone that has done that within his designs as Speaker 1 (26:58): Well. I mean, was there anything else you wanted to talk about or anything else we didn't Speaker 8 (27:02): Talk Speaker 1 (27:02): About? Speaker 8 (27:02): Well, in terms of, one of the people that I haven't mentioned that actually is a more recent is Johnny Versace. Oh, yeah, yeah. We should definitely Speaker 1 (27:12): Talk about Versace. Speaker 8 (27:13): So for anyone that doesn't remember this, Johnny Versace was a very openly gay man and was murdered in, oh gosh, mid nineties, mid to late nineties. Speaker 1 (27:25): Yeah, I do not remember exactly. Speaker 8 (27:27): I remember it Speaker 1 (27:28): Happening Speaker 8 (27:29): As a kid. So we do have one Johnny Versace piece, which is mostly in a box, but he was known for very Speaker 1 (27:38): Pretty Speaker 8 (27:38): Garish prints and both for women's wear and men's wear. So we have a dress that's kind of got a tutu skirt on it that has a lot of golden glitz on it, spaghetti straps with rhinestones on it. Speaker 1 (27:56): This is something I just was keep thinking about the idea of taste, and maybe this is coming back to the idea of camp, but Speaker 8 (28:02): The idea of, I Speaker 1 (28:04): Kind of wonder if that's a little bit of part of the sort of gay designer is sort of wanting to push, I get to say what's good taste, right? And the idea of taste and the idea of preference are not that far from each other. Right? Speaker 8 (28:21): Absolutely. The idea Speaker 1 (28:22): Of being told that the thing you Speaker 8 (28:25): Like Speaker 1 (28:26): Is wrong or bad or unnatural or all of these things, and it's just like, well, it's just my taste. And then the Speaker 8 (28:35): Idea of Speaker 1 (28:36): Taste and the way it sort of happens in art can also be oppressive as well. The idea that, well, this is good, this is good taste, obviously. And usually that's code for basically you have enough money, wealth, class, race, whatever, to basically put you in the know of what is good taste and what is bad taste. And so I think sometimes these designers are willingly pushing that idea of what is good taste and challenging it by making these patterns so big and so over the top and being like, well, I have the power now I get to say what's good taste. Speaker 8 (29:19): And they didn't always wield it well, in my opinion, but that's what I love about it. I mean, I kind of love the Speaker 1 (29:28): Idea of just looking at something and being like, oh, that's so tasteless. I love it. And you mentioned John Waters movies earlier. Speaker 8 (29:35): Oh, Speaker 1 (29:36): The Speaker 8 (29:37): Whole Speaker 1 (29:37): Point is Speaker 8 (29:37): Right Speaker 1 (29:39): Of taking Speaker 9 (29:40): Bad Speaker 1 (29:41): Taste and sort Speaker 10 (29:42): Of saying, Speaker 1 (29:42): No, this is what I'm going to, I'm going to celebrate bad taste Speaker 10 (29:47): Because Speaker 1 (29:47): It's also the underlying message is I don't want to be you be the straight world, basically. This is the Speaker 9 (29:59): Unders Speaker 10 (29:59): Skirt for the Versace. Speaker 9 (30:00): Oh, okay. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 1 (30:07): In episode 50, I spoke with Jared O'Rourke, director of Education at Wordplay Cincinnati. We had a conversation about the Chinese mural, wind shoe, Bodhi Sattva of wisdom at a writing table, which led us to more personal topics of religion and family. And he has this sort of magnificent presence with this glowing orb of inspiration behind him. There's so much going on. It's kind of interesting too. We mentioned a little bit about the lotus up in the corner, and to me, and I, again, not an expert, but I do feel like as we move up this picture, we go kind of from earthly to divine as you move up. And there's something about that lotus, which symbolizes rebirth that feels to me a little bit symbolic and maybe less literally in this space. I don't know if it's also above the Speaker 9 (31:07): Sun. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 (31:09): And it's interesting because it does, because the image is worn away in parts. It can be hard to necessarily tell. Also, maybe it does fit into this space in a very literal way. It's just part of the architecture painted on the wall behind it, which could be possible. I don't know. I could be wrong. Speaker 9 (31:27): But Speaker 1 (31:27): The way it also seems to be surrounded by the kind of swirling smoke of the flames here also, I don't know, smoke always feels kind of spiritual to me. It's ethereal and it can't be touched. So it has those qualities. It's probably the reason when you go to a Catholic church, they bring out those incense swing. That's Speaker 9 (31:48): True. That's true. Speaker 1 (31:49): It's got, and it's like getting all your senses going. You've got the Speaker 9 (31:52): Smells, the sounds, the lights. That's true. Theater. I mean, I'm going strictly by movies that I've watched. I was not raised Catholic, but I see what you're saying. Oh, neither was Speaker 1 (32:02): I. Speaker 9 (32:02): Yeah, I know that's probably not right for me to say in Cincinnati that I was not raised Catholic, but Speaker 1 (32:08): That's why that's sort of part of my obsession with Catholicism is that it was exotic. I went to a rather Spartan Southern Baptist church that was like decor was minimal. And then I go to this a Catholic church, I'm like, they have paintings. They have Speaker 9 (32:26): Sculptures. Huge. This is amazing. Why don't we go here? There's art. It's so funny. Was raised, I'm not one now, but I was raised Jehovah's Witness and someone I dated a while. We went to the memorial. Speaker 1 (32:38): I would go every Speaker 9 (32:38): Year because makes my mother happy. It's honoring Christ's death is what it is. Oh, Speaker 1 (32:43): Okay. Speaker 9 (32:44): And and the person I went with was very much like, this is Catholicism, which I never Speaker 1 (32:51): Went to a Catholic Speaker 9 (32:53): Church before, I think because there was the drinking of the wine and the taking of the wafers, but not everybody did it because Jehovah's Witnesses only believe a certain number go to heaven and the rest will be resurrected on earth. That's their belief. I was just Speaker 1 (33:08): Listening Speaker 9 (33:08): To Speaker 1 (33:09): Somebody discuss Jehovah's Witness services, and I didn't really realized I knew nothing about them. I'd never been to one. I misunderstood a lot, and I was just like, oh. Speaker 9 (33:19): And Speaker 1 (33:20): I think, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but they were saying that it's kind of very orderly. It is. It's kind of very organized and almost, it's not super, it's certainly not that kind of passionate, maybe. No, the Speaker 9 (33:36): Passionate speaking from the state, no, it's Speaker 1 (33:37): Not right. It's very kind of calm. Speaker 9 (33:40): And it does tend to be that. And what's interesting is that Speaker 1 (33:45): Whatever I Speaker 9 (33:45): Got in Little Rock, Arkansas on a Thursday night or a Sunday, they were Speaker 1 (33:49): Getting in, I don't Speaker 9 (33:50): Know, Brooklyn, where they were getting in California. So it's the same Speaker 1 (33:53): Everywhere. It may not be on the same Speaker 9 (33:55): Day, but yeah, it is the same. Speaker 1 (33:57): Well, that also kind of has a little bit of a tie with, I don't know. I think Catholicism, this also shows what I don't know, because again, I don't know. I didn't grow up with it. Speaker 9 (34:06): There are comparisons because Jehovah's Witnesses, that religion, that kind of teeters on Christianity and Judaism, there's that. Oh, in what way? There's certain things that are very Jewish in tone, so they don't believe in hell. They don't believe in. Well, that's awesome. Why there more people? Speaker 1 (34:24): Well, there's other reasons maybe why they're not. Speaker 9 (34:26): But I always wondered it Speaker 1 (34:27): Was, Speaker 9 (34:28): Well, I mean, there's still a Christian religion. So for example, I mean, sexuality is purely heterosexual. And because it's a religion based on conversion, not everyone is my grandparents or my parents who are very liberal in scope. You know how when you learn to play piano or you get into something right away, you go whole hog, you're really in it. And a lot of the people who convert in tend to be very strict in their thinking when there's really, if you get down to the base of what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, as my grandparents taught me, there's not a lot of strictness of right and wrong. There's choice. Speaker 1 (35:04): But I feel like that kind of goes across the board for in a lot of religions when somebody converts, the people who grow up with it a lot of times are a little more like, well, you can interpret this a lot of different ways. They tend to have a little more even temper about it. And then you have that person who I lived a wild life. Speaker 9 (35:24): Yes. They Speaker 1 (35:24): Tend to be the ones who are very dogmatic about Speaker 9 (35:26): It because it's people Speaker 1 (35:27): Fear of turning to their old ways or Speaker 9 (35:30): Something. Absolutely. Well, I met a kid, not a kid, he's my age back in Florida and several others who were like, oh, I wasn't allowed to go to the circus. And I'm like, what? I'm like, well, I'm screwed because Speaker 1 (35:43): My dad and mom took me to the circus all the Speaker 9 (35:45): Time. That's not a Jehovah's Witness belief. Speaker 1 (35:47): I don't know who told you that. So they were a jehova's witness too. They were former Jehovah's Witness who said they weren't allowed to go to the circus, weren't Speaker 9 (35:53): Allowed to go. And then someone else told me they weren't allowed to eat cotton candy. And I'm like, oh my gosh, my parents have really did a number on me, if that's a real belief because, so I was very fortunate and also coming out as gay, a lot of Jehovah's Witness families, I shouldn't even say a lot. I feel like as a gay man a lot, we feel like they're going to push us away and not talk to us anymore. Speaker 1 (36:15): And Speaker 9 (36:15): I don't have a single family member that doesn't talk to me. So it's all personal choice. Speaker 1 (36:21): Yeah. Well, sorry, we have ignored, okay, sorry. Speaker 9 (36:24): It's okay. We went from 1300 to 2018 in a matter of two minutes, Speaker 1 (36:28): But that's okay. It's okay. That's why we do this. I mean, it's all still about religion. It is. So it's not so off topic. Right. Speaker 9 (36:35): Well, and that's part of the, nonetheless, I mean, if you want to circle it back, that's part of our personal wisdom anyway, is our stories. My story is my experience. My experience was Jehovah's Witness. That was my childhood. Speaker 1 (36:47): And as we're looking at somebody who's about to write and record, and that's something you've hit upon before, is that the importance of that, of sort of writing and of recording our stories? Speaker 9 (37:00): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (37:01): That that's our sense of self. Speaker 9 (37:03): Yeah. Well, and I think that's what I was saying, even was saying earlier when we were just talking in the room, is that we don't know our stories anymore because we don't write them down. I mean, I'm looking at something from 1300, right? Here's a story that has been preserved and 600 years later, it's returned. I mean, that's the importance of art, whether it be visual or written or theatrical. That's how you maintain story Speaker 1 (37:26): Is Speaker 9 (37:26): You put it on paper, you put it on canvas, you put it on stage or whatever it is. And that's why I'm kind of a little bummed that nowadays we tend to forget where we come from and not necessarily Speaker 1 (37:37): Ireland or Speaker 9 (37:39): Any of that, but just something as simple as how did your parents meet? And putting that on paper and remembering that forever, it makes us who we are. Speaker 1 (37:53): And for our final clip from episode 44, I was speaking with artist Brittany Bicker about being a covert stutterer, which brought up a lot of comparisons to coming out. I've used this clip in a past best of episode, so I apologize for being repetitive, but it's a good fit for this episode, and it's one of my favorites. You were probably, so I was thinking about this. You were probably actually the first podcast host. I actually knew in a way, because you were hosting a stutter cast. Speaker 11 (38:29): Yeah, it was a podcast called Stutter Talk. Speaker 1 (38:31): Stutter Talk, okay. Speaker 11 (38:32): Yeah. It was during the time of I was a covert stutter growing up. Speaker 1 (38:39): This is so fascinating. I remember when you told me this and I was Speaker 11 (38:41): Just like, Speaker 1 (38:42): What? I did not understand. First of all, I remember when you said, I'm a stutterer, and I was like, no, you're Speaker 11 (38:47): Not. Well, I could hide it really well. Speaker 1 (38:49): That's so crazy. Speaker 11 (38:50): And I actually just finished up around a speech therapy two weeks ago, Speaker 1 (38:54): So you're still like, so what is, this is so fast. I love this. And that's why I remember when you telling me, oh, I'm hosting this podcast and I'm a guest host, and you'd been on it, and I would listen to it, and I was just so intrigued by it because it was this whole world that I knew nothing about. And the whole, I don't know, it was just a very empowering, I don't know. I thought it was really empowering story Speaker 11 (39:18): To me. Thank I really appreciate that. Speaker 1 (39:19): Yeah. Speaker 11 (39:20): And I think I had just recently, in the past couple of years, a lot of problem, well, a lot of almost inner questions about my identity as a human who speaks, am I a stutter? Am I fluent? You know what I mean? And just straddling both of those worlds. And we had couple therapy sessions with my speech pathologist because it felt so weird. I can be, I'm obviously really fluent right now, and I can be really fluent for months, and then somebody will switch and I will, and I'll be really disfluent. Yeah. For a couple months. So yeah, so stuttering is, it's a cyclical thing. It was something that when I was little, when you stuttered and you see people's reactions or the way that children, or the way that your peers kind of react to, and you get the signal, oh, this is something that I shouldn't do. Speaker 1 (40:22): You Speaker 11 (40:22): Know what I mean? And not necessarily anybody told me, don't do that. It's just those cues that people give you about something about you. You know what I mean? And then you're like, well, this is something I need to not share. So I developed tools of, I became a covert stutter. And there's people out there whose own spouses don't even know that they stutter because they're able to hide it so well. So I would use word substitution if I felt a stutter coming on, and I probably did this with you in my early twenties, if I felt like I was going to stutter on a certain word, I would change the word Speaker 1 (41:02): Which ones are trigger it or Speaker 11 (41:04): For sure. Speaker 1 (41:05): Yeah. Speaker 11 (41:05): Yes. Speaker 1 (41:06): That's so cool. I mean, it's crazy. It's insane. I don't know. And I think at the moment when I was listening to this, I did not understand my sexuality very well. And I think I am a person who I feel like I have no coming out story because I have a million. And actually, I think about listening to that as actually a really important part of me recognizing as you're sitting there saying this stuff about, you recognize when you get these sort of negative feedback from others and that changes how you behave. And it's like that is the queer experience for a lot of people is basically you do something and you're sort of chastised for it, and in ways that people maybe don't even realize they're doing it in these really small ways that are not, for me personally, I don't think I had a ton of people who were really policing my behavior in a way that was super overt or any way, but it was just very subtle Speaker 11 (42:09): For sure. Speaker 1 (42:09): And that changes what you want to put out there in the world. And so it really resonated with me when you were talking about that. I was like, God, I totally understand this. And then even the thing when I remember you telling me, oh, yeah, I'll make myself stutter. Speaker 11 (42:26): That was a way for me too, because even my mom always told me, you're going to grow out of it. You're going to grow out of it. So even when I was in college, I had this idea in my head that I was going to grow out of it. You know what I mean? And I had this moment where I was at work and I was 26, and I was like, holy, I don't know if I can, Speaker 1 (42:47): I do keep it for all audiences. So I appreciate this is Speaker 11 (42:52): I was like, holy cow, I am a grownup and I still do this. And I had that realization that it wasn't going to go away. You know what I mean? So I was like, I have to figure out a way to live with this, because I didn't want to hide it anymore. It was tiring. It's so tiring. Speaker 1 (43:09): Oh my gosh. And that's just, again, it's totally a coming out story in this weird way because that is what everyone describes is the burden of the secret and the burden of, I remember telling somebody here one time, I was like, you know what? The best part about coming out is you can just listen to whatever music you want to. I love that, because I feel like there would definitely be things that was, and it's really strange because I've always been sort of a weirdly flamboyant person in certain aspects, but then I feel like there would be certain things where I was like, I like this, but I don't want to admit that I like this because I think it's way too gay. This song is too gay for me to, and that is a crazy thing. But I really do think about it all the time when I'm just listening to whatever I want. I'm, because it would also be that kind of internal struggle too. I don't think I would have a lot of secret things I listened to. It would just be like, I would remove that from the options almost. Like, well, I can't listen to that. It was too gay. Speaker 1 (44:16): But anyway, I don't even remember what, I just stole the point, but Speaker 11 (44:19): Well, I think it's, and I don't know if you experienced this, so I started teaching at the art Academy last fall, and it was weird to go back there not being, because I was a covert stutter going at the art academy, a student, and now he's going back to the art academy, not a covert, you know what I mean? So it was kind of weird, and it caused me some anxiety to kind have this new identity, even though nobody caress and nobody's thinking about it. But Speaker 1 (44:48): I think that's exactly the same thing with sexuality, because in general, especially when Speaker 11 (44:52): You're Speaker 1 (44:52): Talking about a place that's so progressive and liberal, obviously nobody cares. It's all in your own head. Speaker 11 (45:00): Nobody Speaker 1 (45:00): Actually cares. Speaker 11 (45:01): I was just worried about having a huge block and staring out a word and somebody looking at me being like, what happened to you? Yeah. Were you in an accident or something? Speaker 1 (45:17): I mean, were the pressures of teaching, did that in public speaking make it harder for you, or is it just Speaker 11 (45:25): I think for sure. And I think the idea of going back to a place where it had a different identity, that is the one that I have now. Even though it's not me, even though it's a small part of me, obviously the way that I speak or the way that anybody speaks is a very small part of who they are. I am still having some anxiety about it, and Speaker 1 (45:50): Then that probably, does that make it worse? Does Speaker 11 (45:53): The anxiety? Yeah, of course it does. And when a person decides to not be covert anymore, to not be a covert stutter, they're stuttering increases. Speaker 1 (46:03): Oh, really? Speaker 11 (46:03): Yes. Because it's almost like, yeah, because trying to suppress something Speaker 1 (46:10): For Speaker 11 (46:10): So long that you get skilled at it. You know what I mean? And then once you make the decision to not do that anymore, it kind of has the freedom to be what it is. Speaker 1 (46:23): Yeah. Speaker 11 (46:23): Yeah. Speaker 1 (46:24): It's just impossible for me to not make these parallels constantly with sexuality when Speaker 11 (46:29): You talk about it. Yeah. Well, I was making those same parallels in my speech therapy that I just finished. Speaker 1 (46:35): You Speaker 11 (46:35): Know what I mean? Those same parallels, Speaker 1 (46:39): The experience of it, and as you talk about it, you're just like, oh my God. It resonates so strongly with me in that way. And even the idea of, I think presenting in that sort of covert and not covert and the language of that, and even the way that homophobia creeps in that I have to consciously not be sort of judgmental towards somebody who is super flamboyant, or there's this idea of when you've built in hiding so long into your life that you start to be like, how dare they not hide? I was like, that's almost the idea. I think on some level, and you'll see that kind of judgment come through in a lot of gay men, especially. I think about what they perceive as overly effeminate behavior, but I feel like it's always more about them than it is the other person. It's more about like, oh, for sure. You're just deeply uncomfortable Speaker 12 (47:43): With Speaker 1 (47:43): That side of yourself, Speaker 12 (47:44): And Speaker 1 (47:45): You spent so long trying to hide that, and it's like how much of it you can let out, and it just becomes really fraught. Speaker 12 (47:55): It definitely does. Yeah. Speaker 1 (48:03): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations around the art general. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are No Spectators, the Art of Burning Man. With both phases now open, be a part of a gallery experience on June 30th at 3:00 PM for P T S D Awareness Month, we'll learn about artists who experience trauma and hear from mental health professionals about the therapeutic uses of art. If you were a teacher looking for professional development this summer, sign up for our Summer Teacher Institute on Myths and Mythology, explore myths through the Museum collection, art making workshops, and field trips. This program is open to teachers of any grade level and any discipline. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Music by Lau, and as always, if you enjoy our show, leave us a nice review or rating, or you can also take the survey, which helps us learn more about our listeners@cincinnatiartmuseum.org slash podcast. I'm Russell iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.