Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace, 

Speaker 2 (00:02):
I was working on this one area of my square, and the archeologist came over and he was like, oh, this is fascinating. You found this wonderful wall, and here you can see this doorway. And then the wall continues on the other side. And I looked down and I said, I have a bunch of rocks in a row. I have a spot where there's no rocks, and then I've got some more rocks. 

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Ainsley Cameron, our new curator of South Asian art, Islamic art and antiquities. So I think it's really weird that you're so nervous about this. 

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, how could I not be? I don't know. It's sort of a bit too 

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Really 

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Too real. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (01:10):
I don't know. So my read on you is that you would be the person who would be so okay with it. 

Speaker 2 (01:18):
I thought I was going to be. 

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I 

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Did. I was like, I can totally do this. I can totally be relaxed. 

Speaker 1 (01:24):
It's all good. I just felt like, oh, she'll be fine. It was really funny when I could tell in your email, there were a lot of questions. I was like, oh, she's nervous about this. She's not comfortable. And I thought, that's so surprising. I don't know. Maybe you strike me as very outgoing and I just thought, but I guess I've learned my lesson a couple of times in a variety of ways that doesn't always translate to everything else. I have friends who are very outgoing, big personalities, but then you put them on a stage and they kind of freeze. 

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, like wallflower style. Yeah. I don't think I have a big personality 

Speaker 1 (02:00):
That you say you don't think. 

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I don't think so. I consider myself to be very shy. Actually, I don't know. A lot of people don't believe me, but it's true. I fight for my shy status. 

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Maybe you've just been reading too many of those lists that are just all about how wonderful introverts are online, and the underlying message is usually what terrible people extroverts 

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Are. Yeah. Maybe that's 

Speaker 1 (02:23):
It. I always read this. I'm just like, I hate this because the message is that basically I am a pile of garbage. I don't mind being on a stage or something. Well, maybe I'll try with you of how did you get here? 

Speaker 2 (02:44):
How did I get here? How long of a story do you want? 

Speaker 1 (02:50):
I can edit it down. Nice. 

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Alright. 

Speaker 1 (02:54):
I don't have anything else on the plan. It's like we'll release it in 12 parts. I mean, that would be 

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Great. The saga continues. 

Speaker 1 (03:01):
I mean, actually, if you could set me up for a whole couple of months and I wouldn't have to record anything else, 

Speaker 2 (03:06):
That would be very useful for you. But I think if we've already covered the fact that I'm nervous to do this, you're probably not going to get that much out of me. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Maybe not. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Okay. So how did I get here? 

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Maybe my question's bad. Maybe I'm the problem. Yeah, I mean, how did you end up here? What's the story of how do you get to this point? And I guess I am interested actually even a little bit further back than just like, well, I was at my last job and then 

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Then this job came up 

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Here. Yeah. I guess I'm interested in how people end up in the careers. They end up, because I know for me, I never in a million years thought that this is what I would do. It's just totally luck and weird, dumb luck and just like, oh, well this happened, and then I started doing that. And then there's just sort of these weird choices you make 

Speaker 2 (04:00):
That you think 

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Are inconsequential and turn out not to be. 

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah. No, I think that's true. And I think that they snowball as you get older too, where it sort of one leads to the next, and it also, 

Speaker 1 (04:10):
It 

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Starts to make sense originally or eventually. And then you realize that yeah, you've been on a path for much longer than you thought you were. 

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, definitely. 

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Okay. So I think for me then, if that's what we're talking about of how I got here, and so this larger, when did the ball start rolling? When I was 15, I think it all started when I was 15. My mom got a job in SSRI Lanka in Colombo, and we moved there and I did all of high school over there. And so that's sort of my first introduction to South Asia. My first introduction to the art and archeology of the region and what got me really excited to follow the career path that I'm on now. 

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Oh, well, I had no idea. 

Speaker 2 (04:57):
See, I'm 

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Glad I asked because that's a way better story than I expected. 

Speaker 2 (05:02):
That's bunch of like I was a freshman, I didn't know what to take. So 

Speaker 1 (05:04):
How old were you when you moved? 

Speaker 2 (05:05):
15. 

Speaker 1 (05:06):
15. So that must have been a pretty big It 

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Was a big deal, yeah. Was 

Speaker 1 (05:11):
That a pretty big culture shock for you or huge. I mean, it just seems like such a point in everyone's life where everyone's a little off balance anyway. 

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's interesting. I think is that my mom was offered the job and turned it down because she was like, I have a 15 year old daughter. I'm not going to do that to her. I'm not going to try to move her. But I said, yes, let's try it. And I sort convinced her this was a great idea. Wouldn't this be interesting? Wouldn't this be amazing opportunity? And then I kind of looked at her and said, where's SSRI Lanka? I had no idea. I think I just wanted to get out of going to the high school. I was supposed to, but I didn't know where I was going to end up. 

Speaker 1 (05:49):
It sounded like an exciting exotic trip. So you were pretty game though for it. 

Speaker 2 (05:53):
I was game. I was definitely game. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (05:56):
What was your high school experience? 

Speaker 2 (05:59):
It was kind of funny. It was small. It was a small, private high school where mainly SSRI, Lankan families would send their kids if they wanted their kids to go to university abroad. So it was following the British system. So I did my O Levels and my A Levels and did all these, I dunno, funny random subjects that you wouldn't have done in North American High school. And it was kind of great. The class sizes were really small. The teachers were not very much older than us, which was kind of weird. They were just sort of recent graduates from university in the UK and could come over and teach at a high school for a couple of years. They were totally unqualified to do that. Some of them were great in case they're listening in case they're listening, of course, they're stalking me on a podcast. Some of them were really, really great. They were just enthusiastic about life and about communicating to these high school kids. But some of them had no idea how to put together a high school curriculum. But yeah, I mean, it worked out. It worked great. So I had a wonderful time there. I really enjoyed it. We stayed for three years. We decided to go for one year, and if we liked it, we'd stay for longer and we stayed for three. 

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Wow. That's awesome. 

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Totally. So that it really started with, were you already interested in art before that? 

Speaker 2 (07:20):
I was interested in archeology. I was convinced I was going to be the next Indiana Jones. This was the thing for me, but I thought I wanted to do Middle Eastern archeology, sort of like what you do. But as soon as I got to Colombo, everything changed. It was all Sophas Asia. It got into my blood somehow. So yeah. 

Speaker 1 (07:40):
That's cool. 

Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (07:42):
So after that, you just began, I mean, how long were you there and when did you come back? 

Speaker 2 (07:50):
I was there for the three years, three years of high school, and then I went to university in Canada. So I left to go to university. My parents stayed there for another year and I left and went. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Wow. 

Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's back to the home country. 

Speaker 1 (08:07):
I am just always so charmed when I find out people grew up somewhere exotic. So then you, I guess from there, how did you get into the museum world? Was it a pretty easy transition from college or 

Speaker 2 (08:23):
So that I think as well was sort of this idea of a random decision that you make and how that affects the rest of your life? I took undergraduate classes mainly in archeology, but I also minored in South Asian studies and was interested in both aspects of it. And following that through, I realized near the end of my four year undergraduate that I didn't want to be an archeologist anymore. And I didn't know what to do with my archeology is interesting. I liked going on digs. I liked learning about the history. I liked doing all these things, but there's this sort of conceptual leap that you have to make in archeology that I found frustrating. You have to be on a dig and you have to sort of look around and when you see a pile of rocks, you have to be able to see a wall and a building and a roof and all of these things, and they have to sort of rise up in front of you. And that just wasn't happening to me. I remember being on a dig and I was working on this one area of my square, and the archeologist came over and he was like, oh, this is fascinating. You found this wonderful wall, and here you can see this doorway. And then the wall continues on the other side. And I looked down and I said, I have a bunch of rocks in a row. I have a spot where there's no rocks, 

Speaker 1 (09:41):
And 

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Then I've got some more rocks. Is that a doorway? 

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Did 

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Somebody move these rocks? I'm not following you. And so I was having trouble with that. I guess that just creating buildings, creating architecture out of ruin was a conceptu leap that just wasn't happening for me. So I had a slight panic attack as you do at your fourth year undergraduate where you're like, oh my God, I'm going to end up working in a coffee shop for the rest of my life, which is great. I make a mean cappuccino because I did spend a lot of time working in coffee shops. So my last week of undergraduate, I went to a lecture at a museum in one of my other classes, one of my anthropology classes, and the curator was giving us this lecture, and she stood up in front of us and she said, hello, this is my name. This is what I do. I'm the curator. That means that I take care of objects. I put on exhibitions, I do a little research, and she sort of laid out what the role is, and I sort of just had this moment where I was like, oh, it, I'll do that. That sounds great. So I called her up a week later and I said, I want to volunteer for you. I'm just going to go and find myself and teach English for a while and come back and then I want to be your little curatorial minion, 

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Hang out with you for a bit. And she let me. And that just led to the next thing, which was go to grad school and then go and do this. And it sort of led me on this path. 

Speaker 1 (11:13):
So I remember around the office when they told us they had hired two curators who were married. We were all so excited because it, I don't know, at least to me, I'm like, what a good story. Because I guess I'm now, I don't know, a 1930s reporter who's always looking for a scoop or something, but I was just like, oh, I guess it was such a nice coincidence in our case that we were able to get both of you. 

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah. I 

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Mean, did you guys see it that way as a nice coincidence or, 

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Oh, it was fabulous. I mean, it was terrifying. The idea of us both being on the job market, seeing what's out there and thinking like, oh, okay, yeah, one of us can live in Seattle and the other one in dc No big deal. No, that's not the way you want to live your life. And 

Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's kind of the reality for a lot of curators, isn't it? Because I mean, it is a career that there's not a lot of curator positions within any city, 

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Right? No. Yeah. You don't really get to choose where you live. You get to, yeah. 

Speaker 1 (12:15):
It's like you've got a couple hubs where there's going to be more in the United States at least. It's like, okay, well you've got DC and New York and you've got these few little places where there's going to be more museums, and thus more curators. 

Speaker 2 (12:29):
But 

Speaker 1 (12:29):
I guess if you're also, I didn't really think about it is for a curator, you're generally specialized. So 

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Even 

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Within that, it's not like, well, there's a lot of museums, 

Speaker 2 (12:40):
It doesn't matter. It's like, well, I need a museum that has a South Asian art collection, and then we need a museum that has a photography collection, and then we need a museum that has openings in both of those areas at the exact same time. We were really stressed about that, but we're really happy it worked out. I mean, oh my God, that's amazing. 

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's 

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Crazy. So you're originally from Canada? 

Speaker 2 (13:03):
I am. 

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Right. So I guess I can't remember you guys, neither you or your husband have any ties to Cincinnati originally, did you? 

Speaker 2 (13:13):
No, not at all. The first time we were over here was coming for the interview. 

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So this was just like, oh, okay. So how many different places in the United States had you lived? 

Speaker 2 (13:26):
I've only ever lived in Philadelphia before now. 

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay. That was 

Speaker 2 (13:29):
It. Yeah. That was the first time I moved to the United States in 2012 for the first time. 

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Philly's an interesting place to probably get your feet wet. 

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, it 

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Probably feels like at least, and I'm basing this solely on my Canadian stereotypes, 

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Please, 

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Please 

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Do, 

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Please do. Stereotype my people. See 

Speaker 2 (13:48):
How polite I was about that. Exactly. 

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Stereotype 

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Number one. 

Speaker 1 (13:51):
There you go. And that was going to be precisely my stereotype about Philadelphia. 

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Oh man. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Not known for being the most polite. 

Speaker 2 (14:00):
No, and that was really fine. So I didn't actually move to Philadelphia from Canada. That probably would've been an interesting move. I moved from London, from English, but when I got to Philadelphia at first I thought, these people are so mean. Everyone is so mean. What is wrong with them? They're yelling all the time, 

Speaker 1 (14:19):
But they just take it in stride, don't they? 

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, so it took me a while, but I realized they're not actually mean. They're just very blunt and abrupt. So whereas a Canadian, I'd be like, oh, excuse me. Pardon me. Do you have a second? Could I ask you a question? I just have to ask, what time does the bus come? They'd be like, yo, times the bus come. And so it's a total different, I dunno, approach to communication style. That took me a while, but I got there eventually. 

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I remember being in Philly and just watching, an old man was crossing the street and a car just moved a little bit towards him, and he just smacked the car, started screaming at it, cursing at them, and I was like, yep, that's Philadelphia right there. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Hi, I'm home. 

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah. So it was a really interesting transition to make. And coming from England was fascinating too, because I'm from this polite, 

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Strange 

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Country, and then moving from the original 

Speaker 1 (15:21):
England, 

Speaker 2 (15:23):
It made a very different experience for me. 

Speaker 1 (15:27):
I don't know. I guess I'm probably too inside it to be able to properly stereotype Cincinnatian yet. I don't know if I could really give you a good sort of where we sit on the spectrum of that. 

Speaker 2 (15:43):
I've enjoyed it so far, trying to suss that out. 

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah. I 

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Feel like Cincinnati has this wonderful Midwestern charm with southern hospitality kind of mixing together in this really interesting way. 

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, it is probably because of it's being sort of smack between the beginning of the south 

Speaker 2 (16:05):
And 

Speaker 1 (16:06):
The north. It does have a little bit of a mix of those things going on. I think one of the criticisms I have heard lobbed at us from people who are not from here, is that we are really nichey and very insular, and because people live here for a really long time, they have trouble letting new people in. 

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yes. But that's like a Midwestern thing. I think though too. I think that you see that I have friends who moved to Minneapolis, and the same thing happened 

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Where 

Speaker 2 (16:37):
People were super polite, but you never got past a coined stage. 

Speaker 1 (16:41):
Yeah. That's what a lot of people say about here. And because it's not a city full of transient 

Speaker 2 (16:48):
People 

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Where everybody has to be welcoming to make those friend groups happen and make those communities, because people already have ones they grew up with, 

Speaker 2 (17:00):
It's, 

Speaker 1 (17:00):
It takes a little harder to chip through that wall. 

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't have any friends, so Oh my 

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Gosh, I feel like this episode should be like, do you want to be my friend? You can come. 

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah. And I think it is hard, and it's hard at different times in your life too, that's sort of like 

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Chips. You're married with a kid too, and that changes things as well. 

Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, no, definitely. I've met a lot more people, I think because of that. You can talk about the kid and you make connections with people, but we haven't been here for too long either. Yeah. You 

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Have to come on a baby tour sometime. 

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine my baby actually staying still for long enough for a baby tour, but I'll try. 

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Hey, you know what? Almost the thing we hear all the time is just people being surprised by how their babies behave on baby tours. So overall, we have very little crying on them. Usually the babies are pretty into it, and they're engaged enough that we just don't have a lot of tears. 

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Cool. 

Speaker 1 (18:10):
I don't know, maybe we're just getting lucky, but 

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Maybe until my wild child comes, but 

Speaker 1 (18:16):
People always say, they're like, I never thought they would. There's a lot of surprise from people going, I didn't think they would stare at this as long as they did, but you got to think they got new eyes. They're taking in new stuff all the time, and then they're put in this new environment that they've never been to. So it's like 

Speaker 2 (18:34):
All 

Speaker 1 (18:35):
New stuff that's all exciting and interesting to them. So I think that's why they're, and we pick pieces that they will respond to. Hopefully we try to get into the mind of a baby 

Speaker 2 (18:49):
And 

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Find the things that they'll be interested in. So things with faces and light. I wonder if the anila aga piece would be interesting for a baby or too bright for a baby. I don't even 

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Know. I'm trying to figure that out. I really want to bring my son to that. I think he would love it. Partly there's just so much space in that gallery to run around that I think he would sort of go nuts. I think it'd be really in the shadows and his own shadow as it gets projected onto the wall. I would definitely try to keep him from staring the light bulb. 

Speaker 1 (19:24):
That was the only thing that worried me, 

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Because I was like, 

Speaker 1 (19:26):
That light's really bright, but the contrast is usually a really big thing we go for. So there's a lot of that. And I mean, there's so many tours we do that are for babies that are just black and white. Oh, 

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, definitely. That 

Speaker 1 (19:39):
We try to do just black and white tours so that even though it's not just black and white, the shadows on the wall would kind of fit into that. Definitely. I don't know, maybe since we're already talking about that, that's a good transition to go look at it. 

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Okay. Sounds good. 

Speaker 1 (20:05):
So here we are in the, what I always call the shift gallery. I always forget the number of it. 

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah. Actually I do as well. I call it the shift gallery. It's 2 34, maybe in 2 35. 

Speaker 1 (20:18):
That sounds good. 

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Right. Let's go with that. 

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Can't remember. It's up there. I know it's in the high, and it doesn't coordinate with the ones right outside the door. Those are like two twenties or something. 

Speaker 2 (20:30):
It coordinates with the one outside that door where the works on paper are. 

Speaker 1 (20:35):
The other special galleries are, I think 2 32 and 2 33. So maybe this is 2 34 and three. 

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah. Right. 

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, sure. This has been fascinating talk. 

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Oh yes. Thank 

Speaker 1 (20:49):
You for listening. 

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Thank you for not turning off, 

Speaker 1 (20:51):
This is becoming a staple of my podcast is the moment when we debate which gallery we're standing in number, and it's easily probably something nobody else caress about this's, like, I don't know. Yeah, just ask where the big box is. If you 

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Want to find, that's all you need to do. Big red box. 

Speaker 1 (21:10):
So this was like your first museum purchase, wasn't it? 

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yes, it was. Yeah, it was the first purchase with our new endowment for South Asian art, the Alice Bimal Endowment for Asian art. So it's very exciting. 

Speaker 1 (21:25):
That was pretty, and I mean, how long had you worked here before you got to make that decision? 

Speaker 2 (21:30):
I think about five days. That's 

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Not normal, right? 

Speaker 2 (21:34):
No, that's really not normal. Which was pretty awesome though, to get here and to hit the ground running. I mean, I had every intention of showing up at this job and saying, have you guys heard of Aila Aga? She's in Indianapolis. She's great. But as soon as I got here, people had already heard of her and had already sort of thinking about her in that way. So I just sort of came and said, yes, I agree. Let's go. Yeah. And so here we are, I think two weeks or three weeks into my job here, putting up this exhibition, writing out the labels interpretation. It was kind of a great way to meet all of my new colleagues really, to actually work on a project with them 

Speaker 1 (22:19):
That is just jumping into the deep end of the pool, isn't 

Speaker 2 (22:21):
It? Yeah. Why not? 

Speaker 1 (22:24):
It might be a little cold, but you're going to just get it all over with 

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Pretty much. 

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Instead of doing that thing, you don't have to dip your toes in slowly. 

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yes. No, there was no dipping of toes in this one. There was a jump right in kind of situation. But yeah, no, I'm so pleased that it's here. I think it's such a wonderful, beautiful piece, and it is such a great addition to the collection. 

Speaker 1 (22:47):
So if you have not seen this piece, it is a very large, is it four foot by is each side four 

Speaker 2 (22:55):
Foot 60 by 60? So yeah, that's four feet, right? Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (23:01):
So it's a cube that is four foot in each dimension, and it's suspended in the air, kind of looks like it's floating. And then it is laser cut, is that 

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yes. Yeah. So it's laser cut steel, and it's all sort of put together as this large cube, and it's lacquered this bright red color. 

Speaker 1 (23:23):
And the inside, it was the outside red too. 

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yes, it is. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (23:27):
It's interesting. You can't really tell because of the light. The light is inside the cube, so you can see the color of the inside, and then you're only getting the shadow on the outside. And it's all of this really intricate detail of geometric patterns, and it just of has almost like aness to it that casts all these amazing shadows on the wall. So it's this really cool piece that becomes not just about the object itself, but the whole space. It's in that it's casting this light and the shadow all around the room. And it's a really interesting, I guess a lot of her works look similar or have the same sort of idea behind them, but it's really interesting to see how maybe they activate different spaces differently. 

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Oh, definitely. Actually, that's a big part of it. So she's been working Aila aga, the artist has been working in steel for only a few years. I think 2013 was the first piece that she made in this laser cut steel. And I've seen some of her works in different gallery spaces in person, and then also some of them just through photographs. But it's completely different every single time. I was a little bit nervous about this space because the Shift Gallery is this beautiful, wonderful, large space, and it's sort of more rectangular in shape. 

Speaker 2 (24:53):
And so I was wondering what would happen to the shadows on the sides, seen it in more square rooms, and I kind of love what it does here. I think it's really amazing, and the artist loves it too. It has these really sort of precise shadows on the two sidewall directly next, the ones that are closest to the centerpiece. And then the pattern turns into this really sort of diffuse dispersed idea of the pattern as it hits the front wall and the back wall, because it's just a little bit further away from the light bulb, and it just adds this other layer of texture to it. I really like it. 

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, I had the same sort of reservations about it when I heard it was going in here too. I thought, oh, is that going to work? I guess I'm too practical about these things too, that I'm thinking, how is that going to work? Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Make this happen. 

Speaker 1 (25:47):
But yeah, I agree. The way that those shadows sort of stretch out in certain areas over here, I think is really, really cool. And just adds an extra dimension of having those different parts of the shadows to compare to each 

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Other. Yes. Yeah, no, I think it totally changes the reception and the ceiling too. This sort of tray ceiling that just gives another level and layer for the shadows to reflect on or to sort of transmit the light onto, which I think is really, really neat. 

Speaker 1 (26:22):
And I've never noticed that little pattern up there on 

Speaker 2 (26:25):
The ceiling too. A lot of people say that they've never seen the runway. They're like, oh, is that the shift gallery? That can't be our gallery. But it is. And that's always been there. It's just never really been called attention to before. 

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah. It's just so much until you have a piece like this that makes you focus on the walls, the floors, the ceiling, every bit of space around you, typically my eyes are straight ahead. Whenever I'm in this space, I never look up. 

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, no. And why would you in a gallery experience, right? Because looking at your 60 center, you're looking at the work of art on the wall or on the platform or the plant, then you're focusing on that where this piece is very much sort of trying to make you do the opposite. It's trying to make you experience the work in the center of the room, but also to experience the room to experience the space. And I think it's really successful in this room and in this space because of that. Because it just changes the way that you look at it. 

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah. I was just having similar thoughts about how it's something I had been subconsciously aware of, but hadn't really thought of that this piece does literally make the whole room, the artwork, 

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Wherever it 

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Goes, that becomes the space. I am always really interested in that idea of the frame of where an artwork begins and ends, because it's always, I feel like a lot of times people have problems with certain artworks because they don't actually know where the frame begins and ends for certain pieces. And actually another artist who I think does this in a less obvious way that I think she is very aware of is Donald Judd too, in that you have these sort of big boxy sculptures. And to me, by putting them directly on the floor, in his case, he's making them about how those things function in that whole space as well. It's not quite as obvious as it is here, 

Speaker 2 (28:25):
But I 

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Also, the way this piece is sort of a really interesting look at a sort of Donald Judd cube, but with the most, or the most anti Judd kind of thing going on. And there's so much more weight in things, I don't know, so much more content it feels like because of it. I dunno. I think it, it's very fascinating to me. And I don't know, I am sure I'm not alone in this, but I don't know, maybe it's too obvious or something, but I just keep coming back to this, that beautiful big black cube at Mecca that people circle around. It just always, I've always loved that as just almost 

Speaker 2 (29:14):
As this idea 

Speaker 1 (29:15):
And just as an art object. I think it's just really beautiful. I've always thought, oh, that's really, I kind like the simplicity of it, and maybe part of me just is interested in it because it looks like modernism. 

Speaker 2 (29:30):
It does. Yeah. No, actually, it really, really does. And there's a lot of prints that you see of Mecca that includes that in the center. And even that, yeah, it's this weird modern influx into a very, very sort of, I dunno, not traditional, but just completely disrupts the architecture and the experience when you see it. Yeah. No, it's really fascinating. And she's definitely referencing Islamic architecture and Islamic architectural forms. I don't think necessarily Mecca, but this idea of the ornate floral and ornamentation and geometric forms that you see in Islamic architecture throughout the Islamic world is definitely part of what you're experiencing here. But the cube shape itself changes that somehow. 

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Well, and I think it is maybe another thing that makes, I think it, it's a very spiritual piece as well. 

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Very much so. Yeah. It 

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Just has so much, I guess it's hard not to think of this for me, when I think of things with light and vessels and stuff, and this light that is cast out, it all just has a lot of, I don't know, ways that I think people could interpret that in a very spiritual way. 

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, no, definitely. And I think, so the artist talks about it as creating inclusive and welcoming space, and so to use ideas of awe and wonder and beauty to create this sort of all encompassing, welcoming space. And so I think it's sort of, its spirituality, not organized religion, but spirituality definitely. 

Speaker 1 (31:26):
But I think it also, I've watched people in this space, and I'm always interested in how things influence people's behaviors. 

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yes. And this place is so interesting to watch 

Speaker 1 (31:38):
People become, I think in general, pretty reverent 

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Towards 

Speaker 1 (31:41):
It, more so than they do in, I don't know. I think I'm always interested in the way maybe museum architecture and church architecture sometimes have things in common, and the way those maybe set up an expectation of the types of experiences you're about to have. But I feel like people here in this room are the most reverent. I've seen them in any space. 

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah. Well, I think, and part of that is because we're disrupting that idea of what they're expecting in the museum environment and the way that they know they're supposed to behave and react. Don't get too close to this. Read the label on the wall for this stand and look at one object at a time, move along on your conveyor belt to the next one. I feel like this gallery is very much meant to change that and to take you out of that comfort zone. So I think that's probably part of why people are treating it with such reverence is because it's strangely intimidating to be out of your comfort zone in a place where you feel like you do know how you're supposed to behave, which is really neat. And I think before we hung out, we talked to the conservators and all this stuff, and we were trying to figure out how worried do we need to be about people touching it? And I think, of course, some people do touch it because people like to 

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Touch things. 

Speaker 2 (33:02):
You can't stop. Can't stop that. No matter how hard to try. We don't. But 

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (33:06):
It's going to happen. But I think there's a lot less, I 

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Think so too 

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Than we thought because of that. Because people are just sort of like, they're having this emotional connection and experience to space and place, which is really cool. 

Speaker 1 (33:24):
I think people come in and they do take it very seriously. 

Speaker 2 (33:27):
And 

Speaker 1 (33:28):
In the same way that I am not a religious person, but when I go into a cathedral or something, I still sort of feel weird. If I have to get too close to the altar or 

Speaker 2 (33:39):
Something, 

Speaker 1 (33:40):
I'm not supposed to be up here. 

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah. This isn't my place. This where I go. 

Speaker 1 (33:46):
And I kind of get that sense too. People keep a healthy distance from it just because it's, well, that's not my place. 

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (33:55):
I'm allowed to be back here. And maybe because of the shadow, I mean, maybe it's something as simple as also the shadow it casts on the floor creates a literal box around 

Speaker 2 (34:04):
It. Yes, it does. And I do wonder, I feel like people are sort of respecting that shadow, which is really cool and unplanned. We talked a lot about ways to keep people from it. Do we want little stanchions underneath it? And a few different institutions have done that, and we just thought, let's just try with nothing and see what happens. So please, as you listen to this, don't decide to come and swing on the work of art because you can please be respectful of it. And the fact that we haven't put stanchions 

Speaker 1 (34:35):
And you just see sometimes we do our best, but it's like we've had instances where the stanchions themselves have caused tripping. 

Speaker 2 (34:46):
We've 

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Had instances where a stanchion falls over and hits a work of art. 

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Oh God. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (34:52):
So you do your best, but sometimes those plans fall through too. And I just think with a piece like this, I'm glad that you let it just be completely by itself in the space without even a line or anything. Because I 

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Think 

Speaker 1 (35:08):
It would put one extra level of, I don't know, it would just change it a little bit. 

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah. No, I totally agree. I'm really glad we were able to leave it like this and that. We've been lucky so far. No, it's such a beautiful piece. 

Speaker 1 (35:22):
It's probably the most instagramed piece from the museum right now, too. 

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Probably. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (35:27):
I see a lot of photos of it. 

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah. I keep on checking. I think that's great too. It is such a piece that people are responding to. And in the 21st century, that's the way that people are responding is by having that connection with it and then sharing that with social media. I learned about sorts of think that's fabulous 

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Things in the museum world through Instagram all the time. I'm 

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Like, oh, this 

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Is the new show that's at the Whitney. That's how I find out about it half the time. 

Speaker 2 (35:53):
No, me too. 

Speaker 1 (35:54):
That's fine. And if people want to do their work, advertise for us, 

Speaker 2 (35:59):
Then great. Yeah, no big deal. Yeah. No, no, definitely. Well, 

Speaker 1 (36:05):
I am going to have to talk to your husband soon too. Any advice? Any tips? 

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Any tips? Gosh, I don't know. 

Speaker 1 (36:17):
Now you have to be careful what you say. 

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Bribe him. I don't know. Coffee. You have free 

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Coffee in the office. It's 

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Not, oh, better coffee. 

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Ouch. Shots fired. Dang. Actually, today I got that coffee and I drank it, and it was the best tasting coffee I've ever had in my life. And I think it's because I was drinking my own coffee at home this weekend. And so in 

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Comparison, you're like, oh, don't mind if I do 

Speaker 1 (36:44):
Way better than that. Folger's original. I was ruin. 

Speaker 2 (36:49):
That's true. My coffee at home right now isn't not good either. I enjoyed my cup this morning and maybe this morning was particularly delicious. 

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, sometimes it does taste better. I think it just depends on the ratio of grounds that they get in there. 

Speaker 2 (37:02):
I believe that's exactly what 

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Changes 

Speaker 2 (37:04):
The cup of coffee. 

Speaker 1 (37:06):
That would be the only thing, right? 

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Well, that and the temperature of the water 

Speaker 1 (37:13):
A way to really, that one. 

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah. We got that one down. 

Speaker 1 (37:17):
You figure it out that one of two elements might be affecting the flavor of the coffee. 

Speaker 2 (37:23):
We would've thought 

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Brilliant. 

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Yep. 

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Well, where we first got it, were you here when we were just dumping the whole bag in there? 

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yes. And people were leaving notes. Yes. Yeah, because 

Speaker 1 (37:37):
They didn't tell us. They just said, oh, well, here you can make coffee. Great. 

Speaker 2 (37:41):
They 

Speaker 1 (37:41):
Didn't tell us that. You're not supposed to put that whole bag in there. 

Speaker 2 (37:44):
But surely we could have figured that out ourselves too. I think I 

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Would've figured it out when I was shaking as much as I was shaking at work. But I still was like, wow, this is just strong coffee. 

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, God, love it. Have some more. 

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Everyone who you talk to would just be like, 

Speaker 2 (38:00):
I'm typing so fast. I've never 

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Focused 

Speaker 2 (38:03):
On, I can 

Speaker 1 (38:03):
See around corners every, everyone's so amped and everyone you talk to would say the same thing. 

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Wow, that coffee's strong, isn't it? 

Speaker 1 (38:13):
And then finally somebody went down to the security training center to get some coffee 

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Because 

Speaker 1 (38:18):
We were out. Because we were going through it. And I even think finance was like, wow, they're 

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Really, how 

Speaker 1 (38:22):
Are they doing 

Speaker 2 (38:23):
This? Through it 

Speaker 1 (38:24):
In Longworth, aren't they? And so we went down and someone in security probably told us, you're only supposed to be putting half bag in there. Like, 

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Oh, it changes everything. 

Speaker 1 (38:38):
And it tasted way better 

Speaker 2 (38:40):
When we did that. It did. Definitely. Definitely. 

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Well, this has been coffee talk. Thank you for listening. But that's all you got. Was coffee bribes 

Speaker 2 (38:53):
For him? I mean, yeah. I don't know. He is very nice. He's probably 

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Quieter. Do you think he'll be more nervous or less nervous? 

Speaker 2 (39:02):
I don't know. See, he taught for a long time. He taught at universities so he can speak, I think to people 

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Better than I 

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Can. I'm just a little nerd, nerdy curator who sits in the corner. He talks to people more than I do. 

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah. That's one of those things where when I find out people have taught in classrooms, I'm always like, oh, it's fine. 

Speaker 2 (39:20):
We'll be good 

Speaker 1 (39:22):
In a lot of different situations if somebody is giving a lecture or anything. And I find out they have taught. I'm like, because having to do improv every single day, I think it 

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Beats 

Speaker 1 (39:34):
That fear out of people really quickly. Because every day you go and you stand up in front of people and have to keep them engaged 

Speaker 2 (39:41):
And students engaged. That's hard. It is. 

Speaker 1 (39:45):
So 

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (39:46):
I think that alright. He'll be fine. 

Speaker 2 (39:49):
He'll be fine. Me on the other hand, total train wreck, but he'll be fine. No, you were great. 

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Well, thank you for coming on. 

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Thank you. 

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are a shared legacy folk art in America, which will be closing on September 3rd. William Kentridge, more sweetly Play the dance. And of course, Aela, Kam, aga, all the flowers are for me. If you want to learn more about this exhibition, join us for an onstage conversation between Aela Aga and Ainsley Cameron on September 21st from seven to 8:00 PM members and students get in for free and general admission is $10. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. Our theme song is Efron Mu by Lau. And as always, give us those good, good five star reviews on iTunes. I'm Russell Eig and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.