Speaker 1 (00:00:00):
Coming up 

Speaker 2 (00:00:00):
On 

Speaker 1 (00:00:01):
Art 

Speaker 2 (00:00:01):
Palace. I'm the one guy who destroys the whole premise of the holiday film because I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm the Scrooge and I'm still the Scrooge at the end of this. 

Speaker 1 (00:00:24):
Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host Russell iig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is film critic TTT Stern nz. We just looked up, it has been now almost three years since you've been here. We both thought it was two or less, so I was like, I know you just did this. No, you didn't. It's actually been actually quite a while, but I thought it'd be fun to have you in to talk about Christmas movies today. And also I have a weird idea for what we can do in the galleries today and how to incorporate these. So I hope it works out, but I am not sure it will. You told me though, that you're not actually a big fan of Christmas movies. 

Speaker 2 (00:01:25):
I'm not a big fan of the holidays in general, so yeah, the movies actually make it worse for me. So yes, that's a problem. In terms of personally and professionally, yes. 

Speaker 1 (00:01:40):
What is it? I am not sure where to start. What is it about the holidays that you don't really love? Well, I 

Speaker 2 (00:01:48):
Hate the whole commercialization of the gifts and spending and all of that stuff. I mean, again, as a kid, I can remember I guess those early years when you believe that Santa Claus exists and you're going to get gifts and all that stuff. I had a few good years of that, 

Speaker 1 (00:02:09):
But then 

Speaker 2 (00:02:09):
Once I realized that that wasn't true, it just became much more about family. So for me, it was really the more exciting part of it was, okay, you get everybody together. We have these really great meals, and you hang out and you talk and you see people you haven't seen for a while, and the gifts and all that stuff kind of faded, but unfortunately in the culture that didn't fade. And then we have the season starting earlier and earlier each year with Black Friday sales, and now it feels like it starts in October and you just can't get away from all of that. And I'm on the other end of it too, just I guess on the personal side, because the only thing that kind of matters to me about the season outside of the family stuff is I get up and I go to Christmas morning mass and that's it. 

Speaker 1 (00:02:55):
I 

Speaker 2 (00:02:55):
Don't need anything else. And the great thing now is my wife is Jewish, so I get up, I go to Mass, and then we go to the movies and we have Chinese food, so that's a perfect holiday right there for me. I don't need anything else. I actually do get to go to the movies, but we don't see holiday films and I could have a good meal. 

Speaker 1 (00:03:17):
Yeah, I'm going to Brazil for Christmas, and one of the things that, the last time I was there was actually last November, and one of the things I realized we have exported now to around the world is Black Friday. It is. I mean, I've heard multiple people talk about this now in multiple countries, so it's not just there. It's all over the place. But it's so funny because they do not have American Thanksgiving obviously in Brazil, but they have Black Friday on the same day. It's always on the exact same day as it is here. And what's crazy is they call it Black Friday in 

Speaker 2 (00:03:57):
English, 

Speaker 1 (00:03:58):
So you'll be hearing this. We were sitting somewhere in a bar or something and you would see a TV commercial and it would be all in Portuguese, and then suddenly they would be like, that would just pop up so they don't translate it. It's still in English. It's bizarre. 

Speaker 2 (00:04:17):
That's horrible. I mean, really, that says something about us that I'm not happy again, that's why I don't like the season. 

Speaker 1 (00:04:26):
It was sort of like, oh, no, why did you take this? This is the worst thing Got, this is not the thing you should have adopted. I guess it makes sense. Obviously, you're not going to take this holiday that's built around American history, but did you have to take the terrible day after it? 

Speaker 2 (00:04:43):
Well, and like I said, and that's what we've got, which is kind of funny now talking about the idea of the holiday films, because again, I mentioned that part of my holiday celebration is actually going to the movies, but even at that, like I said, I don't want to see holiday films either. This is the time of the year when you're getting the best films that are coming out for award season. True. Why would I want to go see some, sadly, crappy either romcom or family thing that's going to make me want to, I hate to say it, but kind of puke, like, okay, really it's all about this fake holiday and how we're supposed to love each other and there's no real love or sentiment in it at all, 

Speaker 1 (00:05:25):
So 

Speaker 2 (00:05:25):
Why do I need to see that? Yeah, I'd rather go see Parasite right now. I think the thing that doesn't always work for me about holiday films is that you always feel that hard push or the hard sell for some sort of fake sentimentality, 

Speaker 1 (00:05:42):
And I 

Speaker 2 (00:05:43):
Don't really want to respond to that. Like I said, again, I'm already kind of cynical about holidays anyway, so it's like, well, when you push it on me and you're trying to say, oh, isn't this lovely? Isn't this sort of the spirit of the season? This is what we should all care about. And I'm kind of looking at you. I know that's not true in any way, so stop trying to push it on me. 

Speaker 1 (00:06:04):
What's funny is, I was thinking about this before you came in about the sort of thrust of most movies that I think you would actually call a full-blown Christmas movie where Christmas is actually a part of the 

Speaker 2 (00:06:21):
Plot, 

Speaker 1 (00:06:22):
Or is the point of the movie is almost always there is a person who does not like Christmas. That is almost always the thing about it. And I was sort of originally, I was going to say, it's such a false premise because it's like everyone likes Christmas, but then now I'm sitting here talking to you and I realize that actually you are the person, maybe the only audience for these movies, the only person who really needs these movies. I've never been sold 

Speaker 2 (00:06:53):
On them, 

Speaker 1 (00:06:53):
And you're the one person who doesn't appreciate them. 

Speaker 2 (00:06:57):
I'm the one guy who destroys the whole premise of the holiday film because I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm the Scrooge and I'm still the Scrooge at the end of this. I kind of like that though. Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:07:06):
Yeah. And I guess me saying that everybody loves Christmas is sort of brushing over the fact that there are many people in the world who do not celebrate Christmas. Many people in the country who do not celebrate Christmas, so obviously there are lots of people who don't care about Christmas for pretty good reasons. 

Speaker 2 (00:07:27):
But I would probably say though, there are fewer people who actually do what I do for a living who actually don't, in some ways have some sort of sense of appreciation of the season and the stories or a particular performance or whatever. But it's funny, I am setting myself up as this huge scrooge about the whole season and everything, but then one of the films that always works for me, and again, it's played year round anyway, so I guess technically it's really not a Christmas film, but it does take place during the holidays. Is love actually. 

Speaker 1 (00:08:08):
You love Actually, I 

Speaker 2 (00:08:09):
Love love, actually. And it's been funny this season telling people that because as soon as it comes out of my mouth, I'm always like, oh, crap. I just let people know that I'm probably not a real critic now because 

Speaker 1 (00:08:21):
They're like this. Oh, man, he likes love, actually. Yeah, no, tell me why. I love that. You love it? Yeah. Tell me why. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:08:28):
On a 

Speaker 1 (00:08:28):
Weird 

Speaker 2 (00:08:28):
Personal level, the Colin Firth segment of that story works for me because 25 years ago, I had this weird, massive dream of wanting to go to Portugal. 

Speaker 1 (00:08:42):
I 

Speaker 2 (00:08:42):
Was single and didn't know much about the world yet. I was out of college and really excited about things, and I was like, wow, I want to go to Portugal and I'll meet my wife and she'll speak Portuguese and I won't, and we'll have to figure out a language together and all of this weird, goofy, romantic stuff. But I just imagined at the end of this whole experience of meeting her and settling down there that 50 years later we would be outside one day at a massive table and we would have all of our family around, and technically we still wouldn't speak each other's languages, but we would have this whole loving family and everything spread out before us. And that was my dream back then. 

Speaker 1 (00:09:25):
And 

Speaker 2 (00:09:25):
In some ways, that's kind of what gets hijacked in that film. So every time I watch it, I'm always like, wow, he actually lived my dream. 

Speaker 1 (00:09:34):
Huh. That's fascinating. I mean, it is a movie that it's such a strange movie in that it's these little vignettes, so it's hard. When you started talking about this, I forgot that's even in that movie when you were saying it, I mean, it's been a while since I've seen it, but there's so many different stories happening that I was like, oh yeah, that happens. 

Speaker 2 (00:09:54):
And it's funny too because there's actually not only is it really not a Christmas or a holiday film, it's honestly not necessarily the most romantic and idealized kind of story either, because again, the whole notion of what kicks off the Firth character's journey is the fact that he's being cheated on by his wife with his brother. And if you look at all of the romantic stories, they all have this awkward weirdness to them. There's Alan Rickman who's about to cheat on his wife. There's the couple that meets while they were extras on a porn set. 

Speaker 1 (00:10:34):
I 

Speaker 2 (00:10:34):
Mean, again, if you really, really think about it, it's a bizarre film. 

Speaker 1 (00:10:39):
Leon 

Speaker 2 (00:10:39):
Neeson's character loses his wife and he's trying to coach his young son and sort of figuring out how to go after the love of his life. And it turns out that the love of his life has the same name as his mother, 

Speaker 1 (00:10:55):
Which 

Speaker 2 (00:10:55):
Yeah, again, once you start really breaking down all that stuff, it gets somewhat icky almost at times. 

Speaker 1 (00:11:03):
The other part of the movie that I always remember that 

Speaker 2 (00:11:05):
Is just, 

Speaker 1 (00:11:06):
To me, the most insane thing in that movie is the young guys who are 

Speaker 2 (00:11:11):
So excited 

Speaker 1 (00:11:12):
To go to America to meet women, and then they get here, and conventional storytelling has told me that this will not turn out the way they think it will, because their dream is so absurd, and it's like this idea, we're just going to go to America. We're British, we're going to charm everybody. It's going to be amazing. And then the story is that it works, and that's the end of it, basically. 

Speaker 2 (00:11:36):
And it works. Even that works in a bizarre way because they get here and they meet the most generically 

Speaker 1 (00:11:44):
Modelly beer commercial, basically, they walk into a beer commercial and the whole thing is shot in this way. That always feels like a dream sequence 

Speaker 2 (00:11:53):
Something, 

Speaker 1 (00:11:54):
But then there's no ever cutaway from it, or it just basically ends and it's like, yep, that was reality. 

Speaker 2 (00:12:03):
And they bring it back to England and it's like, okay, yeah, it worked. Hey, this is great. 

Speaker 3 (00:12:07):
It's 

Speaker 1 (00:12:08):
So insane. It's the most insane part of that movie that I'm always, I've always really loved that part of it. So maybe my thing about love actually is so many other little movies that it's easy to sort of like, oh, I like this one. This one I'm not so crazy about. And it is very strange form, but it does have an amazing cast too, and 

Speaker 2 (00:12:29):
It has the nativity story with a lobster out of nowhere. You get that and you're like, yeah, I'm the lobster, and you're okay. So again, it takes place during the holidays, but it doesn't feel any need or desire to stick to that. And it gives you just enough of, I guess, enough of the pure, kind, sweet sentiment of it all. But yeah, then it goes, and all those are the bizarre places 

Speaker 1 (00:12:58):
Too. I think it counts as a Christmas movie, though, in the sense that so many of those plots revolve around the traditions of Christmas, 

Speaker 2 (00:13:09):
Christmas 

Speaker 1 (00:13:10):
Plays, gifts. All of those things are sort of the crux for what's happening in these stories for the most part, that it seems like that's enough to me that it's not just a movie that is taking place at Christmas, but could take place at any other time of the year. I don't know if that movie could take place. I mean, I'm sure you could come up with a version where you're just buying somebody this for a birthday or something. You could come up with a version, but 

Speaker 2 (00:13:39):
Gary Marshall basically took that premise and then came up with New Year's Eve and Valentine's Day and whatever else, labor Day, or 

Speaker 1 (00:13:50):
There's a string of those, 

Speaker 2 (00:13:51):
Whatever he came up with. So you could separate out the holiday from it. But yeah, actually, I would agree with you, and it's funny, it feels more, definitely more like a holiday film in that way than say sort of the endless debate about whether diehard is a holiday 

Speaker 1 (00:14:09):
Film. Right, right. 

Speaker 2 (00:14:10):
Yeah. Diehard, yes, takes place at Christmas, at Christmas time. But yeah, even though I also kind of like the idea of playing around with arguing with people saying, yeah, it's a holiday film too, right? But no, that's again, and we've proven that you can set diehard at any time of the year and it doesn't matter. Makes 

Speaker 1 (00:14:29):
Sense. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's the only thing it's really doing is giving, and again, I haven't seen diehard in a while, but it's giving an excuse for an office party, right? That's the benefit of having it at Christmas is you have the office party happening and you have a good excuse for him to be coming home. Right. Is that kind of, 

Speaker 2 (00:14:49):
Well, he's not coming home. He's actually to meet his wife who works out in California 

Speaker 1 (00:14:55):
For 

Speaker 2 (00:14:55):
That one. I think the second one, they also use the time period sort of again, but she's coming back to New York 

Speaker 1 (00:15:03):
In 

Speaker 2 (00:15:03):
The second film. I can't believe I'm actually sitting here running through the time and the setting sequences of the diehard films. But 

Speaker 1 (00:15:11):
It's great. Diehards awesome. It's amazing. 

Speaker 2 (00:15:14):
Well, the first two, first one and a half, 

Speaker 1 (00:15:16):
I hadn't seen it until I was a fully grown adult, so I was sort of surprised by how much I liked it. Not a huge action fan, and when watched it, I was like, oh, this movie's great. It's a super tightly plotted movie. It's wonderful. It's wonderful to watch. Yeah, I think whenever anyone pulls out that diehards a Christmas movie, and honestly, again, I don't actually really care, it seems like the idea of arguing over these things seems absolutely absurd to me, but I always think of it like Die Hard's a Christmas movie in the same way Eyes Wide Shut is a Christmas movie, but your family does not gather around to watch Eyes Wide Shut. Right. 

Speaker 2 (00:16:00):
Wow. That's true. 

Speaker 1 (00:16:02):
I mean, I could maybe argue Eyes Wide Shut is more of a Christmas movie than Die Hard. In a way. I feel like it is at least visually omnipresent in the movie in a way that it's probably not for Die Hard. You can't escape Christmas lights in that movie. They're everywhere. 

Speaker 2 (00:16:19):
That's true. 

Speaker 1 (00:16:21):
They 

Speaker 2 (00:16:22):
Also don't make the same, again, it doesn't draw as much attention as, I mean diehard does in its really cheeky kind of moments, really plays up 

Speaker 1 (00:16:34):
The 

Speaker 2 (00:16:35):
Fun of, okay, yeah, I'm going to put the Santa Hat on a guy after I've killed him and sending him back that It's definitely doing that kind of stuff. Whereas yes, you're not going to get that in Eyes Wide Shut, but you're right, the season and the lights and everything about it, it stands in a very different way. 

Speaker 1 (00:16:54):
Yeah. One of the things I think about that when I think about the Christmas lights in that movie too, is it has this weird effect of, most of the Christmas lights in the movie are the same Christmas lights, so you'll be in various locations, but they have the exact same colors on the trees. 

Speaker 1 (00:17:14):
And so it's another thing that becomes sort of weird and dreamlike about that movie where it's like, is this reality that I'm watching? Because everything is sort of lit in these very specific ways, and you're seeing the same colors in all of these various places. I mean, it's not like every single tree in the movie, but I feel like there's a lot of the significant locations. There's a lot of this pink color in a lot of the lights that I feel like is very distinct. It's also not a very Christmas-y color. So I like that that becomes through 

Speaker 2 (00:17:48):
When, 

Speaker 2 (00:17:50):
See, now you're forcing me. I'm going to have to go back and watch that again. It's been a while since I've seen it. But when I was in Toronto this year at the Film festival, I took an evening off, went to an art gallery that was doing a talk on The Shining, and actually the talk was about the Canadian art that's featured in The Shining, which no one ever thinks about the notion of Canadian art in there, but this art historian has actually gone through frame frame of the film and found at this point, up to 32, I believe, different pieces of Canadian art that are featured in the film. And the question is like, well, what was Cooper thinking? Putting Canadian art, especially that much Canadian art in there. But now it's funny because I'm kind of thinking about the lights now in the same way. 

Speaker 2 (00:18:38):
Okay, yes, it was during the holidays, but that there was a reason why, as you said, he used that same look of the lights, and there's a purpose behind it all. So now, like I said, I kind of want to go back and really pay attention to that Eyes Wide shut, my Christmas movie recommendation. Right. There you go. And you just made my Christmas season by giving me a new Christmas film to think about. So there you go. That's exciting. If you're looking for something to watch with the kids and the family don't do it. I'm sorry. It's the gift that doesn't keep on giving. You don't want to do that. Yeah, it's probably, even if somebody took me seriously and tried to make a child watch Eyes Wide shut, they would leave the room within probably 10 to 15 minutes. Yeah, it wouldn't take long. I feel like they would be so bored with 

Speaker 4 (00:19:24):
It so quickly. 

Speaker 2 (00:19:27):
Well, you've given that, so going to, again, I teased this earlier. I'm actually going to give you the film for me now that feels like the best encapsulation of the Christmas season. And for me, that film is Children of Men. Interesting. Okay. 

Speaker 4 (00:19:48):
Again, does it happen at Christmas 

Speaker 2 (00:19:50):
Or are you just, it technically doesn't really, but what it is about, and again, it's it, it's almost like a Christ-like story in a way. Yeah, 

Speaker 4 (00:20:01):
Totally. That makes sense. 

Speaker 2 (00:20:02):
So that piece of it is what works, and again, it comes together. You get through this whole society, child hasn't been born in X number of years or over a decade, and you understand and see that humanity is about to collapse, and then yes, there is a woman who becomes pregnant and you're trying to figure out how to protect this woman. How do you get her to safety? And towards the end of the film, there is that sequence when she finally has the child and they're in this war torn area, bombs flying, bullets flying everywhere. Clive Owen is with her, and he has this baby, and he starts to try to move through this battle zone, and all of a sudden everyone recognizes, oh, crap. It's a child. And everything stops. And there is that moment of peace that takes place in that film. And for me, like I said, that's the moment. 

Speaker 2 (00:21:05):
That's like, okay, well, if you're going to talk about Christmas and the religion and that aspect of it, that's it. That's the perfect way. But again, you also get that with everything else that's come before. And I mean, it's got that really cool action sequence with the car chase where everything is shot inside the car. And again, all of this stuff that's built into it, you've got Julian Moore and Clive Owens, and she would tell edgy of fours in there. And so you've got a great cast. And again, all of this really weird and interesting kind of action heroics and the stuff going on, and then all of a sudden out of nowhere where you get that scene, and for me, that scene, and maybe it's because there's that little part of me, like I said, I'd still go to mass every Sunday, every Christmas morning. So the part of me that believes in that aspect of things 

Speaker 1 (00:22:02):
Sees that film and says, okay, yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:22:05):
That's 

Speaker 1 (00:22:05):
Still at the heart for me of what the whole 

Speaker 2 (00:22:08):
Season is supposed to be 

Speaker 1 (00:22:09):
About. And I feel like that's probably the least sort of trod territory of Christmas. I mean, most Christmas movies are based on, I feel like either a derivative of a Christmas Carol 

Speaker 2 (00:22:28):
Or 

Speaker 1 (00:22:28):
It's a Wonderful Life, or there's so many things that are just like, well, we'll just do that, or some sort of extension of it. I was thinking about, it's a Wonderful Life. I mean, it's a movie that, again, how much of that movie really takes place at Christmas? It's been a while since I've seen it, but I mean, I know obviously a lot of it does, and I wonder if 

Speaker 2 (00:22:51):
It feels like it's a little bigger than the season in some ways 

Speaker 1 (00:22:54):
Too, because it's so much about this whole person's life. 

Speaker 2 (00:22:57):
And 

Speaker 1 (00:22:57):
I remember when I first watched it, it was one of those movies that I was aware of. It's everything about it basically before I'd seen it. And when I watched it, I think I remember being like, oh, this is bigger than 

Speaker 1 (00:23:11):
A Christmas movie. In certain ways, it was surprising to me that it just kind of had become a Christmas movie. But I mean, I can understand why there's so many things that revolve around Christmas, and again, maybe there's something about the way the angels in that movie work that's similar to The Ghosts and Christmas Carol. There's maybe even a little bit of a connection there between those two stories that has connected it. But that's also an interesting thing to think about how Dickens isn't that old really, to have that big of an impact on culture. It's not that long ago. 

Speaker 2 (00:23:50):
It's true. That is true 

Speaker 1 (00:23:52):
To Imagine Christmas before Dickens Christmas before a Christmas carol. 

Speaker 2 (00:23:58):
Well, it's funny, as we were talking about all of this, we just hit on the idea that in essence, you don't really get the nativity story as part of the season on screen in that way. Because I was sitting here thinking about it, I was like, well, yeah, you have nativity plays, which again, are referenced in love actually, or whatever. The idea of getting children together to reenact that is something that is a part of the season, or again, especially within a religious context, but you don't have sort of that quintessential nativity film. Yeah. There's no film that really does that. We look back on and we're like, Ooh, yeah, that's it. And you're right. It's funny, we have Dickens, and 

Speaker 1 (00:24:52):
I think it'd be hard to make it that into a real three act structure though, isn't it? I think that's maybe the problem is that it's feels like a half hour at best. It doesn't feel like there's a reason when you go to those Christmas plays at a church or something, they're not usually, they don't have an intermission. Right? 

Speaker 2 (00:25:13):
Yeah. It's not a long story. 

Speaker 1 (00:25:14):
They usually have to pad them with music and things to sort of spread it out, because ultimately you can really cruise through that story pretty quickly. 

Speaker 2 (00:25:24):
Well, I mean, let's think about it though. Is it really any different than love? Actually, though? You could take the nativity story and throw in That's 

Speaker 1 (00:25:32):
True. 

Speaker 2 (00:25:33):
Several other kinds of 

Speaker 1 (00:25:35):
In there. What are the Shepherds doing? The Shepherd story, 

Speaker 2 (00:25:38):
That movie? 

Speaker 1 (00:25:39):
I want to see that actually, that would be actually fascinating, but I feel like the movie I want to see is one of these movies that is being protested basically, but having a little too much fun with the material. But I think that would be great. That would actually be a really fun movie to see, but I don't know if it would be sanctioned by the church. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:01):
I don't, but I feel like I'm hoping that somehow this podcast ends up reaching Richard Curtis. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:08):
Okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:09):
Doubt 

Speaker 1 (00:26:09):
That will happen. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:26:10):
I doubt it will. But you know what? If by some strange Chance Miracle he hears this, Hey, a 

Speaker 1 (00:26:15):
Christmas Miracle, 

Speaker 2 (00:26:16):
Think about the possibility of turning the nativity into the nativity, actually 

Speaker 1 (00:26:24):
Nativity actually. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:25):
Let's see what we can do about that. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:30):
So actually, you said you had seen last Christmas as well this year. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:36):
Yes. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:37):
Did you have to review it? 

Speaker 2 (00:26:40):
Yeah, I ended up talking about it on TV 

Speaker 1 (00:26:43):
For 

Speaker 2 (00:26:43):
The review. Unfortunately, I didn't have to write about it. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:46):
Oh, okay. That 

Speaker 2 (00:26:47):
Would've been 

Speaker 1 (00:26:48):
Difficult 

Speaker 2 (00:26:49):
And troubling in its own way. 

Speaker 1 (00:26:50):
It's too much work. Too much work for something you didn't like. 

Speaker 2 (00:26:54):
Yeah, and again, it's one of those films you go into, and if you don't know The Twist, okay, 

Speaker 1 (00:27:02):
I was thinking about this today. I was like, oh, I saw it as well, and I was like, oh, I want to talk to him about it, but I don't know how to talk about it. That doesn't give away 

Speaker 2 (00:27:10):
That 

Speaker 1 (00:27:11):
This movie has a twist. Honestly, I feel like telling you that this movie has a twist means you'll probably figure it out halfway through it, because I had heard the same thing. And so then I started realizing, but man, when I realized what that twist was, I was like, that is bananas. That is so a part of me sort of respects this movie for being so audaciously weird and also hyper literal about song lyrics. 

Speaker 2 (00:27:40):
Definitely. That's exactly what I've been 

Speaker 1 (00:27:42):
Thinking the whole time. I'm like, 

Speaker 2 (00:27:44):
Maybe you shouldn't go that literal with the song 

Speaker 1 (00:27:47):
Lyrics. Right. So man, again, this is only interesting to people who have actually seen this movie trying to not just give it away by talking about it. But 

Speaker 2 (00:27:56):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:27:57):
It is the most literal interpretation of a song into a movie that I've ever seen in a way that of course, you don't think it is for a while. But 

Speaker 2 (00:28:09):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:28:11):
That was a real turn that, 

Speaker 2 (00:28:13):
Yeah. And I'm curious to see, and again, I'm going to make another weird acknowledgement here. It's just the fact that I've actually never seen Game of Thrones. 

Speaker 1 (00:28:24):
Oh, okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:28:25):
So it's in a queue in my head somewhere where I know I need to see it at some point. So yes, I haven't seen Amelia Clark in the thing that everyone knows her for, but I have seen her in film so far, and my thought about her is, wait a minute. You don't want to be her romantic object of her affection in films. It doesn't end well for you. 

Speaker 1 (00:28:52):
That holds true for Game Thrones as well. 

Speaker 2 (00:28:55):
Yeah, I didn't know about that, but I'm just kind of like, wow. Yeah, I wonder if she knows that she's doing that, if she's making these very conscious decisions about that. I mean, it ends fine for her. Yeah, I mean, all of these films kind of end fine for her. And again, she's in that really bad Terminator film, which of course kind of lets you know that it doesn't exactly end well for the Kyle Reese 

Speaker 1 (00:29:21):
Character in there, the one that is brand new or one before earlier. 

Speaker 2 (00:29:25):
No, it's the one before. 

Speaker 1 (00:29:26):
It was the one New one isn't out yet, right? 

Speaker 2 (00:29:28):
The new one is out. It 

Speaker 1 (00:29:30):
Is. Okay. The one with Linda Hamilton 

Speaker 2 (00:29:31):
Is Back, which I kind of liked, but it didn't do well at the box office, but hers was, I think that was Terminator Genesis that she was in, and again, it kind of tried to reboot things and sort of create the idea of, I guess her character is Sarah Connor, and again, you had a Kyle Reese who comes back and things don't, again, we all kind of know what happens to Kyle Reese. So again, she has found herself in roles where yes, her romantic interests just don't ever 

Speaker 1 (00:30:05):
Survive, 

Speaker 2 (00:30:05):
Survive 

Speaker 1 (00:30:07):
That Terminator movie had. It was following the tradition of, I feel like every movie trailer I saw this summer and up through now I guess, which is to take a song and then have a moody really slowed down cover of it, 

Speaker 2 (00:30:26):
Which 

Speaker 1 (00:30:26):
That one used a Bjorks hunter, which because I'm such a real Bjork head, I of course perked up immediately when I heard the words. I was like, wait a minute. But it was like if travel is searching, everything has to have a super slowed down version of an upbeat song or something. The one that made me crack up the most was the Godzilla trailer with Over the 

Speaker 2 (00:30:55):
Rainbow. 

Speaker 1 (00:30:56):
Yes. I just was like, what does that mean? 

Speaker 2 (00:31:02):
And it doesn't mean 

Speaker 1 (00:31:03):
Anything at all. I trying to, I mean, went and saw it and I still was like, I don't think this means anything. I don't, there's exactly one movie that came out recently that gets to use Somewhere Over the Rainbow, and that's Judy and I don't think Godzilla earned it. No, not at all. I mean, I kept trying to be really stretching my mind. Is there, I mean, because it's not hard to imagine movies pulling from the basic sort of idea of Wizard of Oz, but that one doesn't in any way. But then again, we just 

Speaker 2 (00:31:38):
Lamented the idea of last Christmas being way too literal. 

Speaker 1 (00:31:43):
So 

Speaker 2 (00:31:43):
I guess this is the other end of the spectrum where you can not have any connection at all, 

Speaker 1 (00:31:49):
But I think some connection would be good. I'm not saying it has to be as literal as last Christmas, but something just give me something to connect to. Otherwise you could use anything you could use, I don't know. I'm trying to think of, you could use the Brady Bunch theme song if you were sitting there and all of a sudden a moody, here's a story 

Speaker 2 (00:32:21):
Now. I want to see that being used though now. That would great Lovely 

Speaker 1 (00:32:27):
Lady. But then it's not has anything to do with the Brady Bunch. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (00:32:34):
Honestly, I could hear that in a reboot of the X-Men right now. I totally, I want to see that film. 

Speaker 1 (00:32:45):
Okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:32:46):
Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (00:32:49):
Well, any other, before we go in the galleries, any other last Christmas movie Thoughts? Last Complaints, last 

Speaker 2 (00:32:56):
Christmas movie? Thoughts? Again. I 

Speaker 1 (00:32:58):
Didn't mean that as last Christmas, but I realize as I said that I meant Last Thoughts concerning Christmas movies or Last Thoughts concerning the film last Christmas? 

Speaker 2 (00:33:07):
Well, the Less Said about Last Christmas the better, except that people who have been teased by our talk of its twist, you need to go see it. 

Speaker 1 (00:33:17):
Except that we were both telling you to go see a movie that we don't really think is actually all that. Very good. 

Speaker 2 (00:33:20):
It is not, but it's fun. 

Speaker 1 (00:33:23):
It's fine. I think I gave my review here in the Office, but Office Review to People, which is like, it's fine. It's a cable watch. 

Speaker 2 (00:33:32):
Yes, definitely. 

Speaker 1 (00:33:33):
It's more of a cable watch than you do not need to rush out to the theater to see this movie, but if it's on, you've got an hour and a half, sure, why not? 

Speaker 2 (00:33:41):
You'll 

Speaker 1 (00:33:41):
Be treated to Emma Thompson for a while, 

Speaker 2 (00:33:44):
Which 

Speaker 1 (00:33:45):
I'm always down for that. She's funny. She's charming in it. I always forget the actress's name who runs the store. Oh yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:33:56):
Michelle Yale. 

Speaker 1 (00:33:57):
Yeah. She was just in Crazy Rich Asians, 

Speaker 2 (00:34:00):
Right? Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (00:34:00):
She's great. Again, it's like she's working with what she's got here. 

Speaker 2 (00:34:04):
Right. 

Speaker 1 (00:34:05):
Definitely 

Speaker 2 (00:34:05):
Don't give her much to 

Speaker 1 (00:34:06):
Work for. Don't. So I don't want to say, oh, her part is amazing or something, but just I think she is fun to watch kind of no matter what she's doing. Felt like from the trailers I had seen, I thought her character was going to go in one way and they kind of took her in a different direction than I wasn't expected, and she became a little bit more lovable than I expected. So I kind of liked that I was down with her in that. So there's at least enough people who are talented in that movie to sort of pull it through. 

Speaker 2 (00:34:38):
And if you like the George Michael music. 

Speaker 1 (00:34:41):
Yeah, sure. So he died on Christmas. 

Speaker 2 (00:34:45):
Right. 

Speaker 1 (00:34:46):
And this is something that's not really addressed by this movie, but it feels like it's part of it on some 

Speaker 2 (00:34:53):
Level. It does. 

Speaker 1 (00:34:55):
And I don't know, 

Speaker 2 (00:34:56):
That actually makes it feel like that's part of the twist though too. 

Speaker 1 (00:35:01):
Yeah, but it's super weird. I don't know if I was George Michael, I would really like the fact that me just having to die on Christmas has put me now as the ghost of Christmas in this weird way. I don't know. Yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:35:16):
I think I kind of hinted at that when I talked about it on TV too. Yeah. There there's something that's uncomfortable about, or maybe unsettling is more like it. 

Speaker 1 (00:35:28):
Yeah, only a few years ago it really was quite recent, and so I don't know, there's just something, I mean, maybe that makes sense that George Michael and Christmas are connected in our brains for some weird reason now, even though again, I think that's the only song, right, last Christmas. Does he have any other, I'm sure there's some, yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:35:49):
I think that's it. 

Speaker 1 (00:35:50):
I'm sure there's some album somewhere where he sings Jingle Bells or something, but it's the only one anyone knows or cares about is last Christmas. 

Speaker 2 (00:35:58):
Right. 

Speaker 1 (00:35:58):
Yeah. I was trying to think of movies like actual, I'm probably in your boat where I don't really love a lot of the Christmas movies. I'm probably similarly not terribly sentimental, and I agree the point of just like, oh, you have to love Christmas is not enough usually for a character, but for some reason I am a real sucker for Scrooge. The 

Speaker 2 (00:36:23):
Scrooge Made My List 

Speaker 1 (00:36:25):
Did. It 

Speaker 2 (00:36:26):
Was one of those films that, and again, I think, yeah, there's something about Bill Murray, he feels like again, yeah, his take on, it's kind of like, okay, yeah, if I have to watch this, I can identify with that performance 

Speaker 1 (00:36:42):
And how he 

Speaker 2 (00:36:43):
Looks at things. It's 

Speaker 1 (00:36:44):
Like a really smart casting for an Ebenezer Scrooge character. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:49):
Yes, definitely. 

Speaker 1 (00:36:50):
Because Bill Murray's always sort of walking a weird line of being unlikeable. 

Speaker 2 (00:36:56):
You always get the sense that, and 

Speaker 1 (00:36:57):
Being a jerk 

Speaker 2 (00:36:58):
Wherever he is, he doesn't really believe in whatever the theory or the thought or the driving force behind whatever film he's in. He's always kind of like, 

Speaker 1 (00:37:09):
Yeah, he's always the cynic of the group, or he's always sort of, yeah, you're right. He's always outside of it a little bit. And so that makes him perfect to be the person who doesn't really care about Christmas in a way that, 

Speaker 2 (00:37:24):
And I mean 

Speaker 1 (00:37:25):
It's also just great because such a jerk in it that it's just delightful that is sort of enough to make you want to understand the sort of redemption. Again, it has less to do about Christmas and more about just being a decent person. And so maybe that's why it works for me on that level. But I really 

Speaker 2 (00:37:46):
Love Scrooge feel. I am far more interested in that aspect than say, will Ferrell and Elf, which will Ferrell and Elf is fine. But yeah, again, it feels forced that love of the season and even the whole, I mean, again, you're talking about really the love of Santa Claus and elves and all that stuff, but even at that, it's just kind of like, okay, I get it. But that's what people buy into. And I think it takes a different perspective to buy into Scrooge 

Speaker 1 (00:38:17):
And 

Speaker 2 (00:38:18):
Again, especially the Bill Murray character in that portrayal. And 

Speaker 1 (00:38:21):
I think it's also, it's just one of those movies where I like 

Speaker 2 (00:38:24):
Watching so many 

Speaker 1 (00:38:25):
People in it. All of the ghosts are great. They're so wonderful. Alfred Woodard as the Bob Raett character, she's so fun to in that movie, just to watch her be exhausted by Bill Murray's hair. It's just so great. So there's lots of things I really love and it sort of pokes fun at. Maybe another thing that makes it work for me is that it's also poking fun of the sort of sentimentality and the silliness of the system because he is, at the same time, he's a TV producer and he's making this live TV Christmas Carol, which features the solid gold dancers, one of my favorite parts. So there's sort of all of these akronist things that are just clearly just meant to get ratings and things. So it's also poking fun of that at the same time. 

Speaker 2 (00:39:20):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:39:20):
It's pretty great. 

Speaker 2 (00:39:22):
Again, just to kind of wrapping things up for me, thinking about the holiday films and all that, again, I just feel like the season itself is we would be better served and if we would stop thinking about the idea of trying to create those films and just really kind of look at where we are naturally anyway, like I said, we are always at the holidays at the Perfect Storm for the best films that are going to come out in any given year. 

Speaker 1 (00:39:50):
Why 

Speaker 2 (00:39:50):
Don't we just accept that piece up and say, well, wait a minute, here's the real gift that we're getting. And again, I have a slightly different take on the season this year because I'm much more involved in voting and keeping track of the best films of the year, but within this crazy period got, Netflix has given us the Irishman and marriage story, and two Popes is getting ready to come out and parasites here, and in the next day or two, I'm going to end up seeing the rise of Skywalker and Cats, which again, those exact don't exactly fit into what I'm talking about coming 

Speaker 1 (00:40:31):
Out on the same day 

Speaker 2 (00:40:33):
I'm seeing. Yeah. So I'm kind of looking at all of that and I'm like, well, wait a minute. You know what? If you like movies at this time of the year, there's going to be something for everybody. So that's the real gift who don't worry about coming up with these crappy films that are pushing stuff in that way. 

Speaker 1 (00:40:53):
Let's 

Speaker 2 (00:40:54):
Just enjoy the other stuff that we're getting. 

Speaker 1 (00:40:57):
Well, let's go to the galleries and talk some more about Christmas. 

Speaker 2 (00:41:02):
Alright, 

Speaker 1 (00:41:10):
So we are in Gallery 1 21, and what I thought we would do is we're going to look at a few pieces, and we're not going to spend very much time, we're just going to do it really quickly, but we're going to look at a painting and then try to come up with a basic premise of a Christmas movie that could be inspired by this painting. Now, the fact that you don't like Christmas movies is actually, I love this because I 

Speaker 2 (00:41:35):
Want you to 

Speaker 1 (00:41:37):
Roast these. I want you to come up with the worst movies the best. We're going to come 

Speaker 2 (00:41:41):
Up with really bizarre ideas how I can 

Speaker 1 (00:41:43):
Feel it. So this first one is local. This is et Hurley or Edward Timothy Hurley, Garfield Park, and it's this really snowy scene in downtown Cincinnati, very impressionist style with this almost feels like the snow is falling in front of you and you can barely make out figures and cars and things. So what would your first instinct of this movie be? 

Speaker 2 (00:42:15):
Well, the funny thing is the first instinct again, and yes, I'm standing here reading about this painting, and if I didn't know that it was from downtown Cincinnati, my first thought would be, this is in New York. 

Speaker 1 (00:42:26):
I live right here. So this is like, I'm immediately like, oh, no, no, I know this one. To me, it feels 

Speaker 2 (00:42:32):
Very distinct. I live downtown now too. But yeah, I don't know this park in that way, but like I said, it reminds me of New York and if I'm going to go with that idea, especially kind of going off the film notion, we have tons of stories in New York that take place with the whole notion of people meeting or rendezvous or things like that. But I want to move away from that and try to come up with a Cincinnati version 

Speaker 1 (00:42:58):
Of this 

Speaker 2 (00:42:58):
Meeting. 

Speaker 1 (00:42:59):
Well, and I was just going to a little background here. Some of the reasons you might not have recognized it right away is the park has changed quite a lot since 1917 when this was painted. One of the differences is the location of the sculpture. So William Henry Harrison, that's the horse one right here is, and Garfield has swapped locations since their original placement. So this is, if you imagine this would be viewed from where the Garfield sculpture is now, which is closer to the public library 

Speaker 2 (00:43:37):
Looking 

Speaker 1 (00:43:38):
Down. And another thing that's different is that church had a really, really tall spire that was destroyed in a wind. So no, that really, really tall spire does not exist anymore. 

Speaker 2 (00:43:51):
So 

Speaker 1 (00:43:51):
If you're going down there, it's still a very dramatic shot because you can see the towers of city hall and the temples and the churches all around there, but you can't, don't have anything quite that dramatic anymore because it was destroyed. Yeah, I really love, I would totally keep this movie set in 1917 because I love the cars and everything, 

Speaker 2 (00:44:12):
And you do get that feel in this painting and yeah, I think I would go, yeah, okay, we can go with the setting as being the same. But I would almost imagine in my head, and this is going to get really weird and bizarre, but I'm kind of thinking of a version of the public 

Speaker 1 (00:44:33):
That 

Speaker 2 (00:44:33):
Takes place during the holiday season where again, I'm looking at this, and you're right, the painting really kind of gives this sense of you're in the midst of this snowstorm and you can't get away. And maybe the few figures that we see are trying to find that place, that shelter, and maybe there's someone waiting for them in the shelter and it's either a loved one or a potential romantic attachment that they're going to trying to get to meet. Now I'm becoming really conventional in the way I'm approaching this. 

Speaker 1 (00:45:14):
No, I think all of these are going to become really conventional because that's the point. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:18):
You 

Speaker 1 (00:45:18):
Can't kind of create a Christmas movie. You felt like leaning into conventions because that's what they're based around. And 

Speaker 2 (00:45:24):
It is funny too, because when you decided again to set it in 1917, it's like, yeah, I can't really do anything goofy or 

Speaker 1 (00:45:32):
Ironic about 

Speaker 2 (00:45:32):
1917. It's like I 

Speaker 1 (00:45:34):
Feel like I have to 

Speaker 2 (00:45:35):
Take it as it is. 

Speaker 1 (00:45:36):
Yeah. It's not a time period that really you can't, I feel like we don't know enough about it. 

Speaker 2 (00:45:43):
I literally did just watch the film 1917 last week, so I can't get that time period out of my head. And like I said, I can't do anything really 

Speaker 1 (00:45:53):
Fun 

Speaker 2 (00:45:53):
Or cheeky with it. So it's like I 

Speaker 1 (00:45:55):
Feel like we don't even really, just as a culture, I feel like we don't know a lot about World War I and we just don't talk about it all that much. It doesn't have the same kind of resonance. We mostly don't have grandparents who fought in it or anything. So it's this time that is a little bit too removed from us maybe. 

Speaker 2 (00:46:15):
So you have to be fairly earnest about it. And yeah, like I said, and again, I actually, I really like the painting, but again, I'm kind of caught up in the cold and the snowstorm itself, and I'm thinking that yes, there is something, again, very much in reminiscent of the idea of the public 

Speaker 1 (00:46:36):
In there. So it's funny, before you said that, I was actually formulating my own little movie in my head, and it's similar though. It is also probably deeply conventional, but I was thinking about the same idea of being snowed in as a premise and thinking about people who can't get to their real families on Christmas who are trapped in an apartment building. And so maybe we could borrow a little love actually, where you have these different sort of stories happening in an apartment building. Again, I'm thinking very much about myself here because that's my association with this place is living in an apartment near here, 

Speaker 2 (00:47:12):
But 

Speaker 1 (00:47:13):
Imagining these people who almost have to become this sort of found family for Christmas could be kind of interesting. That 

Speaker 2 (00:47:23):
Is exactly what the season does for us. 

Speaker 1 (00:47:25):
Yeah, yeah. Okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:27):
Alright. So, okay, I'm with you on this. I like this idea, but I'm going to tell you now, 

Speaker 1 (00:47:32):
You 

Speaker 2 (00:47:33):
Say we have two more of these. We have to do something a little more interesting with one of the other two. 

Speaker 1 (00:47:37):
I think we will. Alright. Maybe 

Speaker 2 (00:47:40):
We got to play around with these somehow. 

Speaker 1 (00:47:41):
Yeah, that one was very conventional. It was really boring. 

Speaker 2 (00:47:45):
Yeah, let's mix it up. 

Speaker 1 (00:47:47):
Yeah, I mean we didn't even really, what would you call that movie, 

Speaker 2 (00:47:52):
Man? Wow, 

Speaker 1 (00:47:56):
That good, huh? 

Speaker 2 (00:47:57):
I mean, the sad thing is I am looking down again. I'm kind of like, wow. Again, I've got 1917 on the brain and I can't get that out. So no, that shouldn't have anything to do with it. 

Speaker 1 (00:48:09):
Titles are tough too. It's one of those things where it's like I want to be the person who can just rip out a title really fast. But the truth is I usually am mulling them over forever. And then if I ever say anything that sounds like a very clever thing. It's just because I thought it not ever, it's only a long time 

Speaker 2 (00:48:27):
As a writer, that's the great thing about you. You spend so much time, that's where 

Speaker 1 (00:48:30):
You don't have to do it on the spot. You get to workshop 

Speaker 2 (00:48:33):
It. 

Speaker 1 (00:48:35):
I don't know, 

Speaker 2 (00:48:35):
A way in a manger. I'm thinking a way in the park or I don't know. 

Speaker 1 (00:48:39):
Hey, maybe the rule is all of these can just be called the painting title. You can just call this, the movie can just be called Garfield Park. 

Speaker 2 (00:48:48):
Sure. 

Speaker 1 (00:48:48):
Oh see, that saves us. But it's a very noncommittal Christmas movie. The studio execs are never going to let us pass that. 

Speaker 2 (00:48:56):
But I don't know. I mean, again, I think with the whole idea of the little vignettes and the people in the apartment buildings, maybe there is something to that 

Speaker 1 (00:49:06):
I'm already imagining. I mean, I like it actually as a title. I think it's actually a nice, they wouldn't be a nice movie title, but I'm also imagining a studio. Exactly. It was like Garfield Park, like the cat. What's this? 

Speaker 2 (00:49:20):
In my mind, I have the other studio exec who's like, well, is it like that Gosford Park film that no one 

Speaker 1 (00:49:28):
Liked? I thought of Gosford Park too. Hey, everyone loved Gosford Park. I love Gosford Park. None of you're a studio exec. Come on now. Wait, you're saying the general public doesn't just love an Altman movie with Maggie Smith? So specifically a movie for me as I'm saying these words, a Robert Altman movie with Maggie Smith. 

Speaker 2 (00:49:50):
Wow. 

Speaker 1 (00:49:58):
So we are now in Gallery 2 25 and we're looking at a painting called Last Flowers by Jules Ton. I should say that more French. I'm sorry. Ton Sounds good. Ton. 

Speaker 2 (00:50:15):
I'm not even going to try that. 

Speaker 1 (00:50:16):
Okay, so this one is not explicitly, I mean, I guess the last one was not explicitly Christmas either. This is just like winter basically. But I kind of was thinking this had the makings of potentially a good Hallmark Christmas movie even. We might have to update it. We might not keep it in 1890. You could take it to the future or the present. Really not maybe the future. I don't know. That's 

Speaker 2 (00:50:42):
Interesting. I'm trying to figure this one out because again, unfortunately because of the last Flowers title, I immediately went to, can we do something last Christmassy with it? 

Speaker 1 (00:50:53):
Oh, okay. And 

Speaker 2 (00:50:54):
I don't want to now, 

Speaker 1 (00:50:55):
Well, yeah, 

Speaker 2 (00:50:57):
There's something a little pure about this piece. 

Speaker 1 (00:51:00):
Oh, so we should describe it. I've done a bad job at that. Okay. So what is happening in this painting is we have this woman and she is walking in the snow in a garden, which we 

Speaker 2 (00:51:14):
Presume is 

Speaker 1 (00:51:15):
Her garden. And she is trimming flowers that she's sort of collected around her waist. She's got some sort of little, what do you call that thing? I don't even know. I 

Speaker 2 (00:51:24):
Know that's true. I can't 

Speaker 1 (00:51:26):
Figure out 

Speaker 2 (00:51:27):
What kind of pouchy 

Speaker 1 (00:51:29):
Apron, apron pouchy thing. It's tied around her, but she's able to kind of collect all these flowers in it. So I guess the idea is these are the last flowers that are probably going to grow for the year, is how I've always 

Speaker 2 (00:51:40):
Interpreted 

Speaker 1 (00:51:41):
The title. I don't know. But I feel like if you were to make a Hallmark movie about this, she is a real headstrong business woman. She deals with flowers, she sells flowers. 

Speaker 2 (00:51:57):
Sure, I hear you. You know what? I'm going to fight it. And again, I'm going to go more conventional 

Speaker 1 (00:52:05):
Just 

Speaker 2 (00:52:05):
Because I am willing to stick with the 1890 time period here and just the idea that she's collecting these flowers. And again, we can see that there are flowers that are covered with snow. So she's finding, again, just those perfect buds that still have their color, that haven't completely been touched by the snow. She's collecting them. She's going to bring them back into the house. I don't want to see her as the owner of the garden. I think she works for the family that owns the house 

Speaker 1 (00:52:39):
On the 

Speaker 2 (00:52:39):
Grounds with the garden. 

Speaker 1 (00:52:41):
I'm trying to come up with a sort of, to me now, if we go that route, I think this could be the culmination of this is a big pivotal moment in the movie where collecting her precious last flowers that she was going to use for something else, but she's going to use them to decorate the tree at the orphanage or something. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:05):
Right? Yep. I'm totally with you on 

Speaker 1 (00:53:07):
That. Yeah. This needs to be a sacrifice for the good of others. And so that's why I'm trying to think of what is the thing she needs the flowers for? There has to be a thing she needed the flowers for before and then she's going to give that up to do something that is better. 

Speaker 2 (00:53:25):
Yeah, I was thinking it was kind of like the choice between collecting these and them just going to the old mistress of the house 

Speaker 1 (00:53:34):
And she 

Speaker 2 (00:53:34):
Instead says, you know what? Now the old ladies own this house. The flowers are her. Sure. But yeah, let's take them to the orphanage or takes them somewhere. So she's 

Speaker 1 (00:53:45):
Like the help who goes out and there's a very demanding Maggie Smith type who Maggie doesn't 

Speaker 2 (00:53:52):
Need the 

Speaker 1 (00:53:52):
Flowers. That's true. Who's upstairs? Kind of like pin rose. Where's my, something like that? 

Speaker 2 (00:54:02):
No, she's taking them out. And maybe not the orphanage, because I can't imagine kids in an orphanage really caring that much about flowers, but they're going somewhere, I don't know, the parish nearby or some other family that doesn't have gifts. And this is their opportunity to get something that reminds them of the beauty and love of the season, that kind of thing. 

Speaker 1 (00:54:28):
Or she meets somebody who has to open her eyes to the world of Christmas and who also maybe can do something with the flowers. That's what I'm trying to imagine what that would be. He makes amazing, I was going to say perfume, but that's perfume isn't really helpful for orphans, so that's not really great. It doesn't high quality, luxury goods made from that doesn't lend itself to, 

Speaker 2 (00:54:58):
And of course, now I'm also thinking, I've seen way too many comic book films or whatever, kind of like, wow, what if the flowers had powers that could somehow do something? 

Speaker 1 (00:55:06):
We can go there. That might be the more interesting way. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:12):
Again, I keep looking at them and again, the colors stand out. So yes, there should be something more meaningful that you're going to get out of these flowers. And 

Speaker 1 (00:55:22):
These are magic Christmas flowers. 

Speaker 2 (00:55:24):
Yeah. I mean, come on. 

Speaker 1 (00:55:25):
They're each flower. Oh, okay. I I'm onto something now. Okay. Each flower, there's only so many of them, but she meets somebody or figures out this way that a flower can be transformed into a gift or a wish. Yes, 

Speaker 2 (00:55:46):
Yes. I'm totally down with that. 

Speaker 1 (00:55:48):
So that she can basically kind of amali her way through this town or something by helping 

Speaker 2 (00:55:55):
People. Beautiful. And it's the town. 

Speaker 1 (00:55:58):
Yes, 

Speaker 2 (00:55:58):
It is the town. She's not necessarily taking it to one place, but she will go maybe house by house and each family in the house gets whatever 

Speaker 1 (00:56:10):
They need and then she can. And then maybe there isn't a lady or somebody, maybe there's a ger who demands them, but maybe the sacrifice is also more about that she needs something and she's not using them for herself. But then at the end, the townspeople come together for her or something. You have something like that where 

Speaker 2 (00:56:35):
Again, a little gets us back to the overall traditional kind of spirit of things. Everybody comes back and it's like, wow, thanks to your flowers, we've gotten what we wanted or what we needed for the season, and we want to give you something back to warm your heart as well. 

Speaker 1 (00:56:53):
Okay. That might work on me. I am a sucker for gratitude in movies is the most, I don't cry at death, but gratitude I will totally cry at. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:05):
Alright. 

Speaker 1 (00:57:05):
Like bowing to hobbits. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:10):
That'll 

Speaker 1 (00:57:10):
Get me. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:11):
I'm feeling this one. I'm surprised that I'm saying this, but no, I'm feeling 

Speaker 1 (00:57:16):
This idea. I like magic flowers that turn to gifts. Yeah. I think that's definitely the way to go with this one. Wow. Also, yeah, we needed more magic. So that's totally, 

Speaker 2 (00:57:25):
You 

Speaker 1 (00:57:25):
Go. I mean a little Christmas magic. All right, last flowers. Okay, let's move on to our next one. So we are in Gallery two 11 and in front of Horace Pippin's, a Christmas morning breakfast TT just released a heavy sigh, a telling heavy sigh, which makes me think he's maybe dreading this one. I don't know. 

Speaker 2 (00:57:58):
I've been thinking about this one the most because I believe you mentioned this when you first introduced the idea of me coming in. 

Speaker 1 (00:58:06):
Yeah. I actually have not talked about this painting ever on the show, and I had plans to do it last year around Christmas as well, and my guest fell through or something, and so I was just kind of like, oh, I need to, so this year I was thinking, I was like, I need to talk about it. It's always fun to have holiday connections. And this is the probably only piece we have in the museum that has Christmas in the title. 

Speaker 2 (00:58:34):
Yes. 

Speaker 1 (00:58:35):
So that's probably, it is the most direct Christmas painting we have. So just to describe the painting, we have this sort of Christmas tree off to the one side. This boy sitting at a table, his mother is bringing him a stack of pancakes. The house is sparsely decorated and you get the impression that there's cracks in the walls and you can see boards and things through the wall. So you're kind of under the impression that this is not a wealthy family, and the artist is a self-taught artist too. So there's some kind of very peculiar, there is no sort of realistic perspective in the painting. The floorboards are straight up and down the walls generally kind of just everything is very flat against the wall. So it all has a sort of childlike look about it as well. Anything else? 

Speaker 2 (00:59:41):
That's true everything that you've said, but I'm also intrigued by the idea that in Horace Pippin's work, there is something very kind of realistic in the simplicity of what he's rendering. He's giving you exactly what he sees of this scene. 

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
And it's very specific too. Yeah. It's not even the shapes of things feel very specific. Like this picture, like coffee pot maybe on the stove feels very specific. This alarm clock over his head and there's just all these lots of details. Even the ornaments on the tree feel very, very specific of different things. It looks like popcorn balls maybe and popcorn garland. And the candy canes, there's an orange under the tree, which is always this thing. Get in for Christmas in old movies. Right. 

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Which is funny though because, and again, I know again, the premise of what we're doing here is trying to come up with a film for this, but the funny thing for me is I don't, and I don't know if it's Pippin's work itself or what, but I don't feel a movie coming off of this. Maybe that was why I sighed when I first 

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Got here, because it's kind 

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Of like, wow, it is so flat. It doesn't spring to life in that way. 

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
But 

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
You're right. I mean, again, all of the details are very specific. 

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
I think 

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
You could totally make a movie though of this. It seems like totally about a person's memory of their childhood and it is also going to dance into that deeply sentimental territory of we didn't have much, but we had each other. That kind of story 

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Is 

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Going to be what you're going to make your 

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Mom giving you again, that stack of flapjacks and yeah, there is something homey and rosy about the memory of what you're getting here and what you're seeing. 

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Yeah. There is something that I'm like, oh, I don't want to make a movie that's just this sort of glorification of, isn't it great to be poor or something. That's the thing that I'm sort of like, that would be the thing I don't want to make. There is a certain type of weird, I feel like Christmas movies dip into that a lot too. 

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Yes, they do. 

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
And I think it's just a lot of Christmas movies ultimately end up when you're kind of talking about the commercialization and presents and stuff and gifts and everything. So it all ends up being connected with money in some weird way, and it's always there in the background, even if it's not so, I mean, you have Scrooge visiting Crochet's family and that's a very classic, I'm going to go see the poor people and how much richer they are than me and learn from them, so 

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Alright, I've got it. 

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Okay. 

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
And it's playing off of some of what you just said, but it's going into a different, and hopefully interesting and bizarre place now that we're talking this through. I'm kind of thinking about Octavia Butler 

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
And 

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Sort of the idea of her stories of moving through time. And as I keep looking at this young man at the center of the story, I'm kind of like, well, what if I'm that young man and you take TT Stern Enzy from 2019 and have me go back to Christmas morning breakfast in 1945. You're 

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Going to Quantum leap into the painting. 

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
I am going to quantum leap into this painting. 

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Yes, yes. 

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
And it's an experience that is obviously not my own, but maybe he is a descendant of mine, a recent descendant, and it's kind of like, okay, well, I've heard stories about this young man and yeah, I'm in his life in this moment and trying to appreciate again, only these details that we have, but yet knowing that, yeah, again, you don't want to glorify 

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
That, but 

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Trying to figure out, okay, what does this really mean to me, again, I'm looking at it now, but what would it mean if I found myself in that scene with all that around? Would it inspire some sense of the holiday spirit in the season in me, or would it make me even more cynical because I would be able to look at it and think, well, gosh, yeah, we don't have all of these things or whatever I would imagine that the season is supposed to give and would it make me angry? 

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
Would it make 

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Me even more frustrated with my situation? 

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Yeah, I like that though. Then it's not able, I think that that would be a good perspective though, because then you would be bringing the character of you, the character of a person who lives in a different time to this world. So it would not all be rosy necessarily, and you can maybe sidestep some of the risks of being overly sentimental about things. So I think that would be good. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Yeah, 

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
You're going to Jumanji into the jungle, into this painting. 

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
There's something, again, there's a fascinating idea behind, and again, like I said, I do, I love Butler's work in that way because she plays with race and history and what it all means. And again, that notion of being a contemporary black person going back into another period, and again, 1945 would not necessarily be the same as going to 1890 or any other earlier time period, but yeah, there's still going to be issues in 1945. 

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
Totally. Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Yeah. And again, looking like I said at this character and his mother, giving him the pancakes and this morning and that old fashioned stove, and again, that life and what it might mean to live in that time. Yeah, there's something pretty fascinating about that, and it's a story that we don't normally get. 

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Yeah, that was something I was thinking about. This is, in a way, this Christmas story would be actually very unique. On one hand I'm saying, oh, I don't want to do the cliche of Scrooge visiting the poor, but at the same time it would be unique because that's Scrooge's story always. It's never actually crochet's story. It's never actually from that perspective, from the start. And so to actually have that would be a little different 

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
To be this young man in this particular story. Like I said, at some point he's going to get up after he knocks off those pancakes, which I keep going back to those pancakes. Maybe I need to have brunch or something right now. 

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
I know I was saying I was hungry before and now keep talking about them. 

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
But yeah, there's obviously something about his life and this holiday season that is, yeah, what is he going to do? Is he going to finish breakfast and then go open his gifts? Are there going to be other people who are going to come into his life and who are those other people that are going to come in and how is he going to interact with them? What's the world going to be outside of this one very flat 

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Scene? So what does the, what is the lesson that future TT has to learn by quantum leaping into the story? And then what is the lesson he will learn? Both how does he get out of the situation, 

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Which that's always the curious part. And I don't know that I necessarily need to figure out how and why you get back. Because again, going back to Octavia Butler, she never necessarily felt the need to explain those things. She would just move, there could be stress or crisis or whatever, but something would happen and would sort of shock you back to the place where you were and you might not immediately understand the lesson that you just learned from that setting and that scene, you might have to go back a couple of times. So maybe, who knows? Maybe the scene that we are laying out for this film right now, it's not even the first time that I've been back to 1945. 

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Okay, 

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Maybe I was there a week before. 

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
So you kind of come back and forth, 

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
You kind of keep moving and there these lessons that you're learning and you're trying to figure out how and what the time period is supposed to be teaching you. 

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
That's nice. I like that. Having running parallels between two stories instead of just like you're there. I couldn't get the rules of quantum leap out of my head. So in my mind it was the idea of I've learned the meaning of Christmas. Why am I still here? And then realizing there's something else. 

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Oh, it's not Christmas that I'm here 

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
For the meaning of I actually, that wasn't the problem. I had this all, it was not just learning the meaning of Christmas, baby. I need to learn 

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
The meaning of 

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
New Year's Eve and I've just 

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Got to be here longer. Oh no, it's not that either. Okay. I've been to New Year's Eve and I'm still here. 

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
I'm going to learn the meaning of President's Day. Alright. 

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Okay, great. I've learned now. Thank you. 

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
I'm ready to go 

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
Home. 

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
True meaning. Alright, well, any other last thoughts? 

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
No, other than the fact that I honestly was a little concerned about this last one, but I feel like this may have been, I think they're all interesting in their own ways, all of the films that we've developed along the way. But I find that this one was surprising. 

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Yeah. I'm glad you brought in a new angle on it. I was worried it would just be oozy drippy sentimentality, which is not very interesting to me. 

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
And it was important to kind of stay away from that. 

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
But I like that idea of bringing in a contemporary perspective on something would change everything of how you looked at things too. I think even as a viewer you would suddenly see things with slightly different eyes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being my guest today. Well, 

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Thank you. 

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Sure it. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions include the Levy, a photographer in the American South, women breaking boundaries and treasures of the Spanish world. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. I'm going to be on vacation for a few weeks, so Art Palace will also take a little break. We will be back with a new episode on January 20th. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is FRA Music How By Balala. And as always, please rate and review us to help others find the show. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.