Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace. Speaker 2 (00:03): Okay, so lemme ask you this question. What is the difference between death and dying? Speaker 1 (00:20): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Cole and Perry, dual certified Tologist and public health educator. Speaker 2 (00:47): The first question I always get asked is they're like, well, what do you do? And I'm like, I'm a tologist, and what is that exactly? So tology is a $10 word I always say, and it is the study of death and dying. And then usually people are like, oh, like Thanos, which yeah, yeah, it comes from the same place. So Thanatology is a field. So this what's really interesting about the field, as long as humans have been living, we have been dying. So humans have been living with and around death forever. Yet thanatology, that word was coined in 1905. So it's a really young field, which is, and part of that is because we are a very death avoidant culture and society, humans, we are built to survive. So we don't want to think about death, but we have avoided it so successfully for millennia that we were reluctant in creating what would happen if we studied this and what can we learn in studying death and dying about life. And so that's what I'm interested in. That's what my whole life revolves around. Speaker 1 (02:00): And what was the path that took you there? Speaker 2 (02:02): So at no point when I was a kid was I like what I want to do. I want to grow up to deal with death. Speaker 1 (02:10): That Speaker 2 (02:10): Never, ever occurred. I wanted to be a singer. I had very early signs of my extreme extroversion. I love being around people. I love talking to people. I never meet a stranger. And I just, it found me, and that's something that you'll probably hear a lot of people who work in death and dying, say, there's two pathways that I find people take to get here. One is they have a serious traumatic loss and they're like, this significant loss opened this whole world I want to work with at the rest of my life. Or you have people like me who I've had loss in my life. Some people say that I've had a lot of loss, but that never motivated me to be in this work. What at this point, it's what I would call, it's my calling and I have a very clear mission. My goal by the time that I die is I want to improve the way that we deal with death and dying in my lifetime in the United States. That is what I'm trying to do. Speaker 1 (03:12): So I would imagine there's a difference between going into Thanatology versus going into funeral work, or are they related in some way? Speaker 2 (03:23): Yeah. Okay. So lemme ask you this question. What is the difference between death and dying? Speaker 1 (03:29): To me, death is a very big abstract idea and dying is an action and is a very real physical, it is happening in the present. Speaker 2 (03:39): Yeah. Okay. Then my next question for you is when do we start dying? Speaker 1 (03:45): The middle. You're born? Speaker 2 (03:46): Yeah. Okay. So that's a correct answer. Some people also, I had somebody tell me that you start dying in about your mid thirties. I'm in my mid thirties now, and I was like, oh, okay. It's also a theory or an idea that you start dying when your mother is in utero because the little egg that became you is in there. So technically you've been alive that long, but technically also haven't even been dying that long. So death and dying are different areas, and there are people who work with end of life or pH natology or anything in there that are interested in one area more than the other. Death is usually considered the end of the life cycle for any living thing, and that is where in the US in particular, funeral service comes into play. So you're a funeral director if you like dealing with the death side of things. You show up on the scene when somebody has died and then you deal with the dead person and the loved ones. Speaker 1 (04:46): Right Speaker 2 (04:47): Now if you're working in dying, you might work in hospice, you might work in palliative care. If you're a physician, you might work in oncology. So you confront that a lot. You might be a public health educator. I'm also a death companion. Death companioning is older than dirt. It predates death care and healthcare systems because as long as we've had societies, there have always been people in the community that you would be like, oh my God, somebody died. Who do we call? There's always been someone in every group that has known what to do with that, and that's called companioning. And so I serve in that area as well. Death companioning is non-medical and non-judgmental support through a loss. You might also hear people being called death doulas or death midwives. Those are subspecialties within the umbrella of death companioning. So does that clear up a little bit like the difference between death and dying and where people might fall on the spectrum professionally? Speaker 1 (05:47): Yeah, no, and I think I sort of already understood it, but I just wanted to make sure I clarified that Speaker 2 (05:53): For Speaker 1 (05:53): Folks too Speaker 2 (05:54): Who are listening Speaker 1 (05:55): Necessarily, you're not doing funeral work. Speaker 2 (05:58): That's not, although, so I'm a little different. Speaker 2 (06:02): Honestly. Most people who are in ology, they tend to just have a really specific area. But I am a certified crematory operator. I've cremated people. I also have consulted with death care businesses, funeral homes, cemeteries, crematories and suppliers have been my clients for over 10 years. And they hire me to help them understand what's going on with their business because I understand how humans think about and deal with death, and then what makes them make certain decisions about what funeral home to choose or not choose. And so I have clients all over the world now in death and dying. I also have been brought in to speak. So I spoke for the Latin American Death Care Association in Guatemala a couple years ago, and there were people there from all over the world, and my talk was simultaneously being translated into three languages. So I do deal. And then as a death companion, I also actively deal with funeral traditions, but I work alongside the licensed funeral director. So in December I was working with a family, I led the committal service, I helped bury the person. So I am involved with the whole spectrum of dying to death. Speaker 1 (07:24): You mentioned the Latin American Death Care Association. Do you think that there is a sort of universal way that cultures deal with death, or is it very cultural and depends on where you are? Speaker 2 (07:35): No. So just for an example, when I spoke to the Latin American Death Care Association, part of why I was brought in was because I had the American experience with all these clients. So in some countries in Latin America, death care, like funeral services were government provided. It was not open for somebody to start a funeral home. So in the US that's what we do. It's a business opportunity. You can start a funeral home, you can set your own prices. That's not the norm in other countries around the world. Also, the way that we pay for funeral services in the US is not the same as elsewhere. There are some countries where it's normal for families to pay a flat fee per month to a funeral provider, funeral service provider, and then if anybody in that family dies, they call that provider. But because paying monthly, it just covers anybody in the family. Speaker 1 (08:34): Wow. Speaker 2 (08:36): So something that I always try to tell Americans is just let's zoom out on ourselves and understand that the way that we do things are not necessarily the way other people do things. Neither is right or wrong, but we all die. But we all avoid it in different ways, so to speak. Speaker 1 (08:55): Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. I am really interested in different ways. People do deal with death, and my husband is from Brazil and they use at least where he grew up, the burial system is kind of similar to what you see in New Orleans and the kind of French style of, well, you Speaker 2 (09:18): Should describe it better, where the graves are above ground. Speaker 1 (09:20): Yes. Speaker 2 (09:21): And in New Orleans we do that because the water table is so high. Speaker 1 (09:25): Okay, so now I'm going to just say I went on multiple tours in New Orleans and they told me that's not true. Speaker 2 (09:33): Well, Speaker 1 (09:34): That it's more about French tradition than necessarily, Speaker 2 (09:36): But Speaker 1 (09:37): I'm sure it's both are beneficial, Speaker 2 (09:38): But sometimes the tradition comes from the result of the geography. Speaker 1 (09:42): Do Speaker 2 (09:42): You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (09:43): Because a unique challenge, so I also serve on the board of two cemeteries here in Cincinnati. One is Lyn Grove Cemetery in Covington, Kentucky. It's 175 years old, 22,000 people are entered there. And then the other is Heritage Acres. Acres, which is a brand new cemetery like buying brand new land and then turning it in. And one of the things that we have to think about is where the water table is, because when you dig a grave, and let's say you dig the grave the day before, if the water table's up, the grave can get full of water. And that can be upsetting to some people. So when you are living in a river valley like we are down in New Orleans, especially in certain parts of New Orleans, those graves can just fill right up. So building the mausoleums on top of the ground allows you to not be plunging people into water, and it also has to do with soil stability and all that kind of stuff. But to your point, both are right, I guess is what I would Speaker 1 (10:43): Say. Speaker 2 (10:43): So yeah. Well, Speaker 1 (10:45): One of the things, I guess why I even brought that up though was that that whole system involves this step of removing the body. Speaker 2 (10:54): It's renting the Speaker 1 (10:55): Space, Speaker 2 (10:56): And that's really normal in other parts of the world that the idea is that, okay, coal dies, and let's say my husband gets me a plot for five years, and then if five years comes up, let's say he can't afford it, they're getting me out of there and somebody else is going to take that space. Now that is normal for a lot of other parts of the world, and when they hear what we do in the us, the idea that somebody who died 1700 years ago still has the quote rights to that land to take up that land, that's crazy to other people. But I mean, think about it, Speaker 1 (11:32): It's crazy. Speaker 2 (11:33): I mean, I can see both sides of that spectrum for sure. Speaker 1 (11:37): No, I remember actually when I was doing those tours in New Orleans of the cemeteries and thinking they're describing the system, and I was like, this makes a lot of sense. I kind of like its efficiency of space management and like, oh, well, this whole tomb is for a family basically, and after they get taken out and their remains get kind of put into the bottom with everybody else, and I was like, huh, that makes a lot of sense. I like that. Speaker 2 (12:05): Yeah, yeah, so it's interesting. Speaker 1 (12:07): Yeah. Yeah. So I was going to ask you too, you brought up Death Companioning earlier, and I was kind of curious about is there a certain type of person that makes a good death companion or a certain sort of attribute a person should have? Or is it really open, do you think? Speaker 2 (12:27): So what's interesting about this is it's considered an emerging field, but I have a problem with that because as long as we've been dying, there've been people in the community that have been helping you get through it, helping you deal with it. For example, my mom's side of the family is Roman Catholic, and so when someone dies and her family, who do they call first? The priest Speaker 2 (12:48): Let the priest know. Then the priest is like, okay, cool. I'm going to get the funeral together. I'm going to let the bereavement committee know they're going to bring food by for you guys for the next two weeks. That's companioning. Now, priests and clergy are death companioning through a spiritual based pathway, but there's other forms. So people who become death companions are literally everybody. There's no one type. Part of that is because you can be a death companion and focus on, usually diagnosis is considered the starting point of the spectrum. Let's say that I find out that I have stage four cancer today. I might be like, wow, I'm not prepared for this, so I'm going to reach out to a local person in my community who does this. They've done this before. They are going to provide me non-medical support, non-judgmental support. They don't care what my faith traditions are or not. Speaker 2 (13:38): And they're going to be like, okay, Cole, here are things that you probably need to do. And then they're going to be like, they're able to give me referrals. So if I'm like, man, I don't have a will, they're going to be like, I can refer you to somebody located in your neighborhood that can help you with that. They companion me along the loss. So you could be somebody who likes to do what we might call legacy planning or funeral planning. Then when you start dying, there's different phases there. Even all the way up through active death, there are doulas who have specific training to be able to know what that looks like. They're okay with being around people who are dying, and they can be that supportive element in the room that makes the rest of the family and friends also be okay with it. Speaker 2 (14:24): Then you have people that have training with the death aspect, so they can help with home vigils, washing and preparing the body. They might also be licensed funeral directors so they can start helping with the care before the person goes to the funeral home. Then there are people who only deal with funerals, and then there are even certain death companions who deal with spiritual aspects long after the person dies. There are some religious traditions where you say prayers in certain or make offerings for certain periods of weeks and days afterwards. There are people who will companion others through that. So who does this? Right? Really anybody. I have two online certification programs that people take with me, and then you become certified as a death companion or certified in Thanatology in the death Companioning. I have people who are 19 years old all the way up to in their sixties, and I have people from rural areas in the US all the way to people who have never had a death and work in completely unrelated fields. And why is that? It's because we have empathy. It's because we've all had a worst day. We've all had a loss. And once you experience a loss, oftentimes you know what it feels like to not be supported and to not have people there. And so many people find that they have an interest and well, what can I do to serve my community in this way? And that's why I can take all these different forms along that whole spectrum of care. Speaker 1 (15:50): Would you tell us a little bit about your podcasts Speaker 2 (15:53): Too? Speaker 1 (15:54): And just, I know you have a couple, right? Speaker 2 (15:56): Yes, I have two, and my husband does the production work. So it's kind of cool for the two of us to get to work on these together. Actually, my husband and I, when we met, I was 18 and we met at the radio station at the college. So we have been, and then we had a morning show. So we've done this Speaker 1 (16:13): Married with microphones. Speaker 2 (16:14): Yes, yes. So the first podcast is called Life, death and Tarot. There'll be a total of 108 episodes, and we're up in the forties. That podcast has two different episode styles and they alternate. So one week there is an interview via a tarot card reading three cards, tarot cards. They're 78 in the deck. They're not magical, they're not mystical. They don't tell the future. And the 78 cards each represent different themes and patterns that are common in a typical human life. And so when you flip a card, it's an opportunity for introspection because it might be like, Hey, what kinds of issues are you having with duality in your life right now? Speaker 2 (16:57): And then it gives you a chance to check in. So I have found in my work with death and dying over the years, that tarot cards have been a really nice way to think really deeply in a way that isn't scary, in a way that isn't necessarily connected to a religious tradition. And so I model that because listen to some of my guests who talk about very serious things that have happened in their lives, and we're able to demonstrate how you can be around uncomfortable conversations, then it'd be totally fine. And then the alternating weeks are what are called mortis, and that's where I share little tidbits and thoughts that come from my work in Thanatology. Speaker 1 (17:31): Yeah. I saw on your website you mentioned that you don't necessarily believe in the magic of tarot in maybe the way most people think of it. Speaker 2 (17:41): Yeah. Like media or movies depict it. Speaker 1 (17:43): That Speaker 2 (17:43): Has never been my Speaker 1 (17:44): Experience, that it is a way of just opening up a conversation and that those are enlightening, that it's not so much about predicting the future, but about introspection Speaker 2 (17:56): And becoming more present and mindful. So for example, tarot cards are full of symbolism. There are people who will read tarot cards and they only look at the plants that show up and tell you what that means. So for example, if I would pull a card for you, and there are tulips, I might say, Russell, when those tulips start popping up around the art museum, pay attention to changes in your life. And what that's going to do is every time you see a tulip, it's going to ground you and you're going to be like, Hey, what do I have planned today? These are in bloom. And it's a way that it actually helps you become more present. Speaker 1 (18:28): So Speaker 2 (18:28): Yeah, I know. I love it. I'm so excited about that podcast and kind of teaching people that. Speaker 1 (18:34): Well, and I think, I mean, that's really connected with art too. I mean, I think the way we do that already with images and things, I mean, I think that's what we hope art does, that we hope that you look at something and it sort of makes you look inside a little bit more. And that sort of stopping is important to it. And Speaker 2 (18:54): I'm sure you have patrons that have particular paintings or pieces here that they just are so called to. And sometimes there's symbolism that's attached there. They might be like, this plant is in there, or this blue plate, and my grandmother had a blue plate. And that's the same mechanism there. It creates meaning. And when people have more meaning in their lives, they have higher levels of day-to-day happiness and less levels of depression type symptoms. Speaker 1 (19:22): And then your other podcast Speaker 2 (19:23): Is called the American Theologist. The trailer episode is up now and then the first season, the what's coming is published. It's on my website, american theologist.com. But I haven't published those episodes yet, Speaker 1 (19:36): So Speaker 2 (19:36): I'm probably going to do that over the summer. Speaker 1 (19:38): Well, I thought if you would like, we could go look at some art in the galleries now. Speaker 2 (19:42): I would love that. Yes. Speaker 1 (19:44): Awesome. Well, normally we look at one piece, but I couldn't decide today Speaker 2 (19:49): Because we Speaker 1 (19:49): Have multiple, I mean, we could probably spend a whole day looking at things, but I want to try to keep it a little bit tighter. So I think we should look at two pieces, unless we just get really moved and can't help ourselves, but talk about something else. But so I have two pieces that I think you will be interested in. Speaker 2 (20:07): Okay, I'm ready. Speaker 1 (20:08): Great. So yeah, we are not in the galleries. Speaker 2 (20:22): Nope. But we just were, I promise. We Speaker 1 (20:25): Just were. Yeah, they were doing construction and de-install an exhibition. So there were really loud drills that would not have been able to record over top of. Speaker 2 (20:36): And it was really cool to be able to see, because I've been to the art museum before, but during business hours and to be walking through the gallery space with lights off and things covered up. And then I never thought, when does the work happen? You know what I mean? So it was kind of cool to get a behind the scenes Speaker 1 (20:53): Of that. Yeah, that's why I was telling you, I'm like, I can't be too angry at them because they're doing the exact same thing I'm doing, which is saying, okay, this is our time. We're closed. Let's get out there and do something where the bubble's not here. So yeah, all of that kind of work has to happen either on a Monday when we're totally closed and they've got this whole day to do it, or very early in the morning before we open. So it's like usually they're doing most of that work and sometimes they do construction while we're open, but we try to minimize that as much as possible because there is also the idea of the museum as this kind of sacred space. There's a lot of similarities between museums and churches and certain ways, and even just the expectations people have of them and their experiences in them. So we try to not do too much construction unless absolutely necessary when we're open. So anyway, we stopped and we looked at two pieces. And the first one, I don't know, did you have any guesses that we were going to look at this or did you know where? Speaker 2 (21:53): Well, honestly, I thought that I was going to see paintings. Speaker 1 (21:57): Oh, okay. Speaker 2 (21:58): Death is something that is often depicted. Speaker 1 (22:00): There are definitely ones we could have gone to that's a Speaker 2 (22:02): Top hit. Speaker 1 (22:03): Yeah, I mean, actually I picked these, the two we did look at, because I think there's a lot of similarities in them too. But yeah, no, I was thinking about that when we were just sort of, when I was saying, oh, we probably, I could come up with a whole tour of things to look at, that would've been perfect. So yeah, there's plenty of paintings that deal with that. But yeah, we started in the ancient art gallery, and I want to say that's Gallery 1 0 1, and we started looking at the mummy of an adult male. So this is to me, always a really weird thing that is in an art museum almost because it is literally a body. Speaker 2 (22:45): Yep. It's a human, it's a person. Speaker 1 (22:47): And that is so bananas. I still kind of can't get over how weird it is that we have this on display. And one of the things though I do like that we have, and I noticed you were kind of looking at it, is we have this picture of the x-ray of the mummy right next to it. And I feel like that sort of freaks people out more than the mummy itself. Speaker 2 (23:15): Yeah, because it makes it confront that you're similar on the inside there and like, oh man, that makes it real. Speaker 1 (23:22): Totally Speaker 2 (23:23): Think about kids. I remember when I was a kid and you learned about the mummies and you're like, this is the coolest thing ever. And then they come to the museum and you get to see a real mummy. But in the us, let's say that grandpa is dead, they're not excited to see dead grandpa, right? No, but man, let's go see a 2000 year old dead man in a museum. It's really not that different. But the idea of there's this magic behind, oh, it's a mummy. And that makes it not scary because I think there's the layers of how the mummy is treated and wrapped and the symbolism that's layered on top. So it makes us to feel more separate from death, and that's why it's cooler and more interesting. And nobody bats an eye. Nobody really is. I think a lot of people see mummies in museums and stuff, and they don't really realize that the remains are in there. Speaker 1 (24:19): Think maybe some people don't. I was going to say actually, I do actually think there is still a little bit of unease with it, but it is packaged in a way Speaker 2 (24:31): You, you're like, but this is okay. This is an okay Speaker 1 (24:35): Instance. There is something about it. Maybe it is just sort of the tradition of a mummy is a thing you see in a museum. So I don't know if that's part of it, but I definitely would say there is when kids see it, there are some who are probably like, whoa, this is so cool. And then there are some who are like, wait a minute. There is definitely a little bit of fear that I see on people's faces sometimes, especially kids, and they are both attracted and repelled by it at the same time on that level. And it's kind of funny because I've noticed docents who give tours sort of play up that creepy factor as well with them, so they're aware of it and they will sort of lean into the spookiness of it with the kids sometimes and sort of wield that power over them for a second. And it's really fascinating to watch. Speaker 2 (25:37): Okay. So what's interesting about what you guys have here in the collection, and when you were actually staring at the mummy in the case, there's all these artifacts that are laid over top of the x-ray xray, so you can see where the symbols were placed. So if we want to talk a little bit more about tarot for example, that's another parallel to how important symbolism is to being a human. That's very much part of being a person, Speaker 2 (26:01): And it's been that way forever. So some of the artifacts that were placed inside the body cavity, there's a two finger amulet that was over the left abdomen that was used to close the incision. It's two fingers. It's a representation of fingers. Hands have long been an important symbol. They're also, they show up in tarot cards. There's entire tarot cards that just have a hand that's holding a symbol, hand symbols often of magnify the whatever else is being represented there. And it connects us to our humanity. There's also a frog. The frog amulet ensures rebirth. And there's a certain type of tarot deck that also has a frog that appears in it, and it's associated with that youthfulness, which is connected to rebirth. So why the symbolism thing? So I'm referenced this earlier, but one of the things that I'm really interested in is that the more meaning you have in life, the more of a sense of meaning. And that's a very individual thing. For some people, their greatest sense of meaning comes through a religious tradition. Speaker 1 (27:13): For Speaker 2 (27:13): Others not at all. That doesn't even enter the picture. And that's fine. But the more meaning we have, it kind of is like a security blanket. We feel better about the world and we feel better about the afterlife, and we feel better about that. Things are not as chaotic symbols are often the vehicle that we have to understand and be associated with. Meaning Speaker 1 (27:34): To Speaker 2 (27:34): The point that if this person, it was mummified, and they were like, oh my God, we forgot the frog. There's so much meaning in that they'd be like, oh my God, they're not going to be reborn or it's going to be harder for them because we have put so much into the meaning of the symbol. And the other thing of note is the frog. That is a creature that is separate from a human that lives on the earth and we cohabitate with, but we have chosen it as this representation in our own worlds to serve us. Right? Speaker 2 (28:08): There are no frogs that are like, we need to put the image of coal in with our ancestors. They don't do that with humans. It's totally like a human experience. So anyway, when I look at the mummy, the symbol aspect is what I notice because I understand the importance of meaning. That's what makes us feel okay about when someone dies because it's hard when you confront a loss and you feel like, what was the point? Why did this happen? We're left with these unanswerable why questions? But if we know that we put the frog in there so that person can be reborn, that gives us a sense of resolution. Speaker 1 (28:47): I was just thinking about I, I'm not sure if I'm mixing up the mummy here or the mummy case that we have nearby, Speaker 2 (28:54): But Speaker 1 (28:55): One of the things too, I think that connects with that idea of meaning and in the afterlife from the sort of Egyptian standpoint, is that it seems like it's so structured. There is such an order to it, and that the process of preparing the body is considered a part. It sort of seamlessly flows into what happens after you're dead. Speaker 2 (29:19): It's a bridge. Speaker 1 (29:21): And the images sort of depict that too, where it's like, well, here's the body getting prepared and here's what happens next. And it takes you, it walks you through it step by step of like, okay, here's the sort of nuts and bolts body preparation, and now here it transfers sort of fluidly into the more spiritual of that and the religious side of that. And here is this God judging the soul or whatever these different processes that happen. Speaker 2 (29:51): Humans want to be sure. And so one of the ways that we find ways to be sure when it comes to death is these traditions and rituals and symbolism. And we have done this across cultures, across time, across countries. Everybody does this in some way. Speaker 2 (30:10): And I think with Egypt and mummies and stuff that is so well known, and I think we often forget or don't notice how we're still doing this on our own ways. Today I teach at two mortuary colleges. I teach at Dallas Institute funeral service out of Dallas, and then Mider College of Funeral Service out of Louisville. And there's only 10 standalone mortuary colleges in the US right now. So my mortuary students, one of the assignments is I ask them, what is an important symbol to your family? Just what is it? And some people have a hard time with that. They've never been asked that, but then they'll be like, oh my gosh. I have one student who talked about how her grandfather came to the US from Mexico. He planted pecan trees. And ever since then, he's always had pecans in his pocket and gives out pecans. Speaker 2 (31:00): And now the family tends these trees. And so that pecan is a really important symbol to that family dimes. This is a common thing in the Cincinnati area because of our German tradition, there's this belief that after your loved ones die and you find a dime, it's your loved one checking in. So what we see in funeral service is sometimes these symbols show up at the funeral, like the pecan gentlemen, for example, there's probably going to be pecans at his funeral service as a snack or handed out or tree seedlings. And so we do have that same mechanism today. It's just less glitzy and glammy as Egypt and mummies. So Speaker 1 (31:42): Do Speaker 2 (31:42): You have a symbol, just a symbol that's important to you even? Speaker 1 (31:46): Oh, geez, I don't know. That's really tricky. Yeah. Speaker 2 (31:50): Yeah. Speaker 1 (31:51): I mean, it definitely couldn't come up with one right off the top of my head probably. Speaker 2 (31:54): It's a good question to ask people or to even think about because that's what, as a death companion, when people are trying to come to terms with the fact that they're going to die and what do they want for their funerals, one of the best questions to ask is what are the important symbols or patterns that have been in your life, because that's something that they can ensure is represented after they're dead that will carry on their memory. Speaker 1 (32:16): After the Mummy, we walked over to Gallery one 10 and the Cincinnati wing, and we looked at the memorial to Elizabeth Boot, and you seemed pretty excited right away when you saw this. You seemed at least familiar with it. I think you had seen it before. Speaker 2 (32:32): Yes, yes. And I love Frank. I live in Covington. I live in main STRs. We have a bronze statue there of him. And I live in a house that was built in the 1860s and up on my third floor, when I look out the window, especially in winter, I feel like I'm looking at a Frank Duveneck painting. Oh, Speaker 1 (32:51): Yeah. Speaker 2 (32:52): So he's a real bro for me. I really like him. And anyway, the piece that you pulled, it's beautiful. It's the effigy of his wife that he's so devoutly loved. So what I thought was so awesome about this, so first of all, there's a big plant across her, Speaker 1 (33:12): A Speaker 2 (33:12): Big palm fron. I just completed a fellowship at the Lloyd Library Museum here in Cincinnati, and my research was on Fanna botany. Fanna botany is the study of how we use plants to deal with death and dying interesting and cope with loss. So that was all symbolism focused because a lot of the way that we used plants was what those things represented. Speaker 2 (33:31): So as your little, the placard said that across her body lies a large palm fron to symbolize triumph over death. And palms have a big association with the three Abrahamic faith traditions, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. And so when we see the palm, that tells us a lot about the lineage of the person that's represented and where they ultimately came down from. It was so interesting to me. You have Frank wanted to represent and honor his beloved, and she's covered in this big plant, and it's just amazing. It's right there in front of your face. We do so much with plants when it comes to death and dying, but we don't even really notice it. Now, the other thing that's interesting about Frank Duveneck and this piece, so he was only married to her for two years. She died suddenly, and this was his first sculpture. So he was 42, and then he's like, took on this new thing. One of the most common things that people regret on their death beds is stuff that they did not do. And one of the most common reasons that people didn't do the thing that they wanted to do was because they tell themselves that they're too old. Speaker 2 (34:41): And I think Frank is a great representation of a way to live your life. His wife died devastated, and he wanted to honor her. And so he went whole hog in and created this amazing piece. And he was in his forties Speaker 1 (34:57): When Speaker 2 (34:57): He did that. And Speaker 1 (34:58): He had some help too. We should mention from Clement barn horn, who is Speaker 2 (35:04): Done it before, a Speaker 1 (35:04): Very established sculptor. So he got some help from somebody who knew the ropes. But yeah, it's kind of great to take such an about face and to be like, no, no, we're going to do this Speaker 2 (35:16): And not be afraid to do it. The other thing that, and you guys point this out is Elizabeth's knows. Speaker 1 (35:23): Yeah. Speaker 2 (35:23): Okay. This Speaker 1 (35:24): Is one of my favorite parts of this. Let's Speaker 2 (35:25): Talk about this. Speaker 1 (35:27): We have a drawing, I think, by Louis Ritter that's on the label for this work. And it shows a sketch of Lizzie by Louis appears her Speaker 2 (35:38): Profile, Speaker 1 (35:39): And it appears also to be posthumously drawn. It looks very much like she's already died, and her nose is definitely not the same nose that we have on the sculpture. The nose on the sculpture is much more idealized. And Speaker 2 (35:55): So let's talk about that. So this is kind of, it's beautiful. So her nose in real life was larger, had a hump in it. Speaker 1 (36:04): Yeah, it's got a little bend. And Speaker 2 (36:05): In the sculpture, it's like this beautiful nose where you would go to your plastic surgeon and be like, I want her nose. So good. So why was that decision made? So when we love somebody and then they die, death is the salt of life. So somebody dies. And what happens when you add salt to soup or something? Speaker 1 (36:25): It can bring out the flavor. It brings Speaker 2 (36:26): Out the flavor, it brings out the good flavors, and it brings out the bad flavors. And so when somebody dies, oftentimes for the people who are left behind, our memories instantaneously just get heightened of that person good and bad. Speaker 1 (36:40): The Speaker 2 (36:40): Bad moments with them are maybe bigger than they actually were. So too the same for the good moments. So Frank, he loved her. And the nose thing would be considered like a flaw. Most people in the US would consider a big hump in your nose is not an ideal nose. He gave her that in the afterlife because he loved her. To him, she's probably the most beautiful thing to ever walk on the earth. So this was how he saw her. And some people would say, oh my gosh, that was so wrong. You should not do that. But this and this type of sculpture is not about being accurate. It's about being emotional. Speaker 1 (37:21): It's Speaker 2 (37:22): About representing that emotional feeling and love. And so that's what was, I'm making this up. I didn't talk to Frank about this, but that's a really common thing that we see. And we see this even in modern day. There are people who are commissioning sculptures and engravings for beloved spouses who die and then get these big monuments and stuff built at these big cemeteries. It's still happening today. Speaker 1 (37:46): Well, I think it's also, there's something about, I was reading something recently about just the kind of way a photo of us can be very harsh. Speaker 2 (37:59): We Speaker 1 (37:59): Don't like seeing photos of ourselves a lot, and we Speaker 2 (38:02): Want to look our best. Speaker 1 (38:04): And there can be one way of looking at it that's like the photo is the harsh reality, but a photo isn't harsh reality because we don't see photos. We don't Speaker 2 (38:15): Stop Speaker 1 (38:16): Time in this one particular moment where you're in the middle of saying something and you're, so we don't see in that sort of frozen way of a photograph as well. Speaker 2 (38:26): Yes. Speaker 1 (38:26): So I think you can say, oh, this is inaccurate. But there's also another way of saying no. The way Frank saw her is accurate. Right? Yes. The way he thought of her is another truth that is not simply just, this is what her nose looked like too. Speaker 2 (38:44): Yes. Yes. I mean, if you think about how you see your husband versus how somebody else sees him, if you saw a picture, the imagery that we have of our loved ones in our mind is very different than a photograph in front of Speaker 1 (38:59): Us Speaker 2 (39:00): Because we have that emotional side there, which is real. And when you take a picture or something or this illustration of her from the profile, it lacks that. Speaker 1 (39:11): So one of the things going back to the palm fronds, and something I've always noticed about that piece that I really like is that to me, it feels like a very great representation of a sort of dissolving of physical into spiritual. And that's one of the ways that it uses the fronds actually, is that at the top, where her face is kind of feels very concrete. And then as it goes down, the palms sort of abstractor in a way. And then the palms mixed with this sort of fabric that is covering her also just it dissolves into something that's pretty abstract. And then the way that the fabric actually sort of drapes over the edge of the piece and Speaker 2 (40:00): Tumbles off. Speaker 1 (40:01): Yeah, it's Speaker 2 (40:02): Beautiful. It's living. Speaker 1 (40:04): It's Speaker 2 (40:04): Living. And when I see that, I see the movement of grief and working with death and dying. One of the things that happens to people who have a loss sometimes is we have to realize that our grief is something that will never leave us. And it's something that we have to move throughout our lives with our entire lives. And when you box that grief up or try to keep it sustained in one corner and try to make it inert or still, that's where you tend to have problems. But as long as you're allowing that grief to have movement and freedom to coexist in the space with you, you are going to be able to have a better relationship. And when I see his representation of his wife, I see that it's powerful. I mean, the way that the folds of that fabric are I, and the fact that it's in bronze is crazy. And when I look at that, I see the emotions of loss, of grief of how in your grief, the person you spent your life with just becomes 20 million times more beautiful than, you know what I mean? It's, it's a very emotive piece. And the mummy, I don't have that reaction when I see the Mummy because that stuff is precise. Speaker 2 (41:15): The process there, it's precise. There's specific orders, there's a certain number of days, there's certain number of steps. But what Frank did that was all soul. That was all spirit. Speaker 1 (41:24): And Speaker 2 (41:25): The mummy thing is more like physicality and precision almost. To me, it's very different qualities and representations and components of loss. Speaker 1 (41:34): If you think about the way the mummy is physically, the images are composed. It's very ordered, right? Speaker 2 (41:40): Yes. Even the way that the fabric is wrapped. And then look at Elizabeth or Lizzie, did you call her Lizzie? Speaker 1 (41:47): Yeah. We feel comfortable. We're on, Speaker 2 (41:50): Because I was like, oh, I always called her Elizabeth. Okay. Speaker 1 (41:52): Yeah. Her name is Elizabeth. But we do actually call her Lizzie all the time, Speaker 2 (41:55): Like Frank and Lizzie. Speaker 1 (41:57): I like it. I think that's what he called her. So we just sort of have decided we're on first name terms Speaker 2 (42:02): With Yeah. I love that, Speaker 1 (42:03): Lizzie. Speaker 2 (42:04): I love that. I wonder what they would say about this conversation. Speaker 1 (42:08): Yeah. So yeah, the way that the Egyptians sort of show that it is a very, everything's in sort of strips and bands, and it feels very orderly compared to the sort of loose fluid nature that becomes the memorial to Lizzie. It's so much more loose. Speaker 2 (42:31): And the other thing that's interesting, so the pom fron, for example, that is very ordered, the way that the leaves spike, Speaker 1 (42:37): And Speaker 2 (42:37): Also they end in sharp points, but the way that it's laid across her, I don't come away being look at that sharp, orderly thing. It's natural. Speaker 1 (42:47): It's Speaker 2 (42:47): Beautiful. I Speaker 1 (42:48): Think it's probably also because they kind of radiate while like Speaker 2 (42:52): Sun, Speaker 1 (42:53): While, and again, that has this very kind of spiritual feeling that shape again. And it feels like something coming sort of blossoming out or exploding, or there's a lot of sort of, again, connections I think you can make with the idea of spirits and the spirituality of the piece. So yeah, I think it is another thing though that I think that verticality of it or the sort of orderliness of that is another thing that to me takes it into a place of abstraction as well, where it becomes less about what the thing is, and it just becomes shapes and design. And I'm really interested in that also, just because I can't break away from knowing that this is at the end of the 19th, the end of the 19th century here. And we're getting into that abstraction has started and is moving on, and it's going to carry us on into the 20th century and moving forward. So it's both something that's happening in art, but also it relates so perfectly to what this piece is about. Speaker 2 (43:58): And the other thing that I think is interesting is with a mummy, there's no real personal characteristics, which is part of why I think it doesn't freak a lot of people out. Speaker 1 (44:07): That's true. Speaker 2 (44:07): There's no face, right? Yeah. We don't preserve the face. But with Lizzie, that was the focus. It was this beautiful rhythmic, undulating fabric spilling out around her and her face and her hands, Speaker 1 (44:21): And Speaker 2 (44:21): That's all that we see of her. And with the mummy, there are no hands, there is no face. It is the opposite, almost really, in a way. I think that's really, Speaker 1 (44:33): It's Speaker 2 (44:33): Cool to juxtapose those two pieces. Speaker 1 (44:37): The sort of anonymous nature of the mummy is another thing that makes me so sad though about it. Yeah. Speaker 2 (44:41): Because it's like, who was this person? Speaker 1 (44:44): I think somebody said they know their name from the wrappings and some of the writings, Speaker 2 (44:50): Who were they as a human? Speaker 1 (44:52): And I don't think we'll ever know that. Speaker 2 (44:54): We don't get any ideas of the personality. And I think with what Frank did with Lizzie, you can get a sense for her Speaker 1 (45:03): Because Speaker 2 (45:04): We're seeing her through his eyes. And that's also how we start to know each other as people will be like, Hey, Cole, I want to introduce you to my friend. Let me tell you about 'em. But that's being filtered through the other person's eyes, and I think that's a beautiful way to remember each other. Speaker 1 (45:21): Yeah. I just want to go back really quickly, just to clarify something, the piece, the memorial in the museum is not the real memorial of Lizzie. She's in Italy buried. So there's no bodies in that one. Just over in the Nmy. Good Speaker 2 (45:38): Disclaimer. Yes. Speaker 1 (45:39): Just so people know, I do have people ask that a lot actually, is that they think, oh, there's somebody in here. They kind of approach. I would say actually a lot of people are more creeped out by Lizzie than they are by the Mummy, which is funny because there is no actual body there. And Speaker 2 (45:55): I think it has a relationship to the emotionality. That's what we are afraid of with death, not the idea of it. It's very practical. It's the emotionality of it. That is what we're avoiding, Speaker 1 (46:05): And maybe that it is closer in time to us. And so it looks more like death to us in that way. We recognize, oh, this is a very funerary kind of thing, that you recognize that pretty immediately it translates. The other thing is that piece is not actually bronze. It is plaster that's painted to look like bronze. Speaker 2 (46:27): Okay. Okay. Got Speaker 1 (46:27): It. So it looks like bronze. A lot of people assume Speaker 2 (46:30): Fool me. Speaker 1 (46:30): Yeah. No, I mean it's meant to fool you. But what they did is they made the mold to cast the real one in bronze, which is outside, so it can sustain it. And this was a copy of the actual memorial. So it was just cast in plaster and then painted to look like bronze. But that means it's also incredibly fragile. So Speaker 2 (46:51): Interesting. And you would look at that and think it was the heaviest thing on the face of the earth. Speaker 1 (46:55): Yeah. We have a problem with people touching it, touching it because of that, because it looks so sturdy, but it's not Speaker 2 (47:02): Interesting. Speaker 1 (47:03): We don't want you to touch any of the artwork, Speaker 2 (47:05): But Speaker 1 (47:05): Please don't touch Lizzie. She's very fragile. I just want to say that. Speaker 2 (47:10): Interesting. Speaker 1 (47:11): Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that because it's very convincingly painted. Absolutely. That. But yeah, it's just a plaster cast of the original. Well, any other thoughts? Did you say everything you wanted to say about Lizzie and the Mummy? Speaker 2 (47:26): Yeah, great pick. Speaker 1 (47:29): Okay, good. Speaker 2 (47:29): Seriously, it was really cool to compare that, and I hope people listening think about what they think about that and what did they think about mummies growing up, because I think that's something, especially in America, everyone is taught about Egypt and mummies. I mean, that's like a thing. Speaker 1 (47:46): It is a weird thing. And Speaker 2 (47:48): It's also very specific and actually tiny. Speaker 1 (47:51): Yeah. You Speaker 2 (47:52): Mean Speaker 1 (47:52): In sort of terms of how big of a practice or Speaker 2 (47:55): Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (47:57): I think it's weird. Mean, I'm glad today we're sort of thinking more about how this relates to us. Something I don't think a lot of people do think about when they look at the mummy. And I'm always surprised by that. Speaker 2 (48:10): To Speaker 1 (48:10): Me, it's always, it's easy to sort of look at the mummy and the beliefs of cultures where they sort of have this idea you are going to take on everything from your life into the afterlife. And it's just like this continuation. And there's almost this sort of like, boy, how crazy was that? And then you're like, well, how different is it from your beliefs? What do you Speaker 2 (48:35): Believe? Speaker 1 (48:36): And is it all that different? Speaker 2 (48:38): Where Speaker 1 (48:38): Are the similarities and what are the differences? And even the idea of, I would say most people who believe in an afterlife still think they will exist as essentially the same person Speaker 2 (48:52): In Speaker 1 (48:52): The afterlife. And it's like really? You believe kind of the same thing as the Egyptians minus the pots and pans. Speaker 2 (49:00): You don't get Speaker 1 (49:01): To take your cutlery with you. It's otherwise not all that different. Speaker 2 (49:05): Right, right, exactly. Speaker 1 (49:06): So it's interesting to think about where your beliefs are compared to these beliefs, and that's what I'm really interested in. And I don't know. Yeah. Why were those beliefs important to them at that time, and why did this make their culture the way they, I dunno. Even thinking about something I was talking about a little bit earlier, one of the things, there's a certain point where I realized I try to see things like the Egyptians, when you look at Egyptian art and it looks a little bit odd compared to the way we would depict Speaker 2 (49:46): Reality, Speaker 1 (49:46): Let's say. And one of the things I try to do, and I don't know if I can ever do it, is to imagine what if this is literally how they saw things? Speaker 2 (49:56): What Speaker 1 (49:56): Does this mean to not sort of think of it in the way that we look at it, and it looks odd, but what if that's just how they thought things looked? And the way we depict things doesn't necessarily mean it's the right way. Yes, Speaker 2 (50:12): Yes. Speaker 1 (50:13): Anyway, Speaker 2 (50:13): Definitely a lot to think about. And definitely death and art are deeply intertwined and show up in, I think, more places than people realize. Speaker 1 (50:22): Yeah, we could probably do a whole nother episode with a whole different pieces. So maybe we should do that in the future again. Speaker 2 (50:28): Yeah. Either on October Halloween team. Oh, we should. Speaker 1 (50:30): Yeah. Alright, well thank you so much for being my guest today, Cole, Speaker 2 (50:37): Thank you so much for having me. If anybody wants to find my podcast or my courses or just info, they can find me@americanfantologist.com. Speaker 1 (50:46): Perfect. Well, thanks again. Thanks. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art. General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are no spectators, the Art of Burning Man and Harris 1900 City of Entertainment, which closes May 12th. Join us on Mother's Day Sunday, May 12th at 3:00 PM for a free gallery experience with mom. Explore portraits of mothers and works that deal with motherhood in the collection. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Efron Music by Balal. Hey, got a moment. Why not leave us a nice review or rating on iTunes or wherever you're listening. I'm Russell Leig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.