Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace, I think we would be more successful if we started pamphlets that we handed out to parents about the dangers of art. And then we got all the parents 

Speaker 2 (00:11):
To forbid 

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Their kids. Forbid them kids 

Speaker 2 (00:12):
From coming 

Speaker 1 (00:13):
To the theater. In the museum. The museum, and then they would be here in droves. Wouldn't that be a better plan? Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Carolyn Clifford, community engagement manager at Cincinnati Playhouse in the park movies. When you see your career on film, what irritates you about that? And that's just one of those things is museums are just always stuffy. 

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Right? 

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Everyone has a 

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Bow tie on. 

Speaker 1 (01:09):
That is the representation of a museum is stuffy, so you're like, 

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Whereas ours is dramatic, you would think that working at a playhouse, we'd just walk around crying all the time. Drama all the time, just yelling in the hallways and that it's not 

Speaker 1 (01:24):
No, no. 

Speaker 2 (01:25):
That it's not even, 

Speaker 1 (01:26):
They're like, we can be boring. 

Speaker 2 (01:28):
We are so boring. I think, I can't tell you, many people would come to work for us their first day. They're expected. It's like, oh, you got that big industrial coffee pot in the back and we have a conference room and we work nine 

Speaker 1 (01:42):
To five. They imagine someone busting with a feather and a cigarette holder, and 

Speaker 2 (01:47):
It's just, that is not 

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Just high. 

Speaker 2 (01:49):
And the actors are the same. This is their day job. 

Speaker 1 (01:52):
They come 

Speaker 2 (01:52):
In, they do their job. 

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah. Well, it's, 

Speaker 2 (01:55):
There's not a lot of drama. There's just not, anytime. There's just a little bit of drama, we latch onto it. You're 

Speaker 1 (02:02):
So excited. You're like, finally, 

Speaker 2 (02:05):
We do work 

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Here. This is juicy. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the things too, is actors, I think the ones who are kind of dramatic and misbehave like that just stop getting hired. 

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yes. See, they don't work. Right. 

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Work that gets out pretty quickly. People find out like, oh, they're hard to work with and people don't hire them. 

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Exactly. 

Speaker 1 (02:26):
I mean, they might be a great actor, but it's a big factor. I know when people are hiring for roles, like, oh, well, I don't want to work with this person. 

Speaker 2 (02:34):
And the theater world is small, really small. 

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Coly small. 

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah. So gets around So it gets 

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Around quickly. 

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (02:44):
It gets around quickly. 

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah. It's like a juice again, it's like you said, you latch onto that gossip, so it's like, man, if there's a good story to tell, you are going to 

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Tell it. 

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Right. And it's a business of people who love to tell stories. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Exactly. 

Speaker 1 (03:00):
And they know how to tell them. Well, so be careful. Yeah. So don't be careful about being a nightmare. You were just mentioning before we got up here that you were from Chicago. 

Speaker 2 (03:11):
I am. 

Speaker 1 (03:11):
So you can handle the cold. 

Speaker 2 (03:13):
I can deal. Well, I grew up in New Orleans, so 18 years in New Orleans and then college through the beginning of my career in Chicago, I had to buy socks. 

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Wait, wait, wait, wait. You didn't have 

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Socks. I had little athlete, the 

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Anal 

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Socks. That's all I had. 

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Because that's all you need in New Orleans. 

Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's all. If you even need that. Wow. Was, 

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I didn't know this about, it was a big New Orleans that you, I 

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Mean, the coldest, it gets there and there are freak days, 

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Right. 

Speaker 2 (03:43):
They'll cancel school if it's under 40 though. 

Speaker 1 (03:46):
That's hilarious. They're just like, nobody can deal with this. No, we can't. This is impossible. 

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, a lot of our house didn't have heat because we didn't really need it, and I lived on a swamp house swamp, so we just didn't have a lot. So things froze really quickly and easily. There was so much water and humidity. 

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Oh yeah. 

Speaker 2 (04:08):
So yeah, my first year in Chicago was a shock, but I survived. Survived it. Now I brag about. 

Speaker 1 (04:17):
So had you before that been anywhere to see a lot of snowfall? Or had you just, 

Speaker 2 (04:25):
My aunt has lived in Fort Thomas my entire life. 

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh, okay. 

Speaker 2 (04:28):
And we came up for either Thanksgiving or Christmas around that time. And I would always pray for snow 

Speaker 1 (04:34):
And 

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Never, never, never. Not once. 

Speaker 1 (04:37):
We're pretty inconsistent 

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Around here. And she'd always like maybe this 

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Year 

Speaker 2 (04:41):
And it never happened. 

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Well, that's the thing about, I was just here, we have a lot of people from all over who've come here to work. So we have lots of different people, a lot of people from north and a lot of people from the south. And it is one of the things about Cincinnati is everyone gripes about the weather constantly. Oh, 

Speaker 2 (04:59):
It's insane. No one is ever happy about the weather. 

Speaker 1 (05:02):
And it's actually pretty much always kind of just, it's kind of like, okay. It's pretty neutral. We have relatively neutral winters, relatively neutral summers. Sure, it gets hotter and colder, but it is never as hot as it is in the south, and it's never as cold as it is in the north. So it's like, why are we, the 

Speaker 2 (05:25):
One big weather thing that I will say that I have learned about being on a hill, lightning and thunder, you feel more and you see more. Really, our first big storm here, and I live in Evanston, up on a hill a little bit. I asked my husband, I was like, is it just me or is the thunder louder here? Is the lightning brighter here? 

Speaker 1 (05:49):
And 

Speaker 2 (05:49):
He's like, no, I notice it all the time. And then being at the playhouse on the hill, every time there's a storm, I think I just feel it more 

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Out. So yeah, I wonder if we do have kind of extreme thunder and lightning that we're just all, 

Speaker 2 (06:04):
I just think it's just because we're higher up. We're closer to the sky. I don't know. I'm not a scientist 

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Clearly. I guess we are closer. We are higher up now. This is me just guessing about the earth. Here's stuff I don't know about. Let me just talk for a second about stuff I don't actually know about. But yeah, I mean, I guess obviously we would be higher up than New Orleans, way higher up than New Orleans. I guess Chicago with the lake, 

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Is 

Speaker 1 (06:31):
It lower 

Speaker 2 (06:32):
The lake and maybe all the buildings? I don't know. 

Speaker 1 (06:34):
I really don't know the elevation of Chicago. It's sea level. I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (06:38):
I just never noticed it in a dramatic way. Like Saturday, our whole house lit up with that lightning and thunder. 

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Do you like it at all or is it always scary? 

Speaker 2 (06:52):
I think I'm getting used to it. 

Speaker 1 (06:54):
See, I kind of like it. I like storms. I think they're kind of fun, I guess because I've lived through enough of them that I know nothing bad is going to happen 

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Generally. See, and I'm going to get dramatic here. I'm a Katrina survivor, so it's like the opposite situation. 

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah. It's like a 

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Freaky, 

Speaker 1 (07:11):
The worst thing that happens here is a tree falls, a tree falls in a car. I mean, occasionally you see some crazy tree falls on a house, and I mean, obviously something bad can happen, but 

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Being below sea level of storm always meant flooding of some sort always. 

Speaker 1 (07:27):
And of course that can happen, but it's just so much less likely. 

Speaker 2 (07:33):
So New Orleans, we had a lot of hurricanes my whole life. We evacuated 12 times in the 18 years that we lived there, and then only one of them hit. But ever since that one hit, the whole storm situation is much different for me. Wow. 

Speaker 1 (07:47):
So did Katrina, how long did you stay in New Orleans after that? 

Speaker 2 (07:52):
So I was still in high school. I was a junior when it happened. Oh, you're a baby. Yeah, I'm young. And I actually came up here to stay with my aunt for a little while and then settled in Louisville for about six months. Mom and I moved back to New Orleans, so I went to a special performing arts high school there. And I did some acting and dance professionally. So it was really hard to have that career somewhere else. So I went back, I graduated with my class and went on to college, but they did not stay after that. We were in an apartment and mom and dad lived separate. 

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Okay, so that pretty much was part of what got you out of the city in some way. 

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yes, 100%. Well, 

Speaker 1 (08:34):
And just that you were going to college 

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Too. Yeah, it 

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Was time too. Yeah, it was sort of at a time in your life, 

Speaker 2 (08:38):
But it also just changed what I wanted out 

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Of 

Speaker 2 (08:41):
My life. I was thought I would be happy being a performer. Going through that experience is what got me honestly into community art at all. So even though I didn't realize that was the trajectory I was going to be on at 18, it changed my whole outlook on what I wanted out of my career and what I wanted out of art 

Speaker 1 (09:03):
And 

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Theater in general. 

Speaker 1 (09:05):
How did you end up at Playhouse? 

Speaker 2 (09:08):
I worked on a grant for about three and a half years that was tasked with bringing the arts to rural Illinois. So I was in counties that either had no artistic programming or very little, 

Speaker 1 (09:23):
And 

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Our job was to go in and build a program that could sustain or go in and give an experience. And I was there about three and a half years and the grant ended, the money ran out, 

Speaker 1 (09:37):
And 

Speaker 2 (09:38):
I just started applying for jobs. I was at the University of Louisville working with the African-American Theater Program 

Speaker 1 (09:44):
For 

Speaker 2 (09:44):
About six months when I met my boss, Danielle, who's the director of education, and she said, we just got to talking about community engagement and what that meant. I didn't know she was hiring. She didn't know that I might be looking. I was actually very happy at U of L, but she said, I'm going to send you an email after this. Can I have your personal email address? And I was like, okay. And it kind of all snowballed from there. And that happened in November, and I was working at the Playhouse by February 8th. 

Speaker 1 (10:16):
I feel like it's an interesting challenge to be community engagement with the theater since it's sort of something you have to go to. And I guess we have the same experience in a way of how do we bring the museum to people or how do we bring these types of experiences to people? And I think we maybe have a little bit easier time of it because we can take reproductions and it's not terribly different. I mean, we of course always would rather be looking at the real thing and there's so much more detail and things get lost in a reproduction. But you can still look at art with people not in the museum. How do you engage with people outside of the theater? 

Speaker 2 (11:02):
We do have touring shows that go out into the community in community centers, but they're structured for families and kids. They're 45 minutes to an hour. They are professional. We bring in our professional designers, we have our professional acting interns that do them. They're great quality. That's one of my programs. But actually that's why we started the the Grid program because two things were happening. One Arts Wave fantastically knows that we need to get young professionals involved. And we at the Playhouse said, yeah, sure, we can bring them in. We can have some event with beer and wine, which is great, and we know that that attracts people, but what can we do to turn the tables on them and make them the art makers? 

Speaker 1 (11:43):
And 

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Also make them say, now that I've experienced this and done this and thought, and then hopefully bring them into our doors, 

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Let them have a theatrical experience and then let them see one so that they have a connection to it before just sitting down and having a passive experience at the theater, because that's what we all want to avoid. That's the trend that we notice in the millennial generation is we are experiential. So how can we give an experiential moment without it just being reading more in the program? I mean, do you know what I'm trying to say here? So we do it in many different facets, but the the Grid program is the one that we're trying 

Speaker 1 (12:31):
To 

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Go to where they're going, instead of trying to get them up the hill, we're going to a bar. We're trying to have an intimate, fun art making experience. And for most of them, it's a first time. It's a first time getting up in front of a mic. So we tried to create programming that was relaxing in a way. You know what I mean? That was not horrifying. We're not going to put a spotlight on you and ask you to read Hamlet 

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Or, yeah, I think so. Tell people a little bit about 

Speaker 2 (13:06):
What 

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Those different activities are. 

Speaker 2 (13:08):
So we have three different types of programs with Off the Grid. We are partnering exclusively with Mount Adams Pavilion. And one of the reasons we decided to do that as well was to bring young people back to Mount Adams, which they're there on a Saturday night, but how do we get 'em back on a Wednesday? 

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah. Well, and I guess it's smart too because there are people who will already go that far. They're already going to go here, they're already comfortable going here. So now we just need to get them over just 

Speaker 2 (13:36):
A block away. We want to build up our neighborhood. I love being in Mount Adams. So we've been working with the Matt Adams Pavilion to bring, we do a story slam monthly with different topics on theme, and we don't bring in any professional storytellers. So the difference between our story event and the other, we have some amazing storytelling events here in Cincinnati, but the difference is we don't have professional storytellers and we're telling short personal stories that they're writing and they're telling half the time people aren't writing. They're getting up and just talking for five to 10 minutes. And we try to keep the themes loose and fun. And then we also do a Lip Sync Battle 

Speaker 1 (14:23):
Weekly, 

Speaker 2 (14:24):
I mean, monthly, excuse me. And that one is probably the most crazy. We have a lot of fun with that one. And then finally, we are doing something called Live Action Role Playing, which is probably our most traditional theatrical experience. We hire a couple of actors, usually two that are on stage with you. We give you a script and a sticker, and the sticker says who you are. The script is highlighted so that, and you get a scene in one of your favorite sci-fi TV shows. We recently did Dr. Who Christmas Carol, and we try and treat it like a big nerd party. 

Speaker 1 (15:05):
It's a 

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Big fan party. 

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, I noticed all of the things you had chosen for that we're all sci-fi, and I was like, are you targeting a certain type of individual here? 

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Well, a little bit, but also it was what I knew and what I loved. So it was like we're trying to be target different groups. We don't expect everyone to come to every type of event. Different people are drawn to different things. But in the first programming, I guess it was like, oh, that's stuff I understand, so 

Speaker 1 (15:37):
I 

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Can make these events really fun. 

Speaker 1 (15:39):
I saw you said you do Star Trek, but which we're 

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Doing trouble with Tres. Okay. 

Speaker 1 (15:45):
So you're doing original Star Trek 

Speaker 2 (15:46):
This year? Yeah, we're 

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Going to Not Next Generation or 

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Maybe we'll Branch Out, but Trouble With Troubles is my all time favorite episode. And it's fun. I mean, NextGen gets a little deep and I feel like, 

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Well, yeah, although that could be funny. 

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I 

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Think 

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Mean and I say that, but Dr. Christmas Carol was quite dramatic. 

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (16:07):
It is one of the darker Christmas specials with Dr. Who? 

Speaker 1 (16:13):
When is that from, 

Speaker 2 (16:14):
It's Matt Smith. 

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Okay. It's 

Speaker 2 (16:15):
The one with the opera singer and the Fish. And 

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Have I erased this from my memory? 

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Michael Gabin is Scrooge Dump Tore Scrooge 

Speaker 1 (16:26):
For those of you. Oh, I totally remember this now. Okay. It's 

Speaker 2 (16:28):
My, 

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yes, I remember Michael Gaman in it. Okay, got it. Yeah, I was like, sometimes I am not crazy about the Christmas episodes. I don't know, because 

Speaker 2 (16:37):
They're standalone. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (16:39):
I don't know. They're a little too syrupy sometimes, even for me. And 

Speaker 2 (16:46):
I 

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Like when Dr. Who gets kind of syrupy sometimes. 

Speaker 2 (16:52):
See, I love it. That's when I love Dr. Who 

Speaker 1 (16:55):
I hate that I am moved by that Van Gogh episode. I think the Fano episode is beautiful. I know. And I hate it. I hate that it's so corny and it's so dumb, and I can't believe it works. It totally works on me. It is the same thing. I can't hate that when I'm watching Extreme Makeover Home Edition or any show where people are gifted a house or anything. It totally works on me, and I'm totally misty-eyed and sentimental about it, and I hate that. I'm just like, I'm Scrooge in that moment, resisting the spirit of Christmas. No, I am fighting it. I'm just eat 

Speaker 2 (17:40):
The Christmas dark. But 

Speaker 1 (17:41):
I think part of it is obviously the gesture is genuinely nice. There's nothing about that. But there's also, I can always see the puppet master at work. I see the strings, and anytime I see the strings and see how this is designed to tug specifically on my heartstrings, I am like, I hate it. I hate anything where it's obviously manipulative of me. And I know, and it's obvious why, how they are doing 

Speaker 2 (18:08):
That. That's why I am with comedy. I hate it when I can feel them trying to make me laugh. 

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Oh, so that doesn't bother me at all. 

Speaker 2 (18:15):
It drives me nuts. 

Speaker 1 (18:17):
What's an example of that? What do you think? 

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Standup comedy in general. I'm so much more drawn to my bia, who is a storyteller comic. But when it's like joke, set up joke, it bothers me. Or any two broke girls. My in-laws love that show. 

Speaker 1 (18:39):
So just like sitcoms in general? No, I 

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Love sitcoms, 

Speaker 1 (18:42):
But 

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Just like those, 

Speaker 1 (18:42):
That specific show, 

Speaker 2 (18:44):
That specific two and a half men, I can feel the joke coming and they're winking at me. Got it. 

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, totally. 

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Oh, it drives me nuts. 

Speaker 1 (18:55):
Who is the creator of Two and a Half Men and Big Bang Theory? What's his name? Chuck 

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Laurie. 

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Chuck 

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Laurie. Yep. Chuck 

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Laurie. I should know that. So I read this essay by Tom Bissell Biel. I don't know how he pronounces his name, but he wrote this essay all about being on the set of, I can't remember if it was Two and a Half Men or Big Bang Theory, but it really made me respect Chuck Lori as an artist. And I never thought that they would come because I don't like their shows. But it was really interesting because I realized that he understands the world he is working in and he is really good at it. And the way that they use audiences as a testing mechanism was really fascinating. Those live audiences really are important because they figure out what jokes land, what don't, 

Speaker 2 (19:51):
And 

Speaker 1 (19:51):
They basically, there's people become America for them, okay, this is America right there. If they didn't laugh at this right now, we've got to rewrite it. And so they're rewriting stuff on the set all the time. See, 

Speaker 2 (20:07):
And that to me, I don't know, see and my favorite, and so it makes me sound like I hate comedy. My favorite playwright to this day, I do not care how cheesy it is. I don't care. Neil Simon, I love it. It lands every time I can watch Barefoot in the Park. 

Speaker 1 (20:20):
They're great. 

Speaker 2 (20:21):
I mean, it's hilarious to me. I don't think he did that. 

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Oh, no, totally. Do 

Speaker 2 (20:25):
You know what I mean? Those are the funniest jokes. I don't know. 

Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah. I 

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Mean, this is my snotty art person coming in. I 

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Guess I don't, it's probably not how I would work, but I also, I respect that. I guess whenever I realized that there is more thought and concern, oh hundred 

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Percent 

Speaker 1 (20:43):
In something than I maybe gave it credit for, it made me kind of reevaluate. I guess you just think of these things as like, oh, this joke is obvious, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But they also probably, they maybe tried that less obvious joke and realized that, well, only 

Speaker 2 (20:59):
A couple people got that. Only a couple 

Speaker 1 (21:00):
People got it. And so we have to change this 

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Because we have to bring joy to everyone. 

Speaker 1 (21:05):
That's not the goal of this. That kind of stuff lands when you're shooting to a different audience. And it's okay if certain things land, but I think their shows work because you're expected to get a laugh every few seconds. 

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Well, and the brilliance about Big Bang Theory is that they do both. 

Speaker 1 (21:21):
There's 

Speaker 2 (21:21):
A whole other layer of nerdom in that show that when I watch it with my mom, she gets none of the jokes and I'm on the floor, which 

Speaker 1 (21:29):
Is true. See, that is, and think that is something respectable there that it's like it can put all these little cute jokes for nerds in there. And then also, my parents love it too, and I don't think they understand. I don't really watch the show except when I'm at my parents' house and I'll be like, oh, they're from Battlestar and Tactica. I'll be filling them in. And they're just like, oh, that's nice. They don't care. They don't care at all that that's Starbucks. They don't know. So yeah, that is interesting. And I guess it's kind of like The Simpsons have always been like that too, where you can get the joke, you can get the reference in Simpsons, but if you don't, it still functions. 

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Exactly. That's 

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Always been the Simpson's rule of writing basically, is that if you have to understand the reference to get the joke, then it's not working. The joke has to function without 

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Both ways, without 

Speaker 1 (22:18):
The reference. 

Speaker 2 (22:19):
That is truly brilliant. 

Speaker 1 (22:20):
So if you think about it, any Simpsons joke, if you notice, oh, they're imitating something else, and that's funny, but it's also funny for another reason, or it's still funny at the same time because it's doing something else simultaneously. So it's really clever that everyone can come to it where they're at. 

Speaker 2 (22:41):
And that's what we try to do with the LARPing too, because the very first event, I was really worried Buffy was my least one that I wasn't as into as the others. And so I was worried if people come to the Buffy Musical and have never seen a Buffy episode, are we going to lose them automatically? So we try to do both, put enough things in there that are only for people that get it. And then the Dr Who episode, we had 10 people there that had never even seen an episode of Dr. Who, and so I was relieved that they had a good time, a really good time. 

Speaker 1 (23:15):
We do pop culture tours, and we always have somebody who shows up who has never seen the thing we're talking about, and it's always really funny. Like, what? Okay, so why did you, 

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Right. 

Speaker 1 (23:26):
But they're just like, oh, I thought it would be fun. 

Speaker 2 (23:28):
That'd be fun. 

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Okay, so you did a LARPing to the Buffy musical episode? 

Speaker 2 (23:35):
We did, and we did it more like a singalong. So we did some That's what I was 

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Wondering. That seems pretty. 

Speaker 2 (23:40):
So that one felt like bold to ask people on and put up the big screen and had the lyrics scrolling on the bottom, and then acted out the scenes that weren't songs. Although a couple of them we did as a lip sync. So like the Willow and the Willow Romance song under Your Spell. And the audience member got, we call it the Genius, we use signupgenius.com. So we call all the people that sign up Geniuses, and the genius got so into it. She was hilarious. She was laying on the bar seducing our professional actor. It was amazing. It was so great. And I think too, I expected a lot of theater type people to be drawn to these activities, and it's proven to be the opposite. People who don't get that outlet every day are the ones that are coming and letting loose and just having fun. 

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah. Well, it seems like there's enough of a safety net there. 

Speaker 2 (24:39):
That's the goal, 

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Because the average person, people like you and I show offs are not worried about getting up on a stage in front of people. But I think to most people, that is kind of terrifying. And so you have to provide the taking 

Speaker 2 (24:58):
That for them. I'll say too though, the actor that did show up for the LRP was freaked out, 

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Really like, 

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Oh, I have to be good for, 

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Because they were worried that 

Speaker 2 (25:06):
They thought they were performing. Right? 

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Where 

Speaker 2 (25:09):
It's like, no, this is 

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Fun. 

Speaker 2 (25:11):
And then as soon as you start playing and stop performing, it becomes a much more genuine theatrical experience. Because what people forget is that actors spent years and years and years trading themselves to play. 

Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's interesting. I can totally see that too, though. If you're in it, it's just the way, I guess that's not true. I was going to say, I can't really play Pictionary in the same way that maybe somebody else does, but I do have like, okay, this is how I draw for Pictionary. This is how I draw. So I think there are different levels you adjust. But yeah, it's like if you go to karaoke and somebody takes it too seriously, it stops being fun. You are like, tone down. We're just here to have fun. We're not here to, we didn't buy tickets to see you, so chill out. 

Speaker 2 (26:01):
We used to go to karaoke when I was living in Chicago. I lived in Andersonville, and we would go to this drag bar that did karaoke on Wednesday nights for everyone. But the people there were, I never sang because it was their life, 

Speaker 1 (26:17):
And they 

Speaker 2 (26:17):
Could all sing. I mean, they could be on the Voice tomorrow. 

Speaker 1 (26:22):
I did not. This is maybe my thing too. I don't actually doing karaoke with a lot of theater people around, because 

Speaker 2 (26:29):
You're always going to hear Suddenly Seymour Always 

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Or Wicked or Wicked. It's going to be a lot of, yeah, you're going to get a lot of Wicked. Maybe you're a little bit of rent thrown in here and there. It's like I, this is not fun, guys. This is fun. In the middle of a show, 

Speaker 2 (26:50):
But taken out of context, this is just 

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Weird. We're all sitting, I don't know, 

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Why are we singing about AIDS and Death right now over my martini? 

Speaker 1 (27:02):
I don't know. Can we just sing? 

Speaker 2 (27:04):
There is a book going, oh, I don't know any of these songs. I don't know any. Oh, I know that one. 

Speaker 1 (27:08):
And then I try to S piece. And that's why if I try to sing at those places, I get up and I'm like, I'm going to sing whole, I'm singing Courtney Love, and then everyone just looks at me like I am crazy. I'm just screaming up there. But I'm like, this is fun. This is nonsense. And they are taking it. And I'm the person who's basically laughing in church. You do not take our church seriously. You do not take our religion seriously. 

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Which is why I think lip sync is so fun, 

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Because 

Speaker 2 (27:42):
We're not asking you to Well sing it. It's just, 

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Well, yeah, it's, I think it's another, it's even more, I think when I was saying about kind of a safety net, a lot of people have these kind of barriers to performing, and it's like, so karaoke gives you one safety net of the lyrics are right there, but even for some people, then that's too much because that still requires them to sing, and they're not comfortable singing in public. But yeah, lip syncing, 

Speaker 2 (28:10):
And I did not expect people to go as all out as they go. 

Speaker 1 (28:13):
I'm being 

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Like, some people don't. And they come in their regular clothes and they're great and wonderful, and we love having them. Some people with the costumes are, I mean, it's unlike anything I've seen. We had a couple do, baby, it's cold outside the Jessica Simpson and Nick Cliche version in reverse drag. 

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Oh, wow. 

Speaker 2 (28:31):
So she was Nick Cliche and he was Jessica Simpson. 

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah. That's funny. But I think also lip battles have become a pop culture phenomenon right now too. Absolutely. So they're kind of enjoying this moment. 

Speaker 2 (28:48):
People are getting quite artistic. They're going in their own ways with it. 

Speaker 1 (28:51):
That's cool. 

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Some people are going very exactly what they're seeing, but others are just going for it. And then we've kind of opened it up. So we'll have our battle for about an hour, and then afterwards we find that once people have watched it, then they're willing to do it. So we've been doing what we're calling sync or sing. 

Speaker 1 (29:10):
So you can either 

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Karaoke or do a lip sync in an open mic situation. And that's been really fun and goofy. And we did have a wicked 

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Moment, 

Speaker 2 (29:19):
A drag wicked moment, but someone had come and done the Grinch for the December one. 

Speaker 1 (29:24):
He's 

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Like, I'm in green. I can't, we have to do Wicked. And they did it. 

Speaker 1 (29:30):
I like that. Well, I look, 

Speaker 2 (29:32):
I ate grade. It would be a shame 

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Not to do Wicked 

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Right now. And the guy that he pulled up with him had done Nancy Sinatra. So he was in a blonde wig 

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Boots. They were already, 

Speaker 2 (29:43):
He looks at the audience, he goes, I've only heard this song once. Yeah, it was pretty 

Speaker 3 (29:49):
Magical 

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Version of Define Gravity. 

Speaker 3 (29:52):
I think that's the version I would like to hear the most, actually. Somebody who's only heard it once. 

Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, it helps that it's lip sync. Right? 

Speaker 3 (29:58):
You didn't have to say, okay, that's true. I guess. Yeah, I was going out straight to karaoke. But 

Speaker 2 (30:02):
There were times where he'd be standing there and here at the Kristen Chadwick party be like, oh, 

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Oh, whoa, that's me, 

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Me. It ended the guy in green pulled a chair, was on the chair pretending to fly, 

Speaker 3 (30:15):
And 

Speaker 2 (30:16):
He had gotten on his stomach, so it looked like bows in the air. It was quite magical. I'm surprised that the bar didn't, they were not concerned about safety. Neither was I. 

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah. Maybe we shouldn't mention their name. Just in case any inspectors or anything listening, we don't want 'em to get shut down or anything 

Speaker 2 (30:34):
That wouldn't happen. 

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Well, I thought we could go look at some art in the galleries now. I have no idea what we're going to look at. This will be fun. 

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Any community art. 

Speaker 3 (30:52):
So we are looking at a painting right now. We are in Gallery two 10, and this gallery has a very large painting in it that distracts from everything else in this room. So I was admitting, I haven't really looked at this painting that we're about to talk about very much, because I'm always distracted by our giant Hamlet painting over here. But we're going to look at a different theater themed piece. This is the Italian Comedians by Philippe Messier is how I would assume that's pronounced from my high school French. That's beautiful. So you actually said you studied Cedia del ate? 

Speaker 2 (31:42):
I did. I studied a lot of it, and I teach it to little ones. 

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Well, I can be a little one. 

Speaker 2 (31:49):
I teach. So at the Playhouse, we do a summer theater camp, 

Speaker 3 (31:53):
And 

Speaker 2 (31:53):
I teach the movement aspect of it. 

Speaker 3 (31:56):
I should just say here, we also do summer camps. 

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Plug, plug, plug. 

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yeah, I know. I was just like, Hey, look, I don't need anyone competing with my summer camps on here. So pretend I am a child that, let's pretend I am not so knowledgeable about Cedia del ate. Let's pretend that I know about as much as a third grader and my 

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Favorite ones. They're 

Speaker 3 (32:22):
So cute. They are the best. Third graders are great 

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Third, cute third grade doing come media movement was everything to me this summer. 

Speaker 3 (32:30):
So what does that mean? Even what is media movement 

Speaker 2 (32:33):
In Delite traditionally now in this painting? They aren't wearing the masks. And that's actually the first thing I said was 

Speaker 3 (32:39):
I 

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Was really 

Speaker 4 (32:39):
Surprised I weren't wearing a mask. But it is made up of many different stock characters and stock situations so that when the troops would tour all around Europe, anyone could understand it. So they often spoke in gibberish, and then the movement had to inform what was happening in the scene so that the language was not a barrier for enjoyment. 

Speaker 4 (33:03):
And they would wear masks so that people could automatically know that is that character. I know who that is, and I know the types of things that he or she does, except for the two lover characters. They were the only unmasked characters. There was a male and a female lover young. So with that mask, you have to think about what the rest of your body is doing because you no longer have your face as the main way of expressing your emotions and feelings. So when I teach comedian movement, I always start with one of the stock characters is a zany. And that is what we would think of as the comic relief, the crazy one. And comedian is also all about class. So there's the servant class and the masterclass. The zanies are all in the servant class. The most famous zany would be Arno or Harlequin with the diamonds. And we always start with the zany walks and runs. So there's six different walks or runs that they would do in particular situations. And so we start with that with the little ones, and it's so fun. 

Speaker 3 (34:15):
So 

Speaker 4 (34:15):
Some of them, and then the other thing about comedia is all where your center of gravity is. It's like a zany center of gravity is always going to be lower. So they're almost always in a squatting position. And how can you move and walk and run in that way? 

Speaker 3 (34:30):
Why is the center of gravity lower? 

Speaker 4 (34:32):
Because they're servants. So they need 

Speaker 3 (34:34):
To be, they're 

Speaker 4 (34:35):
Physically lower 

Speaker 3 (34:37):
In a kind of position of bowing almost. 

Speaker 4 (34:40):
And they're also, the zanies are known for being sly and cat-like they're the tricksters of the situation. So they're often crawling under things or out things. And I think that that's part of it too. I mean, they jump, right? The 

Speaker 3 (34:54):
Famous 

Speaker 4 (34:55):
Cat jump where their feet come up all the way 

Speaker 3 (34:58):
And 

Speaker 4 (34:58):
Their hands go up. That's a comedian surprise jump, like, Ooh. But all of the movement is informing what that stock character does. So they have almost a vocabulary. It's like language in edia movement is like language. 

Speaker 3 (35:17):
So if you were to look at this, and we haven't actually described it for anyone, what we're looking at, which is important, not here. They can't see it. They're just listening to this. So we should describe what we're looking at, and then I'm curious how you read this scene. I feel like you probably have a little more insight than I would, so I don't know. What do you see? What are you looking at? 

Speaker 4 (35:44):
I see a woman who is sitting and leaning back. She looks exhausted, tired, a man who looks a little lecherous. She's looking down right into her bosom. And then in the back you see someone, oh, another woman who's got some kind of glint in her eye. She's ready to either encourage the situation or in the situation. Yeah, 

Speaker 3 (36:15):
Well, she's in the shadows. 

Speaker 4 (36:16):
She's in the shadows. But I have a feeling that she's about to cause mischief 

Speaker 3 (36:21):
Because of the 

Speaker 4 (36:22):
Look in her eye and the tilt of her shoulder and her head. 

Speaker 3 (36:26):
Well, yeah. So he's looking down at her 

Speaker 4 (36:30):
And he's holding his arm back. And I don't know if that's a physical thing that he's doing to stop himself from what he wants to do. 

Speaker 3 (36:38):
I've never noticed that. 

Speaker 4 (36:41):
And then the woman at the center of the picture with her eyes closed, I mean, she's got a beautiful cushion that she's almost completely, she's either taking a nap, 

Speaker 3 (36:52):
I would assume, and maybe it's like sometimes it is hard to tell, but I would assume you were talking about different classes. Do you think she in the front is from an upper class? 

Speaker 4 (37:01):
Yes, definitely. 

Speaker 3 (37:02):
I would assume so. Just from her dress. 

Speaker 4 (37:04):
From her dress, her hair, 

Speaker 3 (37:05):
That 

Speaker 4 (37:06):
I would say if we were to look at stock characters. Now, this painting is from a later tradition of Edia that came through England in the 17th century 

Speaker 3 (37:16):
And 

Speaker 4 (37:16):
18th century, which I know a little bit less about. It's a little more in the French tradition, but I would say she's probably the Isabella character, the beautiful female lover who always has erased sense of gravity. You can even see as she's reclined, her shoulders are almost like up. 

Speaker 3 (37:35):
You 

Speaker 4 (37:35):
Know what I mean? 

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yeah. She's sleeping in a classy way. She's 

Speaker 4 (37:40):
Sleeping in a classy way. 

Speaker 3 (37:42):
The 

Speaker 4 (37:42):
Balls and the hair and the pink cheeks. 

Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah. She's not just kind of slumped over snoring. But yeah, the lady in the back, in the shadows, she definitely looks like to me, I feel like she is pleased at seeing this sort of juicy scene, enjoying it. She looks like she's a gossip. 

Speaker 4 (38:06):
Yeah. She's either going to go run and tell someone to start something with the situation, or she's going to get involved. 

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Yeah. Yeah. That's what I feel like. Yeah, 

Speaker 4 (38:16):
She's going to walk up and slap him or something. I don't know. 

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Yeah. She's delighted by catching him in this moment. In this 

Speaker 4 (38:21):
Moment. Yeah. 

Speaker 3 (38:23):
She knows what's up. Yeah. I think a lot of people, I don't know. It's funny because probably a lot of kids would look at this and not realize how kind of dirty this painting is. Oh, 

Speaker 4 (38:35):
Yeah. But that's like comedian. That is the comedian thing. So it was quite the challenge to teach comedian to children when I've been doing it for a while now, not just at the Playhouse, but camps and other things in general, because it is very, it's sexually driven. A lot of the characters are, 

Speaker 3 (38:55):
And it's like there comes a point where do we want to have this conversation? 

Speaker 4 (38:59):
Yeah. There are certain set characters that we couldn't even talk about because of the, so the skits that they do are called lots. And so the lots are the scenes that they play out, 

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Which is 

Speaker 4 (39:09):
So dirty now. Kids love the, 

Speaker 3 (39:11):
But is it dirty in a way that's sort of coated? 

Speaker 4 (39:15):
No. So big. It's just really direct. Yeah. The big difference between Edia and the French tradition and some of the restoration style things, it was very direct. It was theater for the people. I mean, it was happening in the streets. And some of the other really famous azis are not sexually dirty, but gross out humor. There's a lot of fart jokes. And one of the most famous ones is a teeth pulling thing with the blood spurting out. So they loved that bass, big comedy. 

Speaker 3 (39:48):
So this is Farley Brothers movies for the Renaissance, basically. Yeah. That's crazy. That's so funny. Yeah. I always feel like if kids only knew how dirty art was half the time, they would just really enjoy it a lot more. I have almost, I'm always very wary of that kind of message where people try to tell you how good for you art is. And we definitely can fall into that trap of this presumption that art is so good for you. You should go to the museum, or you should go to the theater because it's good for you. It just makes it sound so wholesome. And I just want to be like, no, it's dangerous. 

Speaker 4 (40:29):
No, it's not. I always say this though, artists are the original revolutionists, right? 

Speaker 3 (40:34):
It's like, no, this stuff is dangerous. 

Speaker 4 (40:36):
And it was dangerous. 

Speaker 3 (40:38):
We, I think we would be more successful if we started pamphlets that we handed out to parents about the dangers of art. And then we got all the parents to forbid their kids, forbid them kids from coming to the theater, the museum Museum. And then they would be here in droves. Wouldn't that be a better plan? 

Speaker 4 (40:56):
I agree. I mean, there's a lot of stuff, theater stuff happening at this moment where people are like, well, but you come to theater just to sit and enjoy it. It's like, no, that is not how theater started. That is not why we were around. 

Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah. Well, it's, I mean, when you're talking about like, oh, this was theater for the people. I think it's another thing that's really funny is we always assume things in the past were classy. 

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Oh, yeah. 

Speaker 3 (41:25):
And so I think even if somebody were walking through the museum, they saw this, they might think, oh, what a very refined scene or something. But it's like a painting of a sitcom like we were talking about earlier, and you were talking about stock characters and being able to communicate without language. I mean, I feel like you could probably mute a sitcom and get a lot of the jokes. There's some of the physical comedy would still translate. People would come in and you probably would still know who that character was and what their role function was. Right? If you're watching a sitcom and there's a sleazy boss character, they're a sleazy a boss, they don't have to open their mouth. So I think a lot of those traditions still exist. And it is funny to think about how, I don't know, we class things up a bit, 

Speaker 4 (42:20):
Right? In the retelling. No, that was never comedia. Comedia was, and it was always relevant. So even though it was stories that could go all over Europe, there was a character called Capitano, 

Speaker 3 (42:35):
And 

Speaker 4 (42:36):
He was a military captain, but he was constantly getting into, he was a braggart and he was in a masterclass. And so that's a big part of the political aspect of comedian is they would use him to reflect what was happening 

Speaker 3 (42:52):
And 

Speaker 4 (42:53):
How easily that translated to all over the continent. At that time, 

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Since you're saying that a lot of comedian was about class, was it usually, and it sounds like the lower class and the servant class are sort of treated as the comedy characters, but are they sort of poking fun at the upper class always? 

Speaker 4 (43:15):
Right, exactly. So 

Speaker 3 (43:16):
I would assume the audience is probably mostly in that class, 

Speaker 4 (43:19):
Right? So most of the master characters were making big mistakes and were easily manipulated by their servants. I mean, the servants spent the majority of the show manipulating. No, they obviously got in little scrapes, there's a Lai where one of the characters, master character, Pantalone, probably one of the most famous, puts our LA in a bag and it kicks it and all of that. But in the end, our Lao tricks him into the bag. So they were the tricksters and they were smart. 

Speaker 3 (43:55):
The 

Speaker 4 (43:55):
Servant class. They were the smart ones. 

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of 

Speaker 4 (44:00):
Using their guy and wit, 

Speaker 3 (44:04):
Well, that upstairs downstairs thing has always been fun. It's like it's the fun of watching Down Abbey or is watching the difference in these lives and the way they intersect, and how sometimes the servants are more aware of the big picture than Lady Mary or somebody who has a pretty narrow old 

Speaker 4 (44:26):
Lady Mary, 

Speaker 3 (44:28):
Old lady Mary, 

Speaker 4 (44:29):
Poor thing, 

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Who has a very narrow view. They get to see both of it. They go upstairs, they go downstairs. They're invisible in a way too, to everyone. So people talk too freely around them, so they pick things up. 

Speaker 4 (44:43):
Exactly. 

Speaker 3 (44:45):
But yeah, I like that, that I assume that would be the case, that the servants would be sort of almost the heroes in a way of these stories. It's more interesting. It's not very fun to just be like, wow, aren't rich people great. 

Speaker 4 (45:03):
And what they would do, I mean, in the class of actors, they were the servant class. The acting troops weren't well regarded. 

Speaker 3 (45:11):
Oh, absolutely. 

Speaker 4 (45:11):
And they would pack up all of their stuff into a wagon and go from town to town. They didn't live glamorous, beautiful lives. 

Speaker 3 (45:17):
We were talking about that in the episode with the ballet too, and just performers in general, were not held in the kind of high regard that we think of today. To be an actor and to be a movie star is like, oh my gosh, it's so glamorous. But nobody wanted to be the equivalent. That would just be like, oh, they were 

Speaker 4 (45:42):
Probably thought better, worse of than the service. Absolutely. It's like all these people are back. 

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Oh, to be an entertainer, it was just like, Ugh. 

Speaker 4 (45:49):
Yeah. And they would do all of it in the street. 

Speaker 3 (45:52):
They 

Speaker 4 (45:53):
Would set up their stage. Everything happened right there in the street. They weren't invited into the palace until later in the tradition, much later. 

Speaker 3 (46:01):
I guess the only way that still kind of is around as if a kid tells their parents, oh, I'm going to college to be an actor. Right? There's 

Speaker 4 (46:12):
Lots of tears. Are you sure? What's the backup? 

Speaker 3 (46:16):
Right? What's your backup plan? 

Speaker 4 (46:17):
What's the minor? What are minoring in? 

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Everyone's excited when it works out, but when you're, before you go, if you decide on a career in the arts, usually it's like, 

Speaker 4 (46:28):
You sure about that? You sure about 

Speaker 3 (46:30):
That one? Yeah. Well, any other thoughts you have about this painting? 

Speaker 4 (46:36):
I was just looking at the background, and it's clearly daytime because of how light the blue is 

Speaker 3 (46:41):
And how 

Speaker 4 (46:41):
The clouds are fluffy, but it's painted with almost a shadow over it, 

Speaker 3 (46:47):
Which kind of, for me, makes me think about the theater again, because it's the only place where you can have a shadowy sky. Right? 

Speaker 4 (46:54):
Right. 

Speaker 3 (46:55):
It almost is another way, although I don't feel like maybe it doesn't quite feel like a backdrop in that way, but it makes sense that you can do that in theater. You can drop the lighting on the background and focus on the characters in this way. So, although it's kind of funny because I would imagine at the time this was painted lighting wouldn't be that sort of 

Speaker 4 (47:24):
Advanced. 

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Advanced, right? Again, I'm not the theater expert on the history of theater lighting, but 

Speaker 4 (47:31):
Well, I can guarantee that Kedia, they didn't bring their own lights. 

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Right? I mean, you think, I would imagine at this point everything would be fairly evenly lit. It's 

Speaker 4 (47:41):
Lit at all. 

Speaker 3 (47:42):
Yeah. You try to just make sure everyone can be seen, and that's kind of the end of the goal, probably. You don't get to be too much fancier than that, but yeah, that's what it makes me think of at least, is almost that that's just a backdrop that is not in focus. And so that's another interesting way that that could be referencing the theater and not so much that we are watching a real scene and real space with real people. But another hint maybe that this is just a charade. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Speaker 4 (48:19):
Thank you, Russell. I'm just happy to be here. Join us for larp. Check us out since you play.com. 

Speaker 3 (48:25):
Sure. You can plug, I got a plug. 

Speaker 4 (48:28):
They'll kick me out. Why were you there? You spent two hours and you didn't even say the website. 

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are Van Gogh into the Undergrowth Kentucky Renaissance, the Lexington Camera Club, and its community. 1954 to 1974, the book of only Enoch and the Jack Leg Testament, part one, Jack and Eve, and employed a staff art exhibition. For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. Our theme song is Fra Al by Baal Lao. Hey, are you listening on an iPhone? Why not subscribe to our podcast on iTunes? And while you're at it, leave us a nice review. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum. I.