Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): Art is healing to be able to create something that's valued, that's validated by other people within this community that you thought you could never be a part of. Speaker 1 (00:25): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Speaker 2 (00:31): Here at the Speaker 1 (00:31): Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Erica Yingling, director of Non-Residential Domestic Violence Services, Y W C A, greater Cincinnati. I wanted to give a quick content warning that we do discuss domestic abuse and sexual assault. In this episode. It is like you're competing with the museum here for the longest, Speaker 2 (01:03): Craziest title. Longest. Did you know this about me? Russell, I'm just going to share this. I have a B f A from dap. Speaker 1 (01:10): Sarah was telling me about this and I didn't know that until today actually, and I was just like, oh, awesome. So I didn't know you were all an art person too. Speaker 2 (01:20): Very much so. Which is so interesting because my life took a turn. I have the B F A and in painting, drawing and really drawn to feminist art history, and that's when I discovered women's studies and studies. Then applied for an MA in women's studies afterwards, but still in my thesis, focused on the representation of the Virgin de Guadalupe and feminist and lesbian art history. I guess it was some crazy name like Recuperating Queer Borders, all Speaker 1 (01:50): That Speaker 2 (01:51): Theoretical stuff. Speaker 1 (01:52): And Speaker 2 (01:52): Then my first internship when I got a certification in museum studies from DAP was with Matt Distal at the Contemporary Art Center as his assistant. Speaker 1 (02:03): Oh, okay. Speaker 2 (02:04): Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (02:05): And I've known Matt for years too. Speaker 2 (02:07): Yeah, he was so fun. It was a great experience. And then I had the opportunity to teach, I was teaching at the university already some art history courses for grad students like feminist art history, race and American art, which I think is why Sarah asked me to do the gallery talk because Speaker 1 (02:25): She Speaker 2 (02:25): Said, nobody talks about art the way that you do. I go, well, that was another lifetime ago. Not that it's still not true, but I think I need to, it's like riding a bike, brush up my skills, and I just went to 21 C and saw the futurist female exhibit. So I'm totally rejuvenated Speaker 1 (02:46): My Speaker 2 (02:46): Feminist art history. Speaker 1 (02:49): You've taken a shot of feminist Speaker 2 (02:52): Art. Oh, there's so many great works there. Speaker 1 (02:54): I need to go. I haven't seen that show yet, and I have no excuse. So you enjoyed the C A C show? Speaker 2 (03:01): Yes. The 21 C, I'm Speaker 1 (03:02): Sorry, 21 Speaker 2 (03:03): C. The Speaker 1 (03:04): 21 C show. Speaker 2 (03:04): There was a show at the C A C that I wanted to go see now. It just ended though. The Speaker 1 (03:08): Swoon Show. Speaker 2 (03:09): Yes. Speaker 1 (03:09): Yeah, it was great. I did go to that. Speaker 2 (03:11): Yeah. Well, my daughter, Edie was, she goes to a great school, mercy Montessori, and they have visionaries and voices, I think I'm saying that correctly. They come into the school and they have a great art program, and she was talking about the Spoon Show. We have to go see it, and of course we missed it, just not enough time. But the 21 C Show, the Future is Female. I mean, there was a Carrie Mae Weems there, there's a Jenny Holzer there that I was just impressed with Speaker 1 (03:40): The Speaker 2 (03:40): Credibility of the artists, Speaker 1 (03:43): The big names. Speaker 2 (03:44): So a lot of that second generation of feminism, but then a lot more contemporary work. Speaker 1 (03:51): So actually we're talking about feminism and talking about these shows. One of the reasons we wanted to have you in is because March is Women's History month, and so we just thought something you're passionate about, you've got this art background, but where has it taken you today? What do you do on a day-to-day? What's got you so busy right now? Speaker 2 (04:16): Well, that's so interesting. I mean, I think the journey into feminist art history is where it began for me, Speaker 1 (04:22): Because Speaker 2 (04:22): I remember sitting in a huge auditorium when I was a young student in dap, and literally I was probably 18 or 19 and I was reading an art history book, 600 pages, one of the quintessential books, and I was like, why are there no women in this book? There were few women artists. Now of course, somebody in 1972 asked that question, Linda Nolin, and why are there no great female artists? So the question certainly was being asked, and I just started exploring into women generated art, obviously the feminist movement of the time. So back then, this was, oh my gosh, 90, I don't know, two or three. So really coming off the crux of the second wave of feminism, we were looking at more equality based representation and getting into typically male dominated history or fields. So I just started exploring that and it really pushed me to get a master's degree in women's studies. Speaker 2 (05:21): And then subsequently, I went on to get two more. But during that time, I started understanding that women who are producing art were really producing work that was about experience. Not that there's one monolithic female experience, but really things that hadn't been addressed before. Looking at representation, looking at objectification of women even within the art field or big art spaces like museums. What did that mean throughout history? And also then litigation of women who had contributed specifically to arts movements. I think about, okay, let's Charlie Harper, everybody knows his work, but do we ever think about Edie Harper? Speaker 2 (06:07): Right? No, most people don't know that he had a wife who produced art that was very similar to his, or even Jackson Pollock and his work that was being produced and how his wife was also kind of negated from the production of that work, in fact, for really creating that whole movement of abstract expressionism. So then looking at the experience of women in art led me down the path of looking at women as experiencing a whole level of violence that their male counterparts and what advocacy routes could I take based on that? So after spending 13 years teaching in the universities aid at uc, and then the last five at Northern Kentucky University, I had the opportunity to begin working for the Y W C A, and that was five years ago. Now, interestingly enough, I always knew I'd go a path down working at a museum, teaching or working in an advocacy space. People are like, what did those have to do with each other? But I think they have a lot. When I had the first opportunity to work for the Y, I really had a hands-on experience of working with people who were going through the things that I was studying or reading about or seeing. So really that's kind of where I am today. Speaker 1 (07:34): Yeah. What does, I guess a typical day for you look like? What do you do? What's sort of the actual work of it? Speaker 2 (07:43): Oh my gosh. So as a director of non-residential domestic violence services, we under our team, I hate saying my because it's not, but it is. I direct the team that serves Hamilton, Claremont Brown and Adams County, and we do a lot of comprehensive intervention coordination. What that means is really comprehensive case management, connecting people in our community who've experienced trauma, domestic violence, sexual assault, to resources to promote safety, to reduce risk, but that are also holistic, that have lasting approaches and that are empowering. So a day-to-day looks incredibly different. I'm involved in a lot of community collaboratives in which people come to the table to look at best practice. What are we doing in our communities? What can we do better? Specifically two that I'm really near and dear to my heart are children exposed to domestic violence work group in Hamilton County, which I co-chair. And then I co-chair the Family Violence Prevention Project. I do a lot of trainings on lethality and homicide risk for women and children who are experiencing violence, children exposed to trauma. I do a lot of curriculum-based intervention strategies for teachers across all ages. Speaker 2 (09:06): So a day-to-day would be a mix of being out in the community, sitting on coordinated community response task force, doing trainings, managing our teams, and then of course, managing what it takes to manage programs. The Y W C A is 150 years old this year. We have a long history of empowering women and eliminating racism in Cincinnati, and so managing those big pieces of budgets of payroll, of all of the stuff it takes to be a director. So that's kind of a day-to-day. No one day is the same, and that's what I really enjoy about it. Speaker 1 (09:47): I'm glad you brought up the YWCA's history because I was just thinking to myself, I was wondering how long this sort of programs for victims of abuse has been around. I wouldn't imagine that's always been the focus or has it been a part of it for about how long? Speaker 2 (10:06): Well, I mean, that's a great question because when the Y W C A began, if you're familiar with the location downtown at 8 98 Walnut, now there's Walnut Towers, which are a series of apartments that are not associated to us, and our admin is in the other four floors on the other side. But when we first began, those were actual apartments for women Speaker 1 (10:26): Who Speaker 2 (10:27): Were coming into the city specifically to work. So women who were single and working during this time period were not really looked highly upon and needed a space in which they could come and be accepted mean. So that's one example. At that point, we were not talking about domestic violence or sexual assault Speaker 2 (10:49): As a country, as communities. And then when you look at the pre-civil rights movements, what started happening, we became very invested in that, the suffrage movement, so women's right to vote. We were in fact the first cafeteria that hosted dining room hours for people of all races in the early 1950s when a lot of places still in Cincinnati were segregated to have open dialogue, community discussions about race relations, and then the focus specifically on violence and how women are impacted, and women, men and children, the majority of victims are female, which is why I tend to use that gender. But it can happen to anyone was really in the late or the mid 1970s when everybody as communities in the second wave of feminism was beginning. We're talking about domestic violence through consciousness raising groups. So our domestic violence is the eighth oldest in the country, and it's still here today in Hamilton County, centrally located and has 67 beds and is almost always at capacity in full. So then we really saw the shift of working with people who had experienced intimate partner violence or sexual assault or kids who were being exposed to those things. Speaker 1 (12:15): Yeah, I guess I had no idea that it's always been such a progressive, I don't know, institute since it's founding, even when you're talking about that idea of housing for women in that case, it's, it's still very kind a progressive idea, I think for its time. At least that's the way I read it, I don't know, to be sort of giving a sort of independence to those women. And what year, about what time would that have been? You're saying about 150 years ago. Speaker 2 (12:45): About 150 years ago. So if we do the math here, oh my gosh, what is that? Speaker 1 (12:49): I know this is like you're asking an art major to Speaker 2 (12:53): 1868 is when the Y W C A began. We were incorporated that specific building, and I'm not going to get the exact date correct, but it was in the late 1880s, early 1890s. So we were housed somewhere before that. And if you think about, I mean, this is pre depression, pre-World War ii, Speaker 2 (13:12): So industrialization times when there was an urban migration into cities for work. But there's also very specific gender roles at that time about the expectations of what it means to be a woman and what it means to be a man. Women were relegated to that kind of private sector, and then men, of course, in the public. So working for women in those fields that are non-traditionally female was really not well accepted. And when you think about art and art production, it aligns with all of these movements. And I think that's one of the great things for me about looking at art, appreciating it, studying it, teaching about it, and trying to incorporate it into what we do today at the Y W C A. That's how I make the connections because I can look at work from a specific time period and align it to that movement in which we were participating in as an agency or something that currently people are experiencing today. Speaker 1 (14:08): Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting the time periods too, just when you're bringing that up because it aligns, it's interesting that it starts right around the same time that the museum started too. So they're like, when you're talking about the late 18 hundreds, the museum, the building opened in 1886 and was founded in 1881. And also the effort of a lot of women too, basically who wanted to start this institution. I mean, it's true. It's like we would not have a museum if it weren't for a lot of women who are passionate about it. So it's interesting how integral women are to the arts especially. I mean, if you look at the founding of the C A C as well, I mean almost every art institute has strong women behind it who are saying, this is important. We need to do this. Speaker 2 (14:58): So my role, I began working at the Y W C A five years ago, not in the position that I'm currently in. I've been a director for three years. So I was doing direct service work when had the opportunity to become a director. There's many things that stick in my mind about joining work, art production into trauma healing that we've had the opportunity to do, and it's been incredible. We at the Y W C A F people don't know, still have the only female, all female women artist gallery in the city of Cincinnati. Speaker 1 (15:34): I did not know that. Speaker 2 (15:35): There you go. It's free to the public. You can come in anytime. Awesome. And it's on the second floor. So we switch out our exhibits on a quarterly basis. And there's always, I mean, these are national, local, regional female artists, and we have a long waiting list for people to women to exhibit their work there. I mean, the themes are always different. It's a beautiful space to work because actually you're within the gallery space Speaker 1 (16:03): On Speaker 2 (16:04): A day-to-day basis. So a couple of years ago, we had the opportunity to work from students at Riverview East and oiler schools, so kind of the east side, west side. And these are, if you don't know about these schools, educational systems in which kids face a lot of adversity based on geographical location, but also poverty level, access to resources. And we had support group services for girls that had been victims of sexual assault and abuse there already in place. And what we were finding when we were going into these schools that a lot of kids had experienced violence and trauma and the exposure of, and a lot of it was in intergenerational. So we had a 10 week art program in which we worked at both schools and we had volunteers working at oiler. I had the opportunity to work with the art teacher at Riverview in which the girls created, along with the national artist, her name's Jacqueline ald, art that would be exhibited in our gallery based on their experience. And Jacqueline creates work that has a monolithic character. Her name's Melanie, and she really is in all of these circumstances that really connote young adolescent girl experience. But our girls, when they were creating their works certainly had more experience related to trauma. And after 10 weeks, were not afraid to show that Speaker 2 (17:32): They came to the Y W C A many times, but they then came and their work was on exhibit for three months with Jacqueline's, and they were part of our gallery opening experience. And I venture to say, and I know this, I see some of them in the community today that this was life changing them, life changing for their stories to be heard, to be validated, and to be empowered through that experience of something that they may never have had the opportunity to do, to create artwork that was on exhibit in a gallery space and to be recognized for it. I mean, still, that was one of the first things that I really pushed for. And we received a small grant from Archway to do that project. So what I try to do with my managers, when we look at holistic community-based healing, we have a program specifically called Project Care that works with individuals with disabilities that are impacted by violence, and that could be cognitive disability, physical or mental health disability. And the reality is a lot of people we serve fall into one of those three categories. So we started doing work with visionaries and voices and our last funding cycle, we run on three years of a funding cycle from the federal government. And we were doing some really great things with them because a lot of the people we were serving were part of their programs. So along with Holly Watson, our project manager thought of ways that we could better incorporate this idea of this holistic community-based art program. Speaker 2 (19:13): So then this is how the universe works, and I hope this isn't too lengthy. I have my daughter who's been coming to the Cincinnati Art Museum summer camps for a few years now, and I see an old student of mine when I taught a class at DAP in feminist art history, Sarah, and we say, oh my gosh, it's so good to see each other again. Let's do lunch. So we sit down. And that's really how the program began. Her and I talked about obviously the past and how great it was to make connections, how much we love the summer camps at the art museum, and then what we could do. And since then, Holly and Sarah have started a community-based art program for people with disabilities that alternates. It's every second Tuesday of the month from six to 8:00 PM and it alternates between being hosted here at the Cincinnati Art Museum or at the Y W C A downtown. Speaker 2 (20:11): I've seen some of the collective projects, I've seen some of the individual projects. I've looked at some of the curriculum that Sarah develops. It's incredible and always has between 15 to 25 people who are attending with disabilities. What they're reporting to us is how amazing this program is for their healing on their journey. It's empowering for them to be part of something that they never thought that they would have the opportunity to do. And Holly and Sarah started it with even having our 15 to the 20 people that we're serving that wanted to be part of this program, come down to the art museum. I mean, they were afraid to come into this space. It can present some feelings for people. I don't know anything about art. What do I do there? And they spent three hours going through the galleries, learning a little bit about art. There's always that component of learning about the art, but then you creating your own piece, Speaker 2 (21:17): Which now some of it's on display in our offices. And then coming up with the Real Film Festival coming up this fall, we just received a grant from Photo Focus, and during that time, we will be one of the gallery walk sites, and this is the greatest, the people who are part of this art program that are part of project care, and these are the people we're serving who've experienced trauma, violence, and have a categorized disability are creating the work right now for our gallery exhibit. Because the Real Film Festival is all about people with disabilities and the production of film associated to those ideas or by people with disabilities. Speaker 1 (22:07): You said that the experience of coming to the museum and having this program is you can see a real effect on it. And I am wondering, as somebody who's like both passionate about art and these issues, why do you think that is? Why do you think it works or why do you think it has an impact? Speaker 2 (22:26): Well, I think of my own experience and one of the first pieces of artwork that I loved was Lavie by Pablo Picasso. And then looking at that work and not only appreciating it aesthetically, which that's easy to do with art, but then learning what it was about. And that gave me so much insight that you as a person can relate to. And that's what's happening with our participants in project care. It's breaking down a lot of barriers, and art is healing. One, it can draw you into somebody else's experience. One, it can just allow you to go somewhere else through the aesthetic appreciation of art. But to be able to create something that's valued, that's validated by other people within this community that you thought you could never be a part of Speaker 1 (23:20): Has Speaker 2 (23:20): So much empowerment value for these community members. And I really think this was something we wanted for a long time, was to have a holistic art-based healing program. And Cincinnati Art Museum has been an incredible partner for that. Speaker 1 (23:37): Well, I think it is time to go look at some art ourselves. If you're ready. Speaker 2 (23:41): I'm ready. Speaker 1 (23:42): Okay. I think you're going to really like what we're going to look at today. Speaker 2 (23:44): Okay, awesome. Speaker 1 (23:57): So this is take two. Take two. We recorded for a few minutes there before realizing that the recorder was actually on standby and not actually recording all the really smart things we say. So if we say anything kind of stupid this time, just know that that one that was lost, Speaker 2 (24:17): It was Speaker 1 (24:18): That this is going to be so much better. It's going to be so much better this time. Okay. I have to remember now everything I said, but I'm not going to try to say it exactly, but we need to hit the big things. Where are we? We are in Gallery two 12 and we are in this special feature photograph exhibition called Multiple Medium Photographs from the Collection. And it's a really cool show. I strongly encourage you guys to come check it out. And there's some really beautiful pieces, all kind of dealing with the idea of photographs and the fact that there are multiple photographs, multiple prints of things, and also these projects that are built up of many parts, which is a lot of the things. So we have this Edward Moy Bridge, 360 view of San Francisco that's made up of multiple photographs, which is really, really awesome. Speaker 1 (25:10): There are different views of the same objects. It's a really cool, really cool exhibition. But one of the things that is my favorite piece in this exhibition is this piece by Z Moholy, which is from her series Hail the Dark Lioness, which are these series of self portraits she's done where she has taken on different personas that are often kind of making the viewer confront stereotypes they might have of black African women specifically. She has also worked really strongly as an advocate for the L G B T community in Africa. And so one of her more famous series that she also has been working on are these portraits of queer women in Africa that are often really kind of raw naked looks at these communities. And they have been controversial too sometimes. Actually, I was reading that a government minister literally walked out of her exhibition saying, this is indecent. Speaker 2 (26:27): Remember those days in Cincinnati with the Mapplethorpe exhibit? Speaker 1 (26:31): Exactly. Speaker 1 (26:33): And so it's really interesting because Africa is actually, South Africa has had anti-discrimination for quite a while, so it was sort of shocking to hear a government official be so bold as just saying that. And another thing is, while they also are very progressive in say, having same-sex marriage, legalizing that really early, they also have had a lot of issues with still intolerance in the culture and a lot of assault, especially directed towards women and lesbian women, trans women who are often the victims of what are called corrective rapes, which is just a horrible idea. And so she's been trying to bring a lot of these ideas to light and to make people confront them with her work as well as just simply discussing them. And a part of it is just, I think, making these things visible. So when we came into the space, what was the sort of first thing you noticed about this piece? Speaker 2 (27:44): Well, one of the first things, and I'm trying to remember all of our incredibly intelligent, Speaker 1 (27:49): So smart, smart Speaker 2 (27:50): Points before about art as activism, and I did have to preface this by saying for me, female artists throughout history, at least the 19th and 20th century when we're looking at the production of art, are about activism. So the first thing, and I feel unfortunate that I will certainly research this her work because it is incredibly powerful, the contrast. And I think the gaze is what hits you when you walk into the gallery space. And not everybody has to know about the male gaze specifically, but for people in art and a female artist in particular, a black female artist from Africa claiming that space first as an artist in a medium now such as photography, that's really been pushed into this kind of pop culture realm. I mean, there's mass production of images everywhere on social media and through our phones and our devices. So really kind of calling into the question of even the medium itself being this type of quote, fine art worthy medium, and her own identity as an artist worthy again of being within a gallery space. So that gaze and the contrast of the whites of the eyes to the darkness of her skin in the image and just that natural, the ways in which she evokes. And Russell said this before about the everyday objects and some of her 365 images of different types of women, African women that she has natural hair in the seventies or eighties that would've been called, I mean, I guess today still on Afro, maybe not her. That's also just the use of another object Speaker 1 (29:41): For her. Yeah, it might be. Yeah, we were saying, I don't know for sure if that's actually her hair. I suspect it's a wig just because in the other pieces I've seen from her, it looks like her hair, at least in those images doesn't look like that. But I am not sure. It just strikes me as maybe the sort of prop she's using almost in this, because most of them seem to have some sort of prop I was telling you before. There's one piece that I really love where she's covered in clothes pins, Speaker 1 (30:11): Her hair is covered in clothes pins. She has them on her ears like earrings. And from a distance, if you just first glance at it, you might think, oh, she's wearing some sort of traditional African garb. And then you look at them and go, oh, wait, no, those are clothespins. And so she's also making you kind of think about why you would assume that, right? Why do you have that assumption? And you become a little implicated and as well, and there's one I remember, she has this, it looks to me like a vacuum cleaner, like the hose part of it wrapped around her. And again, it becomes having this sort of connotation of traditional wear or something that you might see. And so she's playing with those expectations a Speaker 2 (30:55): Lot. And I think that's interesting because when you think about the clothespins or the vacuum cleaner, these are all things that women clean with very Speaker 1 (31:04): Domestic objects, very Speaker 2 (31:05): Domestic. And if you look at the history, I mean, if you look at American history in the history of African-American women or African women when brought over to slavery, that's the roles in which they served. They were in the house, they were servants, they were cleaning. And I think that's still carrying on that generalization and that stereotype. For me though, this image does a little bit something different, only because you were talking about the social activism associated to the L G B T Q movement in South Africa that she participates in or rather tries to raise awareness around. Because I do think, and this is what struck me initially, one, the pose. The pose is very much like a seductress, but without the hair, this figure is incredibly androgynous. So one may be question whether or not what is the identification between male or female. And that in itself is very clear of blurring those lines between how one somebody identifies you in art. Speaker 2 (32:11): The gaze is what allows us as viewers to reaffirm the identity of what we're viewing and then thus objectify it. Women have a long history in art of being objectified in that way, but once we're unable to identify where this image fits, what are the categories of it, I think it blurs those boundaries for us and leaves it. There's a question around it, around gender, around sexual orientation, around identity, which people seem to want to always, when you first meet somebody you're categorizing. And I think people do it on subconscious levels. Where does this person fit? Speaker 1 (32:47): Yeah, when you were talking about that, we were talking about both the gaze and the pose. I think they're kind of interestingly a little bit at odds with each other because I think that the pose has a little bit of the way the shoulders are heads up on her shoulder. It has that sort of seductress kind of thing going on maybe. But then the expression is pretty piercing, right? Yes. Speaker 2 (33:12): It's not Speaker 1 (33:13): Quite that committer look. We often see in art, it's not feeding into that kind of male gaze stuff that maybe you would expect as much, Speaker 2 (33:25): Or perhaps it is. But also revoking the image of I hail the dark lions. We're looking at potentially a group of women that have already reversed those gendered roles and expectations in their own specific region. And I'm not sure of the history of the people she's trying to invoke here. And we don't know this as viewers when we come in, when we're looking at art for somebody off the street, unless we're studying these things and we're immersed in it. This is our first initial reactions, but certainly does have, it reminds me of an old phrase, I'm never going to get it right, but something about when hunters see the white in the eyes of the animals in which they're hunting. Speaker 1 (34:10): Yeah. Well, and that's actually sort of maybe knowing that she's trying to confront stereotypes here. One of the things I was trying to think about, what is she trying to do with this one in particular? And I think one of the stereotypes a lot of people have about, let's just say the southern hemisphere of the globe, basically half the earth is that it's a jungle and it's Speaker 2 (34:37): Uncivilized, Speaker 1 (34:38): Right? It's uncivilized and it's not a major metropolitan city. That's huge. And so knowing that she's working in basically a city, but she's showing this character that she's playing almost, that is sort of blending into the leaves in the background. She's almost indistinguishable from the background. She's become a part of it, and her hair kind of reflects the kind of ripples and the leaves as well. So it's almost like this very, it plays into maybe those ideas of the uncivilized person from the jungle Speaker 2 (35:18): Or the first and third worlds, so to speak. And here I just had a feeling, and it really, as I'm sitting here gazing at this picture and trying to understand a little bit more about the 365 images that were produced, photography, the medium, really invoking the gaze back on the viewer. I'm getting a flashback to Cindy Sherman's work. Speaker 1 (35:45): Oh, definitely. Totally. I think is very much aware of that project too. I think so of the untitled film stills and Speaker 2 (35:56): Yeah, Speaker 1 (35:57): Definitely. Speaker 2 (35:57): Which also played in, when looking at that, when Sherman's work was produced, looking at how white women were objectified, not only in the art world, but trying to claim some status using photography as a medium, as a fine artist, but also looking very specifically at these stereotypes and generalizations of around what it means to be a woman. And I would like to see this work with some of her others. I think getting that bigger picture. Speaker 1 (36:29): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, think that's, it's why it's sort of included in this show is actually sort of this idea that it is a part of this much larger project. And just simply, the sad thing is we've only got the one, right. We'd love to, Speaker 2 (36:43): But it's one, we'd Speaker 1 (36:44): Love to have more, I'm sure. But right now we've only got the one. But it's something we felt was important to make a part of the collection and something we wanted to have as a part of it. Yeah, I think that connection to Cindy Sherman is interesting. I also think, though, it's one of the things that separates her from Sherman is that she's also, she's doing this, which is kind of the Cindy Sherman untitled film stills, but then she's also doing her other portraits, which are almost in kind of a nan golden realm of these really direct, I'm going to photograph my friends and people in this kind of just super realistic way, which those are two really different ideas Speaker 2 (37:30): Because there is an artificiality around Sherman's work and the construction of the space and costume, right? Speaker 1 (37:37): Yeah. So it's a really strange, it's kind of an interesting budding of those two worlds where one is very constructed and then one is very much not constructed. I mean, I've seen a few of some of those images, and they are very, maybe to compare them to say Nan Golden is not quite fair because there were maybe a little more composed. They're not quite as, I don't know. Anytime you look at a Nan Golden photo, you're just like, that room has to smell so bad. It's just always, they're so visceral, and you kind know what the sheets smell like in that room. Everything. It's like, oh, those dishes are so dirty. Everything is just so like, Ugh. You have just walked into somebody's house in a way that makes you a little uncomfortable. Whereas I think the images I've seen are a little more staged still, even though they're portraits, they're somebody sitting. So I think that there is a difference there too. But I think it's cool that she is approaching these things from two different sides and looking at all the different ways you can make photographs as well. Speaker 2 (38:49): Agreed. And it's a quite powerful piece. I'm interested, and not that it has to be explained when viewing art, but how does it fit within the larger exhibit? Does it? Speaker 1 (39:03): Well, it's a really, I think it does if you're going to ask me, but I mean, you're welcome to make mine. I mean, you don't have to listen to me, and I didn't curate it, so I don't, it's not like mine. I'm not a curator. I don't have any skin in the game. I think it's a really interesting idea. The show is about so many different things. And so again, this one I think is about looking at something that we know is a part of a larger project, even if we don't have them. So it's kind of take this in that system. But I think it works for me because every single piece actually approaches this idea in a totally different way. I'll admit I'm a really bad museum visitor in that I almost never read labels. Speaker 2 (39:48): I always read labels. I read labels first. But I really think one of my first interactions at a museum was doing all of that work. I was writing Speaker 1 (40:00): Labels Speaker 2 (40:00): And researching what to write for people who come into an art museum. And I think they're like, what does that mean? A label can give them some sort of direction. Speaker 1 (40:11): Well, and that's what I was about to say, was that this show, I actually read most of the labels Speaker 2 (40:16): Interesting Speaker 1 (40:17): Because of that idea of I would get to a piece and go, well, how does this fit into this show? So I actually think the labels are really important in this show because they helped me out in understanding what was the sort of connection. And so there are a lot of really disparate pieces in the show, and I actually really love that because I really love the sort of puzzle of it to me too, of going like, wait, why is this here? And especially from a distance, I might look at something and go, I don't know if I understand how this fits. And then I'll read and go, oh, okay, I get it. And actually, one of my favorite things about this show is this little, we have a little reading area with these just four books, and I feel like there's plenty of, it's not that uncommon to go see a show and there'll be a sort of little reading nook or something where you're supposed to with supplemental materials that you're supposed to pick up and gaze at. But these are the only time the books have labels. So they actually wrote labels for each book that's included, and they're really good and actually do a really good job of framing the books as a work of art as well. And why, so I actually look at all of these books. Speaker 2 (41:31): Can you pick those books up and read them? Yeah, Speaker 1 (41:32): Yeah. Speaker 2 (41:33): Just so they become accessible then to the person. Yeah, Speaker 1 (41:35): They're just any other kind of gallery copy of a book that you would encounter. But it also makes me feel like there's this extra level of care taken in why that book is here. And it's not just more books on this artist. These are new artists who are represented or new projects that are represented. Yeah, I don't know. It's a really interesting idea to me and this idea of multiples and how that affects the Dwayne Michaels piece over here is about how you can use multiple photographs to create a sense of narrative. So it's like he's using it in the way, almost like of a comic strip that whenever you put images together, it creates time, whereas the Moy Bridge is creating a sense of space. So I don't know. I think it's interesting to me of how it all works. And I kind of like when things are a little not totally tight, and I kind of want to go like, oh, wait, how does this work? What? What's going Speaker 2 (42:34): On? I like the concept of a photograph of evoking memory. And I think that can be an individual memory. And even when we're looking at somebody else's photograph, we can identify with certain aspects of it, but also to understand it can evoke some type of collective memory. Speaker 1 (42:50): So Speaker 2 (42:51): I mean, for me, I've always appreciated photography as a medium to do that because, and then the reproduction and the idea of reproduction and almost endless reproduction. What does that mean for the original in regards to these books after having children and introducing them to museum? I think that this is great because it allows them to know that one art can be accessible. It can be what they perceive as everyday things, but can also get them intrigued to looking at other pieces or something that maybe they relate to or evoke some type of memory in them. And I find it interesting. This is the last thing I'll say about the labels, because I'm a label reader and I love that. I love the historical aspect of art. And for me, it gives just a broader picture. And when the kids come into this space, I'm read the label first Speaker 2 (43:51): Or we read to them because I want them to understand what time period or what piece, where are we looking at? When was this produced and why is it important? Because when you're looking at a very famous work, I'm just going to use a Van Gogh as an example, and then we're coming into looking at more contemporary work, there's a reason there's a difference. They may have though similar messages behind why they're creating, I mean, I'm thinking of just Van Gogh's self-portrait here and looking at this piece, we're looking at very different images, but the reasoning though, potentially has changed, could have some similar meaning for that artist and the reason why they produce that work. Speaker 1 (44:29): Yeah. Yeah. No, I am not the model citizen here when it comes to reading labels. I know I am the bad seed. I should read labels more. And I think part of it is also what you're saying is, oh, you need to read a label so you understand the context. And I think most of the time I kind of walk into a gallery and I'm like, I think I got this. I kind of know the context Speaker 2 (44:56): I already know, Speaker 1 (44:56): Which is terrible because I shouldn't say that, but I'm not like I'm an expert on everything, but it's like I got the big picture, at least here, and then only, and I typically only read a label if I sort of want more, because basically I'm like, I ain't got all day. If you read every label, you would be going through a museum at a snail's pace. Speaker 2 (45:21): That's why people come to the museum over and over and over and over again because you can't possibly take it all in one visit Speaker 1 (45:29): And you shouldn't try to either. I mean, that's definitely not the goal either. I agree. When I visit other museums in other cities, I usually try not to do that. I try not to do the rushed tour. And I don't know if I've talked about this on the show recently, but I was in Rome and I went to the Vatican Museum. It's basically being on a Disneyland ride where you're locked in because there are so many other people there. And all they want to get to is the Sistine Chapel. And the museum is designed in a way that is essentially one linear path to get to the Sistine Chapel. So the whole time you are there, you are just being pushed forward. And there are literally this huge hallway that's two giant connecting hallways that you have to walk through. And it was shoulder to shoulder, Taurus, all pushing, all just like it was a nightmare. That Speaker 2 (46:31): Sounds terrible. I mean, Speaker 1 (46:33): It was horrible because you couldn't stop and you couldn't stop and breathe, let alone read a label. And so you walked away with him was Speaker 2 (46:42): Like, or you'd be trampled. Speaker 1 (46:44): And I just totally left feeling, I have no idea why any of this stuff is here, what's the context for any of it other than the things I already knew about before I walked in the door. So it's like everything I learned about the Sistine Chapel was before or after I was there. I mean, of course, experiencing it was very nice. And being there to see it and actually being in the Sistine Chapel is one of the few places you can actually stop because they have sort of a, okay, here's the move in lane and here's the stopping and looking lane. And so you could actually take your time and look. But boy, it was rough. I much more enjoyed, again, even being in St. Peter's was a much more pleasant experience because I was able to walk where I wanted to walk and go where I wanted to go, and not being shoved around. But at that point, I was almost like, I really wish they had just built a haunted mansion style buggy that I could sit in. At least it would've been a more pleasant experience you were Speaker 2 (47:41): Around. Speaker 1 (47:42): It was already going to be a linear experience. So might as well just build a track through the whole thing and turn my head the way you want me to look. Speaker 2 (47:50): Well, I'm glad that I have that feedback because certainly, I mean, you're going to see such a masterpiece. I wouldn't want to be crowded. Speaker 1 (47:59): I, I don't know if you go just prepare yourself, just be warned. It's rough. Also, my husband is not a museum person, and so Speaker 2 (48:09): I'm sure he loved that. Speaker 1 (48:11): So there was a lot of like, okay, we're in Europe. I am going to go to museums. This is just the reality of this. So it was a bit of constant compromise of like, okay, we're going to do museums no matter what. You know that, so let's deal with it in a way that we can both function. So when we were at the Louvre, I could see you started looking out windows like a dog that's Speaker 2 (48:38): Dying. Speaker 1 (48:39): I'm ready to go outside, just like I'm tired of everything inside of here. So usually when we were in DC I remember sort of saying, okay, I'm going to pick one area of the museum that I'm going to go to and I'm going to look at it really intensely. And so we're just going to look at one thing, but we're not going to go everywhere. We're not going to try to see anything, everything all in once. I'm just going to pick one section, but I'm going to look and I'm going to take my time and I'm going to do it the right way. And he would get bored and still hang out on anytime there was a bench, he would just be like, all right, I'll catch up with you later. Speaker 2 (49:18): Well, and this exhibit I think could draw in speaking either your husband, if he's not that intrigued by the experience, because it is a little bit more meaning of art certainly could seem difficult for people to tackle. Sometimes Speaker 1 (49:37): He might like it too, just into old photos. Some of it, Speaker 2 (49:40): There's an Speaker 1 (49:41): Old things, and I think Speaker 2 (49:42): It's relatable for just making that commonality of the everyday viewer. Speaker 1 (49:47): Yeah. Speaker 2 (49:47): There's Speaker 1 (49:48): Also, I think a reason I would read the labels in here more likely is because there are just less pieces too. If I went into a show that was like, if this was in the shift gallery and there was a hundred photos, you can guarantee I'm not reading labels. I might read one or two, but if it was like when there's a sort of, this feels like an amount of reading I want to do in this room, room, Speaker 2 (50:13): It's doable. Yeah, Speaker 1 (50:16): This is a good amount of reading. Speaker 2 (50:18): When you don't want to take it, you wouldn't want to do that. You'd ruin the museum experience. We come back to museums because there's always something different we haven't seen, or at the stage in our life that we're in, we might interpret a work in a different way or find new meaning in it. Speaker 1 (50:34): Yeah, Speaker 2 (50:34): I think that's the beauty of art. Speaker 1 (50:36): I think maybe the lesson here is there probably isn't one right way to do it to go to a museum. And so I think it's probably valuable to do what works for you, Speaker 2 (50:49): Because Speaker 1 (50:49): I think museums can become exhausting to people pretty quickly. And so there's a lot of different ways of dealing with that. And so for me, I agree, I'll walk by a piece that I've walked by a hundred times while I'm here at work, and suddenly I'll go, oh, I've never noticed this. And then I'll read the label and all of a sudden I'll go, oh my gosh, I am learning all this stuff about this thing I've walked by a hundred times. But there's also, that's kind of my way of doing it, I think, is if I'm just visiting a museum, probably out of every gallery, I probably read one label. When I'm walking around, I'm sort of go, oh, this is interesting. There's one thing in each room that usually pulls my attention to, I want to learn more. And that's about the level of commitment I want to have at a museum. Speaker 2 (51:47): See, I think I'm a bit different. I remember writing labels for this show that we had at the Contemporary Art Center for the Fluxus movement in art. So you want to talk about some interesting label writing and often very benign. We're looking at a matchbox, what can a viewer take away from this? So I, I think there's a, Speaker 1 (52:08): But yeah, that's the label in this instance is hugely important too, because Hugely, yeah, because it's providing all of the context in most places. But again, I think that's just here where a lot of times that question intrigues me of why is this here? Speaker 2 (52:24): It's Speaker 1 (52:24): The same thing of like, well, why is this matchbox here? Why Speaker 2 (52:27): Is Speaker 1 (52:28): This Speaker 2 (52:28): Piece Speaker 1 (52:28): And then you piece of artwork? I would actually probably be more likely to read a label for a matchbox in that context because it would just be like, wait, what is this? And that's sort of always, I'm a person who always loves when art basically does not look like art at first. To me, I love being challenged like that and being confronted with something that I'm just like, I have no idea what this is. I am very curious now because this is totally unexpected to me. Speaker 2 (52:55): Well, and I think the same is true because I'm less drawn to read a label of a self-portrait from 1750 than I would of reading this label of this work that we were just viewing Speaker 1 (53:07): From Speaker 2 (53:07): 2016. I mean, there's just a little bit more, and I guess that's individualized more dimension and depth to the meaning behind this. Speaker 1 (53:16): Some Speaker 2 (53:16): Would argue differently, I'm sure, however. Speaker 1 (53:18): Well, no, and that's what I mean. It's like, again, another reason say I, there are probably so many labels in this building have never read, but it's also because I've been around these pieces so much that you've just picked up on the story from a lot of times. So you also walk by a thing and you go, oh, I don't need to read that. I've heard everything about it. And then a lot of times you'll read it and there will be something on there that you didn't know at all. So there's totally a value to, you should read the labels. I also think it's probably unrealistic to expect every visitor to read every single label that they encounter. That's just never going to happen. Never. It's just not. And we know it doesn't happen. We know that most people, the average person doesn't read the labels. We know that. So it doesn't stop us from writing. Right, right. Speaker 2 (54:10): That is somebody's job. Yes, Speaker 1 (54:11): Yes. It's a whole department's job, right? I mean, they do other stuff too, but that's a big chunk of it is writing labels and writing the text and the interpretation of these things. So Speaker 2 (54:23): Yeah, there's something very intriguing about that for me. But Speaker 1 (54:26): No, no, I mean, bless 'em. I wouldn't want the job, but just because I'd just rather stand in a room and talk about it. That's the level I am comfortable with. I don't want to write this stuff down, but I'll go hang out in a room and talk with people about it. I can totally do that, that I've got down. I can stand in a room, give me a microphone or not. Just give me an audience and I'll talk about it. But we've gotten very off track, but that's okay. That's also the name of the game. I don't think so. You don't think so? Speaker 2 (55:03): No, I think we're still on track. Speaker 1 (55:05): Okay. Good. Well, is there any last thoughts you have about this piece or anything? It doesn't have to be about specifically as an LA or the show, but anything we should talk about before we say farewell? Speaker 2 (55:19): Well, I mean, I think though I disagree with the categorization of Black History Month or a Woman's History Month, I mean that's a problem in general that we're just not part of integrated right history. Speaker 1 (55:33): But Speaker 2 (55:33): When you look at February as Black History Month and you look at March as Women's History Month, and really this image I think is the combination and the cultivation of the two coming together, but also looking at that kind of global perspective that we often forget about when we're specifically looking at those February and March here in the United States. And I think that's an important piece that we often negate because the global experience speaks to the history we have here. So this piece is wonderful. It's breathtaking, but I think it's very much as art should be thought provoking with a clear intent and message for the viewer to interpret. Speaker 1 (56:20): Alright, well, thank you so much for being my guest today. And I hope you come back sometime to join us again. Speaker 2 (56:28): In fact, I'll be here in March doing a gallery talk. Oh my. That's right. You're doing the good job plugging it. Speaker 1 (56:33): You're going to be here March, is it 18th? Speaker 2 (56:35): March 18th is a Sunday doing a gallery talk from Women's History Month. Speaker 1 (56:40): Well, that's awesome. So if you want to have your own gallery experience with Erica, you can come back then on March 18th. Well, thank you so much, Erica. Speaker 2 (56:49): Thank you, Russell. Speaker 1 (57:00): The thank you for listening to Art Palace. I just wanted to clarify that the museum does own two pieces by Muha, but only one from her Hail the Dark Lioness series. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are William KenRidge More Sweetly Play the Dance. And we also have lots of special features, like multiple medium photographs from the collection, which we discussed today. We also have Marcel Duchamp, WAAN Valise, American Women, printmakers Mementos of Affection and Contemporary Japanese Ceramics. And join our guest today, Erica Yingling on Sunday, March 18th for a gallery experience that explores art made by women. This program is totally free. And for program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. And while you're there, check out an image of the work we discuss today. Go to events and programs and then scroll down to Art Palace podcast. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat, and even join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Efron iCal by Backal. And as always, please rate and review us on iTunes. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.