Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): It took me a while to figure out that that was an okay thing to do. It was all right to just talk about myself and figure my own life out through my art. Speaker 1 (00:23): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is artist Pam Kravitz. Speaker 2 (00:47): Okay. Yes. We're going to talk smart right now. Speaker 1 (00:50): No, we won't. Oh no. Speaker 2 (00:51): Darn it. I was all learning about my art history. Speaker 1 (00:55): Oh, you Speaker 2 (00:55): Practice? You're like, I did not. You're Speaker 1 (00:57): Going to start with the caves of Lascoe. Begin at the beginning. Like Pam, Speaker 2 (01:03): We should Speaker 1 (01:05): Just do art history 1 0 1 for people. They'll be so interested. Speaker 2 (01:09): Oh yeah. Speaker 1 (01:10): When was the last time you were here? I can't even Speaker 2 (01:12): Remember. Actually, I looked, I was listening to your podcast again the other day, and it was for the Van Speaker 1 (01:19): Ears van. Speaker 2 (01:20): Yeah, Speaker 1 (01:20): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was almost two years ago probably. Speaker 2 (01:23): And I was super excited. I made the best of list. Speaker 1 (01:26): Oh, Speaker 2 (01:27): I look. Speaker 1 (01:31): Well, that's good because when I need to do another one this year, we'll just go ahead, just have you on there for I've got it in the bank. It's kind of weird to, we've already done one episode, so I never know how much to introduce you again. Speaker 2 (01:47): It's like, well, Speaker 1 (01:48): But maybe you should just let people know a little bit about yourself in case this is the first time they've ever heard anything about you. Speaker 2 (01:56): Alright. Well, my name is Pam Kravitz and I'm an artist and art educator in Cincinnati. Born and raised, never left. Love our city. I make art about myself, and I think, I hate to quote Frida Kahlo, I'm sure she's quoted quite often, and I might even be lying. It might not even be her, and I could be making this up, which would be even more interesting. But she said, I make art about myself because I know myself best. And it took me a while to figure out that that was an okay thing to do. It was all right to just talk about myself and figure my own life out through my art. And so I've been doing that since kindergarten, kind of struggled in kindergarten with my ABCs, and the teacher right away recognized I liked art and kindergarten, and she gave me the easel all year long. I never learned my ABCs and the other kids didn't like me so much, but I definitely started my art skills that early on. And now I do crazy things like drive the Arnold's bathtub as an art installation. Arnold's is a restaurant in Cincinnati and they have a bathtub, and I drive it in parades. I dress up and do performance pieces and talk about art in art history and how it relates to us as humans and humankind, and I love it. So I think that's kind of me. Yeah. Speaker 1 (03:23): Okay. Well, you were saying before we started, you said you actually, the bathtub was down this year for the Pride Speaker 2 (03:32): Parade, so Speaker 1 (03:32): You had to hoof it. Speaker 2 (03:33): I had to walk with the common folk, not used to that. I'm used to being in my tub and driving. You Speaker 1 (03:42): Do make that tub feel regal. Speaker 2 (03:43): I know. I feel like that too. And we had this whole idea of doing, instead of George Washington crossing the Delaware, we were doing Georgina and the Washingtons. So we were all dressed very flamboyantly and chasing the Constitution. And of course, we all did pass fifth grade history. We know that that's not historically correct, but we figured it was the idea that was important that we need to, the Constitution is for everyone and equality is for everyone. And that was our point. But it was pretty funny because the tub was broken and I was supposed to be George Ina in the tub, and my friends were paddling alongside. So basically they created a boat around me and just paddled me down. But I did have a parade accident. I tweaked my knee, whatever, it goes with the ankle that I broke skydiving and my wrist hiking, and now my knee in a parade accident. It was very traumatic. Oh Speaker 1 (04:49): My Speaker 2 (04:49): Gosh. But I did it all for the art and all for the people. That's Speaker 1 (04:53): Good. Yeah. You suffer for your art. Yeah. Yep. So actually, normally we are recording this part in either a conference room or a gallery. Today's episode is a little different in our Rosenthal Education Center. And we're actually kind of sitting amidst your installation here. So I wanted to know a little bit more about your process in coming up with this. And I was kind of curious, when Alex and Emily approached you about doing this in the Rec, what was sort of your first thoughts and how has that changed? Speaker 2 (05:31): Oh, okay. Really great question. First of all, totally overwhelmed and excited and honored to be in this space. I love, love what Alex and Emily are doing. It's so important and bringing art and making it accessible to everyone. I love that. And that's pretty much the mission of my own art and the idea that it's no spectators, which is what I've been using in my artist statement for years, that my art is not a spectator sport. And it was sort of this very easy connection between the Burning Man exhibition and the art that I like to create. But then it became incredibly overwhelming that I came in the space a bunch of times with my husband Craig. He helps me do everything Speaker 1 (06:21): And Speaker 2 (06:21): We're measuring and looking and all this stuff. And then I would leave and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have no idea what I'm doing. This space is gorgeous. It's the first time they've had an artist in residence. It was like all of this pressure, which I think the persona that I show never shows that side. Speaker 2 (06:44): And I think it's really important to understand that as artists, we constantly are struggling and figuring things out. And the world of social media and Facebook and Instagram doesn't necessarily show that, or I don't show that. But I had many sleepless nights trying to figure out how do I make this a story that is important to me and honors Burning Man and honors the space and honor the Incredible Sense Art Museum. So it was an evolution. And I think that honestly, I would think maybe a month before we actually started the construction was when it all came together. Speaker 1 (07:26): Okay. Speaker 2 (07:26): Yeah. Speaker 1 (07:27): Was there one part of it that was the first thing that clicked for you, or the first part of this that you thought, okay, this is where the direction, this is Speaker 2 (07:35): Where I'm going. I think the Neon piece. Oh, Speaker 1 (07:42): Interesting. Speaker 2 (07:42): Yeah, I know. I knew I wanted neon. I wanted glitter. I wanted stuff that you're really not supposed to have at Burning Man. Right. It's like no glitter. I'm like, okay, I got to have some glitter. But I did put a resin on it so it won't go anywhere. Speaker 1 (07:58): Stuff you're not supposed to have at the museum. Speaker 2 (08:00): In the museum, and the real Burning Man. Speaker 1 (08:02): Oh, really? You're not allowed to have glitter Speaker 2 (08:03): At Burning Man. No, no, no, no. You're, because it gets everywhere and it doesn't ever go away. But Speaker 1 (08:09): The place is full of dust too. I guess that's why it's like it's in the desert. Speaker 2 (08:14): It doesn't. Right. And you're supposed to leave no Speaker 1 (08:17): Trace. Trace. Right. That makes sense. Speaker 2 (08:18): Yeah. And and definitely not in the museum either. There's no glitter. Right. Speaker 1 (08:23): Okay. It makes more sense now when I think about Speaker 2 (08:26): The Speaker 1 (08:26): Impossibility of cleaning glitter, glitter in the desert makes Speaker 2 (08:29): Sense. But I love it. So I figured a way to make it so it wasn't going to get all over the museum. And so when I saw my friend Colleen's child's room, she had the quote, though, she'd be tiny. She'd be fierce. And I believe at Shakespeare, I could be making that up too. I like to make up my own reality, but I was like, oh my gosh, that's exactly what I want this to be about. Speaker 1 (08:57): I feel like that sounds like from Midsummer Night's Dream, Speaker 2 (08:59): I think that's what it's Speaker 1 (09:00): From. Or which one of the ladies is really tiny and they make a big deal about her being short all the time. Speaker 2 (09:06): Well, that's me. So I think once I realized that that was what this space is built around in a way that the tiny little humans that come into the rec center, the rec area, to make art and learn about art and talk about art are fierce. And also the title. So it first started with that, and then it started with the title and the idea of radical self-expression. The title is Ace Ramon, Mr. Doodle Boy, the Peanut, and you. And in the Playa you get Alya name. And in life we get nicknames. And sometimes they really speak to us or speak about us. And sometimes we fight really hard not to be that nickname. So Ace Ramon is my grandson, and Mr. Doodle boy is my son Max, who's 25. And then me, I'm the Peanut, which I always hated, and you come be part of this. So those were the two major things that started to build the story I wanted to tell. Speaker 1 (10:07): So where did the idea for the video component of this also start with the Pam TV over here? Speaker 2 (10:15): Okay, so a couple things with that. We wanted to make sure that the space was accessible to people of all abilities and ages. And so there's places where you jump and you can be, and you can drum and you can, all these other things. I wanted to make it for children that couldn't read yet, or children that couldn't hear. My friend Jacqueline Wood, who's the mini micro cinema, she was the filmmaker for it. We worked together for C A C tv. Speaker 1 (10:45): We Speaker 2 (10:46): Did it on their 75th anniversary. We did a live television show that was super silly. We had Frida Kahlo on the Wheel of Death, which is that thing that you spin around and throw darts at. And then we had Vincent Van Gogh come back to life to be interviewed by my marionette puppet jingle Bell Yosemite. We had roller derby girls that were body painted like Roy Lichtenstein paintings. So it all started there. And then we did a piece at The Art of Food once a cooking show with Pam tv. And then it just seemed to fit perfectly. I kind of fell in love with yo gaba gaba. Speaker 1 (11:26): Oh yeah. Speaker 2 (11:27): And I met DJ Lance. Speaker 1 (11:30): Really? Speaker 2 (11:31): I know. And I was so enamored, and I'm very much, I love popular culture, and I love kids television and cartoons. And so I kind of really wanted to get that same educational embracing learning feeling in a very playful, silly way. And I loved bringing in my friends like Tessa Clark from Project Runway to talk about fashion and Ben Sloan to talk about drumming. And my friend Heather Britt, to talk about dance, all forms of expression. And this whole space is about, what I say in the artist statement is, this all comes to life because you're here and the way you express yourself in this space is up to you. I'm giving you lots of possibilities. The beautiful costumes that Carla Lamb made, I'm giving Scotty Melissa, Moe made these gorgeous walls and Theresa Kramer, these incredible carpets to sit on. And Celine Hawkins made these, and Jared made the head pieces that you stick your head in. I made a little Marquette, which is a tiny, teeny bite-sized little piece of art, and they made it larger than life. So bringing in all of these ways of expressing yourself, expressing yourself, and then the TV show, PM t v is kind of like the catalyst of that. It's like, watch the tv, follow some of the things, do what it says, don't do what it says. It's okay. I love to see pictures of kids watching it and reacting to it and doing it. And so that's where it all came from. Speaker 1 (13:08): And maybe it's, part of it is just the necessity of how one takes on a project like this, but you seem pretty comfortable with inviting other artists in to do a lot of these things. And I was thinking when you were saying this, it's almost like a studio, like a movie studio or the Walt Disney of this operation. But you've got a lot of different artists working all sort of in your style. It all feels like you and I know what Scotty's work looks like, and it doesn't really look Speaker 2 (13:38): Like that, like that as well. Speaker 1 (13:39): So he's clearly working in the style of Pam. Speaker 2 (13:43): So Speaker 1 (13:43): It's just really interesting. Do you have any trouble? How much control do you give over in those situations? Speaker 2 (13:50): That's a really good question. I love working collaboratively, Speaker 2 (13:54): And I love giving artists a voice. And this piece definitely were, I mean, obviously the palette could get any more obnoxiously bright and colorful, which doesn't speak to any of most of the artists that I'm working with. So it's really funny. Okay. So there's an overall feeling in a drawing, pretty simple sketch. I am not the kind of artist that has a sketchbook and is very thoughtful about that. It just sort of comes together. And I'd draw this very childlike sketch, and I show it to Scotty and I'm like, okay, I want these walls and I want holes in them, and I want them to kids to go in and out of them, and I want them to be whimsical. And so he took those sketches and he said, well, I think your angles here would be better if you did this. So he used his expertise to make it more fluid and smart and safe. Safety's huge issue with kids working. And I think that he really embraced the challenge of trying to embraces inner Pam Speaker 1 (15:08): And Speaker 2 (15:09): Make it fit the space and fit the feeling. And same thing with Celine and Jared. And I feel like I give a lot of freedom because I want the artist to be honored. And it's really important that everyone understands this is me working with a big group of incredibly talented, brilliant artists that are helping me make my dream come true. And my husband, Craig, the engineer, he's the one, the mastermind behind the whole thing. Speaker 1 (15:45): He's Speaker 2 (15:45): The puppeteer, to be honest. He's the one that is like, I'm like, Hey, can we do this? Yeah, I'm going to make sure that whatever. It all works. So I feel like this definitely is me working with my friends. Sometimes it's me working very linearly with my friends, my artists. This one's a little definitely more heavy handed in me, but I feel like that it also gave my friends an opportunity to be a little more playful maybe, or, Speaker 1 (16:18): Yeah, I'm just always interested in that when I talk with people about projects like that. Or actually to kind of connect it with the museum collection, we have our nom June Peck sculpture of Pal Crosley Jr. Speaker 2 (16:32): And Speaker 1 (16:33): I was talking with Mark Patal who used to work for the Peck Studio and then also Christian Schmidt. And it's just really crazy to hear them talk about these things. You realize like, oh, you built this. Speaker 1 (16:48): And as they're describing it, you realize Tom Jeck was in New York when this thing was happening and they were working on this. But at the same time, to hear them talk, they don't really have a sense of ownership of it. And other than, yeah, I worked on this thing, but they don't think of it as theirs. They wouldn't have made that probably. So they're definitely working in the style that of Nam Japan. And it really always makes me think of something like working for Disney or something where you're just basically like, okay, well this is the style. You would probably do your own thing, but this is my job. I'm doing this now. And I feel like it's an interesting thing. A lot of people don't understand how the idea of an artist, they feel like it has to come out of their hands sometimes directly to be their work. But I feel like we don't have necessarily the same trouble understanding in more collaborative mediums like film or something like how that works, where the film director, it's their vision and everybody is kind of helping to make that happen. Speaker 2 (17:53): That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understand exactly what you're saying. And I remember the first time I saw Yoko Ono piece, and it was at the C a C, the old C a c. And someone said it was conceptual art. I really didn't understand. Or maybe it was a Carl Soloway on Fourth Street might've been the first place I saw Yoko Ono's work. And first of all, I didn't know she was a visual artist. Speaker 1 (18:19): You just knew her from John. Yeah. Speaker 2 (18:20): Yeah. And her music, I guess, or whatever you want to call that. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (18:28): Not judgmental Speaker 2 (18:29): At all. Not at all. I didn't mean to sound judgmental, but the performative part. But somebody said, well, she actually didn't make any of that. I'm like, well, how do you be an artist and not actually make any of it? And I was younger, and it took me a really long time to understand that, oh, lots of artists work like that, or have an idea or work with a team or Andy Warhol factory ish or that kind of a thing. And I hope it's that much fun, what it looks like when artists work with me, I hope. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm working on a piece for Blink Now, and it will be working in that same way. I came up with a sketch and a design idea, and then how is it actually going to be fabricated with this team of brilliant artist friends? Same thing. I want to give them more freedom on that. It's going to be a fun house. Speaker 1 (19:28): And Speaker 2 (19:29): So there's lots of places for an own artist's interpretation. But yeah, I think of it incredibly collaboratively. None of this could have happened without those artists. There's a joyfulness to it, I hope. I hope. And I love when they invite me to their studios and they're like, Hey, come and look at this. Is this what you're thinking? And sometimes it's not. Sometimes I'm like, well, no, that's actually not anything like I was thinking, but I love it. Speaker 1 (19:57): So Speaker 2 (19:58): I love that you took what was in my head and reinterpreted and made it even better. And I think what I'm very good about is letting go. Speaker 1 (20:08): No, that's good. Yeah. Speaker 2 (20:09): And saying, okay, you have something here. I asked you to be part of this because of your creativity and your craft and ability. So I need to also listen to you and not just dictate. So I hope I do that when I work with people. Speaker 1 (20:24): Where did I think when you first come in the space, the first thing you notice are these giant heads. The Speaker 2 (20:29): Giant heads. Speaker 1 (20:30): So tell us a little bit about where those came from and what you were thinking when you came up with these. Speaker 2 (20:35): I did these paper dolls, which actually Alex did a great job of making, they're one of the stations. It's called Pam's paper Dolls. We're sitting here right now. We're sitting right Speaker 1 (20:43): Next to Speaker 2 (20:43): Them with a million little Pam dolls. Actually. One has an Abraham Lincoln head on it, Speaker 1 (20:48): Which is, I noticed that today Speaker 2 (20:48): A little unusual, and I love it. But I started these dolls in this drawing style a while ago, and my puppet that I made in Prague, jingle Bell Yosemite. She's kind of based on this same face. I also like the idea that I wanted the place to be inclusive and not human and more, and I think this is a word I'm making up to, is anamorphic a word? What is it When you make an animal Speaker 1 (21:20): An human? Anamorphic is a word, but I don't think it means what you mean. Oh, Speaker 2 (21:26): What's it called when you put an animal Speaker 1 (21:28): Anthropomorphic? Speaker 2 (21:29): Anthropomorphic? Speaker 1 (21:30): Well, anthropomorphic is like if I gave this cup arms and legs, it would be anthropomorphic. It's like becoming human. Speaker 2 (21:38): That's what I like. Okay. Speaker 1 (21:39): Okay. Something not human sort of becoming human. Becoming human, okay. Yeah. Speaker 2 (21:43): And I love doing that with animals. And so that's where these heads started. The drawings of way I draw faces, even my own face when I'm drawing. And then I wanted them to be animal-like. And I wanted, what I want this space to be is a space where a kid, an adult person comes in and becomes something else Speaker 2 (22:08): Or becomes more of their own self. So these big huge heads, which are actually the three of us, they're Ace Ramon, Mr. Doodle Boy, and the Peanut. And so you come in and you maybe put on the costumes that Carla made, and you put your head in there, and then you become something else. And the idea that you can put your head through that little space in there still shows it's you. And that was a really interesting thought that originally I was going to have them totally closed off, and you just stuck your head in it, and you just see your body. And then my friend Jacqueline is like, well, but then you don't really get the feeling of the child inside. Speaker 1 (22:47): And Speaker 2 (22:47): So that was the decision to open the mouth up so the little face could come through. And that was the idea behind that. I want you to become a Ramon or become you inside this crazy head. You could do either way that you want to express yourself. Speaker 1 (23:07): Nice, nice. I like that idea. Not only, I think you're trying to create an environment that is transports. You walk in and it's like, oh, I'm somewhere else. I feel like I am entering into somewhere special. And you're doing that kind of both, just with the walls that you described that Scotty built, and even just the different color on the wall sort of puts it. I mean, it's very theatrical when you come in and you see the staging of it, it's like, okay, I'm walking into another world, basically. And so then it's interesting that you think about also as I'm becoming somebody else too, in this other world. Speaker 2 (23:48): Yeah. Oh, you say it way better than I do. Speaker 1 (23:50): Oh, well thank you. Thank you. Speaker 2 (23:51): We should write that down. Exactly right. Yeah. Speaker 1 (23:55): Cool. Cool. Well, I'm glad I got it right. Speaker 2 (23:58): You totally got it right. Speaker 1 (23:59): I won Art Speaker 2 (24:00): You. Yay. You get to Pam doll with the Abraham Lincoln head. Yay. Speaker 1 (24:07): So tell me a little bit too about, you mentioned it briefly about the dress up clothing too. So just talk a little bit about that aspect of it too. Speaker 2 (24:17): Okay. So when you come in the space and you come in, let's say you just were at the pool, or you as a kid and you just got your street clothes on, which are cool. And you walk into this incredibly vibrant, crazy space and to totally transform yourself into the space, there's a wall of clothes that you can then put on and almost become a character within the space because of the clothing. It's perfectly cool if you just want to wear your pool clothes or your soccer uniform or whatever. I love that too. But I also like the idea of giving you a costume change if you want it. And that's the way I present myself. Whenever I do a presentation or a talk, I become this other person, and it's still me, but it's me dressed up. It's me with a huge headdress on that Stacey Vest or Theresa Kramer made. So it's like I wanted to give the child that opportunity as well. And I think when you dress up, what I found out, I used to be the mascot for uc. Did you know that? Speaker 1 (25:20): I did. We talked about lot last. We talked about that last time. I was going to say I was actually about to bring it up. I was thinking about it. I was like, oh, yeah, you are the mascot Speaker 2 (25:27): We Speaker 1 (25:27): Talked about, because these heads are very mascot. Speaker 2 (25:31): And then we made those mascots. We made those two mascots for the piece as well. But the idea that when you dress up and you change your clothes that are your own, or you put a headpiece on, or you put a whatever, a hat on, you can then transform yourself and be something else and express yourself differently. Or it gives you it a license to be a little crazier. Speaker 1 (25:55): A lot of times the mask helps you be more You too. Speaker 2 (25:59): Oh, Speaker 1 (25:59): True, true. So it's like there's the safety of the mask, Speaker 2 (26:03): Which Speaker 1 (26:03): Helps you actually be maybe the more true version of yourself, Speaker 2 (26:08): Because Speaker 1 (26:08): There's a layer of safety there too. Yeah, Speaker 2 (26:11): You're right. Speaker 1 (26:11): You're giving kids the chance to put on these things. And there is something about you might be afraid to walk. A lot of kids would probably be afraid to walk out the front door wearing that. Right? Speaker 2 (26:23): Right. Absolutely. Speaker 1 (26:25): So this is a safe place where you get to wear this thing and it's okay. So you're setting up the rules and almost the space itself is setting up the rules of like, no, I'm not out of place when I'm dressed like this here, because this is what the space looks like. And so it's like, again, it's a safe place to try on these things, to try on these different ideas and look at yourself in an interesting Speaker 2 (26:54): Way. Yeah, no, absolutely. I feel most comfortable talking in front of people when I create this larger than life persona and express myself through my costuming and my dresses and my headpiece. Same thing. Yeah, you're right. It is. It's like, well, now I am this other thing. And it's a safer reality than just Pam Kravitz standing up there and talking. Speaker 1 (27:19): Yeah, you probably would not feel nearly as comfortable and nobody would doing it in their pajamas. Right, Speaker 2 (27:26): Right, right. Well, especially mine not, but yeah. Yeah, Speaker 1 (27:33): That kind of outfit. When you're saying you feel the need to put that on, it's also though it signifies to your audience that something special is going to happen right now too. So you're setting up a little bit of an expectation for them as well that, oh, I should pay attention. Something good's going to happen Speaker 2 (27:53): Here Speaker 1 (27:54): Because somebody is sort of dressed a little differently than they would. So anytime you can do this all the time. If I was to walk into our summer camp today wearing a cape or something, I could command a lot more attention than I might normally because at least for a few minutes, they would be intrigued by what, what's the, Speaker 2 (28:14): What's going on, what's going on the cape. Something's a little different here. Speaker 1 (28:18): Yeah. Speaker 2 (28:18): Well, I could whip you up one, actually, my mom and my sister, they could whip you up. One, they did a lot of the sewing. Speaker 1 (28:25): I feel like I've brought up needing a cape at work multiple times, but mostly just because usually cold. And I just like the idea of being a person who wears a cape, but just sort of, anyway. Well, Pam, is there anything else you wanted to tell us about the installation or the space here? Speaker 2 (28:45): Well, yeah, I think I just would like to say that everyone is welcome and the way you want to express yourself is kind of a beautiful thing. And I love to see it when my friends show me pictures and I see the art that the kids are making when I walk in here. And I think it's really important that we see the beauty of art and art making and how powerful it is to our own little souls and our own psyche. And I am so honored and excited that I get to be part of this beautiful space and give that opportunity to kids and adults and watch the magic happen. So yeah, I think that's it. Oh, you know what though? Don't you think people should come in and they should meet Pika Pam and pokey Pam? Speaker 1 (29:45): They should. I don't know exactly. I think they don't have a regular schedule. Speaker 2 (29:50): Exactly. I know. We'll have to figure that out. Speaker 1 (29:51): So it's a little hard to maybe tell them when they can catch a sneak at the Pam and what was the other one? Speaker 2 (29:57): Pokey, Pam and Pika. I don't even know. It's basically, I bought two costumes that are Pikachu and another Pokemon, so we just decided everything should have Pam in it. Okay. Yeah. And just my friends and my mom, Renie and my sister Andrea, they helped. And my friend Nancy from school, they all help make these costumes. And Carla Lamb beautifully made these costumes, so they're so silly. And so I don't know. But yeah, you should come come a lot because you never know when new things won't happen here. Speaker 1 (30:32): I like that they look like they were, you can kind of tell this used to be something. Speaker 2 (30:37): Right. I know that Speaker 1 (30:39): Has been transformed. Speaker 2 (30:40): We tried to really hide that and then we're like, okay, forget it. I mean, there's no Speaker 1 (30:44): Way. It's sort of the funniest. I think that's what makes him really funny to me is that you can see the sort of structure underneath and you can tell it's this thing that's almost been like defaced. And that's sort of funny. It's like opening your high school textbook and somebody's like drawn a goatee on George Washington Speaker 2 (31:05): Or Speaker 1 (31:06): To Speaker 2 (31:06): Meet, right, that's exactly Speaker 1 (31:07): Duchampian. And you've drawn a goatee on the Mona Lisa or So there's just something inherently funny about seeing something that's been kind of messed with. And obviously that, because keeping a chew in there. Speaker 2 (31:22): So Speaker 1 (31:23): To reference that this used to be a Pokemon is Speaker 2 (31:26): Pretty great. It's pretty funny. Thanks. I think it's funny, Speaker 1 (31:29): One of my favorite parts about it is that you can still tell what it was, but it's a little bit like Speaker 2 (31:36): That's Speaker 1 (31:37): Not right. Speaker 2 (31:37): Something's going on here. Yeah. Something. It's not right here. Speaker 1 (31:39): Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you so much for being my guest a second time, Pam. Speaker 2 (31:43): Oh, Russell, thanks for having me. I love it. I love talking to you. Speaker 1 (31:46): Oh, thanks. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are Kimono Refashioning, contemporary Style and No Spectators, the Art of Burning Man. Join us for an artist workshop on ceramics on July 20th at 1:00 PM led by an artist from Visionaries and Voices. This workshop is open to ages six and up, and children under 12 must be accompanied by an adult who is also registered for program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is FRA Music How By Balal. Speaker 3 (32:42): If you enjoy Speaker 1 (32:43): Our show, why not leave us a nice review or rating? Or you can also take the survey which helps us learn more about our listeners@cincinnatiartmuseum.org slash podcast. Speaker 3 (32:52): I'm Speaker 1 (32:52): Russell Leig, and this is Event Art Palace, produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.