Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): If you look on the back of a burning net ticket, it says You entered the risk of your own death. I don't know what a festival or the planet that has a disclaimer on the back that you could die and it's your responsibility to make sure you don't. Speaker 1 (00:26): Welcome to Art Palace produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool people are two burners. Mike Little a k a Brew Bear, who is one of two Kentucky regional contacts for Burning Man and Jeffrey Miller, a k a Mr. Pancakes. So why don't you guys introduce yourselves? Okay. Speaker 3 (00:59): My name is Mike Little, my ply name is Brew Bear. Speaker 2 (01:04): And my name is Jeffrey Miller and I go by Mr. Pancakes on the P playa. Speaker 1 (01:07): So I'm just kind of curious, how did each of you get into Burning Man? How did you find out about it and how did you start becoming an active participant? Speaker 3 (01:17): So my wife showed me, her friends got married on the play I think in 2012. And I've heard of party managers in the sense that I think a lot of people do. And when she showed me the picture of the art, I was just blown away. I'm like, I have to go there. I'm like, I need to be there. And I think it was in 2013 with doing little research, I got tickets and then after doing the research I'm like, I'm going to die in the desert. I'm not ready for this. So I sold my tickets via step and then we started doing our research and kind of understanding the culture. I'd actually reached out to the regional context in Ohio and Kentucky to get more information, especially on how can we get to the play from here. And then I found out about the regional network actually, and I attended my first burn, I think it was in 2015 at Mosaic Experiment. That's a little burn in Rutland, Ohio. It's called Mosaic. It rained, it was muddy, it was disgusting, and I fell in love. So I've been hooked in the culture since 2014. 2014. Speaker 1 (02:27): Cool. And what about you, Jeffrey? Speaker 2 (02:30): I think I first became exposed to Burning Man in the early 1990s. Actually a friend of mine and I had seen an article, an early article on the Burn. I think it was somewhere in its 10th year or something. And I think that was the first time I became aware of it. It wasn't until early 2001 that some friends of mine who were living in California actually went to the burn and when they got back they were like, you have to go. So they goaded me for a of years and my first trip out to the ply was in 2004. I think the capacity out there was maybe 30,000 people, 25, 30,000 people. I returned 2006, 2007 in 2010. So I've been out to BlackRock City four times. I myself have never done a regional burn, which I would love to do. Yeah. Speaker 1 (03:25): So Mike said that you were kind of convinced by just seeing the art. And I'm kind of curious what convinced you from the early nineties to 2004? What flipped for you or what made you decide to go? Speaker 3 (03:38): I think Speaker 2 (03:40): My friends that had gone out there, like anybody, when you ask them what the Burning Man experience is like and what it's like being out there, everybody's mouth, well, it's kind of like this or it's kind like that, and it's kind like Mad Max meets Rocky Horror Picture Show meets some apocalyptic tank girl. I think these people that I was friends with, and I think it was all inclusive, was like they showed me pictures of the playa. They showed me pictures of the art. I don't think it was so solely specifically about the art itself other than just that sense of creativity and that was going on out there and of course some of the stuff that I was reading about. Speaker 2 (04:29): So it was a little bit of all of that intrigue of what exactly what was going on there. The camp I got involved with, I think one of the reasons they directed me encouraged me to go out there was the camp that I went out with. It wasn't an art theme camp. I didn't live in a theme camp itself. It was really a group of people anywhere between probably 40 and 60 people that were out there to have kind of a really deep personal experience to really kind of break yourself down out there and kind of get at your core. So it wasn't just, Hey, let's go out there and party and have a great time and dance till five o'clock in the morning at the fence line. It was like you can really tear into yourself out there and get into your head and have a cathartic experience. And that was kind of the camp that I had gone out to Speaker 1 (05:15): From talking with people. That's something I don't know if I'd necessarily understood about Burning Man before we started taking on this whole project, was that sort of the different structures of camps and how that affects a person's experience on the Playa. And so maybe you guys could just talk a little bit more about what that means, because I'm sure a lot of people are like me who at one point didn't really understand that what these camps are. Speaker 2 (05:42): Yeah, Speaker 3 (05:42): I could spend an hour talking about my camp and camp. Typically Speaker 1 (05:47): It's the magic of editing. Speaker 3 (05:48): So Antonio and I told my camp, I'm not going to make this a scrambles podcast. So our camp, we camp on the nine o'clock side and we are a Speaker 1 (05:58): Explain what that means for people. Speaker 3 (05:59): So Burning Man is like a clock. So it starts I believe at two o'clock and then ends at 10 o'clock. So if anybody at any point says, meet me somewhere, if you look at your hand like a clock, it starts at two and then the roads are numbered. A, I know they go as far as H, maybe L or M as the city expands. So if you said, meet me at 9 45 and H, you can look at your hand literally and say, where's 9 45 on the clock? And then work your way back to the street where H is, and that's where our address, your fiscal address of your campus is. Well that, no, I think that's good. Speaker 1 (06:39): When you tell you're someone at nine o'clock at age, it's like there's 80 camps in that General Vic City and Speaker 3 (06:45): It's Speaker 1 (06:45): How you actually find somebody. When you do, you do. Speaker 3 (06:49): And so my camp, I met at a regional burn and I always tell people that are looking for camps, you'll find the camp. You don't find the camp. I think your camp finds you. I think when you're just around and just naturally having conversations, people go to regional burns and network, don't go there to network, go there to self-express and have a burning experience. I think naturally you'll find your pack of people. Speaker 3 (07:14): And my camp Scrambles brought my wife and I and my wife and I burned together and we met them in 2015 and really started bonding with them in 2016. And we went to Burning Man with them in 2017. And we scrambles, we call ourselves the Scramble Fan. We are a collective group of people located starting in Washington, DC all the way out to San Francisco. They are the most smartest, brilliant, intelligent people I know. They inspire me to be a better person. And most importantly, I think the loving connection that our camp leaders sarge Honey bear, that they've created Speaker 1 (07:54): Such authority. Does everybody in your camp have last name? Part Bear? Speaker 3 (07:59): I am part of the Bear tribe, but Honey Bear did give me my name actually right before Burning Man and it's Sarge is just being of energy and intelligence and just loving. But Sarge was how to run a theme camp and the balance that her and Honey Bear bring to the camp and their structure and the community they've created. Once I spent my first barn with them, I'm like, this is my pack and I get to see them next weekend. So just talking about them, I'm real excited. We're going a burn weekend next weekend to get ready for BlackRock. Our theme Moore lounge, Sarge, when she began to create the camp, she's been going to the play I think 10 years. She really wanted a space to where she can relax and be with other like-minded people. And that's kind of where our camp evolved from. Speaker 1 (08:47): So it's just literally a place for people to go and relax is the main idea of, Speaker 3 (08:52): And then from there, all the activities that we do kind of spawn organically. We have a place to cuddle if that's what you need in that space. We have a pillow fight because who doesn't want to let off a lot of steam? I will say that Sarge does make the best bloody Mary I've ever seen. So look us up for the 10 ingredient Bloody Mary bar that we'll host. And it's really neat that this past year she had an experience where she wants to scream, but living out in DC she's like, there's not a place to scream in dc She doesn't have a car. She can't scream in her apartment. So she tried an event at an original burn called Transform is called Ritualistic Screaming, and it was just such an organic experience and people screaming on a mountain top, they're crying. So now we do ritualistic screaming just to have that outburst. So if you need to let out any energy, we started doing things like that. Speaker 2 (09:46): Cool. Speaker 1 (09:47): So Jeffrey, tell me how that sounds different than sort of the camp you're associated with or what you sort of started with, I guess. Well, Speaker 2 (09:53): Categorically, I mean camps, there are a lot of people who will just go out and just camp and go out to people, a hundred people, and it may not be a theme camp per Speaker 1 (10:02): Se. Speaker 2 (10:04): Camps can register and put themselves on the map as far as this is death to Barbie camp or Spank Me camp or library camp or the post office camp or when you're along the Esplanade, which is the innermost ring, those camps, all of that entertainment, those theme camps, those stages, those music venues, venues being a strong word, are made up of hundreds and hundreds of people who come together to run those particular experiences. But they're all camps, people are all camping in there and that's just part of a larger Burning Man community or a Burning Man family if you want to call it. And these are spaced out throughout all over BlackRock City, but the more nightlife oriented, the more active camps tend to be around the inner rings. Speaker 2 (10:54): My camp was four 20 in the outer ring. We were always kind of kept pushing back to the outer ring. So the gentleman, Paul Mellon, who from Birch Circle who ran put together our camp, had been doing this for probably when I had met him and already been doing chips out to the Playa for probably 10, 12 years. So he was one of the early ventures out there. Paul was an adventure travel coordinator and he really wanted to create a camp. This was before the luxury camp idea was being battled and people surrounding a camp with buses and it was exclusivity. Paul actually built a camp around people who were coming in from out of state to have a place that didn't have to necessarily worry about gear and food and packing, all that stuff because getting to Burning Man is not an easy thing. Speaker 2 (11:43): I mean, you can buy a ticket, but you've got to travel there, you've got to bring all your gear, all your clothes, all your food, all your water, everything. And Paul really wanted to build an experience for people to come and just really get into the burn experience, operate as a community, act as a family, but not necessarily have to worry about where all your food was coming before you came out there. He would take care of all that, but everybody was active in the camp as far as helping the cooks, helping clean, helping community conversations, helping each other, being supportive. So he really built that community and coincidentally I'd say about 50% of the people in those camps, the years I continue to go back with Paul, half of 'em were from out of state or out of country different times of the year. So our camp would evolve from year, from year depending on where people were coming in from. We had people come from Israel, we had people from Italy, we had people from a lot of Canadians, a lot of people from Toronto all over the place as well as from the United States. So from year to year there was kind of this, Paul would grow this family of burners who Speaker 3 (12:49): Maybe say from a group Speaker 2 (12:50): Of maybe three or 400 people that he had over the years kind of built into his family. Maybe anywhere from 50 40 to 80 would come at any particular year. So sometime you'd see repeat people the next year, other times you may not see them for two years. It just kind of depends. And other people then would kind of split off and start their own camps. I saw a lot of that going as well. But we didn't have a theme camp per se. It was just really a strong supportive family camp, or not family camp, there's actually family camp there for people who want to go out with families and kids and want to slightly quieter area. It was just a really strong emotionally supportive community for people who wanted to just go out there and have that experience and know that if things started to unravel, you had kind of a support system there and Paul built that environment around that. Speaker 1 (13:40): Yeah. The reason I wanted to ask so many questions about the camps and things is that I think a lot of people do have a trouble understanding how when you do ask people about what Burning Man is, there are so many different answers and it's sort of like, well, you really can have, the experience I think you want to have is what it seems like from an outsider perspective of it's sort of like going to any city really, right? Absolutely. If you ask somebody, oh, what's New York? And you talk to somebody who's really into music, they're going to give you an answer that's a little more focused on music. If you ask somebody who's really into museums, they're going to tell you about that. If somebody just wants Speaker 2 (14:18): To go to everything, I always thought about Berman, if you put that energy out there, ask for what you want, and chances are you're going to find it. And I do mean anything. Speaker 1 (14:32): It's Speaker 3 (14:32): Funny people ask me because in the default world, default world is often term used the term the world outside of Burning Man. In default world, I pretty laid back, I lounge, I practice Brazilian jitsu and then make crap beer since the brew part. Speaker 2 (14:51): That's why you the Speaker 3 (14:51): Brew bear, brew bear, right? Try to be a big teddy bear. So what I found myself doing at Burning Man, I found the Jiujitsu Camp and now I made amazing friends at the Jiujitsu camp and I helped teach there and I found a group of home brewers that bring 300 kegs. And so it's funny what I do in default road, I naturally tended to do that out at Burning Man because a city of 70,000 amazing people coming together for a couple of weeks. So it's truly the experience that you want it to make. Sometimes there are experiences you don't want being lost in a dust storm and trying to problem solve there or get dehydrated or I feel like if you don't cry at Burning Man at least once, I feel like you didn't have a good experience. I don't know what your thought process is. You're got to cry at least once with a happy or bad, just once. Just once. Speaker 1 (15:44): So that kind of is a good segue when we're talking. One of the reasons when I asked you guys to come in here was to talk about almost as a Burning Man survival guide. And so I kind wanted to start with asking what are the challenges that being at Burning Man presents to a visitor? Speaker 3 (16:02): God, where do we start? Right. I'll give you my top three. Speaker 1 (16:06): Yeah, that's fine. Top three challenges. Speaker 3 (16:10): The elements in the desert are the elements of a desert, and that sounds so elementary, but I mean it is hot. I mean, my first year on Playa, it averaged I think 117 degrees. If people say it's a dry heat, Speaker 3 (16:25): No, 117 degrees is 117 degrees. I feel like I prepared very well because I'm very big on the 10 principles and being very radical, but just preparing the amount of water just to go from one side of the pipe to the other. And then lastly, just like some elective physical, I think self-care out of burn is very important to myself, whether it be taking care of your feet or getting enough sleep or knowing to remove yourself from certain stimulus. I think sometimes people often forget about personal self-care. They're just trying to enjoy every single moment of every hour. That's impossible. So learning how to care for yourself is once you kind of figured that out, I feel like the experience becomes a little bit easier. Speaker 1 (17:12): So FOMO is a challenge on the two. Speaker 3 (17:15): The city's alive 24 7. Speaker 1 (17:16): Yeah, Speaker 2 (17:21): I think he captured it pretty well Speaker 2 (17:24): Until you have the experience. I mean if you look on the back of a burning that ticket, it says you entered the risk of your own death. I mean, I don't know what other festival that you go to and this planet that has a disclaimer on the back that you could die and it's your responsibility to make sure you don't. I think it's hard. I've seen the physical elements out there, the heat, the dust, the playa dust. I've seen it just absolutely make people crazy. I mean just absolutely snap because you are constantly coated. I mean, the ply dust is getting kicked up from the wind, it's getting kicked up from art cars, it's getting kicked up from people walking around. I mean, if there's water trucks going around and it's tamping down some of the water on the roads, but you can't, I mean, you come back from Byron Burning Man and I still have ply dusted bags in some clothes and things like that. So glitter and ply dust never go away. Speaker 3 (18:21): In Speaker 1 (18:21): A society in which Speaker 2 (18:22): Everything is very clean and sterile, it just makes people crazy. You can never always get it off your hands if you have context to put in. So you have to instantly succumb to the fact that you are dirty and that makes people, I'm telling you, it just makes a lot of people crazy. And I said in my camp, I saw a lot of people really just have, and some people have actually left my camp before the burn because they couldn't put up with the dirt, that constant seepage of dirt. So just that constant set of that change of physical care of yourself, moisturizing your feed, making sure you're drinking a lot of water, not knowing how those elements, and especially I think what you said about the sensory experience, it gets to you and I think my credit to my camp leader, to Paul who always put us at the outer rain because he just wanted to be the point in which it wasn't so far that you couldn't get to things or find things, but he wanted to give people the chance to sleep and just have some kind of disconnection. Speaker 2 (19:23): I mean, you can still hear the ply of thumping in the background, but it was a lot different than going 4, 5, 6 rings in and it's just nonstop. But knowing where that sensory overload, because it's everywhere. I mean the art cars, the neons, the clothing that people wear, I mean, I don't know how to, it's living in a chocolate factory nonstop, and if you're not, we're not used to that kind of experience and it can be finding ways to kind of separate your mind from that and breathe and relax and have some just quiet time as much as you can. It's key. It can really overwhelm you. So the combination of those elements is pulverizing to your head and you got to be mindful of it and you have to have people around you who can recognize Speaker 3 (20:09): Absolutely Speaker 2 (20:09): Those things. Speaker 1 (20:10): So you both mentioned foot Speaker 3 (20:12): Care, so I'm kind Speaker 1 (20:13): Of curious about care, foot care. What does that entail? Speaker 3 (20:18): I'm very specific about my foot care because with the play dust being so alkaline is going to crack your skin. And so I found, I went through a couple pairs of boots on your feet the entire time, whether you're on a bike, I do pick one night to where I just walk around my block, my circle, I like to walk, but you're on your feet the entire time, so your feet are going to hurt and the dust will crack your feet. It's almost like tap lips. So if you don't take care of your feet, you just want to tap your feet and then you can't move. So the way to do it is there is a little bit of science vinegar or lemon juice. So at the end of every day, a whole camp does. It's just something we naturally do. We get behind the scenes and we take off all our socks, our boots, and we clean off our feet and then do it with vinegar, clean 'em off. Now me personally, this is where I wear a brand new pair of socks every single day. Once I started doing that, I did that last year and it's like voila. It's like the angels are on your feet because without your feet you can't move Speaker 1 (21:29): And Speaker 3 (21:30): You can't have a good experience. Speaker 2 (21:32): Yeah, Speaker 3 (21:33): I Speaker 2 (21:34): Had say in the experience was, I mean there were days, I mean you had the ability just to wash your feet and then moisturize. I think just for me, I mean comfortable shoes, absolutely. I mean, I see a lot of people walking around the probably just barefooted. I was always shocked by that. And so always having comfortable pairs of shoes to get around because I do like, I do a lot of walking. I mean bike riding, same. But there I've got a ritual with a friend of mine that we'll just get up on usually Friday and just spend most of the day and just walk all the way out to the fence line and then walk there, which is almost a five mile walk from where we camp at least three miles all the way to the fence line and then back. Speaker 3 (22:17): But they have to walk back and then walk back just Speaker 2 (22:21): Stopping at artery zoos. But I mean definitely just keeping your feet from cracking your hands from cracking is really key because yeah, you're right. I mean, I've seen some people with some really seriously splintered feet and then your feet are bleeding and it's never comfortable and what you're doing and it just limits you to a certain degree. I mean, you have to be on a bike more and you don't get to walk as much Speaker 3 (22:43): And then leaving got to accident, go. You got to help tear down your camp and you got to do the l and t, which means leave no trace. It means, so tear down is important, and part of being part of a theme camp is I think there's sweat equity in working really hard with your fellow camp members. If you're unable to help tear down, you're not keeping your part of the camp, especially if you can't do l and t and do the things, that's also part of your responsibility to take care of your feet so you can help out your can. Speaker 1 (23:16): Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about how do you deal with the water situation? What's the practical, I mean, obviously as I was just trying to run this through my head, it's like, well, you obviously can't, if you're flying there, you can't take it all on a plane, so you have to get it somewhere more locally, I would assume. Right? Speaker 3 (23:34): So I'll give you, there's two, three different ways. So if you're not part of a theme camp, so part of getting into the Burning Man, you got to get your ticket. But once you get Reno, how are you getting in there if you're not driving? So if you take the Burner Express and the Burner Express is a way for you to actually bust in from, I think they have in Reno in San Francisco, I believe. Right? So the Burner Express, since you can't physically take in 20 gallons of water, you can actually pre-purchase your water in advance in five gallon increments. If you fly into Reno or Sacramento, I prefer to fly into Sacramento. It's just a little less hectic. Bring it in. And then lastly, a lot of camps, part of being a theme camp, they will help take care of the water Speaker 2 (24:17): Situation. Speaker 3 (24:18): We do these a hundred gallon drums of water. Speaker 2 (24:23): Yeah, because I had a camp leader, he, Paul took care of, and his team took care of the majority of that and also and brought in big drums of water. I will tell you that if you've hit the Walmart in Reno before going out to the, Speaker 1 (24:38): For years, that was kind of our, we coming in from San Francisco because everybody, my Speaker 2 (24:42): Camp, the majority of us would meet in San Francisco and then we'd come into the ply and vans and cars and however we're all getting in together. And Paul liked to bring everybody to experience the trip together Speaker 1 (24:54): From Speaker 2 (24:55): San Francisco into BlackRock City. That was just part of the camp building in that kind of sense of building that Burning Man family before going in. But we always hit Reno, stopped at Reno for something to eat, and then last minute supplies, it was always the Walmart. And the last time I went, it was like Walmart was totally on board with burner sales and burner supplies and selling water and discounts and all kinds of costume stuff and all kinds of crap. So the commercial world, especially the Walmart world of Reno, Nevada got on the Burning Man bandwagon themselves. I'm sure they made a killing after, because every year there was just more and more and more stuff, tents, chairs, everything, and it was all like Burning Man special, and the parking lot was just full of art cars Speaker 3 (25:39): And burners. It feels like a burn it. If you're going Speaker 2 (25:42): To Burning Man, you're flying in. It starts from, I remember I would fly in from Chicago. So being in O'Hare airport and getting on a plane, there's one or two or three people you're like, oh, I think they're burners. Speaker 1 (25:55): I'm pretty Speaker 2 (25:56): Sure they're burners. And then you start talking medium Marine, then you switch planes in Colorado, in Denver, and then the plane's more full of burners. So the thing you get into the San Francisco Speaker 1 (26:05): Airport, Speaker 2 (26:06): It's just madness. Speaker 3 (26:07): Then you get more people in Burner Close, Speaker 2 (26:09): And then it's all crazy. And then the more and more people in, so as you start kind building and getting closer and closer to BlackRock City, the zoo, it just amassed. So every car you see, people look like stuff flying off on the cars and people spray color painted their cars or the outfits or stuff that people are wearing it. It's crazy how that just builds as you get to BlackRock City. Speaker 3 (26:32): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (26:33): Yeah. Well, I was hoping we could go out to the galleries and look at some art. If you guys are game Speaker 3 (26:39): Absolutely awesome, Speaker 1 (26:40): Let's go. So we are in gallery. We'll just call it one forty eight because it's technically 1 47 through 1 49. So we'll split the difference. We are looking at aps called Shroom and Lumen by an artist collective group called Fold House. So I'm just curious, what is your first impressions of this work when you see it, or how do you feel? It kind of relates to what you might see on the Playa. Speaker 3 (27:19): I mean, this is p Playa art. Speaker 3 (27:21): This is when I first came to the exhibit on opening night. This is one of the first places I came here, and I'm like, my shoulders relaxed. I'm like, I'm at home. I'm like, this is very playa art, something like this. I think you would find it what's called de p Playa. And so when you think of the playa, you have the space in front of the man, the space behind the man, and then you have the space down by the trash fence. And as you get back, the art kind of takes its own identity. And something like this reminded me of something that you would find in deep playa, just the colors and how it works with each other and works off each other. Speaker 1 (27:59): When you say you relaxed, I'm curious, do you not normally probably relax when you come to a museum? Speaker 3 (28:06): Anytime I'm around, Speaker 1 (28:09): It's fine not to. I think a lot of people don't feel relaxed in a museum. Speaker 3 (28:14): I say text, Speaker 1 (28:14): I feel like some people do feel that way, Sono, it's fine. It's Speaker 3 (28:17): Funny. So the term welcome home is something that they say when you enter a burn because it's a very homey type of feeling. And so anytime I get my sense of home, my shoulder just dropped a little bit. Like, and this experience reminded me of actually being on the playa when I first saw it, and I'm back on the P playa just for five minutes or so in the middle of Cincinnati. Speaker 1 (28:42): Yeah. Well, I think it's one of the things that about the exhibition is some of the works have never been on the playa. Some of the pieces were made are made by artists and groups who make things for the lya, but they're sort of commissioned works for the exhibition certainly, and this is one I've definitely seen pictures of on the Lya. Speaker 1 (29:03): I have seen this, I'm not sure if it was recreated in any way or if it's the exact same pieces, but I think in this exact same sort of incarnation was on the Lya as far as I know. I mean, one of the things I liked about it when I first saw it is just the way it uses this material in a really interesting way, which is kind of, we've done a pretty bad job so far of describing what we're looking at, so we can probably, maybe we should do that. So Jeffrey, why don't you describe the sculptures we are standing among. Speaker 3 (29:39): You've got mushroom structures Speaker 2 (29:41): That look like they're corrugated plastic. Speaker 1 (29:43): Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 (29:45): There's some kind of automation in it. So they expand up and change colors, and they look like little mushroom clouds. Speaker 1 (29:51): So there are three very big mushrooms we should probably say. I mean, how the tallest one here, what would you say? That's probably 10 feet or 12 feet, 12 Speaker 2 (30:03): To 15 feet Speaker 1 (30:04): Easily. Speaker 2 (30:05): I mean, I'm six little over six feet tall, Speaker 1 (30:07): So yeah. So probably two of you would reach the easily. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and at their base, they have these sort of little panels that you can step on which change their shape, so they sort of expand and contract, which is another thing you mentioned that are made of this corrugated plastic. It reminds me of, I don't know if it's the exact same material, but it reminds me of the same stuff that you see in political yard signs. Oh, yeah. Like fluted, fluted, Speaker 2 (30:34): Plastic. Speaker 1 (30:34): Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's that same kind of material, and then it looks like it's just kind of scored and folded in different ways so that it creates these rounded shapes, but actually every side of it is completely fly Speaker 2 (30:49): Of dust. Speaker 3 (30:49): Yeah, you can tell fly dust. Oh, Speaker 1 (30:51): You can see the ply of dust in there. Speaker 3 (30:53): Yeah. Speaker 1 (30:53): So that's good evidence that these pieces were the same ones that were on the playa. I know right now they just made a blog post from conservation that they're doing some costume conservation, and they made a point of saying, usually we get rid of dust, but in this instance, we are keeping the dust because it is an important part of this work and that it shows where it's been, and that's the context of why it's here. So we are trying not to get rid of the dust on this piece. We want to make sure that the dust remains as best as we can. Whenever I see pictures of art on the ply, a light is a really big part of that. So maybe you guys could talk a little bit about the sense of light that goes along with a lot of the sculptures. Speaker 3 (31:34): Well, I wonder if it's changed. I think we'll probably have two different perspectives because I mean, I can imagine Burning Man before L e d, and I know Burning Man of really bright exuberant colors. But what I like about even this piece and what you see a lot on the playa is art is meant to be interactive with, is meant to be touched. And I like how the light balances off the textures Speaker 2 (31:57): Here to where Speaker 3 (31:58): I think you get both senses. You get the touch aspect to it and the light, and that's a lot of the pieces out on BlackRock. Speaker 1 (32:06): Yeah, Speaker 2 (32:06): One of the most fascinating experiences of going out there is walking around your first night of walking out on the playa, and I just never tire of seeing, oh my God, the amount of stuff that's lit up and the electricity and the wiring. I mean, you don't see any of this, but it's just everything is glowing. I mean, not only people who are walking around with glow sticks and you want to keep yourself somewhat lit up so you avoid bumping into somebody or getting hit by an R car. But people's bikes are all covered with stuff that has batteries and electric powered, but everything, I mean, where a lot of stuff is charged during the day and it's using stuff that's glowing at night, it's hard to explain because you can kind of see this stuff. And then if you just imagine 500 other things like this that are glowing in a five mile radius around you, and you see things just so often a distance that you think you know what it is, and then you just start riding your bike out to that and it completely changes into something like, oh, how did you not see this? Speaker 2 (33:19): How did you not come across a structure that is so enormous? And the stuff they're building is amazing. Every time I went out there, and I hadn't been out there like said since 2010, so what the concentration of art out there must be like, but it's everywhere. It's just take this and just multiply it and just, it's constant. You're just surrounded by glowing things and lit up things and blinky things like nobody's business. Speaker 3 (33:45): The first time I saw it in the experience of seeing the P play at night, it's breathtaking. It's almost like if you've ever been to Las Vegas and just seeing the lights from miles, that's what the ply reminded me of because I mean five miles in the desert, I mean, it goes on and on and on, and there's just lights forever. And each art project and different inspiration that people bring, I mean, it is powerful to see it for the first time. Speaker 2 (34:11): I don't know if this is still out there, one of the strongest images of an our car or the visuals on the ply at night was there was an art call called Buzz saw, and I believe it was all l e d off the side of what was a bus or some kind of structure. And it was only a night, I think it was actually a moving sound stage, but what you saw off a distance, and you're talking about something that was probably 20, 25 feet high and equal the length of a bus or a truck, and it was a moving buzz saw, looked like it was cutting through the ply of floor. So what you just saw how was half of Abla of a buzz saw blade just rotating at different speeds, and you just saw this thing off of distance just moving across the playa as an R car, and it was simulating cutting into the playa floor. And I think that's one of the earlier experiences that I had was seeing a big R car. It just stuck in my head and have never lost that. But it's fascinating and people invest the money and build those things, and it's great. Just no purpose whatsoever other than Wow, that's amazing. Speaker 3 (35:19): And it's fun to just chase our cars. You can spend an entire night, it's like, Ooh, that's shiny thing. I want to bike and follow this a car for three miles, or Oh, there's another one. That's just part of the fun is just chasing these shiny objects and finding the inspiration and next thing you know, it's three o'clock in the morning, you've been chasing shiny Speaker 2 (35:37): All night. Speaker 1 (35:39): Well, it's funny when you brought up Las Vegas, actually, I was already thinking about Las Vegas, but kind of coming at it from a slightly different angle, which is maybe especially with this piece, the colors and the lights can come off as maybe a bit Las vegasy, and I'm saying that in a slightly derogatory way, but I think understood in the context, the lights, it's different. Serve a purpose too. Absolutely. Oh, sure. You have no other light source. Basically, things have to provide their own light or be lit. Otherwise, you're in the middle of a place with no light. Speaker 2 (36:10): You Speaker 1 (36:10): Can't see it without light. Speaker 2 (36:12): Well, you have always markers. If you're out in the deepa, you're looking at the Esplanade, and depending on where your camp is, you're like, okay, they're center camp. And you see that structure and then to the left of that, as you get closer, you always just, your mind starts to build on, okay, well, I'm on four 20, so I'm looking for this camp that has the dusty cowboy sign. So the lights, you're right, the lights become markers of where's giving you some kind of spatial coordinate of where you're at other than the fact that they're just gorgeous to look at and like, wow, look and just kind of get mesmerized off of Speaker 1 (36:45): It. Bat Speaker 2 (36:46): Or sound. Speaker 1 (36:47): Yeah, I'm enjoying looking at them right now, even more than usual because one of the things, we still have some cases in this gallery because that's the other thing about this show is you brought up like, oh, this art is meant to be touched in Felton. I'm like, hope, but not here. Oops. But it, it's a real challenge. I mean, obviously this one you can interact with in certain ways, but we have this sort of push pull with that. We are still this museum where you're like, we don't want you to touch things. So it's like it's really hard challenge for us because there's all this stuff that is meant to be experienced that way, and then we're kind of like, no, no, but oh Speaker 2 (37:29): Yeah, the best ply art is stuff you can just crawl all over. Speaker 1 (37:32): Yeah, Speaker 2 (37:32): I mean, some of the structures out there, you'd see people jump all over and climb up into, and Speaker 1 (37:38): I mean, we have stuff like the Capitol Theater piece where it's like people are crawling all over it technically. Speaker 2 (37:44): Well, on the back of the ticket, when people come in and say, you enter this exhibit at the risk of your own death, and then people fall off a piece of art or get killed by it, then you're totally exonerated. Speaker 1 (37:55): One of the things I think it's also worth bringing up while talking about this piece that is a theme that runs through a lot of the other works is this idea of being made by a collective, which feels very burning man to me as well. So you have this one, which is a collective, I think, and the five ton Crane capital theater piece, which is a huge collective with so many people involved and everybody kind of, so I don't know. That's just something you probably see a lot of, right? Speaker 2 (38:24): Yeah, I collective, I mean, art being made as a collective isn't new. I mean, Andrew Warhol certainly in his past, was certainly known for doing art as a collective, though obviously it was his stamp on his pieces. Speaker 1 (38:39): Yeah, I would say that is the difference, right? I mean, artists workshops are not new, and that goes back to the Renaissance and on, but I mean, that was still, oh, well, this is a Botticelli because it came from his workshop, right? This is a Warhol, it came from the factory. It's one thing to call it a collective where there is no one name. That is a difference, I would say, Speaker 2 (38:59): Are these pieces, and that would be, I guess, would've a question. Are a lot of the pieces that are in this show titled as a collective? Speaker 1 (39:06): Several are, yeah. Yeah. There's multiple ones that are not a person's proper name, but this would be one where it just this fold house. Some of those collectives are just two Speaker 2 (39:16): People Speaker 1 (39:17): In some instances. Some of them are 50 people, so they have different, Speaker 3 (39:22): And that Speaker 2 (39:22): They are communal builds, Speaker 1 (39:26): Art Speaker 2 (39:26): Pieces. Speaker 1 (39:27): That's great. Speaker 3 (39:28): Which really builds on the principles of communal effort. I can't imagine a piece like this one person doing. I mean, you said it. It's a communal effort just to build this stuff out there and get it out there and to have her survive out there. Speaker 1 (39:40): Yeah, that's true. I mean, that's something to think about is the practicality of exhibiting art in a really harsh environment and sort of mounting it and putting it up in the way that it does require a team to even just present a lot of this stuff. I'm sure it's hard enough to build this here in a gallery. Something like the five Ton Crane Capital Theater piece came in boxes and was put together in the gallery. There's no door big enough to put it through otherwise. So I mean, I can't imagine doing that in the harshness of the desert. Speaker 2 (40:19): Have you might been part of an installation crew? How early when you go out to Black Speaker 3 (40:23): Rock City, what's the Speaker 2 (40:24): Early as you've been Speaker 3 (40:25): Out there part of a gate perimeter and Exodus? My department's G, p and E, so I'm a laner. I'm one of the people that you'll see checking you in. Speaker 1 (40:34): Oh, okay. Speaker 3 (40:35): I like doing the grimy jobs. I like being dusty. I like being out in the sun with my other GP and ears it. The joke of my campus, that's the guy that puts things up and sets 'em down. I'm just a straight laborer when I'm out there, and I just felt like that's a good way for me to contribute to the city. So no, I've never been part of a collective, but you may see me yelling at you in the lanes to get back in your car and making sure that the city of BlackRock city is safe. Never. Yeah. I've Speaker 2 (41:06): Never worked on an art. The earliest I've ever been in is that Monday that the Bernard, so I've never been part of a camp. It's like, oh, you can go out a week or two in advance and help do installations or put up the fence. I always thought that would be kind amazing. Speaker 3 (41:21): I think I'm lyer for two weeks. Usually. I do a lot of the early shifts for GP E, and then I help set up our camp. Speaker 1 (41:27): Oh, wow, Speaker 2 (41:27): That's great. Two weeks out there has got people who are out there for longer periods of time for weeks afterwards cleaning up. It's just, I can Speaker 3 (41:35): Imagine that got to be a whole Speaker 4 (41:35): Different experience Speaker 3 (41:37): Seeing the city come together. It's beautiful that people, it's a manmade creation to create this beautiful city, and then we tear it down. It's insane to think of that concept and to think of that, you're right, there's people six weeks before I'm there, and there's people there six weeks afterwards, literally hand by hand picking up all the trash that we left behind. Speaker 2 (41:59): That's a lot of stuff that people don't, you can read Jack Rabbit Speaks, which is the Burning Man newsletter, and get a lot of great stories. But for the people who stay out there and just quadrant out the grid and just walk and walk and pick up Moop is just think about that. That's amazing. That's such a commitment to what's going on out there and those principles of Leave No Trace. Yeah, Speaker 3 (42:25): Just so we can have this event Speaker 2 (42:26): Just to have the event Speaker 3 (42:27): Just so we can have this event next year. I mean that there's people dedicated to 70,000 people to being able to come back. Speaker 2 (42:35): It's Speaker 3 (42:35): A beautiful thing. Speaker 2 (42:37): I hope it's an innate quality. The people who are going out there, I think some of the attraction burns not just go out there and learn that and then come back and bring that into the default world, but you're drawn to the principles that Burning Man is founded on, and that resonates with you. And so going out there, I mean, when I'm out on the Playa, I pick up stuff. I mean, I have carry little trash bag with me or I put stuff in my pocket. I'm always looking around and picking up stuff. I mean, even small little scraps of paper. One year, my first year I went out there, I guess I wanted to take something out to the temple or the temple and give people, because a very emotional destination. Absolutely. And I want to give people a piece of candy. Speaker 2 (43:19): Just go up to them afterwards or a respectful moment and just give them something as a gift to show appreciation of what they're doing there. And the first year I went out there, I think I took Scotchy and I was like an idiot. I realized that they had came with paper. So every time I went up to someone, I would show them what I was giving them and give it to them. Then take the wrapper off and then put it in a little like a Band-Aid container and show them, I'm going to throw this away. So the next time I came out there, I ended up just not doing a food item because I didn't want to take trash out there. But just if everybody carries that mindfulness out there then, but it's amazing how easy stuff like someone's cigarette people's, so smoking cigarettes a cigarette, but winds up on the ground because it does. But I'm amazed at how much does get picked up. I'm sure there's a lot that's still left unfortunate, but thankfully that there's crews that go and pick that stuff up. But you do care. I think some people carry that sense of mindfulness out with them because that's what attracts 'em to Burning Man. And then it's amplified when they get back. Speaker 3 (44:22): And it's funny when you start to meet people who identify as a burner in the default world, I think a lot of us that are really passionate about the communities, we embrace the 10 outside of the burn, and this tense principles, they're not a bad way to live. Civic responsibility, gifting and a gift could be a conversation or picking up trash or just being nice to people, or the 11th principals consent asking before you do anything. These principles that govern our city, they're not a bad way to live. No. And I typically, I tend to gravitate towards people who live the 10 principles. That's why I like to be around other partners. We share that similar expectation on how we treat people and how we kind of go around our life. Speaker 1 (45:05): Well, thank you guys for being my guest today. Speaker 3 (45:07): Thanks for having us. Thank Speaker 1 (45:08): You for having us. Sure. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art. General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. The special exhibition on view right now is No Spectators, the Art of Burning Man. Join us for a free gallery experience on Sunday, May 26th at 3:00 PM That will feature stories from the Playa led by local burners, including Jeffrey Miller from today's episode. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Fra Mu by Belau. And as always, if you enjoy our show, why not leave us a nice reviewer rating, or you can also take the survey which helps us learn more about our listeners@cincinnatiartmuseum.org slash podcast. I'm Russell Leig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.