Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace. Speaker 2 (00:02): Everybody's from somewhere. Everybody's family came to this country for some reason, and it's a great icebreaker. Speaker 1 (00:23): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Abby Schwartz, director of the Skirball Museum in Cincinnati. How has your day been? Speaker 2 (00:52): Pretty good. Speaker 1 (00:53): Mondays Speaker 2 (00:54): Are always challenging. You go in thinking you're going to do one thing and it ends up that you do 12 other things. Speaker 1 (00:59): Yeah, no, I know that. Speaker 2 (01:00): So far so good. Speaker 1 (01:02): I always have these days where I think, oh, this, look at my day. It's wide open. And those are the worst. They're always the worst any day where I think I have a lot of time and I'm like, I'm going to get so much done today. And then I go in and it is immediately like, oh, oh, oh, can you do this? Can you do this, this, this, this, this? And those are like, I'm like, I was going to get so much done today. What happened? It's like always the worst. Speaker 2 (01:26): Yeah. Well, today, actually, the high point of the day so far was potato lats in the teller lounge of Hebrew Union College, because it is the first day of Hanukkah. So these greasy potato LACAs followed by donuts, because you're supposed to eat foods that are fried and oil. That Speaker 1 (01:48): Is the best rule for a holiday effort. An excuse to eat fried foods. Exactly. Speaker 2 (01:54): Exactly. And it was all put on by the second year rabbinical students, because where I work, the Skirball Museum is housed on the campus of Hebrew Union College, which trains rabbis for the reform movement of Judaism. So the second year students were in charge of Hanukkah. So not only food, but a little bit of tourist study and singing and celebration. So for a Monday, it wasn't too bad. Speaker 1 (02:17): Yeah. So Hanukkah, you're going to have to totally educate me probably a lot. I probably mostly know what I've picked up from pop culture and things, but it's kind of a newish holiday, isn't it? Or how long has it been Speaker 2 (02:32): Around? Well, it's not new. It's definitely dates back to before modern history. It's an ancient holiday, but what you probably have picked up is that it's not a major holiday. Speaker 1 (02:47): Okay, okay. Speaker 2 (02:48): It's a minor holiday, but it's taken on a lot more significance, especially since the founding of the state of Israel. It represents the victory of the Maccabees, this small group of very religious Jews over the larger power. At the time, it was a Hellenistic culture, and people were kind of assimilating and they wanted to, did not want that. So they sort of rose up and were able to prevail. And that victory of a smaller group over a larger power became sort of symbolic and associated with the way that Israel was founded. And it also has an interesting relationship calendar wise to the Christmas holidays isn't always this year we're pretty early. Speaker 1 (03:44): It's Speaker 2 (03:44): Always the same with a lunar calendar, but we say it's early because it's early in the Gregorian calendar, and it became a way to give presents for eight days. The holiday is an eight day holiday. And to help kids who weren't celebrating Christmas, maybe get over that a little bit. Speaker 1 (04:07): Have something else. Yeah, yeah. Have Speaker 2 (04:09): Something. But it is, when you think about the miracle of the oil, I mean, the way the story goes is that when the Maccabees went to restore the synagogue and put everything back in its place, because there had been this fight that there's an eternal light that always a flame that's always going in a synagogue, and the oil had been spilled, and there was only really enough oil to last for one day. Speaker 1 (04:49): So Speaker 2 (04:49): The story goes, but it lasted for eight. So the miracle of the oil is kind of why it's celebrated for eight days, but it's become a holiday of lights, a holiday of freedom, a holiday of reminding ourselves of all of the practices that we have and to protect them. And to always, even as an assimilated people, we still have traditions that we want to keep. So that's kind of the way we look at it. Speaker 1 (05:22): Nice. So tell me a little bit more about the museum and how, I guess, how did it get started? Okay. Speaker 2 (05:29): Well, all museums get started by somebody saying, I have this stuff and I don't want to keep Speaker 1 (05:37): It anymore. I Speaker 2 (05:38): Mean, I'm being a little bit flip, but it's really true. Speaker 1 (05:40): A lot of museums, Speaker 2 (05:42): Museums form when people have things that they can't keep or can't afford to keep or don't want to keep or want to throw away, but they don't want to be the ones to throw it away. So if they give it to you, then you can throw it away. Speaker 1 (05:55): We get that sometimes. Yeah, exactly. We had somebody bring us something recently, like this sort of homemade Carmen Miranda costume. Oh boy. And they donated it to us, and they ended up giving it to me and to the education department because they were like, do you want, somebody gave it to us, and this letter they sent was so clearly, I don't want to throw it away. And it's like, they're almost giving it to you. They almost knew we would not keep it. So they're giving it to you with this, can you be the person to throw this away? Speaker 2 (06:25): Exactly. So sometimes you end up with stuff that's amazing, and sometimes you end up stuff with stuff that should be thrown away. But the real story is that the college where the museum is, the Hebrew Union College, Jewish Institute of Religion was founded in 1875, and in 1912 is when the college moved from downtown to the campus that it now inhabits. And when the library was beginning, the person who oversaw the library was starting to get inquiries about things that people had that they wanted to donate. So it started with donations from the community of Jewish objects could be Sabbath candlesticks, or a kiddish cup that had been in their family or a painting that they didn't really have any place to put. So they gave it to the museum, and then over time, important collections were purchased that really broadened the collection. And then in 1990, the college purchased a building that was right adjacent to the campus that became the new home of the museum. Speaker 2 (07:42): So it has a dedicated floor that is the permanent collection, and then another floor that is for temporary shows. And then gradually we've taken over every possible hallway, every landing, stairwells, putting art, because our collection continues to grow. We were the fortunate beneficiaries of the Beth Klutznick National Jewish Museum's Collection, which had been housed in Washington dc. And when they closed that museum, they had hoped to build somewhere in Washington, and that never happened. So they had to really transfer this collection somewhere. And in 2015 it came to us. So we're actively still unpacking and condition reporting and trying to get as much of it on view as possible. So it's a comprehensive collection. Speaker 1 (08:43): What are some examples? Speaker 2 (08:44): Well, we actually have in our collection one of the jars that housed the Dead Sea Scrolls. Speaker 1 (08:51): Really? Speaker 2 (08:51): Yeah. The real deal. Speaker 1 (08:53): That's amazing. Speaker 2 (08:54): Yeah, it is amazing. And it's actually, there were several shapes that these jars were in. Most of them were more plain and sort of cylindrical. This one is more bulbous and actually had a very interesting shape top. There weren't a lot. The top the cover has is a reproduction, but the actual jar is original, so Speaker 1 (09:17): That just, Speaker 2 (09:18): It's pretty Speaker 1 (09:18): Blow your mouth into It Speaker 2 (09:19): Does. I mean, there's not any dead sea scrolls in it, but, Speaker 1 (09:22): But Speaker 2 (09:23): Still, you sort of picture it just tucked away in this cave where it had been for so long, and these shepherds were looking for sheep and trying to get 'em to come back, and they fell into these little holes and there they were. Speaker 1 (09:41): I have that thing where when I just really stop and try to think about the time line of really ancient objects, it blows my mind still. So I walk by pieces we have in our collection. I'll just be like, oh my gosh, this thing is like 6,000 years old. Speaker 2 (09:59): Exactly. Speaker 1 (10:01): I can't even, you try to comprehend that. I'm like, that's insane. Speaker 2 (10:05): And when you see it in the context of other objects that are in this section, which are more utilitarian bowls and vessels that you ate and drank from, or prepared food on mortars and pestles and grinding instruments, and you really have a sense of the level of sophistication of these societies, it is very powerful. So the story isn't really linear because we start the museum with 19th century immigration, and I used to think that was weird. I've been there five and a half years. I mean, I've known about the museum all the 40 years I've lived in Cincinnati, but I didn't really think about the installation. And why is it starting in the 19th century? Well, the reason it starts in the 19th century is because it's a great common moment for anybody who walks into the museum. Speaker 2 (11:04): Everybody's from somewhere. Everybody's family came to this country for some reason, and it's a great icebreaker because we see a lot of interfaith audiences, and we want people to feel comfortable. And it's really great when you can start the conversation with, well, where did your ancestors come from and why? And sometimes people know and sometimes they don't, but it makes them want to know. And then it goes on to deal with Cincinnati Jewish history, which is very important. They're really because of the influence of Isaac Mayer Wise, who founded the reform movement and brought this idea of a more modern type of Judaism to America. It impacted everything. And so there's a lot about Cincinnati early Jewish history. That's part of the story that we tell. And then it goes on to the archeology section, and then the section about the Torah, and then lifecycle events and holidays and all the objects that are associated with those. So it's very rich artistic heritage because for every holiday for Hanukkah, there's the Hanukkah menorah, and they can be as ornate as a baroque confection of Speaker 1 (12:29): Silver Speaker 2 (12:29): Filigree or as simple as a modern Israeli stone base with iron spikes that you just stick the candles on. Speaker 1 (12:39): That's Speaker 2 (12:39): From the 1990s and later. So there's every kind of artistic expression that's used to glorify these holidays. So it's powerful. Speaker 1 (12:53): Nice. You mentioned special exhibitions and things. Do you have anything going on right now? Speaker 2 (12:57): We do right now we have a photo focus exhibition Speaker 1 (13:01): Up. Oh, sure, sure. Speaker 2 (13:03): And it is the work of Miles Wolfe, who is a local photographer. Miles grew up in Cincinnati, and he's known for architectural photography. He's done lots of books about Cincinnati architecture, Mount Adams architecture, and he took it upon himself. He approached me actually before the 2016 photo focus and said, I want to do this. I want to do it with the ski ball, because you guys have a lot of the archival material at the American Jewish Archives, which is on our campus and at the museum. And I want to recreate the congregations of Cincinnati going all the way back to the beginning. So the earliest congregation that was founded in Cincinnati was founded in 1821, and that was what is today Rockdale Temple, which is in Amberley Village now. But it started really with a cemetery. Speaker 1 (14:00): Oh, wow. Speaker 2 (14:01): So when there were a few Jews in Cincinnati in 1821 by 1900, there were about 15,000 Jews in Cincinnati. And Cincinnati by the middle of the 19th century was the third largest city in America. So the Jewish population here by then was pretty big, but at the beginning, it was just a few people. They would gather in somebody's house or office, and they might say a few prayers, but it wasn't a formal congregation. Speaker 1 (14:29): The Speaker 2 (14:29): Only point at which you have to really create a formal congregation is when someone dies, Speaker 1 (14:35): You Speaker 2 (14:35): Have to buy a piece of property, you have to bury them. So the oldest Jewish cemetery west of the Allegheny's is still standing in Cincinnati on Chestnut Street in the West End. Speaker 2 (14:52): That was the cemetery that became the cemetery for a congregation that today is in Amberley Village, but it started in downtown Cincinnati. And what Miles did was wherever he could. So the first iteration of this congregation was at the corner of sixth and sixth and Broadway that soon became too small for them, and we don't have any photographs of it. It was so early. But they built another synagogue on that same spot. They tore down the one that wasn't big enough and built another one. And what? He was at the corner of Sixth and Broadway, well, at the corner of Sixth and Broadway. Now, do you know what's there? Speaker 1 (15:36): Oh, geez. I'm trying to imagine. Speaker 2 (15:38): Starts with a P, ends with a G has an ampersand in the middle. Speaker 1 (15:42): That's right. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I was thinking of the other side of the street, but yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (15:48): So what he's done is he's superimposed a photograph of the synagogue that was there over the building that stands on that corner so that we can see exactly where that synagogue was. Speaker 2 (16:03): And then he's layered it even further with photographs of people who would have been of that period. And as we get further in time, we start to see not just photographs of people who might have been in these congregations, but people who were, so he's done this with several different congregations, including Plum Street Temple at If Israel Congregation. And he's layered it, as I said, with amazing photographs gathered from people's personal collections. And people are having so much fun finding people they know in the photographs and seeing buildings that were a part of their religious life, who lived here all their lives. And then people like me who haven't lived there all their lives, it happened in every city. So the movement and the migration of the community from the center city to one end of the city to another end of the city, then out to the suburbs, it's a common story. And so everybody can relate to it, but it's particularly meaningful for native Cincinnatians, Speaker 1 (17:07): Such a clever use of photography and something we think of as a sort of documentary medium. But here, it's being used to almost create the documentation that didn't exist. Speaker 2 (17:19): Exactly. Speaker 1 (17:20): It's really clever Speaker 2 (17:20): And it is really clever, and it could seem like it would be kitschy, but it's not. Speaker 1 (17:26): It's Speaker 2 (17:26): So respectful. And the photography itself is so remarkable. I mean, what we've done is next to the finished image, which he either calls composition or a collage, we have text with thumbnails of the pictures he used to create his composition. And he's so careful about the way he includes them so that it really does create an artistic composition. And he actually demonstrated how he does it in one of our public programs. And there was audible reaction to seeing him move a figure or finish a figure or take something out because it wasn't working with the composition of the image to really get the best effect. And it was really very instructive for all of Speaker 1 (18:21): Us. Why do you think it sort of got a reaction like that? What was interesting, Speaker 2 (18:25): I think people, well, I mean he's using Photoshop and other programs, and I think that people didn't realize how much you could manipulate, for instance, some of the photographs that he had of what is today, Southern Baptist Church, which is on Lexington Avenue and Avondale, that used to be Addeth Israel. Well, the image that he had that he wanted to work with was taken fairly close to the building. So the building was sort of slanted back, and he was able to make it come full forward by, Speaker 1 (19:02): He changed the perspective on the image, Speaker 2 (19:04): Totally changed the perspective, and has a really good eye. So he was able to do it without distorting Speaker 1 (19:10): The Speaker 2 (19:10): Building. And I guess for somebody who does that every day, it's nothing. But for us who basically, all I do with my photos sometimes is crop them on my iPhone. And others were just like, oh, it's amazing. So he was able to make that image work Speaker 1 (19:29): For Speaker 2 (19:29): What he wanted to do with Speaker 1 (19:30): It, just the magic of the technology and the way you can combine Speaker 2 (19:34): Things. And just did two minutes. He's up there, of course, the first time, I'm sure it took him longer, but he's worked with that image a lot. Speaker 1 (19:41): Yeah. Once you've done it a lot, you get into a, it's like you get good at it, the more you've done it. Well, I was wondering if you would like to go with me into the galleries now and we can look at some artwork and talk about it. Speaker 2 (19:52): I'd love to. Speaker 1 (19:53): Good. So we are now here in Gallery 2 29. I still looked, even though I didn't need to, I knew the number. This is a game of, this is a recurring theme on the show is whether I'll remember the gallery Speaker 2 (20:23): Number we're Speaker 1 (20:23): Standing in. But I know this one, we use this one a lot, and we are standing in front of the Red Rooster by Mark Chaga. It's probably one of our most famous paintings in the collection, and it's probably one of the most popular paintings in the collection. And I picked Al today to look at, just because he's also one of the most famous Jewish artists and somebody for whom that becomes a subject in the work too, Speaker 2 (20:51): A lot. Yes, that's true. Yes, indeed. Yes. Well, this is just such an iconic image. It really reflects so much of what Shal is known for, these sort of strange juxtaposition of figures. We have this marvelous red rooster occupying the left foreground, and just at the very left of the image, a figure of a young man who has a harp. So it could only be David, and then a donkey figure playing a violin leaning against a tree in the right foreground. And another figure with a red hat sort of coming out from behind the tree. And then above and over it all, a figure of a man with a blue face and a green hat just floating across the sky. And this surreal kind of image approaching a sliver of moon and an upside down cow. Speaker 1 (22:02): Oh, you see that as a Speaker 2 (22:02): Cow, maybe? Oh, see, Speaker 1 (22:04): I see it as another Speaker 2 (22:05): Chicken. Oh, you're right. A chicken. It's some kind of a chicken. Speaker 1 (22:07): Yep. Speaker 2 (22:08): You're right. It's a chicken. Speaker 1 (22:09): I thought you'd blown it wide open there for me. A chicken. Speaker 2 (22:12): No, it's, there's often cows, but Speaker 1 (22:14): Yeah, no, I was like, is that a cow? Speaker 2 (22:16): Well, Speaker 1 (22:16): Yeah, and I think if you were standing on the, we're standing very close to this painting right now, but I think if you're standing on the other side of the painting, you would probably first, obviously the rooster Speaker 2 (22:26): Comes Speaker 1 (22:26): Out first. I mean, the rooster is most of the picture. Speaker 2 (22:29): It is red. Speaker 1 (22:30): The rooster probably occupies at least two thirds of this picture. And it is bright, bright Speaker 2 (22:35): Red. Speaker 1 (22:35): Yes. And then you would next probably see maybe the man floating because he's Speaker 2 (22:40): Pretty Speaker 1 (22:40): Big. And that blue face stands out. Then I think you'd probably pick out this tree. Speaker 2 (22:45): Well, it certainly balances the composition balances the Speaker 1 (22:50): Donkey man kind of, he's pretty prominent, Speaker 2 (22:54): But you don't see him initially Speaker 1 (22:56): As maybe not right away. But then some of those other figures you mentioned are almost like little fun surprises that Speaker 2 (23:01): Pop Speaker 1 (23:01): Up, like the harp player character. He's just in almost an outline, very kind of ghostly. Speaker 2 (23:08): Very, very much so, almost as an afterthought. Speaker 1 (23:12): And yeah, I've looked at this with a lot of people, and a lot of people do almost describe this Red Hat person as a ghost or something because of the way, I think maybe the color, the way they're sort of blending into the tree in the background almost. But then that hat is what you notice them right away, because that bright red hat, red Speaker 2 (23:31): Hat pops Speaker 1 (23:32): Them out. But it's all very not clear what's going on. Speaker 2 (23:37): Exactly. And Al was working at a time when surrealism was really prominent, and there's definitely that sense of a dream world that Speaker 2 (23:53): When you wake up from a dream, sometimes there are all these strange juxtapositions, but they all come from some part of your consciousness and form something that never really could have happened. And for Al, there's always this incredible mix of his old world roots, his youth in eps, this little shtetl town in what is in today Belarus. And he is never really leaves it behind. And so a lot of these figures that the animals and the people that were part of that, and often the architecture, this doesn't appear in this work, but the buildings, the houses, I mean, it's right out of Fiddler on the roof. Speaker 1 (24:39): There's Speaker 2 (24:41): Very much the world that he grew up in. And then he comes to Paris and he changes his name from Siegel to Al, and he becomes this French dandy and spends, and he's always sort of fighting between those two sides of who he is. And Speaker 1 (25:01): It's Speaker 2 (25:02): Really later in his life where he really embraces, again, his childhood roots. And a lot of his work has a lot of Jewish content, but this is just, it's just so free and so dreamlike and that figure over top with his polka dot pants and his check shirt, but the sleeve, it still feels like a prayer shawl. The stripes on the sleeve of his right hand, I still see a prayer shawl. I still see that connection to his Jewish past. Speaker 1 (25:41): Well, even the way I always assume, he comes from a smaller place with a lot, the animals sort of harken back to livestock things. He probably would've grown up Speaker 2 (25:52): With Speaker 1 (25:52): The donkey, the rooster, the chickens and all of this, the milk Speaker 2 (25:55): Cow, all of them. Speaker 1 (25:56): Yes, absolutely. It's like you've got that going on. But then you were describing these patterns on his pants, this, the polka dots, the checks, it's like modernism right there, right? Speaker 2 (26:07): Yes, exactly. It's Speaker 1 (26:08): Like old and new all at once happen. Speaker 2 (26:10): Yes, very much. Speaker 1 (26:11): And actually, it's probably, it's one of the first times I've looked this probably, I've looked at it the longest right now than I probably ever have. And just noticing the way those little patterns sort of become a part of the rooster's tail here, these little polka dots and things that are kind of dancing around the rooster, which give a great sense of movement. But also, again, it's this sort of modern thing happening going on, Speaker 2 (26:38): And it's not defined. The edges are not crisp. It's like, it's almost like it feels so instantaneous. And yet there are these fine details in the tree. I just found this little bird. Yeah. Do you see this little bird just sort Speaker 1 (26:56): Of Speaker 2 (26:57): Nestled on a branch and hidden? Speaker 1 (26:59): Yeah, it's very, theres lots of things. They're Speaker 2 (27:01): Camouflaged. Speaker 1 (27:03): Yeah. When you're talking about that, the way the, it's almost like the rooster is sort of dissolving in from, again, something sort of dreamlike where things just sort of fade in and out, Speaker 2 (27:14): Or almost like a stamp that you've applied, Speaker 1 (27:17): But Speaker 2 (27:17): You didn't apply equal pressure Speaker 1 (27:19): All the way around. Speaker 2 (27:21): And that gives it a sense of immediacy that you wouldn't have if it felt more finished. Speaker 1 (27:28): Yes, definitely. Definitely. But Speaker 2 (27:29): It is finished, of course, Speaker 1 (27:31): Right? Yeah. We've got the signature down there. We know it was done. Okay, we're done. Speaker 2 (27:37): Yeah. Speaker 1 (27:38): Yeah, there's so much to say. I mean, it's really fun to get to look at this piece and have people try to almost do a dream interpretation of it. Speaker 2 (27:46): And rooster's appear in so many of his works that people have assigned a lot of different meanings to it, but none that he ever acknowledged. It's almost better to just, Speaker 1 (28:00): Yeah, I think I would hate to have those things locked down. Correct. It's less fun than if you get to come up with your own meaning. To me, it doesn't, I guess in the way, I'm not really, when somebody starts telling you about their dreams and you just go, oh gosh, you kind of roll your eyes. I'm not, dream stories are interesting to exactly one person, usually the person that they happen to. But I feel like I don't really worry too much about the meaning of this piece. It feels very musical and probably because there's a literal musical instrument in it, but it's about the tone and the feeling of it that I don't really get too wrapped up in the meaning of it. I don't really care about the meaning. Speaker 2 (28:42): It's very musical. It's very rhythmic. It has a feeling of freedom and expressiveness that it just makes you feel good and you can make your own story. And I think that that's one of the reasons why it's so powerful. And you hear the music, you see this donkey figure strumming the strings of the instrument, and you see the bow in his hand, and you just sort of feel the music. And the rooster is dancing, and the figure in the sky is dancing, and it's the other chicken or whatever that is in the sky is dancing. And there's a harp playing also. So it is a real experience for the senses, and it's no need get bogged down in deeper levels of meaning. It's just a wonderful feast for the eyes and the ears. Speaker 1 (29:49): It almost becomes, to me, I almost think of, because the pictures have so many, there's sort of different sections to the picture, and the tree scene is almost its own thing. I almost feel like the bigger things around them which don't really fit into the same sort of scale of space, it almost becomes like, this is the song the donkey Man is playing. To me, we Speaker 2 (30:17): Almost like the bubble. Speaker 1 (30:18): Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Bubble. Yeah. That's how I kind of read it sometimes. Speaker 2 (30:23): And that's totally legit. Yeah, I see that as well. And of course, the more you look, the more you see sort of the hint of a hillside here and maybe even a little bit of a sense of some buildings you would see in so many of his works that, and Speaker 1 (30:44): Who knows, it could have been there and he could have just painted it out at one point, possibly. Possibly. Again, I don't think I've ever looked at that sort of background as much, and it's really full of texture and things that feels like he probably put, it looks like it was very dark down here at one point. He painted over it, so it's like who knows what he could have Speaker 2 (31:07): Painted there. But you're right, this whole section where the tree and the donkey figure and the man either sneaking up on him Speaker 1 (31:16): Or Speaker 2 (31:16): Ghost-like I'm not sure which, there's something about his facial expression, which tells me he's come to surprise. Speaker 1 (31:23): Yeah, it looks a little mischievous, but Speaker 2 (31:25): That could be a painting all of its own, the whole color, the whole background is a different color. It has a very different feel to it. So they could be two separate images. Speaker 1 (31:38): It's really the more I keep thinking about this collision of his youth and the sort of modern Paris he's living in today. I also, I think about the composition down here and the way we have this things kind of going off the picture plane. And then you have the man at the top whose body is flying, but he's also touching the top of the picture plane in a way that is very modern. Speaker 2 (32:05): Very modern. Speaker 1 (32:06): That makes us think of the picture itself. Speaker 2 (32:09): Yes. But it also unifies, I mean, it serves Speaker 1 (32:12): To crosses Speaker 2 (32:13): The two sides of the painting Speaker 1 (32:16): Together Speaker 2 (32:16): Very successfully. He's the bridge between these two parts of the image. Speaker 1 (32:22): His hand is reaching out and almost touching that tree. And then even the fingers are kind of mimicking the shapes of the tree, the shape, the Speaker 2 (32:29): Tree. Yes. The leaves. Yes, exactly. Speaker 1 (32:32): Interesting. Well, I kind of thought since we're talking about Al, we also have this jug here. That's something a lot of artists were working in multiple mediums and not only making paintings, but also experimenting with ceramics. And so we have this piece that's called Jug Flight into Egypt. And one of the things we were talking about, I thought it was kind of funny as I was looking at it, and we were talking about him as a Jewish artist, and then here he is telling the Christian Christmas story. Speaker 2 (33:04): Exactly. Well, any artist who lived as long as Al did and studied as much as Al did, you can't really be an artist or an artist historian without knowing all of the Bible stories, Speaker 1 (33:19): Old Speaker 2 (33:19): And New Testament. So he would certainly know this story from many, many versions of it throughout the history of art. But what he's done here, again, is so typical of this, the way that Mary is cradling her family. And again, it's this sort of very surrealistic figure of a woman. She doesn't have any bones. It's all Yeah, Speaker 1 (33:53): I know. It's Speaker 2 (33:54): Fluid's all fluid, and it's almost like Henry. Speaker 1 (34:01): Yeah, that's a great way of describing the shapes, created Speaker 2 (34:03): The shapes. They're so abstract. But as you come around, you see a very well-defined head of yet another donkey. And then this house, which is so reminiscent of the imagery of the little village houses of epk, and he's used the shape of the pot to be able to create these figures in just the way that he has so that it looks like they were always part of it. Speaker 1 (34:38): It Speaker 2 (34:39): Has a real energy that is wonderful. And there's nothing symmetrical about this. More buildings over here on this side. Speaker 1 (34:52): Oh, really? Speaker 2 (34:52): And a wonderful tree. Yes. Rooftops and on the back. Speaker 1 (34:58): Yeah. It's a little hard to see back here. The case is kind of almost up against a wall, so you can see all of it, but it's a little challenging to see the backside, Speaker 2 (35:06): But it moves in. The pod is not symmetrical. And as the figures and the donkey are moving around, you just sort of can continue their path up this hill and then back around and down to the other side. So it has so much movement and so much rhythmic pattern to it that is really spectacular Speaker 1 (35:36): When you were describing them as very fluid. It's something, a connection I never thought about again in making a picture or a jug here. It's Speaker 2 (35:45): More fluid. Speaker 1 (35:45): Yeah, exactly. It's very appropriate that you have this very fluid shape. And I mean, Speaker 2 (35:50): I Speaker 1 (35:50): Can't imagine anyone actually ever using this as a real picture, or it looks like it probably weighs a time to pick that thing up. I can't imagine you pouring a glass of water for anyone from this. Speaker 2 (36:05): I agree. Speaker 1 (36:06): But it is interesting that that idea of fluidity and water, Speaker 2 (36:10): I Speaker 1 (36:10): Think made it into the design in that way you're describing. But also, I mean, talking about flight and movement, that's another thing too. There's definitely a real, if we were talking about people escaping, right? Speaker 2 (36:21): There's urgency to this. And Speaker 1 (36:24): Certainly Speaker 2 (36:25): Al would have made the connection between the escape that Mary and Jesus had to make from Herod to his own, having to flee Europe to escape Hitler. So this was something that would've been part of his experience. Speaker 1 (36:47): And that's a good point. That's like those stories of escaping and fleeing, it reminds me of the way Exodus is used often in African-American stories to relate to escaping slavery. And these stories translate from one time period to another. Speaker 2 (37:06): Exactly. And that's really why the Bible is still the best book ever written, because there's everything in it has a reference to today. Speaker 1 (37:17): I Speaker 2 (37:17): Mean, there's nothing you can't connect to our own lives and what we're experiencing in the modern world. And this was true for artists throughout their working lives, and they certainly knew all of the history of art and the many renditions of this subject by artists Speaker 1 (37:36): Ranging Speaker 2 (37:36): From medieval times all the way to the modern era. Speaker 1 (37:40): And I feel like this is such a unique spin on, I mean, if you walked into this room and did not read the label, I don't know if you would necessarily Speaker 2 (37:49): Probably not, Speaker 1 (37:50): Probably not pick up on this specific subject, biblical tale. You probably would just, it feels much more in line with other chaga work and just being like, oh, yeah, it's got these kind of weird dreamy figures and they're floating. I don't know if you would really lock it down to that. Speaker 2 (38:06): And that's okay. And there's another donkey that he's drawn that isn't three dimensional on the back as well, coming out of the rooftop of the house. Speaker 1 (38:15): But it is fun, actually. I mean, one of the things I love about having it here is next to the painting, is you get to sort of see how he thought about space in that way. The painting is, we create the space ourselves because it doesn't have a real sense of actual space. So it becomes very dreamlike. And it's interesting because here, when he has to work with something so material, so plastic, so this is real space, it still actually translates into that dreamlike space. It doesn't feel real. Speaker 2 (38:50): And again, it's because he's manipulated the object to his will, not to the prescribed shape that a vessel should have. Speaker 1 (39:02): Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I'm kind of wondering to follow these little squares around. I think that's something else interesting. They don't continue, they just go around the front. Speaker 2 (39:12): Yes. It's almost like their little windows that haven't Speaker 1 (39:16): Been Speaker 2 (39:17): Cut out. Speaker 1 (39:18): Yeah. I don't know how to read them if they're just sort of a kind of decoration almost. And he just maybe felt like, oh, it needs a little something up here. Speaker 2 (39:29): No, it is so decorative. I mean, he's done so much with little sketches of tree forms, and some of them are painted on, and some of them are etched into the clay. Now over here there is a window four panes, and he has sort of gouge those out, and it has shutters that window. So maybe what he was thinking up there, but just ended up leaving them as decorative. Speaker 1 (40:00): This side that we're on now, and looking at these leaves here, you were kind of talking about parts that are painted in parts that are etched away. Speaker 2 (40:07): And Speaker 1 (40:08): Reminds me again, of the painting where we have things like the rooster, which are more fully defined. And then you have these little out outliney figures behind them. And it's like you have two sort of simultaneous layers of existence happening at once. Almost you have this one set of leaves that look like this, and then another set of leaves, and it almost feels like we're looking at two times existing at once almost, or something. It's really interesting. Speaker 2 (40:36): Yes. I mean, he's done a remarkable job with the sense the three dimensionality here. I mean, this head of the donkey emerges from the pot. It's fully three dimensional, but he's still giving us Speaker 1 (40:54): Ears the Speaker 2 (40:54): Outline of the ears that are more flattened to the Speaker 1 (41:00): Yeah, they're just back on the pot itself, itself, Speaker 2 (41:01): When you stand away from the pot far enough, it's very obvious that those are the ears, Speaker 1 (41:08): Right? It's Speaker 2 (41:09): Only when you come close that you see that they're not even attached to the head. Speaker 1 (41:16): It's a really great way of playing with that design and three dimension versus two dimensions, Speaker 2 (41:22): Really fun. And still the sketch of where the jaw of the donkey, where he drew it in, and then when he actually sculpted the three-dimensional head, it doesn't quite come to that Speaker 1 (41:37): Place Speaker 2 (41:37): On the, Speaker 1 (41:38): So Speaker 2 (41:38): It's very freeform. Again, it's finished, but unfinished. It's raw. It has a sensibility about it that is not polished. Speaker 1 (41:50): A lot of people get really hung up on wanting that, being kind of perfectionist and wanting that first thing they do to be perfect. And I think this is a great example of somebody who's not working in that kind of precious way, who is letting parts of the process maybe show through that other artists might have gotten rid of. So I kind of wonder if that original, those ears we were looking at were maybe part of a sketch or something as he was working on the pot, maybe he sort of went, oh, maybe the donkey will be over here, or the horse or whatever. And then as he's working on it, he sort of starts working three dimensionally and then kind of goes, no, I like that with Speaker 2 (42:29): That. Speaker 1 (42:30): And clay is such a great material for that, because of course, if he wants to get rid of something, it's very easy to just smush it on back in. Exactly. Speaker 2 (42:37): But he didn't. And again, over here with Mary's hair, that so much of her hair is very three-dimensional, and it sort of on one side covers the baby Jesus. And on the other side, it's become part of the background of the pot. Speaker 1 (42:59): Yeah. Well, thank you so much for looking at these pieces with me today. Speaker 2 (43:03): My pleasure. What fun on Speaker 1 (43:13): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art. General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are the fabric of India life, Jillian Waring and collecting calligraphy arts of the Islamic world. Join us on Sunday, December 23rd at 3:00 PM for a free gallery experience that looks at holidays around the world. Compare and contrast how holidays are celebrated in the east, west, north, and south. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and even join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Music by Balal. And always please rate and review us. It always helps other people find the show. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.