Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:03): A large number of people. What they want to ask somebody that works in a job like this that implicitly says, photography is art, is why is photography art. Speaker 1 (00:25): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person Speaker 2 (00:35): Is Speaker 1 (00:35): Nathaniel m Stein, associate curator of photography. So I've already preemptively turned your mic as far up as it will go. I was listening as we were in here meeting the other day. I was already planning recording you. I'm listening to you and going like, okay, so I'm going to need to turn this mic up as much as I can. Speaker 2 (01:07): I'm a well-known soft talker. Speaker 1 (01:11): This is going to be our A S M R episode. Awesome. You know about that. The people have watch YouTube videos of people crinkling, cellophane and stuff Speaker 2 (01:22): And speaking like this. Yes. Folding towels. Speaker 1 (01:25): Yeah, exactly. Actually, if we did that, we'd probably, it'd be, I should label it as such and then we'll get, Speaker 2 (01:33): There would be so many more hits. I Speaker 1 (01:35): Know it would be Speaker 2 (01:36): A major YouTube sensation. Speaker 1 (01:39): I know it'd be our biggest hit so far. I mean, it's obvious what people really want, which is ghost stories. Speaker 2 (01:48): I could do that in a soft spoken voice. Speaker 1 (01:51): Ghost Speaker 2 (01:52): Stories in a soft spoken voice. Good Speaker 1 (01:53): Work. All of our ghost episodes have been immediately way more successful than all the rest. And then people continue to listen to them way past Halloween and it's just always, every month I look and I go, oh, the ghost ones get tons of hits. Speaker 2 (02:09): Well, Russell, we should talk about spirit photographs. Oh, it's Speaker 1 (02:12): A Speaker 2 (02:12): Major 19th century genre. Speaker 1 (02:15): That's true. See, we figured out. Okay, and then I can hashtag it like ghost photos and stuff, and then Speaker 2 (02:20): Real true ghost photos, ectoplasm, the whole nine yards. Speaker 1 (02:23): Yeah, I love those where there's cheesecloth coming out of people's nose and stuff and I love those pictures. Those are so great. So I was curious how, I mean, have you always been into photography or where did that start? Where did you become interested in this world? Speaker 2 (02:43): No, I didn't actually know when I started studying art history, which I studied, started studying art history as an undergrad. Actually it was my first semester at college kind of on a whim Speaker 1 (02:55): Since Speaker 2 (02:55): I had never had art history before. I registered for art History 1 0 1, which was a bold move because it met at nine o'clock in the morning. So right there, it was a self-selecting crowd, but I had almost no experience. My family was a science family, so I went to museums when I was growing up, but they were science museums and I immediately loved it. I found it completely, I was there bright and early nine o'clock, Tuesdays and Thursdays sections and the whole nine yards. It'd Speaker 1 (03:26): Be great if the class didn't start till 11. No, Speaker 2 (03:30): I was there. My whole life Speaker 1 (03:30): Story would be Speaker 2 (03:31): Different. There would be way more art historians also. They taught those classes later in the day. Speaker 1 (03:37): Yeah. Speaker 2 (03:38): Anyway, so I got really interested, well, I was interested in a lot of things, but I got especially interested in architecture. So I actually started out as an architectural historian and I was interested in modern European architecture, but also the medieval period in Europe. And so I did a lot of work as an undergrad on medieval cathedrals. I actually went to France one summer and did an archeological dig on a former monastic site, like a monastery Speaker 1 (04:06): Outside Speaker 2 (04:06): Of Paris. And it was really through the process of having the opportunity to go to some of the places, some of the buildings and some of the sites that I've been studying that I then started to realize, although buildings are fantastic, I still love buildings. When I was sitting in that classroom in the dark and at nine o'clock in the morning listening to my professors speak in this incredibly erudite way about these buildings and just sort of being transported by the visual aspect of that, it was the photographs that I was looking at projected in the lecture hall that I was really responding to. And I came to understand that a photograph is not the same thing as the building is a complete transformation of the building into a two dimensional image, which is what I was responding to. And so that was really sort of my first, I only realized this later of course, but that was maybe my first moment when I really understood how different photographs are from the real world, that they're not just exactly equal to what you see when you open your eyes or as you move through the world and how compelling I found them, Speaker 1 (05:17): Especially certain pieces, sculptural works. We always have to credit the photographer of the sculpture Speaker 2 (05:25): It, it's a field how to photograph things in the way that is true to what the object is or what the site is. Because obviously that kind of using the camera to document in that way, you are trying Speaker 1 (05:36): To Speaker 2 (05:37): Convey information about what you're photographing. But I sort of challenge you to find any architectural photographer or a photographer of artworks Speaker 1 (05:46): That Speaker 2 (05:46): Doesn't think a lot about the image that they're making Speaker 1 (05:50): Themselves Speaker 2 (05:52): And what its characteristics Speaker 1 (05:53): Are. Yeah, like you're saying, it is, even when we're looking at a photograph of a painting, it is not the painting. Speaker 2 (06:01): No. Speaker 1 (06:04): It's like there are always these invisible choices. I think that's one where it's extra invisible because we're still looking at this two dimensional thing, but so much is done to try to make sure we see the object as it best is. And it's never going to be exactly the same thing. Speaker 2 (06:23): No, it's not. And well for many reasons, but because you're not standing in front of the object and the object has its own presence, but also, right, because paintings are two dimensional, but also they're kind of not because the, that's Speaker 1 (06:32): True strokes and Speaker 2 (06:33): All those wonderful aspects of painting, but it's really fascinating. Speaker 1 (06:38): But even the way a photo captures a certain kind of range of light is going to vary from photograph to photograph and the way the photographer has chosen to capture this object that changes all of those things. Speaker 2 (06:56): Russell, in the first five minutes of this conversation, we've now arrived at the fundamental question that I am asked If you could submit an anonymous question. I feel like a large number of people, because I am asked this question often Speaker 1 (07:10): A Speaker 2 (07:10): Large number of people, what they want to ask somebody that works in a job like this that implicitly says, photography is art, is why is photography art? Because we can all do it and we all have cameras and we all make pictures all the time. Why are these pictures? Why should we consider photographs art? So I mean, what you just started talking about is where you start. The answer to that question is that there is nothing about a photograph that doesn't result from a choice in every single one of those choices. I know we all have phones, many of us have phones that we could take out of our pockets and make a picture at any time. And it makes it feel like it's a completely automatic process where there aren't a lot of decisions and it's all about a machine Speaker 1 (07:51): Just Speaker 2 (07:51): Recording an image of the world. But the machines we have in our pockets are designed to make it feel that way. All of this decisions are sort of programmed in, but actually there is nothing, even those machines, somebody made the decision, some programmer made the decision, how should a photograph look? And now I'm going to write the code that makes it look like that a photograph. There's nothing automatic about it. It's decisions of the product of decisions from beginning to end. Speaker 1 (08:21): Right. Well, and the biggest decision, I mean, and if we're talking about just a snapshot like this sort of camera photograph that most people make, taking it away from documenting art objects in buildings is just, and I guess going to buildings and things still, but it always does interest me to look at the number one choice that people are always making with a photograph is what is and isn't in the photograph, Speaker 2 (08:47): Right. The frame. Speaker 1 (08:52): Why does this make the cut and why does this not make the cut? And that's usually says a lot about the person's intent really quickly. That's something I always notice. And I do find that actually when you're looking at people's photographs, you're just scrolling through people's Instagram feeds. It's very fun for me to read the choices they make and what that says about them. Speaker 2 (09:17): Yeah. I'm actually thinking about, so we're doing collection rotations. We're going to do a whole series of collection rotations that kind of let us get wonderful things out from storage and show people things that they haven't seen for a while or maybe ever. And so every one of these is, it needs to have some kind of idea that holds it together other than just these are great things that we have in our storage, although that's also a Speaker 1 (09:38): Perfectly legitimate Speaker 2 (09:39): Thing to do. Meat stuff. Yeah, totally. I'm thinking about one that's actually about the frame frame of the photograph and thinking about bringing out a group of pictures that actually invite you to think about that, Speaker 1 (09:52): How Speaker 2 (09:52): Photographers use the edge of the picture and what's in it and what's outside it and how it falls over the world. That invites you to brings together a group of pictures that make that come to the forefront Speaker 1 (10:07): More that Speaker 2 (10:07): It's a lot of pictures. Part of what they do is that they don't ask you to think about that. They feel very natural a lot of times in the way that they're framed. So you don't think, oh, what's over there that I can't see? Or Why is the edge of that frame falling in the middle of that tree or whatever. But sometimes people use the frame in this very active way that's becomes part of the picture. Speaker 1 (10:30): I mean, I guess obviously if you are in your career, in your job title right now, you have to believe that photographs are art. But was there ever a time when you didn't or didn't think of them that way? Or was that moment when you saw you finally realized that what you were attracted to was the photograph? Was that kind of one of those moments that pushed it into that? Speaker 2 (10:52): I mean, I don't remember as a child when I had this, I don't remember my Speaker 1 (10:56): Specific Speaker 2 (10:56): Really, you didn't do that. Speaker 1 (10:57): Just sit in your room as a child and Speaker 2 (10:59): Debate what I was kind of like That as a child does sound something that I would've done as a child, but I don't specifically remember that that afternoon of navel gazing. But it's funny that you say that as a curator of photography, that I must necessarily believe that Speaker 2 (11:15): Photographies are, because obviously there is a great deal of photography that is clearly to me, art, it's produced with that intent or it is fulfilling that intent after the fact in some way. But I am not actually, I think it might be more sort of for the benefit of my audience that I would have to say photography is definitely always art because there are many times when photography is not art and it's a terrific medium in that way and that it doesn't always have to make that claim about itself. Not all photography is made to be art and not all photography is made in an artful way. Sometimes photography is made in a not artful way and it's art, so it's not that clear. And I think that's one of the great things about, I don't really feel the necessity to make it that clear because one of the great things about photography is that it is very hard to define. It's very hard to put in an envelope that way. It's a lot of things. So one thing that when I get to talking about this whole subject is sometimes it just strikes me that if you had one of my colleagues, like a painting curator in this room, someone that deals with painting as their subject area, you're not going to ask them, well, what about house painting? Speaker 2 (12:37): Is that art? No, obviously it's not thought of as something that's part of their purview, but that doesn't cause us to question whether fine art painting is art. But with photography, people somehow don't have that same kind of perspective on it because there are many photographs that are made that are not intended to be art or made in an artful way. Then we are sort of not sure of the rest of it, which I think is kind of interesting. Speaker 1 (13:07): Well, and even we, I mean maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like we've even collected things that were not made in that sort of artful way, but that have significance and we feel like, well, these are important images and they're culturally, historically significant, so we want them Speaker 2 (13:25): Totally. Speaker 1 (13:25): But again, it's that thing. This was not made with the intention of being displayed in a gallery or museum or any of those things. Speaker 2 (13:33): And I've recently bought some of that. And that's one of the reasons again, why I love photography collections, because we don't put ourselves in that quite those same kind of box. There are many things that are collected in art museum collections, photographs that were made for scientific purposes or photographs that were made for clearly documentary purposes that either have later come to have some kind of important role to artists or in art or they never have. And we are curious about the way those look kind of has this overlap with a look that we think about as an artistic look or in some cases it's just really about the history of the medium Speaker 1 (14:20): That Speaker 2 (14:21): As a photo collection, I feel like our collection needs to speak to the history of the medium, which is more than the history of art photography. Speaker 1 (14:31): There are Speaker 2 (14:31): Other things in there too. So it's a question that is often, it's something you think about a lot when you're thinking about what you want in your collection, what you should acquire, where everyone has limited resources in terms of what you can have and what you can store. So it's a question that you end up thinking about quite a bit. Speaker 1 (14:52): Yeah. Well, I think this whole debate and the kind of idea about photography and art is what I've ended up talking about several times on here is just this idea of work ethic too, Speaker 2 (15:06): That Speaker 1 (15:07): I think that's one of those hurdles that people have a hard time getting over is the idea that in a lot of people's minds, I think they want to be able to see the work somebody has done. Speaker 2 (15:19): And Speaker 1 (15:19): If there's anything where that's a little less visible or maybe there isn't, to me, it's not necessarily as important. When I look at something that I'm not really worried about, well, it's not this many hours in equals art kind of thing. Speaker 2 (15:36): Some kind of understanding of labor, the Speaker 1 (15:38): Labor Speaker 2 (15:39): That goes into the object, and also the manual skill, technical skill, which I think is a different, that actually, I mean, there's different schools of thought about that within the photography world also. I mean, there are people who place tons of emphasis on really, really fine dark room work, which is absolutely a manual skill. How you manipulate, let's just say a gel and silver print in a dark room. You can do that in a pretty shoddy way and still get a gel and silver print. Or you can do that in a completely amazing masterful way and get this object that has these kinds of beauty that will just stop you in your tracks if you're paying attention. But I mean, again, it's just look at contemporary art in general. I mean, there's things that take a lot of effort to make, and there's things that are really about an idea. And I think not all people, but many people are willing to count both as art. Speaker 1 (16:39): Yeah. It's also just making me think about where photography has gone and just the advances in technology and things. It seems like so much of also the way we read images, and it sounds like you're kind of coming from this angle already is just about the idea of a photograph being authentic Speaker 2 (17:03): And Speaker 1 (17:04): That idea and how, but then from the start, it isn't like you're even kind of saying about the idea of the photograph is not the thing, but then to add on in the ways computers have affected that idea of authenticity too, is it seems like we're now having to look at photographs in a very different way too, where the way even just traditional dark room manipulation has gone even farther. And we don't necessarily trust photographs in the same way. I think we used to. Speaker 2 (17:40): Yeah. I dunno. I'm not sure about that. I think we still trust them in this sort of foolish way that we always have. And it was just as foolish before as it is now. Right. Speaker 1 (17:52): Yeah. Speaker 2 (17:53): If you look at the history of the ways that photographs actually can be manipulated and have been manipulated since the very beginning of photography, I mean, the idea that it's a true thing has always been more a matter of faith than fact. So yeah, I don't know. Well, Speaker 1 (18:10): You were mentioning before earlier about ectoplasm and spirit photographs. Speaker 2 (18:16): Yeah, that's a real ectoplasm. Speaker 1 (18:17): It's a photograph. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That's it. You're just a true believer in that. Of Speaker 2 (18:24): Course. Speaker 1 (18:24): Yeah. Speaker 2 (18:26): That's a photograph of it. I dunno what more evidence you need. Speaker 1 (18:33): There it is. I can see through that person. Look at that. That must be a ghost. Speaker 2 (18:40): But the other thing that what you just said made me think about is that the photograph, it isn't the thing in most cases except for that. There's a lot of interesting work being done, I'll say now, but I don't think it's isolated now. It's been going on for a while. That actually does, it sort of confuses that idea that the photograph is not the thing because photographs are a thing. If you have a photographic print, it's a piece of paper with some chemicals on it, which is a thing. It is its own thing. And then there's artists that explore that thing Speaker 1 (19:17): In Speaker 2 (19:17): This really amazing way. What are the qualities of this piece of paper with color on it or with black and white areas on it? Speaker 1 (19:27): Who's somebody you're thinking of when you're talking about that Speaker 2 (19:30): Somebody, there's a lot of artists working like that right now. I've worked with, I done a project about Wolfgang Tillman some years ago, and so he always comes to mind, and I think he's really extremely intelligent about the way that he engages with that sort of set of problems. But that it goes from there to a whole bunch of, I would say that's not younger, is not really, it's not really an issue of age, but let's just say people that are more in the earlier stages of their career. I just in Cleveland this past week, looking at work by an artist called Jerry Birchfield, who I thought was fantastic. And he's exploring some of those same issues of where does photography sort of conjoin with objectness, Speaker 1 (20:20): The Speaker 2 (20:20): Fact that the photograph is an object that has this special and weird relationship to the real world. So from there to Wolfgang Hillmans and a whole range of people in between are working. I mean, there's galleries that kind of even specialize in showing work by artists that are working in that space. Speaker 1 (20:39): Yeah. Well, I think that's just, again, thinking of our relationship to photographs on a more personal level, maybe a thing that we're also losing a little bit is that idea of personal photographs as objects too. I don't know. I do sort of think about being at my grandmother's house and having, there's a big box full of just messy photos right Speaker 2 (21:02): Next to the tint of buttons. Right, Speaker 1 (21:04): Exactly. So there's things that you would pick up and hold and have a real presence and a particular scale to them as well. Maybe now I don't even think about photos in that way in my personal life. Speaker 2 (21:19): So you're ruining all my exhibition ideas. So this is also, it is a big sort of topic. What is a relationship between this sort of personal relationship between a photograph and a human being? So on one side of that set of ideas, there's the notion that we don't handle photograph, we don't have photographic prints, and then we don't do albums that you would page through. You don't really usually have pictures in your wallet anymore if you have a wallet. So yes, there's this difference. There's this lack of physical interaction, but it's a lot of different ways you can talk about that. When you pull out your phone and look at pictures on your phone, it's a warm object that you're holding your hand that you're manipulating with your finger. It sort of lives next to your body all day. And it has in there digitally or not digitally, your photographs, that is a physical relationship. It's just a different one in its character than it is to hold a piece of paper. Speaker 1 (22:25): But Speaker 2 (22:25): It's a new kind of physical relationship that we have with photographs and weirdly, so when you go all the way back to the beginning of the history of photography, you have daguo types, which are pictures on a piece of metal which people would hold and cherish and sometimes have next to their bodies. And now we have these other pieces of metal Speaker 1 (22:48): That Speaker 2 (22:49): We have our pictures in and hold and keep next to our bodies. So there's this weird, it's totally different yet we haven't really gotten that far from the beginning. Speaker 1 (22:57): I wonder too, if even that way, I hadn't really thought about this until this very moment, but I feel like before we all just sort of went to looking at our personal photographs on our phone as that's the primary way you look at them. Even in the digital camera beginnings, I feel like everyone would still make, they were much more common to make prints, Speaker 2 (23:22): Making prints. Speaker 1 (23:23): And I wonder if that also has something to do with the fact that the display on those cameras was just a little too small. I mean, also you're saying the connection with the object, it's not quite as practical, but a phone is usually actually about the same size. We would have a personal print just a little smaller maybe. So it's kind of like five inch Speaker 2 (23:47): Size, Speaker 1 (23:47): Or you have these bigger phones that are a slightly larger, so it makes sense actually too that the scale is about, Speaker 2 (23:53): And I think mean by no means an expert in this, but I think that's why people at Apple are geniuses Speaker 1 (24:02): Because Speaker 2 (24:02): They've designed this object that it is about your personal interaction with technology and that it feels like this incredibly connected Speaker 1 (24:12): Personal Speaker 2 (24:12): Thing. I'm not making an Apple commercial, Speaker 1 (24:16): But if they want us send us free things like 9 53 and Park Avenue. Yes, Speaker 2 (24:23): Please. Speaker 1 (24:25): The Speaker 2 (24:25): Mail room is accepting. Speaker 1 (24:26): Yes, exactly. Well, you had some things you wanted to look at today, and I realized that whenever we do these curator episodes, they're actually these exact opposite of all my other episodes where I never tell anyone what they're about to go look at. I just spring it on them and make them react to it. Oh, okay. So the curator ones are, I'm going to spring it on you. Yeah, you get to decide what I'm going to look at and I have to be the person who's wandering blindly into it. Speaker 2 (24:58): Okay. Well that seems strangely appropriate for a museum program. Speaker 1 (25:01): Yeah. Alright, let's go. Okay. You've got a bunch of stuff here. Is there any sort of unifying, Speaker 2 (25:17): Well, so we're newly arrived at a job and thinking about acquiring things. And it's like you're never going to be able to accomplish everything that you want to accomplish period Speaker 1 (25:30): Entire Speaker 2 (25:30): Time that you work here. But especially you can't front load it all into the first five to six months that you're here. But I definitely have given some thought to what do you want your first actions or what have you to say. And I think I have a history as a 19th century person, and I think it is important for photographic collections like ours at an encyclopedic museum to pay attention to history as well as to what's happening now in photography because the two are actually very intimately related to each other. So I've bought from the very beginning of photography to something that was made last year in the first couple of months that I've been here. And so the things that I pulled out are from that early group of stuff. So actually the way I guess I would put this together, why I purchased these particular things. I mean, part of it has to do with areas where we could get stronger as a collection, but also it's about, I think it's a group of objects that of speak to dreams that people had for photography at the very, very beginning of the medium, which are in most cases still with us Speaker 1 (26:51): As Speaker 2 (26:52): Sort of hopes and dreams that we have for photography. But I wanted to get a number of distinguished things that talked to how that looked at the beginning. So there's two deger types here. This one was made in 1843 or 1844 in Egypt, and this is one of the earliest surviving photographs of Egypt, Speaker 1 (27:19): Which Speaker 2 (27:19): Is now here in Cincinnati, which I'm very pleased about. It's also, we're pretty sure now the earliest photograph in our collection. Speaker 1 (27:27): Oh, wow. Speaker 2 (27:28): So this is sort of a new high point for us to add to any other high points that we have said. Speaker 1 (27:34): 18 40, 43, 43. Wow. Yeah, that is crazy. Speaker 2 (27:41): So Speaker 1 (27:42): Do you know this is a temple? Speaker 2 (27:44): It's a picture of carac. Speaker 1 (27:46): Okay. Maybe describe a dero type for those who don't know what that means. Speaker 2 (27:53): So it's a photograph on a piece of metal. So the image is actually on the surface of a very highly polished piece of metal. It's a silver plated piece of copper in most cases. So if you look at it sort of straight on, it behaves almost like a mirror. Speaker 1 (28:10): So Speaker 2 (28:10): You see yourself looking into a piece of metal, but if you are able to tilt it a little bit and get some 45 degree kind of raking light and conditions are right. This magically precise, amazingly detailed image is carried on that piece of metal. I'm picking it up. So it's part of the perks of my job. It is heavy. Speaker 2 (28:38): So the metal is, this particular kind of tegu type is encased between two pieces of glass. There's a sheet of glass on the front and a sheet on the back. And there you can see the copper plate. So the front of it is silver plated in the back of it. So it's heavy and it has this great sense of tactility as an object. And even when they weren't, this is sort of an unusual way to, this one is just a piece of metal, but between two pieces of glass and it's got tape around the edges. That's kind of an unusual way to present them. So we have another one here that's more usually the way that you would see the, which is inside this leather case that opens up like a clamshell. It has these wonderful sometimes velvet. This one is silk pads inside the case that really make it feel precious and wonderful. This is also an early gear type from the 1850s. This is the shopfront in New Jersey. And this is a special thing for us because although you wouldn't gather that from these particular objects, but it's kind of for a DAA type to be outside and unposed, you tend to see portraits, Speaker 2 (29:48): Portrait images of people who are sitting in a very kind of stayed way inside a portrait studio lit carefully. Speaker 1 (29:55): They Speaker 2 (29:55): Sort of look like they're dead a lot of times Speaker 1 (29:56): Because Speaker 2 (29:57): Of the length of time it takes to make the image and because it's a very sort of formal process. But deger type photographers also took their cameras out into the world. And so with a picture like this where you just see this sort of group of local people assembled on this porch of a general store in New Jersey in the early 1850s with some horses and a bunch of kids and some signage, which you can actually read if you get up there close enough, it's talking about what's on sale at the store. You get the sense of just everyday life, which is very unusual to see in a type Speaker 1 (30:36): Since it's outside and it's sunny. Were they able to keep the shutter open for really just a pretty short period of time? How long would that probably be do you think? Speaker 2 (30:46): By the 1850s? It's not a shutter, actually. It's hard to think of photography Speaker 1 (30:51): Without a shutter. Without a shutter. Yeah. Speaker 2 (30:52): It's just taking the lens cap off. So by the 1850s with sort of where chemistry was at that time in bright light, it probably wasn't a very long exposure. It could have been a matter of seconds. And you can kind of see that because the horse shuffled a little bit. Speaker 1 (31:06): Yeah, that's why I was noticing a little bit of blur on the horse, but it's not for a horse. It's Speaker 2 (31:13): Good for a Speaker 1 (31:13): Horse. Pretty good job horse. Yeah. Speaker 2 (31:17): Anyway, so these two really special, wonderful things, and this one in particular, I mean we're taught the Egypt one in particular. We're talking about somebody who learned photography potentially from Deger, the inventor of photography Speaker 1 (31:29): At Speaker 2 (31:29): The very, very beginning of photography period. And within two or three years was on this voyage to Egypt with all of his gear and his metal plates and his glass sheets and all these things, which was a pretty difficult trip to make at the Speaker 1 (31:47): Time, Speaker 2 (31:48): Whether you're hauling a ton of camera equipment or not, and comes back with an image like this. And like I said, there were two people that went a tiny bit earlier than this guy, but none of those pictures survived. So the ones that he made in Egypt are the earliest pictures, the earliest photographs that we have of Egypt, and now we have one in Cincinnati. So it's pretty exciting. Speaker 1 (32:07): That is very exciting. Speaker 2 (32:09): When I think also about pictures, this, this is kind of telegraphing some other things that I recently bought, but I think you could put this in the gallery next to a picture of the moon when people first went to the moon and took photographs. And there is this wonderful relationship between these people at the intrepid edge of what is possible with a camera. They're out there with a camera. And I may do that. Speaker 1 (32:37): Well, and it definitely also seems to, on that line that we were talking about a little bit of intentional art or is it just about documenting this thing? I mean, what do you think the artist intended? Were they thinking of it in that way or is it more about just like, I need to document this and this has never been done before? Right. Speaker 2 (32:55): Well, I mean it's both. And that's the cool thing about photographs like this. So what I said about the dream at the beginning of photography, when photography was actually announced in 1839, people got up in front of a body of statesmen and scientists in France and talked about, we have this technology and sort of said a whole bunch of things about what a person might do with it, why it is a great thing, which if you think about it, it's not necessarily obvious We have this now what everything do it. So one of the things that they talked about at that time is we could send cameras out to places like Egypt where scientists and scholars are trying to study history through the remains of what is there. Speaker 1 (33:41): And Speaker 2 (33:41): We could either send people out to make very careful drawings for decades and get a small fraction of the information of what is there. Or we could send someone a camera and bring back that information in highly focused detail at a much more rapid pace. And so that is in part what this gentleman is doing in Egypt. So yes, there is that, but this is always, you scratch the surface in the 19th century of a photographer who's doing it sort of documentation imagery like this. He's also a painter and he had been painting antiquities and sites in Egypt and other places before he was photographing them. So you look at this picture, you look at this sort of deep cast shadows that sort of work around the foreground in a way that's very similar to the way a reproductive print would work. There is very clearly an artistic intelligence. It's not like he just showed up with a camera and plunked it down wherever he could. Speaker 1 (34:46): When you're making a photo like this though, do you have any sort of, it's imprecise of edge where the frame exactly is, is it something of a guessing game for them? I mean, obviously they know where it's pointed, but how they wouldn't have, do they have a view finder or something to kind of help Speaker 2 (35:05): With Speaker 1 (35:06): That Speaker 2 (35:06): Or No, it is a little bit, it's a little of knowledge of your instrument of what is going to be on that at this stage. Later on, there are cameras where you can see the image kind of projected on this sort of ground glass back of the camera before you put the light sensitive whatever, whether it's a piece of film or glass plate or whatever in there. But at this stage, I think it's more sort of knowing your tools. Speaker 1 (35:36): Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I was in high school, we had to make a pinhole camera and take photos that way. So it was just like you Speaker 2 (35:43): Just point it over there Speaker 1 (35:45): And you just kind of go like, I bet this will look okay, but you don't really know what the frame is actually going to capture. Totally. But I guess if you've made enough photographs, you just start to develop a sense of that. So what else do we have? Speaker 2 (36:00): So this is a picture by an early German photographer. It a picture of art glass that's made in the 1850s that is the photographs made in the 1850s. The art glass is probably from significantly earlier. And so another thing that people think about at the beginning of photography is, well, what could this be for? What can it do for us that's sort of hard to do without it? Is that it can inventory and make large numbers of pictures of things like collections. And here's a guy that's applying that to this sort of collection of craft objects. Speaker 2 (36:37): If you look at some of the first photographs that are made by William Henry, Fox Talbot, who's sort of the British equivalent of Deger. So the guy that invent photography in England, one of the very first things that he's doing with it is taking pictures of the collections of beautiful things that he owns. And so again, it's there from the very beginning, and here's someone sort of carrying that out 10 years later in the world. So this is a collection of craft objects, craft productions that the owner or the person that sort commissioned this project is trying to get information about these objects out into the world to sort raise the level of craft in the age of industry. Speaker 1 (37:21): So Speaker 2 (37:21): It's in the 1850s. So it's working against mechanization and the sort of lowering levels of what people are capable of doing with their hands, which is fascinating if you think about it's photography a machine that's allowing him to get that information out there. But I mean, again, the function of it's to document these objects, but it's beautiful the way that the light plays through the glass. It's really beautiful. And he doesn't arrange them in a haphazard way, the photographer, right? They're quite artfully arranged. They sort of touch and overlap in a way that makes all these wonderful things happen with light. People sometimes have looked at these and thought, yeah, this is made in the 1850s, but you could look at sort of 20th century modernist photography where people are refracting light through crystals and glass and reflections is very important. And think, oh, they were thinking about that in 1850, which is pretty neat. Speaker 1 (38:16): Yeah. When you first opened this, I could tell that they were definitely, I wasn't exactly sure on the intention of it because they're very obviously arranged, but then I was also thinking they weren't arranged. I don't know. You would maybe compose a still life or something in that way. That's a hybrid. It's in between. Yeah, Speaker 2 (38:36): It's both. Speaker 1 (38:37): Yeah. And when you're talking about 20th century photography, having a connection to that, I could definitely see that just in the way that it's so flat and geometric as well, and the way that these shapes are kind of overlapping and combining these new shapes. It's really interesting. Speaker 2 (38:52): If you're really just thinking about documenting something, you're probably not going to put other things in front of it. Right. Speaker 1 (38:59): But Speaker 2 (38:59): By doing that, you get this amazing interplay between different glass objects and how light moves through one of them and then two of them and three of 'em at the same time. And it's really pretty beautiful. Speaker 1 (39:09): Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely gorgeous. All right. So what else do you got? Speaker 2 (39:14): Well, I thought we might lighten it up a little bit. Picture Speaker 1 (39:19): Of a dog. Oh, okay. Yeah. You are tugging on my heart strings with this one. Yeah, I'm a dog lover. Yeah. Speaker 2 (39:29): So it's a picture, a little quite small albumin print photographs, A 19th century print that, I guess a sort of common way to describe it was that it would be that it's a little bit py toned. It's a very, very pretty print of a small dog curled up on a sort of burlap dog bed. And it's trimmed down so that you're just, first of all, it's a taken at very close range, and it sort of trimmed down so that you feel very intimately involved with this little sleeping dog. You're right down at his level. You can sort of see the whiskers on his nose and the photograph is printed so that you almost feel like you could touch him. He would be soft, and the burlap sack would be rough, and the floor would have a certain smell and texture, and it would sound a certain way if you slid your feet over it. It's sort of like an old beat up wooden floor. So it's a picture that is a picture of what it's of, but it's also this whole emotional and tactile experience that you have when you see this picture. And there's that. Speaker 2 (40:36): And then there's the whole history of what it is, where it comes from historically and what it shows. And just to kind of fill some of that in. It's by a photographer called Edmund LaBelle, who's a Frenchman, who is actually, he's a painter, originally was a painter in the 1860s, and with a bunch of his painter friends goes to Italy and sort of learns how to be a painter. And when they're there, and Italy, a bunch of them take up photography because of, firstly, because of the way that they think it can be useful to them as painters. Speaker 2 (41:10): So you can photograph people holding a pose, and they will hold that pose in the photograph forever, not for the 10 minutes until they need to sneeze or whatever. So as a painter, that's pretty useful. So a lot of painters do this in the 19th century that they're interested in photography for how it can feed their painting practice, but also because they're artists, they're interested in photography for the sake of making beautiful pictures with the camera. And this is one of those moments when the two kind of overlap. Maybe he's photographing, it turns out through research. I'm pretty sure this is his dog. It's the artist's dog. Maybe he's photographing the dog because he wants to paint that later. Or maybe he's working, this is in the studio and he's working on a canvas and his beloved dog is sleeping next to him, and he thinks, I want to photograph this. It's beautiful for memory or for just the beauty of the image. The extra wonderful thing about this particular picture is through the wonders of research. I actually, I think I know this dog's name. Speaker 1 (42:15): Oh, yeah, Speaker 2 (42:15): Yeah. The dog's name is Toto, and I'm pretty sure we have a letter from this artist. He writes from Rome back to Paris during the Paris Commune. So when Paris is really overflowing with violence and it's a dangerous time to be in Paris. And he had left his dog in his studio in Paris, and he writes back to an associate in Paris and basically says, I really hope Toto is safe. And because of the way that lines up with some other historical events that Speaker 1 (42:42): We know Speaker 2 (42:42): About his life, I'm pretty sure that this is toto that we're looking at. So a dog that he definitely loved, which makes it all the nicer Speaker 1 (42:50): As a photograph. I love the way the dog just kind of completes this shape of this sort of pillow he's laying on too, the way it's kind of this almost like a leaf shape. And then the dog's kind of created the divot, but then it's sort of just perfectly, he's sort of the same color of it too. He's just kind of completing it in there. Yes. Speaker 2 (43:09): It's very beautiful the way it is. There's something so sweet about it. But not in a Orly sentimental or sacrament. Speaker 1 (43:15): No, no. Speaker 2 (43:15): It's a very kind of earnestly, beautiful, quiet sort of unlike, if you think of a picture from the 1860s, you might not think of a quiet sort of unposed moment of just real emotional connection. Speaker 1 (43:36): And it's like it's the easiest time to take a picture of a dog not moving Speaker 2 (43:43): Still. Yeah. Speaker 1 (43:45): So I've got lots of pictures of my dog sleeping. Speaker 2 (43:47): They're standing still. Kids are the same way, although it's sometimes frowned upon to take pictures of sleeping children. Speaker 1 (43:56): Why is that? It's like it's a Speaker 2 (43:57): Little creepy. Speaker 1 (43:58): Yeah. Let's Speaker 2 (43:58): Be honest. Speaker 1 (44:02): What's this one up here? Speaker 2 (44:03): This is by the same Speaker 1 (44:05): Photographer Speaker 2 (44:05): Of the glass. Just a difference. These are very light sensitive. There's early a salted paper prints. So if I exhibited one for a certain number of weeks, I would want to rest it for years and then Speaker 1 (44:15): Put out the other one and then have Speaker 2 (44:16): The other one to show. Speaker 1 (44:17): Yeah. Yeah. The other one's is a little more, I guess, lines up more with what you said its intention is. I wouldn't be too surprised about that. Just it doesn't have quite the crazy overlapping and stuff, but it's still very nice image that you would, it does almost feel like I wouldn't necessarily go, oh, this is obviously just like a cataloging or something. Yeah, Speaker 2 (44:42): No, it's way too beautiful for that. The way he's handling the light and the way you can feel, the volume of the glass sort of going around the corner and the way it sort of recedes into total shadow. Speaker 1 (44:49): Yeah. Yeah. Both are really great. Well, thank you so much for sharing these with me today. Speaker 2 (44:57): You're welcome. It's a pleasure always to show them and get them out. And I mentioned at some point earlier, but I'll say again as we sort of finish looking at these, the most recent thing I acquired is by black South African female photographer working, making photographs now Speaker 1 (45:13): In Speaker 2 (45:13): South Africa about the L G B T Q I community in South Africa. So we're from the beginning to yesterday, very different set of issues, Speaker 1 (45:21): But we do it all. Yeah. And we will definitely be seeing that piece coming up soon, right? Speaker 2 (45:26): Yes. So that's awesome. We hope we're Speaker 1 (45:30): Relatively Speaker 2 (45:30): Certain it's going to be out in January. Speaker 1 (45:33): Yeah. Don't come at us with pitchforks. And Speaker 2 (45:35): I'm as certain as I can be about these things that Speaker 1 (45:37): It'll be out Speaker 2 (45:38): View on January. Things Speaker 1 (45:39): Change sometimes, but yeah. Alright, well, thank you so much, Nathaniel. Speaker 2 (45:43): Yeah, thanks. Speaker 1 (45:51): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are Alrich Durr, the Age of Reformation and Renaissance Iris v Ur, transforming fashion, Ana England Kinship, and William KenRidge More sweetly play the Dance. Join us on November 30th at 7:00 PM for In Conversation, art and Fashion. Cynthia Amus, chief Curator and curator of Fashion Arts and Textiles will be chatting with special guests to discuss how these two worlds overlap and affect each other. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and even join our Facebook group. Our theme song is Efron Mu by Belau. Hey, we want to learn about you, so please take our very quick listener survey visit bit ly slash art palace survey, and that's with a capital a p and Ss. And take a very quick survey about yourself. You can also find the link on our website. Go to events and programs, and then scroll down to Art Palace podcast. You can also see images of some of the photographs that Nathaniel and I talked about today on this page. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.