Speaker 1 (00:00): Art Palace is sponsored by P N C Bank coming up on Art Palace. Speaker 2 (00:07): That's the beauty of artwork, though. That's the absolute beauty of it, is that it teaches us about ourselves. In this conversation, I'm learning about myself. Speaker 1 (00:25): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Kimmy Rimini, behavior support manager for Hamilton County Developmental Disability Services. Kimmy is working with us on an upcoming program called feels, which stands for Functional Emotional Expression Learning series. This program will work with partner organizations to help targeted groups find self-awareness and shared connections through meditation, art journaling, and guided activities. Speaker 2 (01:08): I'm a formerly trained A B A practitioner. A B A stands for Applied Behavior Analysis, and that's a form of behavior support. So I most recently graduated from Purdue Global online with my master's degree, and that was after a 10 year lull. So I am in the field because I have an absolute passion for people with developmental disabilities and specifically people who have difficulties with communication and often express themselves through behavior that others see as unsafe or dangerous even. So I really feel passionate about helping people find a voice and helping people feel safe and empowered, especially people who may not have as many opportunities or be as globally understood. Growing up, my parents are just amazing and they're very, very arts oriented. So I grew up really surrounded by art and I find art very liberating for myself and I find it a way to communicate when words fail us. Speaker 1 (02:18): So have you used art in your work? Is that something that's come up before? Speaker 2 (02:22): Yeah, so one of the things I do, aside from capitalizing on a, b, a so much, it's right in my brain. I just graduated grad school, but I am also trained in trauma-informed care and many of the aspects of the training I received incorporate elements of art in the most beautiful way. So I'm really addressing art through all the senses. So feeling things and seeing things and learning about how pictures are the traveler in our brain and can help generate memories and help us feel safe and things like that. So we use a lot of art in trauma-informed care, specifically when we're with people. It is not uncommon and it's my favorite thing ever to see markers and pencils and crayons and scrap paper and everywhere when we're going to trainings for trauma-informed care, they really encourage that sort of visceral sort of body movement while you're listening and engaging all the senses. And that was transformative to me because when I was growing up, I was a doodler and I was always told to put my stuff away or Speaker 1 (03:26): Focus Speaker 2 (03:26): Or whatever, and I focus far better when I'm creating. And so trauma-informed care, just kind of touching on those parts of the brain and really recognizing the power of that stuff. Speaker 1 (03:38): When we were chatting about this, I mentioned that my interest started for me thinking about how I didn't really know anything about art therapy and then you're sort of like, I'm not an art therapist. And so I wanted to hear more about that and sort of those distinctions and what that means. I don't know if a lot of people sort of understand it or have a great picture of Speaker 2 (03:58): It. So I don't know specifically what I'm creating here, but I see a distinct power in blending art and then these sort of in behavior science, there's evidence that repetition is what helps us change behavioral patterns that are often unsafe or that we need to change or we would like to work on. And that repetition is what makes these responses stick and we're more likely to use those in the future if we receive the proper feedback after we engage in something, right? And you have to have opportunities to do that. And so that felt a little rigid to me at times and a little bit, but what's the bigger picture? So why am I engaging in these things that aren't safe or maybe not deemed by society to be appropriate or why do I need to change my behavior? And that's when I really got into this idea that we can blend art as a way of exploring where some of our feelings come from and then those feelings are translated into our overt behavior, which is measurable and we can see it. But I looked at this process of looking at artwork and I mean artwork is one of the most unifying things. Words are hard, words are tough, there's a lot of different languages. Everybody speaks different languages. Everybody takes in what you're saying differently, Speaker 2 (05:20): But you could be from anywhere and you could look at the same piece of art as me. And it is unifying in that way because we're looking at this piece and we're seeing colors and we're seeing things and we're all responding differently. And I think that that art can be a way to practice responding overtly, measurably in a very, very safe environment with other people in an inclusive way. It's sort of helping bring people together to practice these things that are sometimes really hard for us to address. Speaker 1 (05:55): I just wanted to push back a little bit. I think I know what you're saying, but I also, I grew up going to a southern Baptist church, so if I go up and look at some of the pieces that come out of Catholicism and have a lot of saints and things, my knowledge of those is so bad. I don't know anything about them, so I have to kind of learn. And so it might not hit me in the exact same way that somebody who grew up Catholic would. And then if you grew up Buddhist, those things might mean even less to you in the same way you might be appreciating them on one level that's different than two people who both grew up in a Christian background. And similarly, if we went downstairs into our Asian galleries and looked at some Buddhist artworks, we might not immediately recognize some of the things. We would appreciate it obviously on our sort of own wavelength and get what we want, but we would not immediately understand. Sometimes there are these narratives built in, if you're looking at Christian art and you see a lamb, you understand how loaded that is. You're not just thinking like, oh yeah, it's an animal. Great. Speaker 2 (07:01): Right, right. No, this is perfect. This is exactly what I want to get into because I think we need to be more literal when I say we're all looking at the same thing Speaker 1 (07:09): When Speaker 2 (07:10): We first walk into that gallery, we all see the same piece of art literally with our eyes. It just we're seeing it right? Or Speaker 1 (07:16): However, we are truly, literally, Speaker 2 (07:18): Truly looking at the same thing. Here's where you're helping me so much. Thank you Russell. Here's where the magic happens. When we're looking at art, we can use it as a conversation piece to talk about those big emotions or talk about if you said to me, I was raised in a Southern Baptist household, I think you said, and perhaps you have some feelings associated with that as you've grown older and grown into your own, either you really, you feel passionate and you want other people to understand that, or you are maybe opposed to it and it was very stifling for you. I don't know that's you, Speaker 1 (07:50): But Speaker 2 (07:52): Being able to look at a piece of art and talk about why that piece makes you think of that part of yourself is allowing you to come to these realizations. And it's all about awareness. If I'm going to be in public and respond in a safe way, I have to first be aware of what my triggers are. And if I go into a therapist's office and the therapist says, tell me how you feel. We may not be comfortable expressing emotions when we're asked that question, but if we're given a piece of art and we're able to ask each other the five why's, why do you feel that way? Why then we're cultivating this empathy for each other, but we're also practicing our emotions. We're getting in touch with ourselves. We're saying, this piece offends me because of this or because of your response. It triggered this in me and it creates a conversation that isn't so focused and so intimidating as Tell me how you feel. Speaker 1 (08:43): It's like a safer space. Speaker 2 (08:45): Exactly. I love that word. Safe and trauma-informed care. We use safety all the time, but I was trained to think of safety as real and felt so I can lock all the doors in my home, be safe Speaker 2 (08:56): Physically, but if I don't feel safe, that's different. And that's the same thing with isolation. I think especially since Covid, we all have big emotions as a response to what's happened. It's the human experience. We're all feeling something. Some of those emotions are incredibly isolating for us. We don't know how to process, we don't know how to talk through those things. We feel isolated even if we're around other people as we come out of covid. So I think expecting people to move through this period of time, specifically how tender it is with c o and coming out and still going back in and coming out, I dunno who knows what's happening, but I think using art, this big, big beautiful museum with all these things in it that we can all look at together and have these conversations, we're coming out of that isolation in a far less intimidating way, in a far more empathic way, where we're having conversations with others or we're given a sketchbook and someone says, just draw whatever you want to draw and then you can analyze that because we don't even know how to talk about this stuff right now. Speaker 2 (10:00): So I love that you said, but I see something different. That's exactly what needs to happen. Speaker 1 (10:06): That's Speaker 2 (10:06): Exactly it. Speaker 1 (10:07): I mean, to me that is what is exciting about looking at art and specifically talking about art with people, is figuring out how much it says about them. A lot of times, I mean, that's oftentimes when you talk to people, I was telling you a little bit about my experiences, say doing public tours and things and picking up on just people's feelings and trying to get to the bottom of those. Sometimes it's really fascinating for me in a way. I'm sure you would also really probably love to be a fly on the wall in those situations. Speaker 2 (10:41): Yes. Speaker 1 (10:41): It's always fascinating when say somebody gets angry towards an inanimate object essentially, or a painting or something. And so it's like, whoa, let's unpack this. What's going on here? This is just a painting on the wall. It didn't do anything to you, Speaker 2 (10:57): But Speaker 1 (10:57): Where is that coming from? Their feelings are obviously quite real. Speaker 2 (11:01): Well, and even just saying it's safe, it's about being together and building that empathy with people and asking them why, right? And digging into that. Speaker 2 (11:11): And then also we are, I'm speaking promise, totally speak for myself, but I have felt really helpless. I've not known how to help other people, and I was raised to help other people. And with covid and things that have happened, everything has been slightly derailed. So it's become difficult to figure out how to know what to do next. And there's a lot going on with the world, and you can see there's people who are making the best of it and people who are having trouble. And I think when we're in this shared space looking at art together, we are able to give back in a way that perhaps is outside of the box. If you just stand with me next to this piece and I'm clearly triggered by it and I'm looking at it and just you saying like, I'm here. Speaker 1 (11:57): I'm Speaker 2 (11:57): Here. If you want to tell me why, that's great. If not, we can move on when you're ready. How powerful is that just to have somebody next to you saying, it's okay, it's safe, we're good. You're next to me together, and you too. As the person standing next, you start to feel that dopamine dump of, okay, I'm helping. I'm doing something, I'm being present. I'm being in this moment, and it helps you. So to me, it's a definite interdependent process. You are not just there to help other people process artwork with you, and they are not there for you guys are helping each other. You're sharing space, you're sharing neurons, you're sharing feelings, and that's all being done through this amazing vehicle, which are these wonderful pieces of artwork that we can learn about and have conversation. And I just think that it's a far more palatable way to approach things that may otherwise seem untouchable. Big emotions, scary emotions, things I've kept with me for years and years and years. How do I just start unpacking that, but it's going to catch up with me. Speaker 1 (13:04): Yeah. I think one of the challenges I think we face is that sometimes I think we have to convince people it is a safe space to talk about art. And I think a lot of times I talk about people having almost like a chip on their shoulder vibe you're getting from them stems from some of the just preconceptions they have about what this is, what this about, what our goals are. And yeah, I mean a lot of times it's just sort of showing people like, yeah, I'm truly interested in what you have to say and I want to hear your take on this. One of the things I think people would be surprised, I absolutely would love for somebody to tell me how much they dislike a work of art. I would adore it. Nothing would be a bigger treat for me. Speaker 2 (13:51): You don't have to like this, Speaker 1 (13:52): Right? Somebody just saying when it has happened, it is like mana from heaven to be given the chance to talk through it and be like, why? Tell me why. You're like, Speaker 2 (14:04): What? Speaker 1 (14:05): I want to hear more. I love because there's nothing more fun than hearing somebody describe why they didn't like a movie or something. Just listening to somebody work through it Speaker 2 (14:15): Is Speaker 1 (14:16): Great. Whether I agree with them or not, it's always fascinating to hear and to get discussion going amongst people as well. It's so fun. Speaker 2 (14:25): You're touching on some of the best parts of this, and you're right, it's going to take some convincing because maybe some of the people we bring in are not people who, again, we're a collection of things. People tell us they're not people who think they belong at an art museum. Speaker 1 (14:37): That's usually the biggest Speaker 2 (14:38): Challenge. That's a thing. That's a thing. I always try to, I'm people, some of my friends, I'm like, I want to go to the art museum. And they're like, I know it's because they don't know what they would do at the art museum. I know that. They're like, why would we go just stare at things? I don't really have a purpose there. You know what I mean? And so I think until we can, which is Speaker 1 (14:58): Funny, I'm just thinking that's kind of what you do when you watch tv is you sit and stare at things, Speaker 2 (15:03): Right? And you have an opinion and you want to Speaker 1 (15:05): Talk about it. The actual act of it is not actually any different than what a lot of what you do, but to get the most out of it, I think it generally requires you to put a little more into it Speaker 2 (15:16): Too. Speaker 1 (15:16): There's all sorts of things that are kind of passive. It's on the surface level. All of it's passive. I'm sitting, I'm looking. But just as maybe a Marvel movie doesn't ask as much of you, it's kind of giving you a lot more and sort of walking you through, okay, this happens and this happens. And then there are other movies that might require you to ask questions. Speaker 2 (15:43): I was just going to say, Marvel movies feel like a marathon to me. I have to try to understand what's going on. So maybe that's where we're going. See, this is why we're Speaker 1 (15:50): Actually Yeah, that's true. That's true. Again, that's a great example of, I use that just as sort of a popular movie. Speaker 2 (15:57): I'm like, Russell, there's not one that I watched that I didn't Google first to figure out what I was watching. Speaker 1 (16:01): What is this? No, I'm probably actually in a more similar boat where I have, I don't know, I'm somewhere in the middle maybe where I have a certain understanding. Speaker 2 (16:09): You start watching, then you get on Google. Okay. Speaker 1 (16:11): Yeah. I generally wouldn't do that. I don't care that much. I'm just sort of like, okay, I'm happy. Also, happy to watch it and just let certain things go. I'm sure that was about something I do not understand. Speaker 2 (16:25): Catch up with me Speaker 1 (16:25): Later. I'm fine. Just understanding, yeah, these are the big beats that are important. But yeah, so maybe I've chose a Speaker 2 (16:31): Bad Speaker 1 (16:32): Example, but I think other things might demand more of you. And I think artwork is like that in that you sort of have to ask the questions and you kind of have to go back and forth with it yourself. And that's just something a lot of people don't know how to do. Speaker 2 (16:46): What if I give you a slightly different perspective on the contents and stuff and coming to the art museum? So for me, it's an entire experience because we are talking about people and now I'm going to be really literal at times and other really in the clouds. You're going to be like, Kim, I don't understand what you're saying. That's fine. I'll bring it back to earth. But we are a group, we are a society that was isolated by way of necessity for a very long time. And for some of us coming back out is a challenge because we've lost some of the skills for social interaction or public interaction. And so I think when we talk about bringing people to the museum and helping them feel safe here, there is so much gratitude we can offer people for just getting out of their house and showing up at the front door. Speaker 2 (17:36): Coming to the museum is an experience. It is not just the pieces of artwork in the museum. And that's where I'm going with this, is that you have accomplished something huge by getting, I always tell people, do the next right thing. We don't know what's going to happen in a day or a day after that or whatever. Just do the next right thing. And by coming to the museum, you got up out of bed, you came, you're here. That's perfect. You don't have to do anything else. And then we talk about there's no right answer. How wonderful would it feel if I'm a person who's always concerned if I'm doing the right thing or if I'm going to say the right thing? Or maybe I have concerns about expressing myself. For someone just to say to me, you don't have to do anything when you're here. Anything you say is right and there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Everything is okay. Speaker 1 (18:21): I would like to learn a little bit more about Speaker 2 (18:24): What Speaker 1 (18:24): You're thinking for our sort of future collaboration Speaker 2 (18:28): That Speaker 1 (18:28): We're doing. This is very new, so I also am a little hesitant to say anything too concrete. I know we're still kind of working it out for next year. Speaker 2 (18:37): We are next, totally. We're massaging it out and you guys are helping me a lot. I have all these big ideas, but I'm a collection of just trainings and the wonderful wisdom other people have taught me over the years. So what we are thinking is exactly sort of what we talked about is we'd like to really bring in patrons who may otherwise not feel like they belong at the museum, or maybe people that really could identifiably benefit from co-regulation or being around other people or connecting with others. Some of these maybe more obviously isolated Speaker 1 (19:12): Parts Speaker 2 (19:12): Of our community. And while I can't tell you the details of what every session will look like, there will definitely be sort of what we've talked about, which is the space to ask each other questions or not, and space to look at a piece of art and talk about what is your first impression and why, and where does that come from? And that all sounds really, really great. It's not going to happen exactly like that, but I'm looking at the benefit of the bigger picture, which is showing up every week for three weeks for committing to it. We're going to give people an art journal most likely so they can practice. Just really this transformative process of just being together, looking at something, having discussion, listening to others. It would be my dream if people walked away feeling like they were able to contribute to another human being in a way that was incredibly meaningful. It doesn't have to be therapy, it doesn't have to be prescriptive, it doesn't have to be what they came. Maybe they're getting something out of it that they didn't know that they were coming for, but it's just a way of creating safe space. And when Sarah and I were talking, it was like, wow, we have this big beautiful museum and we can talk about so much stuff here and we can really get into some really great conversation. Speaker 1 (20:37): So we're going to go out into the galleries, and I thought this will be a little different than how I usually do these where I feel like I tend to almost take over the conversation and then it's like gallery side, like, okay, this is my turf. Now I'm fine here, but I kind of want you to lead me a little bit. We're Speaker 2 (20:53): Just going to play the five. You'll be fine. Speaker 1 (20:55): I want to see how you think about this stuff, less about how I do. So Speaker 2 (20:58): We'll go out, we'll have a conversation, we'll ask each other the five why's. Speaker 1 (21:01): Okay. Speaker 2 (21:02): And then we'll digest it. Speaker 1 (21:03): Alright, awesome. Well, we'll go find something to look at. So we are in gallery 2 0 2, and we are looking at, I would say I think of this as one of our rockstar paintings. Speaker 2 (21:21): I don't Speaker 1 (21:22): Know, it's one I've, maybe just because I've been looking at it since I was pretty young, but it's called the Toilet of Venus, which is funny. If you're in fourth grade, where did you take Speaker 2 (21:35): Me? Speaker 1 (21:36): I know. And I mean I guess I would be like the ette of Venus. There you go. It's French. And by the painter. Speaker 2 (21:43): Sounds exponentially more sophisticated. Speaker 1 (21:45): Yes, VU. And so how would you start, walk me through what Speaker 2 (21:52): We're going Speaker 1 (21:52): To do here. Speaker 2 (21:52): So Russell, you chose a fantastic piece because there's a lot of expression going on here. So I think the first thing we'll do is kind of just have you pick a face that you see and just describe to me what you think that the person might be feeling. Speaker 1 (22:08): Well, it's hard not to pick the face that's right in the center of this one. And it's also tricky because there are two versions of this face. Let's Speaker 2 (22:17): Go with both. I want to dig into both. Yes. Speaker 1 (22:21): And it's really, that's what I actually find so fascinating about this painting is the subtle differences between those two faces. So we've got Venus, she's sitting on this big cushiony bed. I don't know if it's really a bed or what. Speaker 2 (22:38): Chase lounge, Speaker 1 (22:38): Something Speaker 2 (22:39): Fancy. Speaker 1 (22:40): And she's, I guess a servant or somebody is holding up this mirror for her and she's looking at her face in the mirror. So I mean, she has a pretty neutral expression in the main painting. I don't see her as really particularly, Speaker 2 (22:57): Would you label her as happy or sad? Which one? Is she more heavy on the happy side or the sad side on the colored? Speaker 1 (23:04): My read of this is in the reality in the center real version, she feels a little more happy. And then in the mirror she feels a little more sad is how I read it. So Speaker 2 (23:16): Why do you think she sat in the expression in the mirror? Tell us about that. Especially because talking on audio. So what does that look like? Speaker 1 (23:24): Some of it is probably just the color, and so that we have her cheeks look rosier, we can see everything looks a little more saturated in sort of real life. And then I think in the mirror everything feels a little grayer, a little desaturated and just a little bit darker Speaker 2 (23:42): Too. Speaker 1 (23:43): So there's shadows. I mean, she does have the same shadows, but they feel more contrasty on her face. And there's just something about her expression too that just feels subtly. Speaker 2 (24:00): What about her expression? What about her facial features would indicate that she feels less happy in the more muted version? Speaker 1 (24:09): I mean, it's really slight because again, we're not talking dramatic Speaker 2 (24:13): Big Speaker 1 (24:13): Toothy grin in one. It is really subtle, but there is, if I just even look at her mouth, it feels a little less smiley in the reflection. And her eyebrows too, just feel a little less. Speaker 2 (24:29): Yeah, it's the eyes. It's the eyes. Now I'm going to tell you something different. So if it's me, I like the darker colors because the light sometimes is really, being in the spotlight is not something I prefer. I do not like being in bright lights. I don't like being the center of attention. It's funny on a podcast, but I like the darker version of things. Are you a person who prefers the light or do you not being in the spotlight? Where do you land on that? Speaker 1 (25:01): We're talking in real life. In real life. Oh, I love being in the spotlight. Speaker 2 (25:06): Okay, Speaker 1 (25:06): Okay. Yeah. You don't just start doing things like this because you don't like the attention Speaker 2 (25:11): You don't make. I'm the host of a podcast. Yep. Speaker 1 (25:12): No, no. I'm very comfortable. I love being in front of people. I love, it's easily my favorite part of my job. So if I were, what would I rather be doing? Sitting at my desk doing budgets or giving a tour in front of total strangers? Absolutely. Pick the strangers any day. Absolutely. Speaker 2 (25:29): And learning about other people and things like that. Speaker 1 (25:31): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. Speaker 2 (25:35): Okay. Okay. So let's get back to our woman of the hour here. So if I were to ask you, you said the colors, the darkness of the colors make you feel like that one, she's less happy in that, what is it about dark colors? What do you associate that with in your brain? Speaker 1 (25:53): It isn't just the dark colors. I shouldn't say because the same colors that are probably the darkest part of that painting are also in the outside part of the painting. So if I look in, say the shadows around that cherub's butt, it's the same color, or even this dark part of the red curtain, it's the same color. So it's not one color acting by itself. It's a lot of them together. It's actually the absence of the bright. So Speaker 2 (26:18): The Speaker 1 (26:18): Highlights on her face are much more muted in that version. So it's about a comparison more than it is anything else. It's about the comparison of how much brighter and more colorful she looks in one than in the other. That makes me make this one feel sadder. Speaker 2 (26:36): So let's get into that. So why do you think the reflection in the mirror is darker? Speaker 1 (26:44): Well, in real life world, I think, I don't know how this is where it gets tricky for me. I don't know exactly which angle to approach it, but my real answer, if you were asking me that question is I think it was an artistic choice because the artist is trying to make sure we understand pretty quickly that this is a reflection and not another human being in real life. That reflection might be just as high contrast as you would see it, but you put a little gloss or something over it to mute it to make a distinction that we would in real life understand immediately just by looking at it. But sometimes in a painting, those things can get confused. So you figure out these little tricks to do. So that's my real answer is I think it's a choice made to make it read as a reflection clearer. Speaker 2 (27:32): So what would be your answer if I said, why do you think he made the expressions different? Slightly different? I Speaker 1 (27:37): Mean that, yes. That's a good question. That I think could be intentional. It's interesting. I don't know whether it's intentional or not. It could be a total accident. It could be trying to make the same expression. But there's something, what I think makes this painting actually fascinating is, and probably why a lot of people enjoy looking at it, is that it feels like he's trying to make some sort of statement about the difference between what we present to others and what we present to ourselves or correct Speaker 2 (28:09): What we see. Speaker 1 (28:10): Right? Speaker 2 (28:10): Yeah. Speaker 1 (28:11): That's what it feels like. Speaker 2 (28:12): I don't Speaker 1 (28:13): Know if that's intentional or not, but that's what I Speaker 2 (28:15): Think. I'm right there. I'm right there with you. I'm looking at the way her hand is touching that too. Speaker 1 (28:20): So Speaker 2 (28:21): What I'm thinking, I guess what it makes me feel is that we all kind of have these dichotomous parts of ourselves. There's the person that everybody sees and then the person that we see. And for me, and I don't know what this says, this is where this conversation is helpful to me, but the brightness and the reality of the central face there Speaker 2 (28:46): Being what other people see, and then the way that she's touching, the more muted tones and the look in her eyes is what haunts me here is telling me maybe they don't know. Maybe they don't know what I see when I look in the mirror, maybe I don't see what other people see when they look at me. That's sort of my take on this. So if you were to ask me where does that come from or why, what does feeling does that associate for you? That's where I'm going to tell you that's a little bit of a scary feeling. That's a scary thing to admit or a scary thing to think about. And even if this is an artist's choice or whatever, do you feel like there are two versions of yourself? Do you feel like there's you that some people see, or maybe in certain groups you're one person and other groups you're another. How does that feel to you? Speaker 1 (29:29): Oh, absolutely. Speaker 2 (29:30): That interpretation. Speaker 1 (29:31): I'm a total chameleon. Speaker 2 (29:33): You can identify with that. Oh Speaker 1 (29:34): Yeah. And it's weird. I think on some levels there are definitely aspects. I mean, I think that this is in probably smaller ways. I don't think when I say, oh, absolutely, the mirror me will say, I don't think it's dramatically different, but I think it's more subtle. It's like those little subtle shades of performance you put on. Yeah, totally. And it's really fascinating. I don't know, I'm sure this has been off discuss, so again, not an original idea, but as everybody's, so many people are working from home, and if you're married and you're listening to your spouse on work calls, Speaker 2 (30:12): You Speaker 1 (30:12): Immediately are like, oh, you have a work voice. Speaker 2 (30:14): Right? Right. Yes. And Speaker 1 (30:16): So I've heard it and my husband, and I'm sure he's heard my work voice and especially somebody that you live with and you're so comfortable with where, you know, sound different than that. I'm Speaker 2 (30:28): Glad I'm not the only one. Yes, I totally get that. Speaker 1 (30:30): Or what's also funny is I'm on calls with my colleagues here and we're on a call, and then suddenly their spouse will walk into the room and they talk to them at home and it's like, oh, that's a different, I don't hear that. I don't hear that. I think we've all probably had those moments. So yeah, I'm really aware of that. Or the way I'll butch up my speak my speech sometimes when I'm like, if I have to talk to a mechanic. Speaker 2 (31:01): Yeah, yeah, no, I totally get it. You're like, I know about this. You can respect me. I know these answers Speaker 1 (31:06): Even though I don't know anything about it. You're Speaker 2 (31:09): A val and you're like, no, I can get that windshield wiper cheaper somewhere else. Speaker 1 (31:12): So yeah, I think there's definitely, I don't think of it as, oh, there's a whole new different me, but I am very aware of the way I'm subtly modulating those Speaker 2 (31:26): Massaging. And why do you think you've adapted these different versions? We kind of touched on it when we talked about the mechanic. Why do you think we adapt different versions of ourselves? Speaker 1 (31:35): Yeah, it's about coming across as maybe respectable in some instances or professional in some cases when we're talking about that work voice that's different than your home voice. So it is about the, Speaker 2 (31:53): It's about survival. It's about survival. If I am going to go visit somebody, a friend who just lost a loved one or something, I'm not going to be super jovial and happy and I'm going to put on a version of myself that's empathic and ready for this. And so I almost think when I look at her, and we know this is Venus, so she's a very prolific individual, but I almost think that she has this public aura. She has this one version of herself, you're smiling where I'm going with this. And then there's this other part of her that maybe she's not as comfortable revealing or the way that hand is touching her face that for Lauren, sort of like, oh, you. It's like, are we okay as a society having different versions of ourselves that feel safe? Is that okay? Right. And how often do we talk about that? Speaker 1 (32:42): Why I'm actually laughing and smiling is more that the idea that she's not a person, she's the embodiment of an idea of love. So even that is kind of funny to me, that she would have this sort of level of pathos. Speaker 2 (32:56): She's like a cynic. Yeah, Speaker 1 (32:58): Because why would she, there's almost no reason for it. Speaker 2 (33:01): Are you break my heart and tell me none of this ever. No, there's no love anywhere. Speaker 1 (33:03): Well, but I mean, then again, actually that's fitting more fitting with the idea of the sort of fallibility of the gods when we get into Greek and romance. So I mean, maybe that's perfect. I mean, they are sort of flawed characters. They're not supposed to be perfect ideals. So I mean, that's actually kind of great. Maybe Speaker 2 (33:22): We might've just landed on what the artist was trying to convey there. Russell, look at us. No, I appreciate your insights and I think it's interesting to think, well, first of all, this conversation is enlightening to me because look where we traveled from where we started. It's great, but it really makes me think, and it helps me to hear you say that you have different versions of yourself. Because I a hundred percent identify, I've been in professional settings where I really get along with the person. I'm like, am I being a little too personal Kimmy, or do I need to reign it in? You know what I mean? And it's like I'm not totally comfortable with that. I want to be able to be my most genuine self around everybody. But yeah, when I go to Valvoline and they offer me air filters and I just got it replaced last week, I have to be a little rough around the edge. I have to act. I know that it's really dirty and I don't know what I'm talking about. But no, I think we do these things for survival and to know that it's okay is helpful in feeling safe, right? Oh, I'm actually doing these things to survive. I'm not just hiding parts of myself. I'm adapting and conforming and ebbing and flowing. Speaker 1 (34:28): I'm always very aware of how I do it. Or I guess, no, that's not true. I have become more aware of how I do it over the years. I probably wasn't very aware of how much I did it when I was 20, but it's something I've also just observed. It's something I find endlessly fascinating, is the kind of, I think of it as there's an invisible script that everyone has to follow in polite society or in just society in general. And it's really fascinating and delightful to me when somebody doesn't know the script. And I was at the symphony one time and there was this woman sitting, I don't know, she was maybe in the next row in front of me and down just a little bit. And it was this really modern kind of slow, very quiet piece that they were playing at first. And she reaches into her purse and she pulls out a chicken sandwich. Speaker 2 (35:28): Oh my gosh. Speaker 1 (35:29): Wrapped in paper. Oh my gosh. And she starts unwrapping it kind of loudly. And I'm looking at her and I'm shooting daggers at her and like, oh my gosh, what is going on? Oh my gosh. And then she kind of gets out the sandwich. She unwraps it, and then she reaches back into her purse and she pulls out a can of Sprite. No. And then she cracks it open in the middle. Speaker 2 (35:53): Did she look up at all? Did she look around or did she have any awareness? I Speaker 1 (35:56): Don't think so. Oh my gosh. From, I was very like, oh my God, I can't believe this woman. Until I watched other people reacting like I was Speaker 2 (36:07): Right. Speaker 1 (36:08): And then I was her biggest fan, basically. I started loving her. You do you. I love it. Bring a chicken sandwich to the symphony. Open that Sprite. Speaker 2 (36:17): I was going to say, there's so many things about this story that are red flags to me. First of all, where do you get a sandwich in wrapper like that? Unless maybe did you bring it from home? Was it in foil? Speaker 1 (36:28): I think? No, it was paper. Maybe Wendy's or something. Stop. I don't know. I couldn't mean it wasn't close enough to read it my, but it felt like something you bought somewhere Speaker 2 (36:38): Else. Anytime is chicken time. Speaker 1 (36:39): Yeah. And it was just funny because it took me watching other people being mad to make me not mad. Do you Speaker 2 (36:46): Ever wish that there were times that you could be her, that you just didn't care if you followed the societal rules? Oh my gosh. That you just like Speaker 1 (36:52): If only. Speaker 2 (36:54): Exactly. No, that's what I actually, I'm going to bring it back to this. Is there a part of her, I feel like you're like, oh my God, trying to bring it back to the art. But I was thinking that No, you should. Speaker 1 (37:03): Somebody should. That's my job. But I'm glad you're doing it. Yeah, I Speaker 2 (37:05): Wasn't waiting for you to say she opened a bag of chips. Just the worst with the smell. We just incite all the senses there. But no, I'm looking at her and I actually think that she has a forlorned look in the version of her that is bright and Speaker 1 (37:18): Colorful. Speaker 2 (37:19): And I'm almost wondering, I have literally felt like this in certain situations. Like, oh, I wish I could say what I'm really thinking. Or I wish people really knew what I was where I'm at with this. But I feel like that's possibly, we talked about maybe society has this image of her or this thought of what she represents, and it's like, is she aching to be different or be her real self, or is this version look how she's looking out at everybody else in the Speaker 1 (37:49): Mirror? Speaker 2 (37:49): That to me is very, I don't know. It's haunting to me. Her look in the mirror is what is like, Speaker 1 (37:56): Yeah, I think that's a great way of describing her look, real life her. I feel like there is a certain longing to her expression that you captured there. That's when I kept kind of not knowing how to describe it very well, but I kept, well, she's not really happy or sad. So I think that longing is a great way of think about, Speaker 2 (38:16): She's almost resolute like, well, I'm just going to do this what I do every day. You know what I mean? It almost looks like she's just like, she looks older in that version and she looks more weathered. I don't know how to even say it. She just looks in Speaker 1 (38:31): The mirror. Speaker 2 (38:31): Yeah, it Speaker 1 (38:32): Just Speaker 2 (38:32): Looks like I've been doing this for so long because this version of her in the light, she's got these rosy cheeks, she's got this suppleness. You know what I mean? It's just different. Speaker 1 (38:41): Yeah. There's a steeliness to the reflection that maybe also corresponds to that idea of age that you're maybe talking about too. Speaker 2 (38:51): How do you think, if you felt like that, what would help you get out of that space that she's in? If you felt like you were muted, what would help you feel safer? What conditions would make you feel safe to be your real self, to be your true self? Speaker 1 (39:07): I mean, I think just being around people that you do feel comfortable being authentic around. Because we all, as we were talking about these different places we go and different sort of personas, you have those people that you do feel like, oh no, this is the most authentic. And I think that is probably what most of our friendships have in common is that you, there's probably somebody that you feel more, Speaker 2 (39:33): That you trust, Speaker 1 (39:34): That you feel more authentic Speaker 2 (39:36): Around. And authenticity, to me comes from that trust. I don't trust necessarily the guy at the autobody shop because he's always trying to upcharge me. He's shown me that he's, you know what I mean? Right. I mean, it's totally true. So it comes down to when can I be that person in the mirror? And I think it's only with the select few people that we really invest in Speaker 1 (39:55): And Speaker 2 (39:55): That we trust. And I love the word authenticity. Well, I've nodded this two pieces here with you, but this was fascinating to me. You see entirely different things than I do, Speaker 1 (40:08): Really, Speaker 2 (40:08): Which is great. Yeah. When you started talking about the color, I was like, oh, I was really looking at the facial features and I had this big grand interpretation of it, and I just loved hearing your take on it. Speaker 1 (40:18): I Speaker 2 (40:18): Thought that was fascinating. Speaker 1 (40:19): Yeah. Like I said, it's sometimes a little hard for me to divorce my particular angle, which is I am always thinking about why an artist does something. Why did they make this choice? Why did they do that? And Speaker 2 (40:31): Do you know what you're doing when you do that though? Speaker 1 (40:33): What Speaker 2 (40:33): You're building empathy. That's wonderful. I thought about, I was listening to the song, let It Be My mom Loves The Beatles and she sends me Beatles songs every day. And I was thinking the other day, what? Because it almost brought me to tears. I love the guitar solo, but I was like, what was John? What were they thinking when they wrote this song? They had to be exasperated by something. You know what I mean? Why would they be telling people to let it be? And luckily, Speaker 1 (40:55): There's now a eight hour documentary that I will tell you all about it. Thank Speaker 2 (40:59): You. Now I don't have to wonder mean thank you Speaker 1 (41:00): Peter Jackson. Speaker 2 (41:01): But I really was thinking, I get it. I have had days, especially since Covid, where I'm like, oh my God, can we just let it be? You know what I mean? I can't tell you that. So it was really, when you say you're wondering why the artist did what he did, kudos to you because that's you building empathy and trying to find that common space. And that's really hard actually a lot of times. So you know what I mean, Speaker 1 (41:25): To make me sound maybe a little less noble. It's also Speaker 2 (41:28): Do you want to do that? Speaker 1 (41:29): Yeah, I always do. Take Speaker 2 (41:30): This Speaker 1 (41:30): Moment. I don't always, I definitely don't want that Speaker 2 (41:34): Walk away now. Speaker 1 (41:35): No. I think to me that's also if you are an artist, and I don't subscribe to the idea that Van Gogh may have been very particularly sad Speaker 1 (41:46): And he may have made a painting that made you feel very particularly sad. But I don't think it's some magical conduit that is transferring one person's sadness through paint and back into you. I don't think it's that shamanistic. I think it is more that he has made choices in the painting that make you feel that way. And that is what I'm always interested in is what are the choices this person has made in that is making me feel that way. And I feel like that if you also aspire to make things that make people feel certain ways, you will learn more by studying that and trying to break that down, then you will by just sort of like, well, if I feel this way while I make this thing, it's going to suddenly magically make somebody. And that's not usually how it works. Speaker 2 (42:35): Do you create things? Are you an artist yourself? Do you do art in your own time? So when you do art, do you think of it like that, I want this to make people feel a certain way? Or are you just hoping to achieve a feeling of some sort? Speaker 1 (42:47): Yeah, like a feeling. And sometimes that's maybe intangible or you can't necessarily put it into words at the moment. I feel like usually hindsight is 2020 on things like that where you look back at something you made years later and it's like suddenly snaps into focus like, oh, that's what this Speaker 2 (43:08): Was about. I was having a rough time then. Speaker 1 (43:10): Or you just realize, oh, I was working through this. Speaker 2 (43:13): And Speaker 1 (43:13): I've always been a person who's almost able to be more honest and in that work in that way than I even am with myself, where I'm looking at stuff I made as a teenager and I'm like, oh my God, this work is so queer. I did not know that about myself or just was not allowing myself to know that about. It's just like it gets really, really fascinating. Speaker 2 (43:42): The beauty of artwork though, that's the absolute beauty of it, is that it teaches us about ourselves in this conversation. I'm learning about myself. I am learning far more coming out of this than I knew going into it. And because we took this piece to talk about it, I'm going to remember this piece, this image, and it's going to connect in my brain, this feeling I'm feeling, this shared space. That's great. Speaker 1 (44:03): Well, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. Speaker 2 (44:06): No, absolutely. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Speaker 1 (44:14): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. The museum is currently open, but please visit our website for the most up-to-date information about operating hours and museum policies. Upcoming special exhibitions are working together, the photographers of the Kamo Gay Workshop and David Driscoll, icons of nature and history, both open on February 25th. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and we also have an Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is FRA Music. How By Blau. And as always, please rate and review us to help others find the show. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.