Speaker 1 (00:00:00): Coming up on Art Palace. That's so true. I had never thought about that. But carousels, that's a really good marketing plan is like you got to catch 'em all. It's like Pokemon. It's like the Pokemon of the 19th century carousels they got there. First. Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is one of our docents Zoe Ray Zand, who is taking me on a tour of a shared legacy folk art in America. You can use this episode as an audio tour and listen along in the exhibition or just enjoy it by itself. If you'd like to come see a shared legacy, skip the lines and purchase tickets online@cincinnatiartmuseum.org. Use code cincy bogo at checkout to get your second ticket for free. Discount valid only on adult full price tickets. That's Cincy Bogo. Cincy with a Y, all one word. If you're listening along as an audio tour, our first stop is right at the beginning of the exhibition at the title wall. We are here at a shared legacy folk art in America, and I'm with Zorra Zand, and we are looking at, actually this will be the easiest piece in the show to find because it's right at the front Speaker 2 (00:01:45): And it greets us. Speaker 1 (00:01:46): If you're looking at the wall that says folk art in America, you will see this piece Speaker 2 (00:01:51): And it's a child wearing a dress shoulder bearing blue color with a little bit of gold in there, and it's holding a strawberry over its heart. And then it has got APR of strawberries with his left hand on his lap. There are four strawberries, ripened strawberries and one white colored unr. Speaker 1 (00:02:17): But Speaker 2 (00:02:17): You hardly notice at the very beginning you have to pay attention to see it. Speaker 1 (00:02:20): Yeah, because it kind of blends in with the color of the dress. Speaker 2 (00:02:23): And there's three leaves and I looked up and many photographs to see strawberries normally don't come this perfect. I mean, the way it has been put here on the lap of the kit, it's really perfect. Speaker 1 (00:02:37): Yeah, yeah, it's a little too ideal. Probably too ideal, especially the organization of where it's like each of them are splayed out. I mean, I remember my grandfather grew strawberries and they're just kind of in a mess on the ground. Usually you don't really, I don't know. I don't even think of them on a vine quite like this because usually once you get them out of there, they're already, you pull 'em off usually. But yeah. That's interesting. The strawberry over the heart. What do you think that's about? Speaker 2 (00:03:10): I think because strawberry symbolize a lot of things and even in Christianity and everything, purity, abundance and love the red color and over the heart. It looks like a heart too, doesn't Speaker 1 (00:03:23): It? Yeah, it does. And I was thinking about the un ripened strawberry has a nice connection to a young child. Speaker 2 (00:03:31): Exactly. Yeah. I would say that's to, we need to ripe and become somebody, and I gave it away because I used the word, so this child in a dress is a boy, Speaker 1 (00:03:44): Not Speaker 2 (00:03:44): A girl. And yes, in those days, children, especially boys, till the age of three would wear a dress Speaker 1 (00:03:52): Sometimes even later. Even Speaker 2 (00:03:54): Later. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:03:54): Yeah. It depends. I mean, I think it depends on the exact time period, but I've read up to five or so sometimes. I think some of that is practical. It's easier to keep if all your kids, when they're young wear dresses have hand-me-downs no matter what the gender is. Speaker 2 (00:04:17): Exactly. But he might have also pants on because what is that, what he's wearing under the dress? Speaker 1 (00:04:24): Yeah. It's almost like some sort of undergarment that although you kind of think an old movies and stuff where ladies are wearing all this complicated underwear, it comes all the way down to their ankles. It might be kind of similar to that. I don't know. This is where I'm like, I'm a little fashion deficient. I don't really know enough about that stuff. Speaker 2 (00:04:46): But generally we can see this child looks very, I mean, proper decent has got red cheeks, blue eyes looking at us, but there's also a dog, but Speaker 1 (00:04:59): The Speaker 2 (00:05:00): Dog is not paying any attention to us, does he? Speaker 1 (00:05:02): No. He's just such a cute little dog. Speaker 2 (00:05:05): Yeah, he is brown and color with a little bit of white in his face and the paws are white and he's paying attention maybe to the folk art gallery. Speaker 1 (00:05:16): That is true. He is almost pointing us into the show. I kind of assume, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I assume that a lot of times dogs are usually symbols of loyalty in painting, so I kind of wonder if that's another sort of message there about trying to show that the child is sort of loyal to the family. Maybe Speaker 2 (00:05:37): I read that parents gave kids pets like dogs so that they would learn loyalty, as you said, respect to animals and have a companion in a way so that they would grow up. So here we see again a child with a dog, and actually this painting is attributed to Mi Phillips I, Phillips was a self-taught artist. He would go from city to city or town to town on the east coast and would paint portraits, if I'm not mistaken, he has done more than 500 and he would get, and he's actually quite good at it. Usually he has got the back black background and he has almost an animal there or a toy of the child in the painting. And here we see the dog being on the right side of the child on further down and the child is sitting on a red stool and the color combination of the red strawberries, the red stew and the blue, they're really, really nice red showing to me, red means love and life and blood, so to say. And the blue also again, water, sky and life again. So this is a nice, nice painting. And as I said, this little boy greets us. Speaker 1 (00:06:56): And if I'm trying to think of again, maybe other color symbolism here, if we are assuming a maybe Christian symbology of associating blue with Mary and purity is possibly another thing which maybe makes sense for a child to try to show that they're very pure and innocent. Speaker 2 (00:07:17): I agree with you. I agree. Speaker 1 (00:07:20): Well, do you want to look at another piece? Speaker 2 (00:07:22): Sure, why not? Speaker 1 (00:07:23): Okay, so where are we going next? Speaker 2 (00:07:26): Shall we go that ego? Speaker 1 (00:07:27): So if you're facing the painting, you're going to want to turn left and you're going to see a big wooden eagle just straight ahead. So we're just going to walk on over there towards that eagle. Now what sort of attracted you to this piece? Speaker 2 (00:07:42): I mean, eagle is a symbol of America and here the eagle is so powerful. We don't know if it just landed or if it's just trying to lift off. And what I like about it also, it faces left Speaker 1 (00:08:00): And Speaker 2 (00:08:00): Is sitting or just standing on a ORP globe type of and underneath it to keep the balance, there is another wood panel to keep the orb on it. To me, that's just me. When I looked at it, I thought maybe the claws are on the left and Speaker 1 (00:08:21): You can just say if you're facing it too. If you're Speaker 2 (00:08:23): Facing it. Yeah. Okay. If you're facing it, the left one looks to me as being the American continent, the new continent and the right cloth foot is on Europe, so to say. So I thought because of the globe, if it was on a different kind of standing, I wouldn't think of that, but only because it reminds me of Earth. Speaker 1 (00:08:45): That's so funny. Yeah. Would've never mean, but that's great about everyone has their own interpretations of these things. I probably would've never looked at this wooden, wooden ball and ever thought of it as a globe, but I don't know mean maybe the artist had some thought of that and sort of thought of that idea of, I mean, if you read it that way, it's certainly also would feel like a very piece sort of touting America's strength in a way just because it's this giant eagle compared to the size of the globe. So if you read it that way, that would be something that one would maybe take away from that. Speaker 2 (00:09:28): To me, it gave it even more power. When you look up, you see the face of it. It's proud and it's really, I mean it's filled with pride and strength and then on the globe, and yeah, I thought it was really, really neat. And if I'm not mistaken, they believe it could be one of the 13 eagles, which were one in a courthouse in New England and it was representing, I mean, those 13 eagles bald eagles were representing the original 13 colonies, Speaker 1 (00:10:01): Which I mean, the idea of colonies kind of brings in the globe again. I guess That's definitely makes sense. I kind of wonder when you just sort of said immediately like, oh, well we associate an eagle with the United States right away. I mean, is that something, since you didn't grow up here, is that something you always would've associated or did? Would you have had a different association with an eagle from, Speaker 2 (00:10:29): I mean, as far as I know, I always learned that the eagle is a symbol of the United States. Speaker 1 (00:10:35): It's just interesting just because other places have used eagles too. So I just kind of wondered what kind of, how well we've cornered the market on eagles, I would say. Cool. Pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah, we got that one knocked down. It's like you got eagles covered. I guess we have the bald eagle, which is fairly distinct, which is a little different than maybe the other eagles I'm thinking of. But what was the other piece you wanted to look at? Speaker 2 (00:11:02): I love this piece too, because it's so typical of folk art. I mean folk art. So Speaker 1 (00:11:08): Which piece is this? Speaker 2 (00:11:09): This is the piece by Henry, the form of Henry Wendell. Speaker 1 (00:11:14): Okay. So if you were standing at the front of the eagle, you'll just kind of turn to your right. And it is a landscape featuring a big cow. And if you were behind the eagle, you just kind of walk straight ahead. You'll be facing it, actually. Speaker 2 (00:11:29): And I look at the eagle from this angle too, and he is following us. He is looking. Speaker 1 (00:11:33): That's true. That's true. Just follow the eagle's gaze. That's true. Just go to where the eagle will point you in the right direction. Just follow his beak. He's like two canned Sam. Follow his nose. Speaker 2 (00:11:44): Russell, this is a big painting. It Speaker 1 (00:11:47): Is pretty big. Speaker 2 (00:11:48): It's oil on canvas and it's by Henry Doa. And what does strike you? What do you see right away, which is not in the center, but takes? Speaker 1 (00:11:59): Well, I kind of spoiled it. I guess I did already say it, but yeah, there is an enormous cow in this painting. Speaker 2 (00:12:06): And why would you say enormous? What makes it enormous? I Speaker 1 (00:12:09): Mean, if I'm trying to trust the scale of this painting, which is maybe questionable. You have trees in the middle and then you have this cow that would be towering over those trees. And to add to the confusion, there are also other trees next to the cow, which seem a little more in scale, but it's like we have one scale for the house, and then we go to this one pasture over and we have this enormous cow that's like if we were to take, it literally would almost be like a fairytale cow. It's like Paul bunions babe, the Blue Ox or something. It's that kind of big, actually, Speaker 2 (00:12:52): Henry Windle apparently is very proud of this bull. Speaker 1 (00:12:55): Yeah, it's a Speaker 2 (00:12:56): Shorthorn bull and it won prize or a prize at least. And the bull has even a name William Allen. Speaker 1 (00:13:05): That's such great name for a bull, William Allen. Speaker 2 (00:13:10): And we know it says also eight, five years and it weighs 2,500 pounds. Speaker 1 (00:13:19): I'd like to say I know enough about cows to tell you that's a big coward. I really don't know how far, I mean, it sounds very heavy for an animal to weigh. I am going to trust that that's a big, big bull. Speaker 2 (00:13:31): Maybe nowadays not so much. But in those days, about a hundred and odd years ago, it was a huge cow bull. And look at the turf where there is hay. I mean is he being fed Speaker 1 (00:13:43): Enough? It's a snack. Yeah. I don't think he got that big eaten that, hey, that's not nearly enough to get a bull that big. Speaker 2 (00:13:50): And this bull is totally on the right hand side of the painting towards the front. We see it right away. The mansion, the house where the owners live is almost how that was the size of the bull. It's not more than that, is it? I mean, in compare dimension wise. I mean the house is tiny. Speaker 1 (00:14:09): Oh yeah. I mean the house is centralized, so I guess it has a little bit of importance there. But yeah, if you would kind of push the bull back in space, he would recede a little bit. But I still think he would be almost at as tall as the first floor. I think Speaker 2 (00:14:26): That's what I'm saying. Half of the house. Speaker 1 (00:14:28): Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm thinking if you pushed him back, he's probably going to, he could lick the top of that porch probably. Speaker 2 (00:14:36): Now imagine if he would paint the bull the size it really was. I mean, taking in consideration the perspectives and everything, that would be not very big. Speaker 1 (00:14:48): No, no. It'd be a pretty tiny cow. Speaker 2 (00:14:50): Yeah, it would be very small. But the trees here seem to be unnaturally small or Yeah, it Speaker 1 (00:14:59): Weird. It looks to me as if each section was sort of painted on its own and sort of didn't really consider the other one. So it's almost like they thought about the middle section in one way, then kind of got over and thought about this cow. And as they were working on the cow, they kind of forgot about the relationship to the cow, to the house. So it kind of took on its own thing. But like you said, it has this, I don't really, when I look at it, I don't take it literally. Even though it's funny to imagine this giant cow, I just tend to think like, oh, this cow is really important. Speaker 2 (00:15:34): Exactly. And we are looking from a perspective from up somewhere, from a hill down view. Yeah. Bird's view and look at the driveway. I mean so thin and small in compare Speaker 1 (00:15:46): To Speaker 2 (00:15:46): The rest. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:15:48): And I wonder if, I don't know this, but I kind of wonder if that perspective is less about, there's actually a hill there that's easy to get to, or maybe it's just sort of this is an easier perspective to deal with, Speaker 2 (00:16:05): But it's all well-maintained. We see the white fence. Speaker 1 (00:16:08): Everything Speaker 2 (00:16:09): Seems to be having its order. The trees in the back are all in order. The painting is typical as a folk artist, it's very flat too. Speaker 1 (00:16:18): Yeah, Speaker 2 (00:16:19): Look at the cow, how flat the poor thing is. Speaker 1 (00:16:22): Well, and the flatness of the cow is made even stronger by the fact that the cow is so square and straight on with the picture plane too. So the edges, the cow is parallel with the picture plane. So yeah, he's such a square cow, which I kind of love how blocky he is. Again, it makes him funnier to me, just kind of this giant thing, especially how tiny his little head is. Speaker 2 (00:16:52): But he looks happy in a way. He's looking somewhere out there and seems to be a happy cow. I mean the colors are vibrant. The cow looks very healthy. Speaker 1 (00:17:05): Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, if you've got a cow that big, he's got to be healthy. He's got to be doing okay. Speaker 2 (00:17:10): I'm sure if I was Henry Wendell, I would be very pleased with his painting. Speaker 1 (00:17:15): You would've hung it proudly on your wall. Speaker 2 (00:17:19): Yes, because it says everything about me. Order activity. I mean, big property, a nice cow, an award-winning one Speaker 1 (00:17:29): Award-winning cow. Speaker 2 (00:17:30): And I'm a well and off man. And yeah, it tells everything in a beautiful day. So what else would I like to have? I mean, that's all. Speaker 1 (00:17:39): What more could you ask for? What else? What's our next piece that we're going to look at? Speaker 2 (00:17:43): Let's look at something. And I like this one because it's attributed to William Shimo. Speaker 1 (00:17:50): Okay, so turn around from the cow painting and walk towards, there's a case on the wall that's red and there's some carved animals in it. And we are looking at the poodle. Speaker 2 (00:18:05): Yeah, it's a poodle and it's somehow attributed to William Shimel. William Shimel came from Germany, from Hestan area, and he was a man, apparently bad temper. Speaker 2 (00:18:21): He was mostly drunk. He was a tramp. He was going from place to place, but asking for odd jobs, he would now then get an odd job. I was looking up and I saw his arbitrary, which was published when he died. He died in a poor house, poor. And there they have written hold on, old Shimo, the German who for many years trem through this and adjourning countries making his headquarters in jails and arms houses died at the arm house on Sunday. That was August 3rd. His only occupation was carving heads of animals out of soft pinewood. These, he would sell for a few pennies each. He was apparently a man of very surely disposition. And now when he was discovered years later, at least 30 years later, again by the collectors of folk art, if he was alive and was selling his carvings at the price, which nowadays people are paying for it, he would have died a very, very wealthy man. Speaker 1 (00:19:36): Yeah, that's a really tragic side to these pieces. I just come over here and I'm like, oh, it's animals. How cute. And then I had no idea that he's died in a poor house and was drunk and angry all the time and just carved animals and made a few cents off of him. It's pretty tragic. Speaker 2 (00:19:55): And actually the front, when we, between this gallery and the next door, I mean we have got another glass case and there is a tiger with a human being in the mouth of the tiger, and that's also attributed to Speaker 1 (00:20:08): Shial. Speaker 2 (00:20:10): Oh, okay. And that's also very whimsical and funny. Yeah, Speaker 1 (00:20:12): I like that. I know which lion you mean, or it's a tiger. Yeah. Actually, there's something about this poodle that reminds me of really ancient art too. There's something about the way, I don't know, the fuzzy bits of the poodle, the front of it. That would be, it looks like he's got that trimmed back backside and then his front is all fluffy. But the way that fur is rendered is just, there's something about it that reminds me of some of the more ancient art, Speaker 2 (00:20:44): Like the lion. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:20:46): Yeah. That's what it kind of makes me think of our lion, which it's like, are you thinking of the ary lion, the big one? Or even the Persian lion that has kind of very geometric shapes in it. And even some of that older art that some of those animals in the near Eastern collection that have really geometric shapes, they're again kind of abstracted it. Just something about this always makes me think of something older than it really is. Speaker 2 (00:21:24): And when I look from this side facing the poodle, it seems as if it says come and play with me, Speaker 1 (00:21:31): Isn't it? Yeah, he does actually. We kind of have it turned right to the edge or just from the side. And I think when you get a look at his face, if you get over a little bit, he is a little friendlier looking from the front than he kind of lets on the side, he seems very, I think because his body is kind of rigid, again, maybe that rigidity is something that makes me think of some ancient art. But yeah, when you get to the front, it's a little more fun, a little more playful than the side lets on, Speaker 2 (00:22:01): Or maybe the tail is also a little bit up in this case because of the mouth, it looks a little bit funnier. Maybe it's Speaker 1 (00:22:07): A Speaker 2 (00:22:07): Whacking tail. I mean at the time. Speaker 1 (00:22:10): But that's a good point. I hadn't thought about the tail being straight out. I think if you're used to reading dog body language, that's another thing that makes me think it doesn't come across as a super friendly dog from the side. His tail is not up, it's straight out, which is more of a hunting kind of like I'm on the hunt sort of tail position and less of a let's play. Speaker 2 (00:22:36): But the ears are more down. I mean the ears are not, I mean, when they are an alert, the ears go a little bit up too. It's really relaxed. The ear looks relaxed. Speaker 1 (00:22:48): Yeah, I agree. Speaker 2 (00:22:49): So again, we don't know. Speaker 1 (00:22:51): Yeah, if you just kind of look at the face, he seems like a real friendly dog, so Speaker 2 (00:22:56): Especially because of the ears being relaxed. But the tail, again, we don't know what. Speaker 1 (00:23:02): Well, let's move on to our next piece. What did you want to look at Speaker 2 (00:23:05): Folk? Art has got also some usage to it. I mean like this dresser here. Speaker 1 (00:23:11): Okay, so we are going to just walk around. There's some hanging photos and we're basically just walking around those and onto the other side, still up against the red wall, the piece called Chest of Drawers by John Mayer. Speaker 2 (00:23:28): Now Russell, describe to me what you see. Speaker 1 (00:23:32): Oh, this is usually my game. You've turned it around on me. Oh, man. Well, I see a chest of drawers and on it, so it's green and it is very decorated. All around the edge are painted yellow and red, alternating flowers on the edge of the whole piece of furniture. And then on each drawer there are two birds on each one and also mostly red and yellow and color. There's a little black mixed in here and there. And the birds are all surrounding, there's a flower in the center of each drawer, and then the birds are on either side of the flower and the birds on the top. And I only am saying this because you pointed it out to me earlier, so I'm cheating a little bit, are facing away. And all the other birds are facing inward. So it's a little interesting. Speaker 2 (00:24:25): And the drawers, are they the same size? Speaker 1 (00:24:28): Oh, good point. No, the bottom drawer is the biggest and then they get smaller as they go up. So the tallest, the top most one is the thinnest of the drawers. Speaker 2 (00:24:41): Okay. And another question, not even looking at the name. Is this a clue in there, which would tell you, I mean what origin it comes from, who at least the painter, if not designer, and the car of this? She says, it says Yna 1829 and yna is the German word for January. So in Austria and Switzerland and in Germany, yna means January. Speaker 1 (00:25:13): Oh, and you said this specifically Austria and German Speaker 2 (00:25:18): And Swiss, Speaker 1 (00:25:19): But you told me earlier, is there another word for January too? Yeah, Speaker 2 (00:25:23): Ua. The Germans now mostly say ua. The Austrians. And part of, if I'm not mistaken, Switzerland still say Yna, but in the calendar when you open in Germany, it always says Yanir. Oh, Speaker 1 (00:25:36): Okay. It Speaker 2 (00:25:36): Has changed gradually into ua, but it has got the same base. And I looked at it as, I wasn't quite sure if I should read the story of the birds from up to bottom or from bottom to up. But then I thought maybe there are two birds who don't know each other. There the bags are turned to each other and suddenly they have got this little worm or whatever they have, they are going to share it, they're facing each other. And then suddenly this flower blooms the flower in the middle blooms and they look really nice. And also the red color, maybe they're now really in love. And then at the very bottom, you see again, I don't know, they're not quite at the top and not quite at the bottom, but something, there's more as if they have established more. You see, they are more leaves to it. The flour has grown too. The middle of flour, I mean they're two separate ones, then it becomes one and it becomes a huge one and it becomes even more and bigger. So maybe there's a story to the whole thing. Speaker 1 (00:26:40): Well, that's true. You know what? I didn't notice that the, so it's funny, you think of them as the same birds. I think that each pair of birds looks totally different. To me, the colors are different. They have different crests on their head. But I think the flower is interesting. I do see what you're saying there, that there seems to actually be a narrative almost of this plant that's growing. And I think you're right to read it the way the order you read it, which is top to bottom because of the way that plant grows. And that's something I totally did not see at all when I first glanced at it. I just sort of like, yeah, there's some birds and some plants. That's how I look at stuff. If Speaker 2 (00:27:22): You read it the other way from bottom to the top, it has a total different meaning. Speaker 1 (00:27:27): Well, it's a little sadder, I guess. Yeah, Speaker 2 (00:27:30): There the first very prospective, I mean everything is nice and glamorous, and then they suddenly become, and then at the top they become distant. They have turned the backs if they had a fight. Speaker 1 (00:27:41): But I like your reading too, where it's the same birds that are falling in love and then transforming. And that's kind of a nice thought that the birds are also growing almost like the plant, because you have the birds get a little more extravagant looking by the bottom. Especially with this plumage on the top of its head. They seem like very fancy birds. The birds in the top just sort of, they're like, oh yeah, it's a bird. I dunno. Something you'd see outside, it's like a robin or something. And then they get a little more detailed and extravagant there. Speaker 2 (00:28:17): And I realized each of the drawers has got a keyhole, so you can lock the Speaker 1 (00:28:22): Drawer. Speaker 2 (00:28:24): So I dunno if the same key would fit all four locks or not, or if each had a different key. So anyhow, you could protect your items too. So most likely you would put some valuables in there or something you didn't want the kids to go and touch. Speaker 1 (00:28:42): Lock the kids out of the drawer. Alright, what did you want to look at next? Speaker 2 (00:28:48): Shall we still stay here or shall we go over to the other gallery? Speaker 1 (00:28:52): You know what, Speaker 2 (00:28:53): Let's Speaker 1 (00:28:53): Talk about the carousel figure because we're right behind. It's right behind us. And it's close. I'd say let's go ahead and take a look at the carousel and then maybe we'll head over. Speaker 2 (00:29:04): Usually when you say carousel, what comes to your mind? What kind of an animal did people usually ride on? Speaker 1 (00:29:11): Horses. Speaker 2 (00:29:12): Horses. But do we have good horses here? Speaker 1 (00:29:15): Not here. Speaker 2 (00:29:17): We have got something more exotic. We have got an elephant and we have got a rabbit and a giant rabbit. Speaker 1 (00:29:23): Yeah, very big. Speaker 2 (00:29:25): And nowadays, do people go on carousels or merry-go-round? No, they prefer the, I mean, the kids nowadays go, I Speaker 1 (00:29:33): Don't know. Have you been to Carol Anne's carousel Speaker 3 (00:29:36): Downtown? Speaker 2 (00:29:36): No, I haven't been. I have seen it, but I haven't been Speaker 1 (00:29:38): There. Yeah, I was just down there the other day and it is quite popular. It's Speaker 2 (00:29:42): Popular. Speaker 1 (00:29:43): I think as long as there are children, there will be carousels. I don't think they're going away. Speaker 2 (00:29:49): Mind you, grownups love to sit on carousel figures too. Speaker 1 (00:29:52): Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:29:53): I mean that gives it, child in us comes to life again. We give ourselves permission to Speaker 1 (00:29:59): Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll tell you actually, a big part of why I think that carousel is fun and why I would think this carousel would be fun is because they are filled with, there are other animals than horses. And at Carroll Ann's carousel, the horses are all so different. And each one is styled like the observatory or the zoo. So you have all these different styles of animals and things. So the October fest horses wearing later. So all of that stuff just makes it fun to pick your animal. Speaker 1 (00:30:34): You get on. And I think that's what is the appeal is you're like, I want to sit on this one. And there's almost this moment of picking the animal that sort of says something about your identity. And especially kids, I work with kids quite a lot. That's one of the easiest things to get them to talk about is like, well, if you could turn into an animal, what would you turn into? Because they think about this a lot. The idea that I might have to transform into an animal so I better know what my options are. So they really think about that a lot. And so the kids are usually very, they know what they want to ride. And I know when I went there, I knew what I wanted to ride right away, which was the cicada. Oh, right, Speaker 2 (00:31:18): Okay. But I also see it as a marketing strategy because today I want to ride the elephant. Next week I come back and ride the rabbit. Speaker 1 (00:31:27): Absolutely. Yeah. You got to try 'em all. Speaker 2 (00:31:30): And how many times do I come back? Mean depending. That is Speaker 1 (00:31:33): A Speaker 2 (00:31:34): Good way of tricking and alluring me back again and again and have the different fields of different animals and the different sensation they give to me. I mean the power, the speed or whatever, even if it's all at the same speed going around. But still, I might in my own mind feel different. Speaker 1 (00:31:51): That's so true. I never thought about that. But carousels, that's a really good marketing plan is like you got to catch 'em all. It's like Pokemon. It's like the Pokemon of the 19th century carousels. They got there first Speaker 2 (00:32:06): And then having the exotic animals. I mean, the rabbits is a rabbit, but an exotic animal, an elephant riding an elephant, not that many people have the opportunity to write a real elephant. And now you have, Speaker 1 (00:32:19): Especially in Brooklyn where this is from. I mean honestly, if you think about it in Brooklyn, a rabbit's fairly exotic too. There's not probably a ton of them running around in the middle of a city, so you don't see a lot of rabbits in urban areas. And of course it's a giant rabbit too, so that makes it fun. Well, let's just zoom ahead Speaker 2 (00:32:39): And Speaker 1 (00:32:39): We're going to go to the other side of the exhibition. So we're going to walk back towards Speaker 2 (00:32:46): See one by Shimel again, the tiger and the la Man. I mean Speaker 1 (00:32:51): It's Speaker 2 (00:32:51): Perfect. I mean, again, how nature, Speaker 1 (00:32:54): Yeah, so it's Speaker 2 (00:32:55): Huge and we human beings are really nothing that is a little doll in the mouth. Speaker 1 (00:33:00): Oh yeah. The scale is definitely not accurate, but it's effective and a story. So yeah, we're walking, if you're kind of going back towards the beginning of the exhibit, and then we're going to pass into the other half of the show past the first wall with the still lives on it. And then in the middle of the room you'll see this case that has a game board in the middle of it. And that's what we are looking at now. Speaker 2 (00:33:26): And what would you say, what kind of a game, how many people could play this game? What kind of a game is that? Speaker 1 (00:33:32): Oh, geez, that's a good question. I don't know. Let's look at the label. I know. Yeah, that's cheating. Wow, that's a good question. So I'm trying to figure out, so we've got how many different colors here? Speaker 2 (00:33:46): Four Speaker 1 (00:33:46): Colors. Okay. Yeah, Speaker 2 (00:33:47): Four colors. And I see four set of dyes. Are they dyes? So what are they? Speaker 1 (00:33:52): Yeah, I mean the markings on them are totally dice. The way that the one, the two, the three, four way they are arranged, the four and the five, that's got to be relating to dice because of just the patterns on those. So yeah, I mean it definitely seems like some kind of board game, but man, I could not begin to suss out the rules of this board game. Speaker 2 (00:34:20): It would keep the family busy, wouldn't it? Speaker 1 (00:34:24): If just trying to figure out what the rules of this game are. I like this centerpiece that has all the different potential roll of the dye. You could have, although I just noticed, I was like, there's more than six on there, two is repeated a couple of times, and then there's this cross in the middle with arrows going around A clockwise. Like roundabout. Speaker 2 (00:34:48): Yeah, clockwise. Speaker 1 (00:34:49): Yeah. It's like, I don't know what that means. Speaker 2 (00:34:53): And these are the round ones. Are they dyes too or are there places where you, or are there stuff which you move? I don't know. Speaker 1 (00:35:00): Yeah, I wonder if the goal is, I'm guessing just that the goal is to probably pass around the board and a certain to arrive back at a certain point, just a guess. And then maybe by going around the middle, you're gambling on whether you can take a shortcut or possibly be sent way off course, maybe. I don't know. Just a guess. Speaker 2 (00:35:25): When I looked at it first, it reminded me the closest what came to my mind, which I could relate to it was that snake and ladder Speaker 1 (00:35:33): Shoots and ladders. Yeah. Shoots Speaker 2 (00:35:34): And ladders. Speaker 1 (00:35:34): Yeah. Sometimes I Speaker 2 (00:35:35): Have learned as snake and Speaker 1 (00:35:37): Lion. Yeah, it's called both. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah, you'll see it both ways. Speaker 2 (00:35:40): First I thought maybe it's that, but then the more I looked at it, the more I became confused. Speaker 1 (00:35:47): Yeah, it is really complicated. There's almost so many paths that it starts to almost feel kind of maybe, probably not the most carefully designed game is my guess. I mean, just because there's almost so many paths that one can take that it makes me wonder if there's almost too many options or something. I would be curious to see how this really plays and maybe certain colors can only travel on certain. If you're playing as red, you can only travel on the red or on the yellow or white spots Speaker 2 (00:36:21): Like a highway. Speaker 1 (00:36:23): Yeah, that might be part of the rules maybe. I'm not sure. Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:36:29): But it's an interesting, and it looks also nice. It's like an artwork itself, isn't it? You can hang it on the wall. Speaker 1 (00:36:37): Yeah, it is. I mean, it's so symmetrical and it is really, really pretty just by itself. Yeah. I'm looking at these little spaces that kind of lead into the curvy paths that have a three on them, which is kind of interesting. And I'm wondering if that's the entry to get into there. You have to roll a three or there's the spaces that I take as a start and stop spot are marked with fours or are they fives? I can't tell if that's a.in the middle too. Speaker 2 (00:37:08): Yeah, that is. Speaker 1 (00:37:11): Yeah, that's a head scratcher. Speaker 2 (00:37:13): If that confused you, maybe there is another game we can play. And what they have done is cleverly enough, they have used the other side of the board and put another game on it. Speaker 1 (00:37:25): Oh. As we walked to the other side, I read the last line of this label answered my question, which the game to be played on the other side with its unfamiliar number of spaces and placement of pathways remains a mystery. Speaker 2 (00:37:37): No wonder Speaker 1 (00:37:38): That sounds like a good challenge though, to come up with how do you play this game to have somebody create new rules for it that work? Ooh, I like this. Okay, now Speaker 2 (00:37:50): You know why I chose it. Speaker 1 (00:37:51): Now I am like, you got my wheels turning. This is a program, Zoe. We can do this. We can make a board game out of it where we figure out, oh, this would be, I like this. Speaker 2 (00:38:04): Yeah. And that seems to be a more or less like a chess game aboard. I mean, Speaker 1 (00:38:12): Yeah, either checkers or chess checkers. Yeah. Does it say on the label, whether it was chess or checkers or both? Speaker 2 (00:38:19): It says parties parti. Speaker 1 (00:38:23): Oh, okay. Well it says no, Speaker 2 (00:38:25): No, Speaker 1 (00:38:26): It says this hand painted board resembles when used for peri with a checkerboard on its reverse. Speaker 2 (00:38:31): So Speaker 1 (00:38:32): They're saying, yeah, that's kind of like a lot of peri boards have checkers on the back. Speaker 2 (00:38:39): So I thought it's very smart. You use the same board, you flip it over Speaker 1 (00:38:44): And Speaker 2 (00:38:44): You have got a total different game and you have got another entertainment. Speaker 1 (00:38:48): And that's one of my things that I love about this piece too, is the way you can see the paint worn away on the edges that touch the table. Because you can tell that it was used and flipped and used on both sides because those edges are worn down on both sides. So that's really nice. Speaker 2 (00:39:07): And what do we have got on your right hand right now? Speaker 1 (00:39:10): Right, so if we just turn right kind of back towards where we came in, we have what is called the crazy quilt, which is from Cincinnati. Speaker 2 (00:39:20): Very good. Yeah, Speaker 1 (00:39:22): That's great. I can read. And Speaker 2 (00:39:27): Quilt is mostly, I mean, they would put together I pieces of cloth and make something useful out of it. Speaker 1 (00:39:34): I Speaker 2 (00:39:35): Mean from old dresses from here and there, cutoffs and so on. They would make a blanket, and in those days they didn't have center heating. The house would be really, really cold. I mean, there was a fireplace or just an oven there to keep the house warm. Often people would wake up and the ice and the cup was frozen in the wintertime. Imagine New England. I mean, it's really cold. And to do something warm, I mean a quilt normally has got the top beautiful layer of different kind of patches, patchwork, and then it has got more or less just a plain cloth underneath it. And in between it, they put cotton, mostly a wool, and then to make sure that they stay put. So they would sew it Speaker 1 (00:40:23): And Speaker 2 (00:40:23): Girls would start doing, I mean, quilting as soon as they learned how to sow. And they would do, and actually I read somewhere by the time they did the 13th quilt, it would be time for them to get married. It would be the quilt which they would take home as a bride Speaker 1 (00:40:42): And Speaker 2 (00:40:45): Sowing it all together. I mean the three layers together, they will call it a quilt bee. And were friends and sisters and siblings and our neighbors would come together, would sit around it and they all would sow it. So it would be a social occasion to just sow a quilt. Speaker 1 (00:41:03): Yeah, it's always a nice, I always love that about quilts, the idea you have this giant piece that is made up of many smaller units and then the idea that a lot of people would also come together to make that. It's a nice reflection of the object itself. This thing is reflecting the way it was made, which I really like. And this quilt, I mean, we haven't really talked about the sort of insanity of it, but it is pretty looking. I mean, it's called crazy quilt for a reason. Each one of these squares is just absolutely kind of chaotic. It's pretty crazy. Speaker 2 (00:41:44): Very colorful. Speaker 1 (00:41:46): Very Speaker 2 (00:41:46): Colorful. The red, the blue, the white, the green, I mean the brown. I mean it's just beautiful. And then the roses in there, the horseshoe in there, everything, the butterfly, the flowers. It just is giving you a lot of information. And yeah, it's just a beautiful quilt. And apparently it's also dedicated to somebody. And the initials we see, we w e b if I'm not mistaken in there. Speaker 1 (00:42:17): Yeah, it says it probably refers to a Webster Burkhart. Speaker 2 (00:42:21): Yeah. And there's a Latin phrase in there, tb, maximo, nato. And it's Speaker 1 (00:42:28): Do you speak Latin too? Speaker 2 (00:42:29): No, unfortunately not. Speaker 1 (00:42:30): I was going to ask, and I'm thinking that, I'm like, I bet she speaks Latin too. She's like, how many? Do you speak five languages? No, Speaker 2 (00:42:37): No, no, only three. Speaker 1 (00:42:38): Only three. Okay. All right. Well, only three. Oh, well, Speaker 2 (00:42:42): And it says this quilt may have celebrated a Webster's birth. Speaker 1 (00:42:49): Yeah, I was going to ask you to translate the Latin, but I'm guessing the NATO is something about born just because of the roots, like nay, like na, Speaker 2 (00:42:57): And it goes Maximo Na, I think it goes to a male, not a female, but a male. Speaker 1 (00:43:04): Oh, okay. Speaker 2 (00:43:05): Connection. But I'm not a hundred percent sure. But there we have got a fish. I mean we have got everything in Speaker 1 (00:43:10): Here, the little details in the quilt themselves of the fish and the other flowers that you get in there. So it's like both totally abstract, but then you get these little details as well. Speaker 2 (00:43:26): I mean all those sowed in, I mean, yep. There is so much to see. And one thing we should not forget are our Speaker 1 (00:43:37): Oh yeah, the big wooden figures. So we are turning around and we're walking towards the big wooden figures. You can't miss 'em. They make themselves very known. Speaker 2 (00:43:50): Yeah. One of them is called dude, the other is called the Girl of the period. And what does she have in her hand? Speaker 1 (00:43:58): A cigar. A Speaker 2 (00:43:59): Cigar. And why would somebody carve a figure of such a beautiful lady with a cigar in her hand? Speaker 1 (00:44:07): Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm assuming, is she outside of a smoke shop or is that Speaker 2 (00:44:14): Most likely? Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:44:15): Yeah, that was my guess. Just because just knowing that we have the cigar, cigar shop Indian over there, and that's typically what I associate these figures with. Speaker 2 (00:44:25): Yeah. And apparently things haven't changed still. I mean, a beautiful lady with a cigar attracting the customers, so to Speaker 1 (00:44:32): Say, right? Even though it would probably be improper for a lady to smoke, it's not about that. It's about attracting the clientele. Speaker 2 (00:44:43): Now the Indian one, which you see is on a pedestal, was a wheels on there. Do you know why the wheels are there? Speaker 1 (00:44:52): I don't. Speaker 2 (00:44:52): Apparently wood. It's Pinewood and it's really heavy. Speaker 1 (00:44:57): And what Speaker 2 (00:44:57): The store owner would do, he would wheel in and out the, how do you call it? His shop sign. And so I dunno if these had wheels before or not, but now they're only on a platform. But that one, the majority of them had a wheel so that the owner could wheel it in at night when he closed the shop and push it out again during the daytime. So it was an easy way of soon they learn the experience and knew what to do. So that is a way of attracting business and telling people from far away what kind of a store they're expecting. I mean, in front of us, we have got there on the other side, a set of teeth, so to say was, and it's a dentist sign. And here we have got this for the tobacco shop. Speaker 1 (00:45:50): Yeah. I just keep looking at, I love that this one is just called dude Speaker 2 (00:45:56): And what is this dude doing? Speaker 1 (00:45:58): Well, it's so funny just because we think, I don't know, I think of dude is such a new word and it's not at all apparently, and I love this quote in 18 86, 1 Carver recalled dudes had quite a go for a while. I've got fully 25 dudes around Brooklyn and New York now though dudes are on the wane. I've got fully 25 dudes around. Dudes are on the wane. No, dude, they're not dudes never go away. Speaker 2 (00:46:34): So figures that will be in front maybe of a store or clothing. Speaker 1 (00:46:39): Yeah, Speaker 2 (00:46:40): I mean cigar, tobacco, I mean all sorts of, even in our old little gallery in the museum, which is our permanent gallery, so to say, for our folk art, we do have also shop signs there. I mean the pipe, which we have got actually a picture of it on this Speaker 1 (00:46:57): Side. Right, right. Yeah. You can see the, it's kiir, right? The pipe that's in our folk art gallery. If you look at the very top of this photo that's hanging here, you can see it up there as it would've been hung. Speaker 2 (00:47:09): Nowadays we have got neon lights and all electronic signs indicating what the shop is and what they have to sell and so on. But in those days they had just figures and then it's really nicely done. Again, the carousel figures, these are also done by professionals and most likely more than one person worked on it. Speaker 1 (00:47:32): Well, I would love to look at this piece. I know we've gone a little long, but I'd love to look at this piece with the church here. Oh Speaker 2 (00:47:39): Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:47:39): We had talked a lot about this before. I know you saw a lot in this piece and I was really, I'm really interested in it. I know I read it a little bit differently than you did first, at least in the way I look at it. And to me, I immediately think of this as a comic book because that's just how I think of things. And I think of it as three panels and a comic where you're seeing the exact same scene, but just what's going on in the scene is changing Speaker 2 (00:48:06): A little movie. Speaker 1 (00:48:07): Yeah, yeah. It's very cinematic. Speaker 2 (00:48:09): And this one is now a historical event happening. Speaker 1 (00:48:13): The Speaker 2 (00:48:13): Other paintings, which we have and so on, are not as such historic in this exhibition, but this is a historic event, as I said, a little movie as if the news reporter is telling us what's happening. Yeah, Speaker 1 (00:48:24): It's kind of, yeah, it's a good way to think of it as reporting. That's interesting. Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:48:28): Now what do we have got in the first picture? Speaker 1 (00:48:32): Just looks like a church, Speaker 2 (00:48:33): Like a church, Speaker 1 (00:48:34): Nothing going on and people riding Speaker 2 (00:48:35): Their own. And we see in here again how at that time people were dressed and how the roads were Speaker 1 (00:48:44): And Speaker 2 (00:48:44): Kids playing a few people around and having a cane and so on. And somebody is pointing to the church. And we have got the church with a time on it. What time is it? It's around four 30 I would say, or 4 32. Speaker 1 (00:48:57): Yeah, it looks about right. Speaker 2 (00:48:59): So four 30 around that. And it seems to be all quiet. The sky is blue, some clouds in there, and the wind is going from our side, from right to left. I mean, what would you say? And apparently has a little bit of water, isn't it? Speaker 1 (00:49:14): Yeah, it looks kind of a little puddle Speaker 2 (00:49:15): Or something of water and dirt road and a few houses around it. And we are facing, we see the entrance of the church, but mostly we seeing the side of the church. All right. And what happens in the next Speaker 1 (00:49:31): Bedlam? I mean, it takes quite a turn for the dark. Here we have suddenly all these people who are ransacking the church, it looks like people are throwing things out the windows, which are all broken now. We see a fire starting in one of the windows, people approaching with axes. Speaker 2 (00:49:53): Yes. And more and more people are coming and it seems to be like a fight is going on Speaker 1 (00:50:01): And Speaker 2 (00:50:01): There are people on the tower there. One is holding the American flag and one is having his hat just saluting or something holding, Speaker 1 (00:50:11): Taking Speaker 2 (00:50:11): His hat off. And it's around now, 20 to seven. Speaker 1 (00:50:16): So Speaker 2 (00:50:18): A Speaker 1 (00:50:18): Couple hours have passed by, passed by. Speaker 2 (00:50:20): And the whole scene, the quiet scene has changed. And people are bringing wooden bars as if they want to just destroy everything in this church. Speaker 1 (00:50:33): Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:50:34): Now why would they do that? It's against who? Speaker 1 (00:50:38): Yeah. Well why don't you tell us? Speaker 2 (00:50:40): Apparently the Irish and being Catholic and Irish, they weren't so popular. And there was again, apparently this war between them and those, so to say. And here is apparently that's happening. That scene is happening. Speaker 1 (00:50:58): And then the last panel we see is just the absolute destruction of the church. It's just on fire burning. And everyone's just kind of standing around watching Speaker 2 (00:51:11): The man with a flag is downstairs, it's nighttime. We see a half moon, we see some stars, more clouds. It's getting dark. I mean, it's an early evening I would say. And then we see even in the back that the people are pouring water. First I thought they're trying to combat the fire and get that done, but no, that's not possible anymore. The whole thing is engulfed in flames. But maybe they're protecting their own homes. They're pouring water on their own roofs and so on, because the houses which are not far away to Speaker 1 (00:51:44): Protect them, try to keep them from catching. Speaker 2 (00:51:46): And people are all around it. There's so many people now, I would say maybe more than a hundred people, more maybe 200 people standing right now around the church. And what time is it? It's five to nine almost. And what I thought it was funny, even with all this heat coming up with the flames and so on. But again, I'll pull the weather, water is still showing the same direction. Speaker 1 (00:52:14): Oh yeah, the Speaker 2 (00:52:14): Heat. Speaker 1 (00:52:15): Yeah, the weather vein at top. Speaker 2 (00:52:17): Sorry, weather. Wayne hasn't changed direction whatsoever. Speaker 1 (00:52:22): Yeah. I mean it's hard to not think about this in relationship today. For me to think about a time when the Irish were the outsiders, and to think about a time when that was just how quickly we can turn somebody into the other. Speaker 2 (00:52:44): Exactly. Speaker 1 (00:52:46): That somebody can sow that now nobody thinks of the Irish as the other. I mean, nobody I know does at least, and it's interesting to think about that in relationship to today. And the people that we look at and we fear and we want removed. I say we, but not be me at all. Understand we're royal big. Speaker 2 (00:53:11): And what I like about this is that we as a visitor, we see the three panels first and then we come to the label. Speaker 1 (00:53:19): Yeah, that's true. Speaker 2 (00:53:20): It allows us to try to figure out what's happening here. And then we get to the label and it says, burning the Old South church. And this tree of paintings is by John Hilling. A sign painter by profession depicts an attack on Old South Church in Bath, Maine. The attack occurred on June 6th, 1854 during a time when a wave of anti Irish Catholic sentiment swept the Eastern United States. Speaker 1 (00:53:50): And it doesn't really tell us too much about what the artist's feeling on this subject matter is, but I just feel like it's hard to look at a burning church ever as being seen as a positive thing. I can't imagine that in any way the artist was like, yeah, this was a good thing. It seems like he's, by showing this destruction, it seems to me a pretty pointed criticism of it. Speaker 2 (00:54:17): Yeah. I Speaker 1 (00:54:17): Don't know. Speaker 2 (00:54:18): As I said, a reporter on what you see on the news, I mean, it's coming and it's showing and people, and it's a documentation of a historic event. I never knew that they burned churches. Speaker 1 (00:54:32): Yeah. It seems like you would've probably made the same leap I did to think about this in today's terms. I mean, it seems like something that would be affecting you pretty greatly. I mean, I remember when we first heard about the travel ban, you were traveling and we were literally, everyone in the office goes like, is Zore okay? Where are we going to see? Again? We were really scared. We were really worried. Speaker 2 (00:55:05): Maybe I have to say that because I was born in Iran and my father is Iranian, so Speaker 1 (00:55:10): That's Speaker 2 (00:55:10): What you're referring to. So yeah, that was something I said, well, yeah, it was really weird. Speaker 1 (00:55:18): I mean, it was something that directly affected us and this affected you more, obviously. But it was just this thing. It happened and we were really freaked out by it. And it's just like, it's hard to imagine somebody being like, no, Zora can't come back. It's so strange to think about that we're all, what's her passport situation? Where's her password from? We're so worried about that. Speaker 2 (00:55:46): Thank goodness when coming back. The customer office was really nice. It was really, really nice. I was prepared for everything. I mean, I was prepared that they say, you are not allowed to enter the country anymore just because you were born somewhere. But well, let's put politics aside and Speaker 1 (00:56:02): Then Speaker 2 (00:56:02): Go back again. Speaker 1 (00:56:03): I mean, that's the thing though. I know I am sure I'm putting you on the spot, but I know it's, I feel like this is political. It's hard not to look at this and be like, oh, well that's the past. I look at this and I'm like, it's not the past. And we see stories. We talked about this as a news report of it's time, and it's like we're seeing stories of churches and places being attacked and graffiti and things that have happened. It's really depressing to feel like, oh, we haven't actually come that far. Speaker 2 (00:56:39): No, human beings don't change so easily. Speaker 1 (00:56:42): Yeah. But I mean, I think this is a piece that maybe people can learn from to just think that it's very easy to make somebody else the other. It's very easy to turn anyone into a monster and to see that this was done to the Irish Speaker 2 (00:56:59): Not Speaker 1 (00:56:59): That long ago and how quickly we've changed. I guess that's maybe the silver lining for me when talking about today, is the people that are being turned into the scapegoats of today and turned into the boogeyman. There's going to come a time where we look at that as ridiculous. We will look back at it and go, well, that was silly. Speaker 2 (00:57:22): I hope so. Speaker 1 (00:57:24): I really hope so. Yeah. Maybe not in our lifetime, but I think it's going to happen. Speaker 2 (00:57:28): And now, sorry, but small detail. I don't see the water in this puddle anymore. Speaker 1 (00:57:34): Yeah, it looks like the puddle maybe use Speaker 2 (00:57:35): It well, Speaker 1 (00:57:37): Or Speaker 2 (00:57:37): Is it only dark now and it's nighttime? Speaker 1 (00:57:40): Yeah, I was noticing that too. You pointed it out. And that was another detail I would've never noticed. But the puddle in the front of the painting at the foreground, in the beginning, it seems to be full. And then it dissolves more in each one. And I wonder if it's about the heat of the fire Speaker 2 (00:57:56): Maybe. And you see the whole surrounding is glowing. I mean, it's an orange in the ground here and people are in a distance. It shows that the heat, I mean nobody is close. I mean here, you see when they're fighting, they're close to the church, but now they're all distancing themselves as much as possible. Speaker 1 (00:58:15): That's true. That's an interesting idea too, of the distancing of the people and almost like, we did this, but now we're not, everyone's back. And almost like it's hard to tell who was responsible. And Speaker 2 (00:58:32): Here he's holding the flag again high up. Speaker 1 (00:58:35): So Speaker 2 (00:58:35): I dunno the message what the painter was trying to give, but yeah. Speaker 1 (00:58:41): Yeah. I mean I remember you kind of asking before when we sort of walked by this, you kind of wondered if maybe the person with the flag in the second painting, who's up in the bell tower holding it, is he from the church help us? Or is he Speaker 2 (00:58:59): We are Americans too, everybody else Speaker 1 (00:59:01): Type of thing? Or are they part of the angry mob too? And it's like, I guess you really could go either way with that. I'm not sure. My read on it would probably be the angry mob. It's the same. I think it's Speaker 2 (00:59:16): Because he appears here. Again, if he wasn't here, I would say maybe, but now he's appearing holding the flag high. I mean, Speaker 1 (00:59:25): Yeah. It seems to me like when I see a place being ransacked and I see a person waving a flag at the top of it, it's sort of a declaration of conquer. Speaker 2 (00:59:35): Yeah, you're right. Speaker 1 (00:59:36): That's kind of how I read it. But Speaker 2 (00:59:38): You're right, Speaker 1 (00:59:39): I dunno. Speaker 2 (00:59:40): But here I was trying to give the feel of help us. We are part of you. We belong to you. We are all the same. I mean, we are people, we are Americans. We are here like everybody else. But no, apparently my interpretation was not the correct one. Speaker 1 (00:59:55): Well, I don't know. I don't don't know the answer to that. I just feel like that's, Speaker 2 (00:59:59): No, I'm leaning towards your interpretation. I mean, I think that's more accurate. Speaker 1 (01:00:03): I think it seems unlikely that that guy would be, yeah, like you're saying, kind of still be standing around probably after that. If he was one of Irish. Speaker 2 (01:00:15): And as I said, he wouldn't be standing here. Speaker 1 (01:00:18): Probably not. Well, thank you so much for looking at art with me today, Zorra. Speaker 2 (01:00:24): Thank you. It was a pleasure and I thought 20 minutes will be a lot. Speaker 1 (01:00:29): Then we talked for over an hour. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we Also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are a shared legacy kart in America, William KenRidge. More sweetly play the dance Tiffany Glass painting with color and light. And Aela Kaga. All the flowers are for me. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. Our theme song is Efron Mu by Balal. And as always, don't forget to rate and review us on iTunes. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.