Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): These glazes are so important. Wars have been fought over that glaze. Speaker 1 (00:21): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's school person is Ben Clark, owner of Queen City Clay. Speaker 2 (00:46): Well, what all do you want to know? I mean, what do I want to know? What should we focus on? Because we could start with the material that I work in. We could talk about what the shop does and how we collaborate sometimes with the, I mean, we can do, Speaker 1 (01:02): Well, that would be the sensible thing to do, right? Is to talk about clay because you've got a clay shop and all that. But what I really want to ask you about is jump rope. Speaker 2 (01:09): Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 (01:13): That's what we're really going to talk about is jump roping. This whole Speaker 2 (01:16): Time Speaker 1 (01:17): You were a jump roper. Speaker 2 (01:19): I was a jump roper. Speaker 1 (01:20): But you just said your doctor not, are you now allowed to jump rope again or? Speaker 2 (01:24): Well, okay, so I had surgery December 6th, and I'm back to where I can move around. I've got almost full range of motion, but then most people who are wanting to get back to their normal life do not work where I work or have the interests that I have. So I said, okay, when can I do handstands? When I'm going to do back flips, when can I jump rope? And they just looked at me like, who are you? And I said, no, for real. I asked the doctor, he said that he would get me back to the shoulder I had in the high school, so that's what I expect. And so they started working on me to where I'm putting a bunch of pressure on it and stuff like that. So they said that within a month or so you'll be back. Yeah, I'll be to doing the basics, but apparently my bicep is attached in a different way than it used to be. Speaker 1 (02:20): Weird. Speaker 2 (02:21): So building that back up is a problem. But I am going to get there. Speaker 1 (02:27): So, okay, so before we're totally going to talk about clay. We will, but how did you start jump roping That came before Clay, right? Speaker 2 (02:35): Yeah. Way before Clay, my fifth grade teacher was a coach, a jump rope coach because the American Heart Association would hire all of these teachers to start teams jump rope for heart. Everybody remembers that. And we were demonstration Speaker 1 (02:54): Teams. Well, old people remember that. Like us. Speaker 2 (02:55): Exactly. Old Speaker 1 (02:56): People probably. I mean, do they still do it? I Speaker 2 (02:58): Think they do. Even last year I saw a few schools do it. But if you think about when you look across the country, and there are tons of places that just have no money. And so a fancy soccer program or whatever, a lacrosse team that is out of reach, but a jump rope is super cheap. You don't need any special shoes or anything. You just do it barefoot outside. And so that type of thing, we were promoting that because that's what we did, and it's better for your heart than just about anything. And so we started just kind of spreading the word, going from school to school and doing these little Speaker 2 (03:37): Hour long demonstrations, double Dutch, single rope endurance type stuff that some of the stuff you see boxers do. And pretty soon there were 10,000 teams across the United States all doing these demonstrations. And so we would have camps where you'd go in the summer and you'd try different tricks and learn from each other. And pretty soon you're competing against each other and then going to different countries and showing them. And now it's everywhere. They've met with the Olympic committee several times. It might be an Olympic sport here pretty soon. So I just got started because my teacher was one of those guys. And when you get to high school and you're going to Germany twice a year and getting to travel around, do these huge performances in front of 5,000 people and you get free clothes and bags. I mean, we thought it was the greatest thing ever. Speaker 1 (04:31): Sure. Speaker 2 (04:32): My sister was in second grade and she was performing at the White House for the president. And so I was small. I mean, I was really short and I'm still only five eight, but back then I was teeny. And so I played soccer. I was passionate about it, but just not big enough to compete, not strong enough to compete in that. But in jump rope, I could jump high and I had good shoulder endurance, and my team was one of the best in the world already. So to do anything with the older kids, you just had to get good kind of fast. And so I worked my butt off. And then pretty soon we were all over the world doing all kinds of fun things. Speaker 1 (05:14): That's so crazy. I just remember there was just such a weird thing when you started working with me and it was like, oh, and he's an international jump rope champion or something. I don't know. Is that true? Are you an international jump rope champion? I don't even remember if that's, Speaker 2 (05:31): So I was a two time world champion, but the thing about jump rope is when they're trying to do these huge competitions, there was infighting between West Coast teams and other teams. And so the first World championships I did, I didn't feel like it was the best in the world. I won. And I can say I was world champion, but then the next one was all the first world championships they ever had were all of the organizations everywhere, got together and formed the International Rope Skipping Organization, and this was their first world championships in Sydney, Australia. And I won that one. And so then I felt like, okay, Speaker 1 (06:17): You've earned Speaker 2 (06:18): This. That was legit. Speaker 1 (06:19): This is a legit world championship. Speaker 2 (06:22): And I've won national championships and we did Junior Olympics and stuff like that. But no, compared to what the sport is now, I don't think with the skills I had back then, I could compete with the kids that are doing it now. They're doing things that I can't even comprehend. I mean, they're just unbelievable. Speaker 1 (06:41): That's crazy. Speaker 2 (06:42): Yeah. Speaker 1 (06:44): Okay, so we will leave jump roping behind. I just had to talk about it. So how did Clay start? Speaker 2 (06:54): Clay start? Well, Speaker 1 (06:55): I mean not like the history of, Speaker 2 (06:56): Yeah. Well, Speaker 1 (06:59): No. Start with the formation of the Earth. That's right. Speaker 2 (07:02): That's, so fifth grade apparently was a magic year for me because Speaker 1 (07:08): This is the same year. Speaker 2 (07:08): Yes. So I had, that's crazy. Our local potter, Scott Schafer came to our elementary school and did a little demo. We had an old log cabin at our school. And so every year the fifth graders would get to go down, stay overnight in this cabin, and they'd teach you how to make butter and stuff like you were a pioneer, which we thought was the greatest thing ever. And he came and he did a demo on the wheel, and I was floored. I thought it was really cool to watch, but then you just kind of forget about it. And then when I got into college, I just took a class, I saw a pottery class and I thought, okay, I got a couple credits, I got a fill. So I tried it and it was instantaneous the first time I tried, I just wanted to do it all the time. And so I took it every semester of college and Speaker 1 (08:01): Didn't Speaker 2 (08:02): Take it seriously as a career. And so I majored in creative writing because a much more lucrative career. Everyone knows Speaker 1 (08:12): That it's something every parent wants to hear. That's right. Look, I'm chosen a practical career path and creative writing as opposed to pottery or jump. Yeah, Speaker 2 (08:25): My fallback is pottery. Speaker 1 (08:27): Right, Speaker 2 (08:27): Exactly. And so I got my degree in that. But then after college, it became very obvious that I had to stay with clay. And so I ended up going to grad school and then doing an apprenticeship with that same guy who came to the school in fifth grade. Oh, cool. And did a year long professional apprenticeship with him, which taught me all kinds of stuff. And then moved to Cincinnati. Speaker 1 (08:53): Did you have any other kind of artistic things you were interested in when you were a kid? Did you draw or do anything else? Speaker 2 (08:59): No. So here's my story for everyone out there who doesn't feel like they have any artistic ability. I still drawing. I know it's a learned skill, but in school there are kids who can draw. It's Speaker 1 (09:15): True. Speaker 2 (09:16): They come out of the womb and they get to school and they just draw and they're amazing at it. And so you look at that and you just think, well, I'll never be an artist because you can't do that. And in painting, it was the same way. I love to paint, but I am not a good painter. And I had taken multiple classes in that just didn't, the drive wasn't there. But with clay, you take nothing and then you make this bowl or a cup or whatever. And so that again is just this little sketch. It's learning to draw. And then how are you going to alter that cup? How are you going to change the surface? And every single little step you learn is physical and it's super fun. And so it stuck with me forever. And then as soon as that happens, you just get tons of ideas. I don't care if you don't even see yourself as an idea person. It's just natural. Oh, I can make a bull. What kind of bull do I want to make? And it's the next step. So even though I've never felt like an artist in clay, I feel like I can live in that realm Speaker 1 (10:24): And Speaker 2 (10:24): I can make decisions and I can even help other people get to a good point and see that with everything else, I couldn't do that. But in grad school, I did really enjoy learning to talk about painting and drawing and sculpture and all of that, and learn what I could provide to the artist as far as being a viewer looking at that and saying what my emotive response was and my limited academic knowledge of the painted surface. Speaker 1 (10:55): Yeah, that's something, actually, it's kind of funny. When I started here and they were sort of teaching me about different approaches to gallery experiences and how we talk with the visitors about art. And at a certain point I was like, oh yeah, I got this. I've been in so many critiques. That's what this is. You're just talking about a critique, and I've done this for hours and hours and hours of my life. You're telling me, oh, somebody's going to throw something on the wall and you're going to have to talk about it. And that's the experience. And you just get really good at that of like, yeah, let's talk about this. God, I love critiques. I could go to a critique every day. Speaker 2 (11:35): Well, and for a long time, because I started out without that drawing skill and everything, I honestly felt like I had nothing to add to a critique because I was the person, most people who will look at a picture of a Rothko and go, I do that. And you don't understand what goes into that until you're standing in front of one and you have some background with painting, and then you think, my God, it just opens your eyes. And so at learning a little bit of that and just being able to say, okay, I'm in front of this painting or this drawing or whatever, and here's what I'm paying attention to and what's talking to me, what's speaking to me, and how I feel about it. And those basic things, when you let that out, it does something and you feel like, okay, my voice does have some benefit. Speaker 1 (12:35): Right. Well, I remember, it's funny that you kind of bring up that I could do that attitude because I remember you talking about a ceramic piece once here with me. We were walking through and you were looking at this piece and it was a Japanese artist, and I don't remember Speaker 2 (12:53): Who Speaker 1 (12:54): It was at this point, so I apologize. But I just remember it was one that probably most people would have that reaction to, this looks like a pile of clay. This does not look like anything. It looks like a rock, basically, it just a big lump. Speaker 2 (13:07): And Speaker 1 (13:07): You were just like, oh, this is so crazy. What's going on here is nuts. Speaker 2 (13:13): The Speaker 1 (13:13): Way they had to make this is so, so hard. And you went in and I was just like, oh, wow. I mean, look, I subscribed to the whole duchampian theory that basically the artist, all they have to do is point their finger at something and say, it's art. And we all have to basically take it for art. You don't have to like it, but you have to kind of accept it as art. And then it's up to you to go, yeah, I like it, or I don't like it, or whatever. And so it's like I don't really stop and think a lot about it in that kind of way, but still, it was a piece that I probably hadn't thought a lot of. And it was fun to watch you be so passionate about it because you were seeing all this other stuff that I would never have noticed and I would never have known about it just because I don't know enough about ceramics and how they work Speaker 2 (13:55): Well, and all that background you learn makes a huge difference. And being able to see that, and for me, I remember learning problem solving and kind of an artistic process in that I saw a sculpture where a person had, you look outside this landscape and there's this giant cube sitting on the ground, and it's the dirt, the layers of dirt, and then grass on top of it. And right beside it is where it was cut out of the ground. And you think, oh, well that's cool. Well no, try and do that. Try and make a perfect cube come out of the ground. The process that you have to use to show that visually is so ridiculously complicated and so hard to do well that all of a sudden you go, okay, alright, now I get it. Start with a problem, work through it. What do I want to convey with this? And if you do it really well, there can be this beautiful thing where it doesn't even occur to people that it was hard. Oh, Speaker 1 (14:59): Yeah. I mean, kind of comparing it to a Rothko or sort of color field paintings. And I remember the first few times I tried to make something kind of minimalist and austere, I realized like, oh, this is hard because there's no way to disguise all your mistakes Speaker 2 (15:16): And you've got to say a whole bunch of stuff, less stuff mean. But yeah, Speaker 1 (15:20): It's like when you're dealing with, if you're making a super painterly image or something, you're able to disguise a lot more with that, and you don't pay attention to even the craft of the thing you're painting on. Or when you're doing something so minimalist that all of a sudden every detail counts and you have to Speaker 2 (15:45): Take Speaker 1 (15:45): Every single thing into consideration, and it's just like, oh yeah, the edge of this is now that side of the painting that nobody used to look at. Now it matters because it's like this pristine object I'm trying to make. And if it's got fingerprints on the side, it ruins everything. Speaker 2 (16:04): Well, that's one of my favorite things to teach at the shop is you take students and they learn the basics on the wheel or hand building or something. And then we get to a point where we teach mugs. And at no point do I see mugs as fine art. It's a craft, and it's something that's used every day, and it's this object you kind of forget about. But when you get to the point where you're learning to make it and you start asking people questions, we'll lay out 20 mugs on a table and say, okay, I want you guys to put these in a row from the best mug to the worst mug. And they start to argue and without you having to do anything, and they're critiquing without knowing it. Speaker 2 (16:49): And pretty soon you say, well, why is this the best? And they will start to say, well, because the way I grab a mug, it fits really well. Okay, well how do you grab a mug? And everyone's different. And well, when I put it to my mouth, it doesn't bump my nose, and when I hold it, it's pretty lightweight. Or some people say it's hefty. I like the feel of that they break it down and all of a sudden they see mugs in a completely different way. And that's one of my favorite things to make because it's so personal and you're putting it to your face every single morning. You interact with it really closely. So as a potter, if you do that well, someone's going to pick your mug as their favorite mug every single morning to have their coffee because for some reason that makes their morning better. And if you screw it up, it is so blatantly obvious. So that's kind of that thing where every line, every negative space, every surface all matters in this teeny little object that we don't even give a second thought to. Because for the last 40 years, you could get it for almost nothing at the hardware store or at Walmart now. And Speaker 1 (18:02): Yeah, I mean, it breaks it down into this. You have to think about your mug and this whole relationship and the experience of using it in a much more critical way that you never do because yeah, like you said, it's just second nature. You don't think about it, Speaker 2 (18:18): Which is actually really nice to see that a ton of people are thinking about it now. The more restaurants are buying handmade pots to display their food, and they have us design the pots specifically for a dish they're serving because of the color and the shape and everything. And people wanting to know where their plates and dishes come from. Again, just like they want to know the farmer that's making their stuff instead of it just coming from some unknown part of the world. Speaker 1 (18:44): And my mom sent me this picture recently of this glass mug that she found at home, and she's like, did you make this? And I was like, yeah, I did. I made it in the one hot glass class I took in Speaker 2 (18:57): College. Speaker 1 (18:58): And I was looking at it and remembering like, oh man, this mug is impossible to drink out of. Speaker 2 (19:04): Yeah. So Speaker 1 (19:05): It made me realize that there's so much more into making a mug as well, or just anything you are supposed to actually drink out of, because the lip was so fat Speaker 2 (19:16): That Speaker 1 (19:17): If you just drink out of it, you would just end up with water all time. Speaker 2 (19:19): Right, exactly. Yeah. Even. And you think of the flow of liquid and everything, so they go from mugs to pitchers and stuff, and how is the water going to move and how much does it need to contain? And all of this stuff. So they start to think about their daily lives and that ritual they go through. And as I get older, rituals become more important to me. So my daily coffee is way more important now than it was 10 years ago. And sitting down and having an actual dinner where you made everything and everyone's talking, that's huge. And I want to make sure that I'm doing that as much as possible. And it's all because of that things go so fast that you just miss a bunch of stuff or else you're not paying attention to what's happening at that moment, and you got to come back to it. So hopefully that's one of the things we go through in pottery is when you're sitting at the wheel, you can only focus on what's in front of you or else it dies. Right? You can't have your head anywhere else. And so hopefully that translates to the students' daily lives and they use that. Speaker 1 (20:28): It just made me think when you're talking about making a dinner, I remember being at your house and of course all of your dinner plates you made. Speaker 2 (20:35): Yeah. Speaker 1 (20:36): It shouldn't be too surprising, but is it common for you to like, oh, we really need this thing. Can you make one? Is that something you do instead of just running out to target? Is that a common thing of like, oh, I really wish this, we need a salad bowl, but it's like it needs to be about this big or I don't know. Speaker 2 (20:56): Absolutely. Yeah, we do that a bunch now, Krista, my wife will tell you though, that what we have in our house is all broken or flawed because I sell Speaker 1 (21:08): The good stuff Speaker 2 (21:09): Or give away everything else. That's good. And so all we have is either great stuff from other potters or my stuff that's cracked and broken in some way. But yeah, I mean, she says, okay, I want to compost jar and I want it like this, and two years later I'll get it for you. But we do that all the time. I mean, when I make stuff for a show, I always make as much as I possibly can within the time I have. And right before the show, we walk through and salt and pepper shakers and butter dish and stuff like that, we'll pull aside for ourselves Speaker 1 (21:46): To Speaker 2 (21:46): Have at the house. Speaker 1 (21:47): I like that potters feel a lot more comfortable maybe with the commerce side of what they do than maybe a lot of fine artists where it's this a little bit of a tortured relationship with money and selling the work and just the idea of making something for an audience that wants this thing to buy it and becoming a commodity or something. And it's just like there's something also kind of lovely about just being like, well, no, I'm going to make as many of these plates as I can. They sell for this much, they make a lot of money. I'm going to make a bunch of 'em because people want 'em. And yeah, it's like, why not? Speaker 2 (22:27): So every year, the shop has two big sales. We have a spring sale and a holiday sale. And the reason we started it was not just to have a pottery sale sailors, because we had a ton of students that were to the point where their work was good enough to sell, but they didn't know how to do it. So we would do a pricing workshop, and then we have 50 of our students at every table in the shop and they're selling work. And you see the first few times they do this, they sit behind the table with their arms folded and just hope that someone walks up and says, oh, I love this and takes it. But with potters, you learn pretty quick that yes, if they're comfortable with their work, then what they're talking about is, yeah, this is a great play. I made it because these stack really well and thinly so you can get more in your cabinet without having a problem. Or these bowls, I love the way I carry 'em around the house. They have a little handle so that you can walk around and switch from the dining room to the back porch with your super. Speaker 1 (23:34): They Speaker 2 (23:34): All have their thing that they're doing with their pottery, and so you see 'em open up and start to talk about that. Whereas when I was painting in grad school and you would think presenting that work, you had an idea, you expressed the idea. And for me, I never fully knew whether I got that idea across. So I, Speaker 1 (23:57): Well, I feel like there's something, I Speaker 2 (23:58): Protected it. Speaker 1 (24:00): Yeah, there's no expectation. And of course there are people who are good salesmen of their art in that world, but it's just not the same thing. I don't know. You're not expected to sell it, and maybe because it is practical, you have more of an angle, but just thinking of you discussing the difference of somebody sitting quietly with their arms folded, that is kind of the default for, I feel like what a painter is supposed to do most is to be quiet Speaker 2 (24:29): And Speaker 1 (24:29): Then maybe somebody asks them their thoughts, but they're not going to go up to you and be like, this painting is going to look great above your couch. I'm going to tell you what it's about. It's got the beautiful thing about, it's so neutral, so you can paint your walls whatever color you want. That's right. You shouldn't be thinking about such banal issues as the couch color or something. But that's the reality of probably why somebody's going to buy it is they are thinking about it and Oh, this would look great in the house, but you're not supposed to think about that and you shouldn't be making it for that reason. So those ideas become vulgar to discuss out loud or to even think about. But yeah, so I kind of love that you can be so comfortable with that when you're making something that is a commodity like, well, everyone's got to eat, everyone's eat on something, so might as well be the stuff I make. Speaker 2 (25:19): Well, potters do live on the fence, I feel like because you've got that side of it. But then I've had people who walked in and said, oh my God, when you make a bigger vase that is really going to just sit in somebody's house, they're not buying it for anything other than decoration, Speaker 1 (25:39): And they're probably not actually going to put flowers in it or anything either. It's like, Speaker 2 (25:42): And they say, oh, I love that. And then they buy it and then a couple weeks later they'll call and they'll say, Hey, I didn't realize it, but it doesn't really match my carpet. Could I bring it back? And those people are like, I would like you to trip. Speaker 1 (25:57): Didn't break it. Speaker 2 (26:01): Yeah, because a lot of it's educating the public on it is kind of a piece of art, even the functional stuff, and it doesn't need to match what's in your house. A lot of times it can just be an object you enjoy and you enjoy using, and that doesn't mean that it needs to color match your counter or something. So Speaker 1 (26:28): We've kind of talked about this division between the fine art pottery and the practical, and I'm wondering where does that shift happen for you and does it slide, does a work ever slide from one to the other or you started making something without knowing what it's going to be and then it sort of purpose is revealed to you later? Speaker 2 (26:56): My business is mainly getting students to forget all of that and to just learn to make first. And then we deal with that stuff later with potters. When you look at some of the best around the world, people would argue that it doesn't matter how nice a plate is, it's still a plate Speaker 1 (27:18): And Speaker 2 (27:18): It has a function and it's not just a thought provoking object. And so it is out of the fine art realm. But I have seen, and I continually see masters in ceramics make something, and maybe it is by all means a salad bowl, but the way the glaze was applied, the way it relates to nature or the potter surroundings and what it says about what we are focused on as a society at mealtime at any given point or family discussion, all of that can be communicated through a bowl. And some of them are so brilliant that I can't get past it. I think it does slip from this functional just decorative piece to something more. And when I'm working and stuff, I haven't gotten to that point where I feel like my functional stuff goes to that Speaker 1 (28:19): Level. Speaker 2 (28:20): But I do feel like I've made some thought provoking sculptures out of clay that really let people understand the origins of clay and think about it coming out of the ground and what that material looks like in its raw state and at the same time shows a finish that gives you an emotive response and that type of thing. I feel like, okay, I've done it. This is a piece of art. But I mean for me, it doesn't happen that often, but there are people working in clay where I feel like every piece is like that. Speaker 1 (29:01): I guess though, what I was curious about too is when you sit down, is there usually a definite plan of what kind of thing you're going to make and where it sits on that line? Which side of it is it going to be on? Speaker 2 (29:18): I always leave room for it to cross that line. I mean, yeah, I get an idea of what the piece should look like, but at the same time, just like when you're sketching, I sketch on the wheel. So when you're sketching and that idea can develop on the page, I'm watching the pot change all the time and picking up on certain lines that I love that mimic something else or that relate to something else in the outside world. And then I'll maybe change course pick up on that and emphasize that. And so the pot does change a lot as I'm working on it and deviates from the picture I had in my head at the beginning. Speaker 1 (30:03): So Speaker 2 (30:04): Yeah, it can definitely do that. But I don't work in a way that those artists who hit on a great piece all the time work in which they have this design in their head, they have a concept and they're driving toward that concept. And then once they've made that piece and they're somewhat happy with it, they make 20 more and slightly alter until it's become this new thing. I don't know whether it's the patience that it takes to do that or just the focus to stick with something for that long. There are marks I make that I've stuck with my whole career, but there's certain concepts that I just can't take for that long. And so that's why I feel like it alludes me a lot. Speaker 1 (30:54): Have you ever had something where a kind of accident has taken something from functional to non-functional and then thus turned it into sort of sculpture? Speaker 2 (31:05): Oh yeah. And you have to pay attention to that because I'm constantly trying to get the clay to move some organic fun way that just seems so natural. And a lot of times that comes from an accident that comes from a mistake early on, and if you spot it and then can find the balance to emphasize it, because if it's crazy and the whole pot's crazy, you lose that. It's crazy, right? You need something to compare it to. So there has to be control and sections of that. So if I could spot it early enough and think, oh, that was not as bad as I thought. This is actually really exciting. Now let's turn it into the star of the piece, Speaker 1 (31:44): Then Speaker 2 (31:44): I can make that work for sure. Awesome. Speaker 1 (31:46): Well, are you ready to go look at some art? Yes. Awesome. Speaker 2 (31:50): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (31:50): All right. Speaker 2 (32:02): We Speaker 1 (32:02): Are looking at contemporary. This is a little display of contemporary Japanese ceramics, and this is actually the second installation we did. There was another group of things in here, including there was actually a piece of fashion in here earlier, but then they traded that out and reinstalled these. So these have been out for a little while, but they're relatively new to me. I didn't want to look at any one particular thing. I thought we could just, I don't know, you pick something out, what stood out to you at first and then we'll just walk around and see what stands out to you. Well, Speaker 2 (32:39): The centerpiece stands out first just because you've got this hugely spread out almost muscle or oyster shell like piece. Speaker 1 (32:50): Yeah, it's called Shell 16 incubation, Speaker 2 (32:54): And it's got fantastic lines and texture, which move your eye around the piece. But the fact that they broke those seams where the slabs come together and let the intense blue color from the interior pop out at the edges of the lines, oh, it's actually, Speaker 1 (33:13): So on the other side I see it's poking through. I couldn't tell actually if I was looking at a hole there or the edge, but yeah, so I see it's actually like Speaker 2 (33:23): You see those corners, how they split and let you see the interior and that framing of the color and then where the texture can just come right off of the edge. It's pretty amazing and it automatically draws your eye in, makes you just sit there for a minute and really pay attention to what's going on with the piece. It's got that warm color tone to it, so it brings you to a spot you visited or whatever, or it's just a calming thing, but also kind of energetic. And I don't know, I went to that immediately because I've held those shells in my hand multiple times. I've interacted with that my entire life. But then to see it large scale and really magnetize, magnify all the lines so that you can see what that would look like on a big scale is pretty fun. Speaker 1 (34:17): Yeah, this one is so, I don't know, it's almost like the lines and the shapes can almost be a little disorienting too, as you look at it becomes very graphic in the way this big blue shape that I'm looking at now just kind of flattens out almost. And I don't know the way the lines are kind of pulling you into the center in this kind of optical illusion type way as well, the way the lines are kind of crossing on each other and then coming to these edges, it's like, yeah, it's really complicated. There's a lot of things happening in it. Speaker 2 (34:53): Well, and a lot of times with contemporary Japanese work, I find myself wanting to have this as something so big that I could climb in it or climb, you know what I mean? You can hike through that Speaker 1 (35:08): And Speaker 2 (35:08): A lot of the pieces that you find in this grouping are that way. You just want to be small enough that you can jump in there and spend the day hiking and exploring. And that's how much it relates to the natural world, and that's where they are truly masters at using the clay to expose that. Speaker 1 (35:33): Even the way the lines form on the inside too, those sort of little bubbly ridges that are formed. How did they make that, how the little bubbles kind of form in those ridges? Is that something they actually did, do you think? Speaker 2 (35:49): Yeah, that's actual texture in the clay. So they've Speaker 1 (35:52): Pressed Speaker 2 (35:53): This grit in the clay, and then the glaze will pull away from the little sand bits or what we call grog, and it'll create a little pocket. So you'll have chunks coming out of the clay, plus the glaze pulling away gives you that look, and then they put a lot of glaze in there that moves, so it pools in the bottom and literally turns to just this nice section of glass in the bottom of this. So it's highly reflective and looks just like you're looking into a pool. Speaker 1 (36:23): Yeah, there's a lot of great things going on with the relationship between those two surfaces. You were kind of talking at the beginning about those little pops of blue that happened on those edges there where the slabs come together. But just even that relationship between this flatter kind of dull gray that's matte against this so intense blue that is shiny. So it's both a color contrast and a texture contrast, and that gives it so much more depth, I think, because of those things happening here. Speaker 2 (36:58): You got it. And when you see painters playing with that push and pull and messing with your ability to see what's behind the painting, what's in front of the painting, what's on the surface, they get to do this in an extreme way with the three D form. And it also makes you think, we see architecture mimicking nature all the time where staircases look like the spiral of a shell and things like that. Well, when you use these lines to really see what a grand form this is, even though in the natural world this would be tiny, it really kind of opens your eyes to what you might find just walking around. Speaker 1 (37:39): The only thing that really bums me out about this piece, honestly, is that I want to be able to walk to the other side. Speaker 2 (37:43): Yeah. Speaker 1 (37:44): Because we, it isn't a case and we can't do that. It seems like the perfect piece that you would want to be able to see from both sides. So I'm really curious. I am assuming this part that we're seeing, we would see a smaller little bit of blue if we were on the other side, it would be a little more gray. Yeah. I'm sure this is probably the most interesting side, but I am curious to see how it feels to walk around it and how even when I get to this far this side, I mean it does feel really different when you get over here actually. Speaker 2 (38:17): Well, and they're all, A lot of the pieces in this case are what you would say is, I don't know, monumental pieces, right? Yeah. They have a presence that's so much bigger than their actual physical size. And so all of those I think are really fun to be able to walk around and compare to the size of a room. So yeah, the case is a little limiting, but you can definitely see that they have some impact Speaker 1 (38:42): Even from Speaker 2 (38:42): This one side. Speaker 1 (38:43): The other one that just I'm really fascinated by, and I haven't looked at it too much, is this one right here, right? It's right next to it called Flower sculpture Shingu, aka. And it's one of these things that's a little bit of a trick to me of like, whoa, that's all ceramic. Speaker 2 (39:03): Well, and Speaker 1 (39:04): It doesn't describe since you can't see it, that there's all these little thin, I don't dunno, what would you even call it, hair-like pieces coming out of it that just you don't see in ceramic because it would just be so fragile, I would assume. Speaker 2 (39:22): Well, and that is a big movement in ceramics where not only that, but also just adding other materials to it to make you question the clay pieces. So you see the pinched out edge that's so fragile and changes so much all the way along the outside that contains this Speaker 1 (39:42): Soft Speaker 2 (39:42): Looking material in the middle. Those edges, you kind of almost forget them when you look at something that's just clay colored and you're walking up to a clay sculpture because in your head that's already, that's a hard substance. It's fired and it's done. But when you add those other elements, it makes you question that. And you can get away with making clay look very soft even in its fired state. Speaker 1 (40:09): Yeah, no, this piece is so full of movement. And it's interesting just next to this one, even though it's called flower sculpture, it also really makes me think of sea life as well. They both have this really strong relationship to the sea, and this one is almost like one of those kind of weird mixes of plant or animal that you see in the ocean where you're like, I don't even know, what's it called? This? Is it a plant? Is it an animal? Speaker 2 (40:35): Exactly. Yeah. You've seen jellyfish and an enemies and squid and all that put together, and you get something like this where all of it looks like it could move. Speaker 1 (40:43): Yeah. It almost has these black tentacles on the back end that you can almost imagine it kind of shooting down as it kind of pushes itself across the ocean or something. Speaker 2 (40:55): Well, and clay is a wonderful material for that because it is meant to be approachable. So most art in your head, it's like, don't touch. Whereas clay, we've known as functional things, and so they're meant to be picked up and used. And so you already have that in the back of most people's head is that this is more approachable than other art. And so a lot of artists will play off of that and really bring the viewer in even closer than you would for a painting or drawing. Speaker 1 (41:27): Anything else pop out to you in this case? Speaker 2 (41:30): Yeah, so we talked earlier about making things mimic the natural world and bringing the beauty out that way. So one thing that I love about ceramics is that once you're done with the making process, you have to get to the firing process. Speaker 1 (41:46): And Speaker 2 (41:46): Playing with fire is all kinds of fun anyway, and with a lot of this work, you're working with wood ash, so it's a big wood kiln. And when you fire in a kiln like this, the wood that's being burnt in there creates fly ash, really small particles from the burnt wood, and that flies down the kiln, sticks to the pot, and then depending on how the pot is turned or sitting in the kiln, that fly ash will turn to glass. The kiln gets so hot, it turns to glass and then will get pulled by the draft across the pot. And so you can see on the surface of several of these pots, you can read the flame basically. Speaker 1 (42:26): So Speaker 2 (42:26): You can see where other pots were sitting in front of this one on the back left this slab piece that's wrapped around a cylinder, and you can see where they had little pieces of clay called wadding sitting on the surface that the flames zipped around. So those little highlights there were protected and the flame zipped around them and carried the ash, which are the darker halos around that. And so you can get an idea of, it gives you an idea of the extreme heat and conditions that these things were sitting in, almost like they were born from a volcano or something. Speaker 2 (43:00): And that tradition, I mean, the Japanese are so good with this firing technique, and some people can spend their entire lives just focusing on how one kiln operates. And when they master that kiln, they can direct every bead of ash and get those layers of color depending on the different types of wood they're firing with instead of using glaze, which floors me. And so to see things that look like a master of glaze would've put together, and knowing that they're just doing that using the different types of wood, the heat, how they hold temperatures at certain points in the firing and how it's cooled down, that blows my mind a little bit. Speaker 1 (43:40): Yeah, that kind of also reminds me of this six piece on the end that's called wind. I don't know. It seems to have is some of this coloration that's happening there in that same kind of process you're talking about where we have these highlights and these darker areas. Speaker 2 (43:56): Absolutely. You think of that wood ash zipping down the kiln and wherever there's a surface cutting out, Speaker 1 (44:01): It Speaker 2 (44:02): Blocks the ash, whereas it pulls around other sections that are slightly more exposed. And so with that, you're getting the process of those drainage caverns that lead into the Grand Canyon or those crazy wind swept locations where you think you see what happened over millions of years and you can't believe it. And this potter has done that in a matter of several hours. Right. Speaker 1 (44:28): That's what I always thought this is. So when you were describing that, it made me appreciate this piece on a whole new level because I was like, oh, that's so cool because you're describing the way these kind of natural elements are going to help color this piece in this very natural way. And then they're using that to create this almost mimicry of those wind eroded forms you see in nature. And it has such a great relationship to that, that it's such a smart way to work. And it does, again, it gives it that monumental feel you were talking about, you're bringing up the Grand Canyon and the American West is what it makes me think of immediately too. Speaker 2 (45:10): Well, and that's fun that they are doing this technique called faceting, which is where they're cutting that surface of the clay to make it mimic what they might see right around their shop, whether it's the sheer side of a cliff or a rock formation. And yet you can relate to that here just because of the things you've experienced in the Midwest or right down at Red River Gorge or something like that. That's a universal thing that everyone can pick up on. And then you look at the color of this central piece, and it even makes more sense because this is Speaker 1 (45:45): A horse we're looking at right now, Speaker 2 (45:47): And we stand on Red Clay almost anywhere we dig in this area. There's that earthenware, like a lower temp, reddish orange clay, and the rock that you see in a lot of locations here has that same glow to it. And so even though that was made with a different part of the world in mind, it directly relates to what we see when we go hiking right around in this area. Speaker 1 (46:13): Wow. Yeah, I love that piece too. Just its name horse is so it makes this piece a little more playful than I maybe would've if you just saw it. I mean, you might come up with that relationship to an animal, but the idea of this big fat Speaker 2 (46:32): Legs Speaker 1 (46:33): Almost, it's really funny to me now. It's like it's such a cool abstraction of a horse, even this little tiny edge Speaker 2 (46:41): That Speaker 1 (46:41): Just becomes like a butt. Speaker 2 (46:42): Oh, exactly. Well, and before you see the title, that doorway seems so striking. Just like you're at Petra or something and this building is carved into the side of a mountain, you can see that amazing doorway right there. And imagine yourself walking through that and seeing how big the cliff walls are beside you. And the same thing with that notch. It's just enough to say, a person did this right, and then you get the name and everything has a different meaning all of a sudden. It's so fun. Speaker 1 (47:17): Yeah, it does change it. It's funny because maybe I had already read this name. So when you're talking about these kind of monumental pieces, I didn't think about it in that way, but now that you bring Petra and stuff like, oh yeah, this would feel almost like stone hinge or something to this shape, but then to have it become animal is sort of so funny. I was looking when we were down on the other end here, this vase, I was thinking we were talking about pieces that probably someone might look at and go, well, I could Speaker 2 (47:48): Do that. Speaker 1 (47:49): And this is one that I feel like probably a lot of visitors might look at this and say, well, I could do that. Speaker 2 (47:56): And there are a few things that you want to know about. Number three here, just titled Vase is that wars have been fought over that glaze. So in Asian culture, these glazes that were being developed, and then that would be on every vase and bowl in certain dynasty, these glazes are so important, and it shows technological advancement in a culture. And so when you have a beautiful elegant glaze that can be fired to a very high temperature and get very hard so that the durability is there and it's going to endure for years and years and years, and it's sitting on this rough porcelain form that porcelain on the other side, there is this delicate, almost machine made looking pot, right? Speaker 1 (48:52): Yeah. Speaker 2 (48:53): And that's what porcelain has almost always been used for is these beautiful bone China plates. But here they're showing that porcelain is beautiful when you tear it and fold it and pull at it. It is just like the rock formations that some of these other stoneware pieces are going towards. So they're making a comment on that and also bringing the history of ceramics in this region all together in a form like this that shows not just the history of that culture and that glaze, but also their mastery of that glaze and their understanding of where porcelain comes from. Speaker 1 (49:35): Is there any other last pieces you want? Anything else you wanted talk about? Speaker 2 (49:39): Well, when you get down to this one, number 11, that is so pristine, this Speaker 1 (49:44): Is just called a vessel. Speaker 2 (49:46): Yeah. And perfect. It's one of those things where even the one beside it to the left, number nine, you see a potter or a sculptor who has spent their life with one material or one glaze and has gotten so good at it that you can't find a flaw. It's pretty amazing to see. And it's just one of those things where you're either going to let things flow and you're going to enjoy the process, or you're going to do something that just most of the world can't do. And those guys are in that realm. Speaker 1 (50:25): Yeah. I'm just reading. I had not paid attention to this vessel, and I was just reading the label and it says how it was thrown on a wheel and then carved after that. And it's like, if you told me this was a cast piece, I would believe it. Right. Speaker 2 (50:43): It looks Speaker 1 (50:44): So perfect that it doesn't feel like any sort of hands were involved in it. Speaker 2 (50:49): Well, and I don't know whether a lot of the people who come to the museum and look at the ceramic work know a huge amount about the working of the material, but clay has what we call a memory. And so if I roll out a slab or I throw a pot and at some point in the process I accidentally bend it, even though I fix it, when I put it back in the kiln to fire, it wants to return to that flexed point where I bent it. It has a memory. So if you're making tiles and you pull the tile, the slab off of the table, then when it dries, it will bend to try and return to that stretched movement. And so the idea that he has taken this, thrown it on the wheel, carved the form, and there is no line that is not perfectly symmetrical. There's no warping in the firing process. There's not a stain. How many times do you get something on your finger that you don't realize and touch the clay? And this is a surface that anything will stain and stain deep to where you can't sand it out sometimes. Speaker 2 (51:59): So is just everything about that process was perfect. And someone who has spent their entire life working with one material and knows everything about it. Speaker 1 (52:09): Yeah, it's really otherworldly. It really does look like something that, again, if you would said was like three D printed or something, I would be like, Speaker 2 (52:17): Oh yeah, yeah, that tracks. It does Speaker 1 (52:21): Not look like the material. It's this total beautiful subversion of the material almost. Speaker 2 (52:29): Well, and that's hard to find these days actually, someone who the Japanese, some might devote their entire life to a shino glaze and doing everything that one glaze can do. Whereas now, because all the commercial companies, you got 7,000 glazes to choose from. So you never really zone in on just one or two that you're going to devote your life to. And that's what a lot of these artists did. And you can see it and you can't see it in many other places in the world. Speaker 1 (52:59): While we're kind of over on this edge, I was just looking down at this dish here. I'm probably going to spoil this name, Negi dish, dizziness and, wait, hold on. Let me say that again. Speaker 2 (53:17): Oh, I got it right. I did it. Speaker 1 (53:22): Look, it was spelled out and I got it right. Negi dish dizziness. We were talking about that point. When a plate has crossed into fine art, most of these pieces feel like they're pretty firmly in the fine art realm. This one is interesting because of its shape. It still holds onto that function of a dish or a plate, but then it definitely feels like it's crossed that line. Speaker 2 (53:54): Well, in its simplest form, this technique, you could take two different colored clays and squish them together and then put them on the potter's wheel and pull. And you would expect that maybe the darker clay would swirl through the lighter clay and the spinning of the wheel. But what if you took several different coloring materials, whether mason stains or oxides, and wedged them into porcelain so that your clay became black and soft gray and dark gray and light white, and then you intricately cut slabs and blocks and stack them back together in a way that when you create a piece, it makes an intricate pattern. I mean, I can't even imagine the time it takes to do that and to do it with that perfection, but that's what's happening there. Speaker 1 (54:44): So yeah, that's crazy. So I'm looking at the layers. And so if you look at, just pick a stripe and you can kind of see where it's a little bit, the light to dark is softer and stuff. You can tell that's where the clay was sort of butted up against each other and then kind of cut into slices and then stacked so that those colors are kind of alternating, is that what's happening? Speaker 2 (55:09): And you would have to redo these geometric forms over and over and over again in this cube of clay until when you slice through it, it became that pattern. And how much practice does it take to do that? I would guess 20 years of trying that thing, Speaker 1 (55:30): Until Speaker 2 (55:30): You Speaker 1 (55:30): Get it, really, it has this weird effect that it feels like it's reflective. And I don't think it is. I think it is just simply the strangeness of the colors kind of gradating into each other that create that illusion of some sort of reflection happening. It feels like, oh yeah, it's shiny and stuff, but I don't think it is. Speaker 2 (55:57): No, it's not. It's amazing. And using that subtle curve to allow that to happen is really cool. Speaker 1 (56:05): Alright, well thank you so much for coming out and looking at some pottery with me, Ben. Speaker 2 (56:10): No problem. This was always an entertaining place to be. Speaker 1 (56:24): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view. Right now are Anna England kinship and William Kentridge more sweetly play the dance. Join us on Sunday, February 25th for gallery experience. Walk a Mile in the museum. In honor of Heart Health Month, we will take a one mile tour of the Cincinnati Art Museum, enjoy artwork, admire architecture, and tell stories all while adding to a healthy lifestyle. This program is totally free. For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. And while you're there, check out some images of the work we discussed today. Go to events and programs and then scroll down to Art Palace podcast. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and even join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is of Onto Music How By Balou. And as always, please rate and review us on iTunes. If I'm starting to sound desperate for people to like me, it's only because it's true. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.