Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up 

Speaker 2 (00:00):
On Art 

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Palace. I mean, that's the importance of art, whether it be visual or written or theatrical. That's how you maintain story. Welcome 

Speaker 2 (00:23):
To Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati 

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Art 

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. 

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Here at the Art 

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Jared O'Rourke, director of Education at Word Play Sensei. So you lived in Tampa. Did you come here specifically to work for Word Play or that's what brought you here? 

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yep. I got out of the arts after 15 years, and I took a year of corporate. No, that's not me. So I mean, a long story short, yeah, the job came up. It's a weird coincidence on how everything happened. But yeah, so I just moved up here for the position. 

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Okay. What is exactly your position and what do you do with wordplay? So 

Speaker 1 (01:22):
I'm the Director of Education. A lot of it, because the organization is so new, it's about six years old, it's now over six years old. A lot of it is still being defined, which is kind of the excitement in the fun of it all, but it's creating programming that works for people of Cincinnati going into the public school system. We do a lot with Aiken and Chase and South Avondale and a couple of other schools and working on not so much bringing in what's kind of a box program, which is we create it onsite and we're going to take it to you and it works everywhere. But instead, looking at the school culture, what does the school culture need? So instead creating, we're going to do haikus, I'm just making this up, but haikus, but what will work? What are the haikus about? Well, what does your culture need? What do the students need? What do the teachers need? So taking a box program, but morphing it to fit the culture of the school, or if it's onsite at wordplay, what Cincinnati maybe is needing or what the kids of Cincinnati are needing. So 

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Because I don't do an interview, like a person should do an interview, I should also ask you why, just to explain what wordplay is as well for people who might not know. 

Speaker 1 (02:37):
I mean, if you find out, if you just, what's great about it is I come from a branding world. My degree is in public relations, and just from the title alone, you hear a word play kids and nonprofit, and you pretty much know exactly what it is. It's a good name, right? Yeah, it really is. I mean, it's wordplay, cincy, but we're in Cincy, so we'll just call it wordplay. But what it is, is it's getting kids and in turn, getting adults to love reading, writing, and storytelling, however that pans out. So it may be spoken word, it may be prose, it may be playwriting, it may be comic book writing, however you tell your story. I know for the younger kids who don't write yet or don't write proficiently yet, we're doing puppets. Oh, cool. So we're pushing the storytelling side of it instead of maybe the writing. But I think a lot of people want, whenever people want their kids to improve their reading, they just make them read a book and not realizing that sometimes they have to write it or say it or just tell it. I mean, that's how I did. I come from a world of theater, that's all my world has been until recently. So I learned by reading plays out loud. That was how 

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I read. I didn't read 

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Fiction. I could not, my attention span would go a page or two and I'd fall asleep. So for me, it was speaking it out loud 

Speaker 2 (03:52):
So 

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Everyone just reads comprehends things differently. 

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's interesting. I was thinking about, I was at a conference one time, a comic book conference actually, and they were talking about how young children read picture books and basically the way that pictures are sort of dropped very suddenly from our reading experiences, which is really interesting. I had never really thought about that. But we have this, you grow up 

Speaker 1 (04:24):
With 

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Books being words and pictures together, and then at a certain point you just suddenly drop it and you're expected to just let that go really quickly. 

Speaker 1 (04:37):
I don't have any science behind what I'm about to say. 

Speaker 2 (04:40):
That's what the show is found on. This is just me just conjecture. 

Speaker 1 (04:44):
It's almost like we think it's too kitty, so we have to get rid of the pictures. I think comic books are actually very wonderful for kids to read, for adults to read, because you have to almost piece things together that are missing. I mean, there you just have to, it's like the far side comics. Do you remember the far side comics? Is that sometimes you had to read the joke and then you had to look at the picture sometimes for a long time to actually get the joke? Well, yeah, get 

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Them good comic books. I would say that's a difference between maybe, and I don't want, I am generalizing also here, but a lot of say children's story books are written first and then illustrated second, and so the story ultimately can be read and understood by itself. 

Speaker 1 (05:31):
Whereas 

Speaker 2 (05:31):
A lot of comic books are created with the thought in mind that the pictures are doing one part of the job and the words are doing another part of the job. And so they really do need to be working together fluidly to kind of create this whole, and you remove one from the equation and it 

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Doesn't really work anymore. 

Speaker 2 (05:51):
But, and on our side, coming from art education, we think a lot about visual literacy. It's a different type of literacy. And so I think those types of things, comic books and picture books and things, to me, those really do help a person develop a visual literacy as well. And that's really important to kind of understand what you're looking at and why it's doing what it's doing. I mean, you come from PR 

Speaker 1 (06:18):
And 

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Understanding how advertising is doing the job it's doing. It's a way to kind of look at things and go, 

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Oh, 

Speaker 2 (06:26):
I know how they're manipulating me right now. Well, I mean, 

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Even to go even further into it, my true history has been in theater and producing. That was how I made my living since I've been 21 years old. So theater is really not much far off from comic books in that sense, or the children's books in that sense is that there's words on a page, but what do they look like? Comes later 

Speaker 2 (06:49):
That 

Speaker 1 (06:49):
Comes. So I guess I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say, but I'm sitting here thinking, I'm like, wow, that's a connection between theater and Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Absolutely. It's somebody interpreting those words into something visual as well. 

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Absolutely. And 

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Something that's not, I mean, theater is even bigger in the sense that you have, there is a visual component and the director is setting up these sort of pictures constantly with blocking and sets and everything. And then there's also the aspect of performance and that coming into it as well. So there's so many more layers of 

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Interpretation. Well, and much like comic books, what's on the page doesn't always make sense until someone 

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Draws the picture. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, sometimes it can be really strange to read a script and just go like, wait, I don't quite understand it. If you don't have the right tone in your head, you miss something and you just didn't quite put it together. And then you hear somebody who really gets it and they say it, right? You go, oh, now I understand what this is about. But yeah, it can be weird just to divorce that performance if you're not, or if the actors in your head are doing a kind of bad job. 

Speaker 1 (07:59):
And that's happened too. 

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Then in all situations, my head actors aren't doing good. Oh, 

Speaker 1 (08:05):
My head actors are their own thing, 

Speaker 2 (08:08):
So that's cool. So you're doing a lot of different projects in schools, and you have the space. Do you still have a space where people can go right, 

Speaker 1 (08:20):
For 

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Afterschool projects? 

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, it's in Northside. It's on Hamilton and Blue Rock. We do, well, it's about to start. So I've only been here 10 months, and they were doing an afterschool program, which basically was turning into homework help understandably. 

Speaker 1 (08:37):
And so what we were trying to do for this upcoming year is kind stray away from homework, helping go back into writing in different styles. So what we're having during the week is we'll have a playwriting class one night, a comic book, I'm calling it comic book writing, but it's really comic book storytelling is the way I look at it. And then writing for activism, that one's called human rights writing for a change, writing for persuasive to persuade. And then on Saturday we have the sensei scribes, which they're all over the city. I got here and I had to go to so many festivals that they were performing at, which is a spoken word group. And then we have two for elementary. One is about puppets for the younger ones, they create their own puppets. They learn to tell stories through their puppets. And then one called my memoir, which is something I'm big about, is that I find that kids don't really honor their history, and so they don't really understand their present and they're having a hard time projecting their future, if that makes sense. So my memoir is kind of giving writing prompts to help interview your past respect where you are, where do you want to go and just help, not make decisions, but help give it some kind of idea, some kind of picture in front of you that you can look at. 

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Why do you think that is? Why do you think kids don't think about their past? 

Speaker 1 (09:58):
I don't know, but it's something that I've noticed. I don't know why. I think maybe, you know what, maybe I do. So I'm from a completely different generation than these kids, and I don't know how my parents met. 

Speaker 2 (10:08):
They've 

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Been together 45 years. I've never heard the story of how they met. And I come from, my mother is Canadian, my dad is a Texan, and accents galore, I'm telling you. But my dad comes from my last, so it's a very strong Irish background. So there's this storytelling progressing forward, and I don't know what's happened. I don't know if it's the generation they come from that the men don't want to tell. I don't know. I'm making this up, but the men don't want to tell stories of weakness or stories of when they, I don't know. But I know I myself don't know my parents' story. And as I talk to kids, they don't know 

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Their 

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Parents' story. And I think that's actually kind of not a great thing that's happening. And as I get older, and now that I'm almost 40 next year, I want to know my parents' story. 

Speaker 2 (11:02):
And 

Speaker 1 (11:02):
My grandparents, three of them have passed away. And I want to know, I'm like, man, I wish I asked them more questions. I wish I knew more. And I think at nine you don't appreciate it. But when you're 30, those stories will mean something. And as I get older, I start to respect my Canadian background, or the Irish background, or the fact that I'm from Arkansas. I start to get more and more proud of where I personally come from. So I like other stories. 

Speaker 2 (11:30):
One of our curators is Canadian, and we always joke about her innate canad and to detect when a celebrity is Canadian. And so do you have half Kade? Do you? 

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Well, it gets confusing. Some of my family is from Wisconsin, so Oh, that's true. Thats it tends to blend. Yeah, there's certain words, but I will tell you, my mother, her accent, my family lives in Arkansas now, and my mother's accent has kind of gone away, but when her friends come down, she's like, oh yeah, ya and my, oh, dad has the deepest Texas accent. It's crazy. I come from two very different families, 

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Very different. Did those two competing accents though force you into sort of just trying to, did you sort of conform to a kind of neutral Midwestern e TV 

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Accent? I think so. I don't know exactly. I don't have a strong accent in either direction. I do say a lot and I do say y'all a lot, but my brother has, I like that combo though. That's great. 

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Having both an A and 

Speaker 1 (12:39):
A y'all. I do say a and y'all, but my brother has a deep, 

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Really deep accent. 

Speaker 1 (12:47):
And I mean, 

Speaker 2 (12:48):
I love the 

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Southern accent. It's very relaxing and calming, but it's not always the brightest sounding accent. So my brother has this doctorate degree and 

Speaker 2 (12:57):
He always has this really 

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Deep down here accent. It's kind of funny. Yeah, no, it's 

Speaker 2 (13:02):
A terrible thing we do, which is basically stereotype that accent as we do stupid. If I'm telling a story and sometimes I'm telling a story and there's somebody who I want to show is stupid in the story, I will 

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Totally give them. It's so true. The southern accent, whether they had one or not, my brother has more degrees than I've got. How terrible is that? Yeah, it's horrible. I know. It's a 

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Meanest thing we 

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Do is, and my dad has one of the deepest accents I have ever heard for a Texas accent, but hands down, one of the smartest men I have in my life, hands down. 

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, and I guess that's also sort of the power of narrative and stories is that that's what basically we've, we've been taught via shorthand through television and everything. Is that like, oh, well this is the country bumpkin 

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Character. 

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Right, 

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Exactly. 

Speaker 2 (13:49):
That's how we sort of show a person's like, oh, they're not so bright, 

Speaker 1 (13:54):
But it has nothing to do with anything. 

Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's just like where they grew up, it doesn't make any difference. 

Speaker 1 (13:59):
And I feel bad from Arkansas and Texas. That's where I was raised 

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Primarily. 

Speaker 1 (14:02):
So shame on me. I should know better. Yeah, it's 

Speaker 2 (14:07):
A hard thing to break. I know. Like I said, I would do it probably right now if I was just telling a story, I would easily slip into that accent and just go, you would put on that little character of, it's really funny. There's sort of different voices every once in a while sort of ing like, 

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Why do I do 

Speaker 2 (14:24):
This voice for this person when I'm telling a story and I go, oh, 

Speaker 1 (14:30):
This 

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Is my sort of indignant lady voice. This is 

Speaker 1 (14:33):
My, it's true. 

Speaker 2 (14:34):
I have all these different characters that I run through. Yep, 

Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's totally true. This is my jock voice. This is my, yep, you're right. 

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah. So is there anything else you'd like to let us know about Wordplay or anything 

Speaker 1 (14:47):
You 

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Guys have coming up 

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Or anything like 

Speaker 2 (14:49):
That? 

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Well, I mean we have the classes that I mentioned earlier, but I think one of my favorite things is they do an open mic night. It's about every other month right now working on making it an every month thing. It's focused mainly for teens. Oh, cool. It's all on the website. We have a partnership with Cincinnati Opera for a show in 2020. Right now it's called Girls 2020. I'm not saying that's just what we're calling it because the hundred year anniversary of both the Cincinnati Opera and women voting in America. Oh, wow. So they're using a lot of our young women who we work with and music resource center works with in their Walnut Hills Hills working together with Cincinnati Opera to put that on. And then every time I blink, there's something new. So the kids are writing things that will become the words to music that is written in a way they're partnering with a professional in the field of music. 

Speaker 1 (15:49):
And then playwriting as well, how that, I did a project very, very similar to that in Florida for about 10 years, but I don't go into the sessions because it is all young women. So I tend to think that my presence is actually hindrance not a help. So what's going on there and what their process is, I don't exactly know, but I know they're having lots of conversations and she's taking lots of notes. So I'm kind of excited to see what that will end up as for sure. Well, if you're ready, I thought we could go look at some art in the galleries. Yeah, I'm ready. All 

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Right. Okay. Well, we are going to go out into the galleries and check out a work. I feel like we need to just acknowledge. I feel like I need to acknowledge not as eloquent. Well, this is the good thing is whenever this has happened and we lose a recording, I can say, if you don't like what we're about to say and you think we sound stupid, just know that we were so smart the first time we did it. The first take was flawless. Oh, epic. It was epic. It was brilliant. Right? We didn't know we could be so smart. We were like, am I saying these words? I can't believe it. And so that's the good thing is that whatever we do now, just know that the first take was really amazing. And this is, I'm sorry, you're getting little kind of okay version, but 

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (17:33):
It was my fault. We didn't actually record the first part. This is 

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Not how the world ends. 

Speaker 2 (17:40):
So we are standing, we're not standing anywhere. We're sitting, we're sitting. We're not standing. Anyway. This is how thrown I am. I can't even describe what our bodies are doing. 

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Oh, you're hilarious. I 

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Don't even know where we are anymore. We're in Gallery one 40 though, in the Asian wing, and we are looking at a mural on the wall called Wind Shoe Bodhi sattva of wisdom at a writing table. I mentioned this before, but you weren't, we didn't record it. I said, it's a mural. It's not actually painted on our wall. It was painted on a temple wall that has been taken out and transported to here. Not recently this happened. We acquired it in 1950. I think a lot of those murals from that temple, I had done some research before, have also been kind of spread out around museums around the world. So I'm going to let you describe what we are looking at and try to pretend you don't know anything I told you from the first time, 

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Right? So I'll sound really smart, this go round. I asked questions and now I get to use your answers as my own. Exactly. It's going to be fantastic. So you're going to have to say the word again. What is it, Bodhi 

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Sofa? 

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Are you making it up to or do you 

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Actually No, no, actually know that. 

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Have you ever 

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Seen, you know that Patrick Swayze movie point Break, his character is named Bodhi 

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Sattva in the movie. No, it's not. 

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yes, it 

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Is. It is Bodhi. Safa 

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Bodhi Sattva. 

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah. Are you saying F or V? V Bodhi. Safa. 

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Sattva 

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Sattva. Either 

Speaker 2 (19:21):
The Double T's there, 

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Bodhi Sattva. 

Speaker 2 (19:23):
And we recorded some A S L videos in this gallery. We did different highlights where we're going to put 'em online soon. And our poor interpreter had to spell the word Bodhi sattva out every time. And she had to memorize it because she had to know how to sign it. What 

Speaker 1 (19:43):
You don't know about me, what I have not mentioned is I have an associate's degree in American Sign Language interpreting 

Speaker 2 (19:48):
What? 

Speaker 1 (19:49):
And I would totally want to smack someone if 

Speaker 2 (19:52):
They that word 

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Going, oh my gosh, what did you 

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Say? We said it in the script we gave her, we probably said it five or six times and then we cut it down to the bare minimum of how many times you could spell it. We just felt so bad that we were making hers do it over. And she was just like, okay. And then we would do another take. I think I messed it up that time. And so let's do it again. Okay. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Those interpreters, they got to know a lot of stuff. 

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, anyway, a BofA is an enlightened follower of Buddha. I hate not to make too western of a correlation. It's not probably 100% accurate, but you can think of them as a saint. It's like a Buddhist saint, but it's not. But I mean, 

Speaker 1 (20:41):
They've got the sun around their head while we're at it. 

Speaker 2 (20:44):
I'm sure. I just made somebody very mad by saying that. That's okay. I feel like it helps. If you don't have a sense of the religion, it might help you kind of understand where they stand in that sense of this is the Bodhi Safa of wisdom. So in that same way that there are saints who are the patron saint of this. And so it's this idea of a person who's achieved enlightenment to this place that they're sort of a higher being almost. 

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Right. 

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Anyway, so you were going to describe this for us. 

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Oh yes, I was before 

Speaker 2 (21:17):
We took a major detour. 

Speaker 1 (21:19):
Major detour through a s L, 

Speaker 2 (21:20):
Right? Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Well, the Bodhi Sattva, as I can say, of wisdom sitting at a very ornate table, brush in hand or pen in hand, ready to write something, and then a servant in the down left hand corner, bottom left hand corner. 

Speaker 2 (21:36):
That last time you thought looked like an loompa. It looks exactly like 

Speaker 1 (21:38):
An alpa without the green hair. I'm not going to let you get 

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Away with That's not saying that. 

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Feel free to bring it up. Feel free to bring it up. And I thought he was holding Swiss rolls, but it's probably more like scrolls probably. Yes. I'm going to guess. I mean 1300. I think little Debbie wasn't around yet. And they're loss their loss. I'm 

Speaker 2 (21:56):
So sorry. 

Speaker 1 (21:58):
You can only have so much wisdom without a Swiss roll 

Speaker 2 (22:01):
Or a star crunch or whatever poison want. 

Speaker 1 (22:04):
So we're a little slap happy the second time around. This 

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Is actually probably better for them 

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Around the Bodhi Sattva. I got to keep looking at the word of wisdom's head is the sun. So the fact that you compared it to a saint, even though it may not be a hundred percent accurate comparison is kind of cool because that's usually what I see in art. Well, it's like a halo of 

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Fact time period. It's a halo. 

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's a 

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Thing. And in this case, that 

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Halo isn't necessarily, I don't think you would see that on other Bodhi Safa. This one is pretty specific, I think, to win shoe in this moment. 

Speaker 1 (22:42):
And 

Speaker 2 (22:42):
It's because it is showing this moment of him receiving the kind of divine inspiration for his writing that he is about to do. So we're catching him in this moment. The piece is trying to capture this exact moment of inspiration because his brush is raised, ready to write 

Speaker 1 (23:00):
And he's ready to write because that servant is holding a whole lot of scrolls. 

Speaker 2 (23:04):
We're going to go through a lot this Bodhi 

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Safa has got a lot of ideas, 

Speaker 2 (23:08):
And we see this ink stick down here, the little picture for the water to activate the ink. And so he's kind of got all the parts ready, but this page in front of him is still blank. So we don't have any actual words yet. So we're catching him in this moment of inspiration, which is pretty cool. 

Speaker 1 (23:28):
And then the other thing I think we said in the last time, that was very, I mean, you mentioned about the dolling of colors over time, and maybe there was something in the top right corner. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now don't cut yourself short. You're the one who asked about 

Speaker 1 (23:41):
It. I did. Did you 

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Asked about the doll, and I don't know if, I'm assuming that these colors were at one time a little bit brighter probably, and that they've been worn away by time and by other 

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Elements 

Speaker 2 (23:57):
And things. 

Speaker 1 (23:58):
I'm going to steal what actually you've said before is 

Speaker 2 (24:01):
The fact that when you look at Asian, 

Speaker 1 (24:05):
Oh, not pottery Asian. Well, pottery 

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Or ceramics. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Ceramics. When you look at that, when it's been glazed over and it can actually withstand time, the colors tend to be very bright. Yeah, there's a lot of 

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Crisp, bright colors. And Chinese art, that horse I was mentioning that's kind of nearby in a room is covered in super bright colors. The glazes are bright blue and yellow and stuff. So just in those things that we can see that have survived time, I think it's safe to assume that probably we know that a lot of Chinese art is very colorful and bright, and I think it's a good safe assumption that just a lot of these colors are worn down, that when I look at his robes, I can assume that probably that used to be very bright white in sections and very bright green in other sections. So yeah. 

Speaker 1 (24:54):
What's funny though, I'm going to say this because the last time I said this, servant's eyes were closed and now it looks like they're open. I can't tell. Oh, you know what? It looks like he's looking up, looking up. Think I was like the bottom looks like the eyelash, like a closed eyelash. 

Speaker 2 (25:08):
No, I think you're correct. He is looking up, I think that's his pupil that we're kind of seeing at the top there of the eye, looking up at wind shoe and wind shoe's looking down at his page. But his eyes are kind of narrowly focused. He's not sort of again, and see, it pays to look at things 

Speaker 1 (25:28):
More than once. 

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Right. I'm 

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Telling you, it definitely pays to not push play on your recorder. I did not see that the first time. 

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Now you're going to sound so much smarter. I totally am. Well, we had talked a little bit about comparing the renaissance again, just talking about that. Another thing we had mentioned was the sense of perspective, which is also really different in a lot of Asian arts. And you'll see that this is a great example of that sort of isometric view where things don't recede, don't get smaller as they go further back into space. So it's a different kind of idea of space. And also we have this servant who is much, much smaller than wind shoe. And I don't know if that's meant to be literal. I assume it would not be meant, I assume wind shoe was supposed to be the same roughly person sized. And we're just sort of meant to understand that wind shoe is of greater importance in this scene. And so it gets to be bigger in the scene. And the servant is just very close to an actual person's size, really, if we standing there 

Speaker 1 (26:43):
Despite his oompapa look. 

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, he does have kind of an orangeish skin that does have an oompapa quality. I'm just 

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Telling you. 

Speaker 2 (26:52):
So now the last time I asked you to come up with three words, because you, you're from word play, 

Speaker 1 (27:01):
So let's play with words and I don't have to think as hard this time. You 

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Don't have to think of as hard. You've already got them right there. So what were the three words you came up with to describe this piece? 

Speaker 1 (27:11):
So at first I said focused and peaceful. 

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Why did you say 

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Focused? I say focused because we're talking about, okay, I'm looking at the word again. Bod 

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Bodhi. Bodhi 

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Sattva 

Speaker 2 (27:25):
And mean. By the way, I'm saying that as if I am absolute 

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Authority. You know what? If we both say it the same way, no one will 

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Probably, I'm the experts, right? I'm sure that's not right either. It's just like everyone should give themselves a break the way. 

Speaker 1 (27:38):
When I dealt with kids, I just said, whenever they didn't know how to say a 

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Word, they would look at me. I'm like, I don't know. Say it either. Just say it the way 

Speaker 1 (27:44):
You think and I'm going to buy it. No, I was saying focused also because there's a wisdom aspect about the person, the large person, and I said focused because he's about to write down words. And I think if you're in the midst of wisdom and you're about to write down your own wisdom, you're going to be focused. I say peaceful because I don't know why, but a lot of Asian art does tend to have a peaceful quality about it. And I said earlier, despite the fact that the sun, the sun's a bit raging. The sun has definitely got some anger to it, but peaceful. And then I hesitated on saying the word huge, but huge is just the third word, just because the size of the piece in general is really massive, especially in comparison to the rest of the room. 

Speaker 2 (28:33):
And 

Speaker 1 (28:34):
That scale is 

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Not, and I don't think you need to feel guilty about pointing out at scale because 

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I 

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Think it 

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Is a 

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Big 

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Part of the piece. 

Speaker 2 (28:43):
And it's an important, I mentioned this came from a temple. So this is a part of religious architecture essentially. And when you go into a cathedral, the scale is huge and it's meant to have a humbling effect on you. You're meant to sort of understand that there are things bigger than you. And so I think that's the point here. I think that scale is a big part. Oh, big 

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Part of see what you did there. 

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Oh yeah. Of what we're supposed to get from this. And the fact that we talked about how the servant is human scale, and if you think about this, he's also closer to the floor like we are. So it's kind of easier to identify with him, with him. And then we kind of look up more to wind shoe. And he has this sort of magnificent presence with this glowing orb of inspiration behind him. It's like there's so much going on. It's kind of interesting too. Mentioned a little bit about the lotus up in the corner. And I, to me, and I, again, not an expert, but I do feel like as we move up this picture, we go kind of from earthly to divine as you move up. And there's something about that lotus, which symbolizes rebirth. That feels to me a little bit symbolic and maybe less literally in this space. I don't know if it, 

Speaker 1 (30:10):
It's also above the sun. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Exactly. And it's interesting because it does, because the image is worn away in parts. It can be hard to necessarily tell. Also, maybe it does fit into this space in a very literal way. It's just part of the architecture is painted on the wall behind it, which could be possible. I don't know. I could be wrong. 

Speaker 1 (30:32):
But 

Speaker 2 (30:32):
The way it also seems to be surrounded by the kind of swirling smoke of the flames here also, I don't know, smoke always feels kind of spiritual to me. It's ethereal and it can't be touched. So it has those qualities. It's probably the reason when you go to a Catholic church, they bring out those incense swingers. 

Speaker 1 (30:54):
That's true. 

Speaker 2 (30:54):
It's true. It's like getting all your senses going. You've 

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Got the smells, the sounds, the lights. That's true. Theater. I mean, I'm going strictly by movies that I've watched. I was not raised Catholic, but I see what you're saying. 

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, neither was I. 

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, I know that's probably not right for me to say in Cincinnati that I was not raised Catholic. 

Speaker 2 (31:12):
But 

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (31:14):
No, that's my part of my obsession with Catholicism is that it was exotic. I went to a rather Spartan Southern Baptist church that was like decor was minimal. 

Speaker 1 (31:29):
And 

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Then I go to this a Catholic church, I'm like, they have paintings. 

Speaker 1 (31:32):
They have sculptures. Huge. This is amazing. Why don't we go here? There's art. It's so funny. 

Speaker 2 (31:37):
I was 

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Raised, I'm not one now, but I was raised Jehovah's Witness and someone I dated a while. We went to the memorial. 

Speaker 2 (31:44):
I would go 

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Every year because it makes my mother happy. It's honoring Christ's death is what it is. Oh, okay. And and the person I went with was very much like, this is Catholicism, 

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Which I never went to 

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Catholic church before, I think because there was the drinking of the wine and the taking of the wafers. But not everybody did it because Jehovah's Witnesses only believe a certain number go to heaven and the rest will be resurrected on earth. That was their belief. I 

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Was just listening to somebody discuss Jehovah's Witness services, and I didn't really, I realized I knew nothing about them. I'd never been to one. And I misunderstood a lot. And I was just like, oh. And I think, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but they were saying that it's kind of very orderly. It is. It's kind of very, and almost, it's certainly not that kind of passionate maybe. No, the 

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Passionate speaking from the state. No, 

Speaker 2 (32:48):
It's not right. It's very kind of calm. 

Speaker 1 (32:51):
It is. It does tend to be that. And what's interesting is that 

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Whatever I 

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Got in Little Rock, Arkansas on a 

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Thursday 

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Night or a Sunday, 

Speaker 2 (33:01):
They were getting 

Speaker 1 (33:01):
In, I don't know, Brooklyn 

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Or they were 

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Getting in California. So 

Speaker 2 (33:05):
It's the same everywhere. It may not be on the same day, 

Speaker 1 (33:08):
But yeah, it is the same. 

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Well, that also kind of has a little bit of a tie with, I don't know, I think Catholics also shows what I don't know. Right? Again, I don't know. I didn't grow up with it. 

Speaker 1 (33:20):
There are comparisons because Jehovah's Witnesses, that religion, that kind of teeters on Christianity and Judaism, there's that. 

Speaker 2 (33:26):
Oh, in what way? 

Speaker 1 (33:28):
There's certain things that are very Jewish in tone. So they don't believe in hell. They don't believe. Well, that's awesome. 

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Why there more people? 

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Well, 

Speaker 2 (33:38):
There's other reasons maybe why they're not. 

Speaker 1 (33:41):
But I 

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Always wondered, I was just like, 

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Well, I mean there still a Christian religion. So for example, I mean 

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Sexuality 

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Is purely heterosexual. And because it's a religion based on conversion, not everyone is my grandparents or my parents who are very liberal in scope. You know how when you learn to play piano or you get into something right away, you go whole hog, you're really in it. And a lot of the people who convert in tend to be very strict in their thinking when there's really, if you get down to the base of what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, as my grandparents taught me, there's not a lot of strictness of right and wrong. There's choice. 

Speaker 2 (34:20):
But I feel like that kind of goes across the board for in a lot of religions when somebody converts the people who kind of grow up with it a lot of times or a little more like, 

Speaker 1 (34:31):
Well, you 

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Can interpret this a lot of different ways. They tend to have a little more even temper about it. And then you have that person who I lived a wild life and they tend to be the ones who are very dogmatic about it. Fear of turning to the old way. 

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Absolutely. Well, I met a kid, not a kid, he's my age back in Florida and several others who were like, oh, I wasn't allowed to go to the circus. And I'm like, what? I'm like, well, I'm screwed because my dad and mom 

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Took me to the circus 

Speaker 1 (35:03):
All the time. That's not a jehova's witness belief. I don't know 

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Who told you that. So they were a Jehovah's Witness too. They 

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Former Jehova's witness who said they, and they 

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Weren't allowed to go to this, 

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Weren't allowed to go. And then someone else told me they weren't allowed to eat cotton candy. And I'm like, oh my gosh, my parents have really did a number on me. If that's a real belief because, so I was very fortunate and also coming out as gay, a lot of Jehovah's Witness families, I shouldn't even say a lot. I feel like as a gay man a lot, we feel like they're going to push us away and not talk to us anymore. 

Speaker 2 (35:35):
And 

Speaker 1 (35:35):
I don't have a single family member that doesn't talk to me. So it's all personal choice. 

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah. Well, sorry, we have ignored, 

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Okay, sorry. We went from 1300 to 2018 in a matter of two minutes, 

Speaker 2 (35:49):
But that's okay. It's okay. That's why we do this. I mean, it's all still about religion. It is. And so it's not so off topic. 

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Right. Well, and that's part of the, nonetheless, if you want to circle it back, that's part of our personal wisdom anyway, is our stories. My story is my experience. My experience was Jehovah's Witness. That was my childhood. 

Speaker 2 (36:10):
As we're looking at somebody who's about to write and record, and that's something you've hit upon before, is that the importance of that, of sort of writing and of recording our stories? 

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Absolutely. 

Speaker 2 (36:23):
That that's our sense of self. 

Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah. Well, and I think that's what I was saying, even was saying earlier when we were just talking in the room, is that we don't know our stories anymore because we don't write them down. I mean, I'm looking at something from 1300, right? Here's a story that has been preserved and 600 years later it's returned. I mean, that's the importance of art, whether it be visual or written or theatrical. That's how you maintain story 

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Is 

Speaker 1 (36:51):
You put it on paper, you put it on canvas, you put it on stage, or whatever it is. And that's why I'm kind of a little bummed that nowadays we tend to forget where we come from and not necessarily 

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Ireland or 

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Any of that, but just something as simple as how did your parents meet? And putting that on paper and remembering that forever 

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Because 

Speaker 1 (37:12):
It makes us who we are. 

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Well that's a nice point. So I want to thank you for being my guest today. 

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Thank you. And 

Speaker 2 (37:21):
For recording this twice. 

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Absolutely. 

Speaker 2 (37:25):
I think we sounded better the second you time. The second time. We do. Alright. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope that you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. The special exhibition on view right now is Make Way for Ducklings the Art of Robert McCloskey. Join us on September 1st for Family First Saturday from 11:00 AM to 4:00 PM for a full day of free family fun that celebrates Robert McCloskey and his illustrations. Meet authors and illustrators see a puppet show and enjoy hands-on art making starting this year. Family First Saturday will also feature special activities for preschoolers from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Aron Mu by Back Lau. And always Please rate and review us. It always helps others find the show. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.