Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on Art Palace. 

Speaker 2 (00:02):
This painting here actually is a protest. They are breaking the law, and to be quite honest, it's not really peaceful. 

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's school person is Christopher Miller, director of Education and Community Engagement at the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Okay. 

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, I've been at the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center for over 14 years. I started my journey there through an internship, which turned into a position. My first staff position was as a historical interpreter, and then in, I started that in 2007. In 2012, I was moved into manager program initiatives, and so that's where I did a lot of community engagement activities, connecting with other institutions as well as educational institutions as well, other museums. And then I was moved into a director position the beginning of early in this year. And so I've had a wealth of experience working in museums, but as well as with the history surrounding the Underground Railroad. 

Speaker 1 (01:46):
So what year did you start as an intern? 

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I started as an intern in 2004, but I actually, so what I was, I was a first person interpreter, and it was through the Northern Kentucky University, which I am alum of. 

Speaker 2 (02:04):
And what we did was I was able to do the research and I could pick whatever character I wanted to portray within the museum. And so the person I selected was a man by the name of Reverend Germaine. Wesley Logan, who was dubbed the king of the Underground Railroad for assisting over 1500 fugitive slaves to Canada. And so I did the research, was able to find him as a research assistant with the Institute for Freedom Studies at the university, and I built a monologue around his life. And the first time that I performed that monologue was for the first Black History month for the institution in February of 2005. 

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah. When you said 2004, I was thinking that has to be right around the time it opened, right? Was 

Speaker 2 (02:53):
It? Yes. Yeah. So we're about to celebrate 15 years. We opened in August of thousand and four. 

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So what was that experience like giving that monologue? 

Speaker 2 (03:05):
It was very given that I wasn't in the drama department, I tell people I've been acting a fool all my life, but acting per se, it was quite intimidating. It was challenging for me. Dr. Darrell Harris, who's still at N K U, 

Speaker 1 (03:24):
He's great. 

Speaker 2 (03:25):
He did a fabulous job with me, took me through, I guess you could say drama bootcamp. I was mad at him for a few days as well as happy, but he worked with me constantly. And so even though with all that hard work, I still didn't feel I was prepared because I was nervous. But I remember probably about a month out, and I remember I was in the course of doing the monologue and I looked over and there's this woman, she was crying. Oh, wow. And I was like, wow, I'm a part of that emotion that she's feeling from the story. And so I understood that my insecurities that I may have stepping in period costuming in front of the public, that was insignificant. The story is what's significant, making sure that I poured everything that I needed to do into making that experience meaningful, making sure that it was real for those that were listening. And matter of fact, it became my very real, because people would ask me, are you really? I reverend? And I was like, no, no, I'm not. And they would ask me questions afterwards pertaining to the character as if it was that suspension of disbelief that they're actually back in the 19th century. 

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Wow. That's great. You mentioned that you did historical interpretation. 

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yes. 

Speaker 1 (04:48):
And that's an interesting, it triggered something in me because I have interpretation in my title as well, and it's a big thing that we do here. I guess it's like art interpretation seems a little more like, well, of course you have to interpret art because it's a little less nailed down. But I thought it was fascinating to hear that you sort of have to think about history in that same way, really. So what does that mean really to somebody who doesn't know? What does historical interpretation mean? 

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Well, the interpretation can take on many different forms very similar to what you do here with the artwork. We have the Times feelings mural, which often I'm called upon to interpret that particular piece. And so we talk about, we use visual culture talking about the elements of the human element being at the very top of being of great significance, the human element towards the center of the artwork being of great significance, and also looking at the people's posture and various different things and what kind of message the artist is trying to convey. And so we ask that with questions. We want to say, well, what do you feel when you see this? One of the most compelling image in that Toms feelings mural. You see an infant child being held up by one arm, by someone who looks to be a slave traitor, 

Speaker 1 (06:09):
And 

Speaker 2 (06:09):
You see a mother reaching out for her child. That tends to evoke a certain emotion to our guests when they see that image. And so to ask questions. And so it is sending a message. So we want to make sure that through the interpretation that they're having that understanding when it comes to history and historical interpretation, that can be done in a several different ways. You can do it with first person where you're dressed as you can do it in third person where you are speaking about a famous character. You can also do it through facilitation to where you're probably setting up a first person interpreter to come out and you're kind of setting the stage. Let's take you back to 1834 and so forth. And just providing context for what the guests are about to experience. 

Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah. When you mentioned having murals, and I know you have artworks in the museum as well, I guess I am so used to being here in our museum where we have really only one mode, right? We've got one way of doing things, and that's through art and that's it. So it's kind of interesting. You have a much more open toolbox almost to get to sort of play around with. And you were just sort of describing some of the different things in that toolbox. So that's just, I don't know, what are some other ways that the museum has sort of told that story? 

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, we do use art. We also do it through exhibits, artifacts. We have one of the largest artifacts within the region, and that is the John William Anderson slave pin. 80 plus percent of it is very much authentic, meaning that the wood that you can actually touch very well could have been someone who was brought there in irons. Enslaved 

Speaker 1 (08:03):
May 

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Have rested her hand or their head right there. We made a conscious decision not to put any barriers between the guest and this artifact, which in museums you tend to, when something is authentic, it's behind glass and so forth. But we felt that this was too important of an experience. We wanted to take the risk and having it more available and accessible to our guests so that they can touch the wood so they can get real close to it. So they have the understanding that although this is a artifact, there's a human quality about it, because human beings were brought into that structure for a means of as property, chattel property to be bought and sold, men, women, and children. And so we interpret artifacts, we interpret art pieces that have, and so what we try to do is we try to create an experience, and I think that's what I would implore all institutions will try to do. You just don't want to just have a visit. No, we want you to have an experience. 

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah. The slate pin is definitely an experience. I think it's one of the most powerful parts of the museum to me. And I think you're right, that allowing visitors to walk into that space is one of the most amazing parts of the museum. It's just such a, how many people I can't remember, would 

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Fit 

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Upwards to 50 to 60 women and children kept on the bottom floor. Men were chained to the top floor. It was in two floors, and the entrance into the actual slave pen that we take our guests through is actually the fireplace. And so at one of my interpretive responsibilities, I was the man in the slave pit. And I would dress in costume and people would walk in and my first line would be, although you have come through the fire and now you are here, do you know where you are? I said, although you've come through the fire, meaning that what people walk through was the fireplace. So they have that understanding. Do you know where you are? I want to make sure that people understand that all the way appears to be a cabin or a house. That's not what this is. This is a slave pen, not a house, 

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Not 

Speaker 2 (10:17):
A cabin. And so from that moment, that sets the tone so they have that understanding of where they're at, so they have a sense of place. And also to understand within the interpretation that this was only 50 miles away from where we are, where it is now situated. And so keeping in mind that slavery was very much a part of this region as it was nationally, 

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Almost, I think about it in terms of art in a way, I can't shake that, but the way it does relate to the body very directly in our relationship with it, in the same way I might relate to a piece of sculpture and have that sense of how it connects with me as a person. I think one of the first things we pick up on when we're looking at something is, am I bigger than it? Is it bigger than me? Kind of thing. And so when you give people that context of how it relates to their body and how that related to other people's bodies, I think that's a really powerful thing. And I think, so I can't help but shake it as a kind of object in that same sort of art way that is experienced, but with the help of that context too, makes it such an amazing experience. 

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Absolutely. I would say artwork and artifacts that really connect with the human spirit really resonates and is much more meaningful, in my opinion, than pieces that are kind of void of connecting with that human spirit. So regardless of you are what you look like, where you come from, trying to identify yourself within that artifact or that piece, keeping in mind, because when I tell people, I say, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, brothers and sisters we're brought here. They were bought and sold. So when I put it in the context of family ties, regardless of who you are, where you come from, you can identify with that either being a father, a mother, a daughter or son, or a brother or sister. And so hopefully by putting it in those universal terms, it will usher in the necessary empathy and understanding that you need to have in interpreting the exhibits. 

Speaker 1 (12:39):
It does make an immediate connection. 

Speaker 2 (12:41):
How do you establish empathy with your guests that come in because they're either one? Well, it's so old, it happened so long ago. Or it's the issue of, well, I'm not like that, but it is to understand that we are all benefiting from people who were treated in this fashion. When we talk about American enslavement, it was a machine. It was an economic machine that benefited the entire country, and it laid an economic foundation that we are still benefit from today. So at least it's our obligation and responsibility to have a greater understanding of that institution and also the social realities that we are still dealing with, the residue with. 

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Do you have any other favorite pieces, objects, experiences in the museum that you and your long history there with them that you just sort of look back on fondly? 

Speaker 2 (13:46):
That's a really good question. Our escape gallery I think is outstanding. That's 10 where we take our children into, I like sitting on the steps of the safe house that we have and just engage students into conversation. And we talk about try to make, part of the interpretation is taking something that's very complex, but making it very real and understandable and relatable to our guests. And so within the Escape Gallery, we have the safe house where there are different compartments where people would hide underneath the stairwell, underneath the floorboard, behind cabinets, places where I'm a big guy, so I wouldn't be hiding any of those places. But you also have a false bottom wagon, which is very uncomfortable. We have a replica of Henry Brown's box, Henry Box Brown. He was 5 10, 200 pounds. And we have the mention of the box, and sometimes students and also adults will get in the box so they can just feel how confining it is. But with that, the overlaying message is, isn't it amazing how people confine themselves in these uncomfortable places for the hope of being free? And so freedom is a process. And so any ambitions that you may have, any desires that you will have are your dreams and your goals. Keep in mind that there's a process and there are some things that you have to do to do the things that you want to do. And I think sometimes it's wonderful when we can take the lessons of our ancestors and use it to propel and motivate young people and adults into the future. 

Speaker 1 (15:34):
What's coming up or what's going on right now at the Freedom Center that we should know about? 

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Well, we are just finishing up Mandela Journey to Ubuntu that's coming to a close at the end of February. And we are kicked off our Freedom 55 initiatives that deals with the Freedom Summer Project of 1964, where a group of students were trained at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio for voter registration to go down into Macomb County and Mississippi and to register voters. And so what we're doing is for the remainder of the year, we will have programming dedicated to that history. We will have lectures, we will have community conversations. We will also have some music involved as well. And so we have a nice breadth of programming that we will do all the way through December. 

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Great. Well, if you're game, I thought we could go look at some art right now in the galleries. 

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Absolutely. Okay, 

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Well, let's go. 

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Alright, 

Speaker 1 (16:55):
So we are standing in Gallery one 19 and we are looking at a painting called the Underground Railroad, which is appropriate by Charles T. Weber. And I wanted to get your take on this painting, and it turns out, actually you were pretty familiar with it. You've used it in teaching already, right? 

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yes, absolutely. And some cultural competency training. 

Speaker 1 (17:18):
So explain what you kind of did with it in that instance. 

Speaker 2 (17:22):
So basically I simply do a Google search, 

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Underground 

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Railroad of images. And there are two images that will pop up. One is the Charles T. Weber image, and there's also another image. The difference between the two is that with Charles T. Weber, you see as far as white abolitionists helping freedom seekers, whereas in the other image you will have black conductors helping freedom seekers. And also the elements are a little bit different. This one, as far as the Charles T. Weber, it's very calm, relaxing. It really is void of the tension in danger. It is in being a conductor on the Underground Railroad. And the other image actually conveys that a little bit more strikingly just from the posture, but also with also the lead person holding a gun. 

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, that shows you, yeah, 

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Absolutely. So you have that element of danger and risk, but with the Charles T. Weber painting, you really don't have that. When you look at it, you don't see as far as how serious and how dangerous and how risky the enterprise of the Underground Railroad was. 

Speaker 1 (18:51):
One of the reasons I wanted to look at this painting with you is because I think we all know that it has lots of problems in sort of historical terms, and I don't know, what are some of those that stick out to you right away? 

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, one of the things that I've learned when it comes to visual culture, the human element at the very top is very important and it gives great significance to the painter. So at the very top is Levi Coffin or an image of Levi Coffin. He's at the highest point human element on the actual photograph. And then at the center is a image of or replication of his wife. 

Speaker 1 (19:36):
And 

Speaker 2 (19:37):
The man in the middle looked like he's holding his back. He has a stick, looks like he's struggling. And what it conveys, what the problem it conveys is that it's showing that this individual is helpless, that he is definitely in need. And then you get into the dynamics and nuances of a white savior complex. The Underground Railroad comprised of many diverse people, white, black women, men, but most of the underground railroad activity took place by individuals that looked like the ones who were freedom seeking. And so those were the black communities in here in Cincinnati, you had several different wards, but you had settlements like Little Africa, Bucktown, little Bucktown. Those communities were very instrumental in providing a gateway to freedom for those that were seeking freedom crossing over the Ohio River. 

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, I think when the sort of compositional focus of this painting right away, I think it's really clear when you look at it that we have the focus becomes on Levi Coffin and his wife. And those are the things the eyes are drawn to immediately. And especially like you pointed out, just by literally putting Levi at the height of this composition, it's almost like he's on a pedestal. Absolutely. In the painting, he's poking out higher than anyone else, so he naturally becomes the focus. And I think there's also specificity to the faces that you can tell he's painting a portrait of them in a way that the elderly man that Catherine is escorting, he kind of reads as a caricature to me a little bit. I mean, maybe he's based on a real person, I'm not sure, but it just doesn't quite have the same kind of specificity. 

Speaker 2 (21:44):
And 

Speaker 1 (21:45):
It's not true of all of the black faces in it. I think some of them do feel specific, but they aren't necessarily people in the same way that we can identify. Like Catherine and Levi Coffin are 

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Absolutely. They're somewhat in the shadows out of focus. You see the one woman with her child, she's very striking, but she comes in between, as you said, your eyes gazed to Levi coffin, the human element at the top, and then you're drawn towards the center with Catherine helping the older black gentlemen. And then, so everything else is kind of, even their eyes, if you look at their eyes, their eyes are moving inward towards that center image. The one woman I said, that's even striking. She's looking in that direction. 

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Exactly. 

Speaker 2 (22:35):
So your eyes are going to be drawn in that direction as well. 

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, it's interesting. I do think it's an interesting composition that I do think actually Levi or Catherine and this man are kind of the focal point of the painting, even though Levi is higher. I think that interaction is what becomes the focus of the painting by those eye lines that you just kind of pointed out. And then actually, when you come to this image, that's usually the first thing I notice. And then I kind of creep up to Levi after that. What about traveling at this time of year? And you mentioned the difference of the two paintings that you used, that the other one is, was you say it was more like summer feeling or warmer, 

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Or they were in a different region to where it was warmer climate. So as far as with the winter, and one of the things as a research, as a fellow, I should say, with the Institute for Freedom Studies, I committed two and a half years to researching subscriptions from runaway slave ads. And one of the things that we were was the time of the year that people were escaping. And so you did have more escapes taking place during the late fall in the winter just because of daylight. The days were much shorter, so therefore you could use the night for cover as you were traveling, and then during the day you would hide. So what's compelling about this is I start to wonder what time of the day is this taking place? It doesn't appear to be at nighttime. I'm seeing as far as light being cast upon the snow and whatnot. So I would have to say that this is early in the morning possibly. 

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah. See the little, I feel like that's being conveyed through the pink light on the snow that we are either seeing a sunset or sunrise. So yeah, that's sort of where I'm reading it, the shadows. It's a little vague though. 

Speaker 2 (24:45):
And so the best practice is by this time, this individuals of freedom seekers should already be tucked away in hiding. 

Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah. It's too bright 

Speaker 2 (24:57):
By this standpoint. And so being out. And so the element, even if they are out during this time period, this is a serious element of danger. And I'm not seeing danger being communicated in this picture. I think sometimes the painter, we look, sometimes we look at history and we're very nostalgic about it, and we sanitize things as well. And when we do that, it lives on. And so you have this like, oh, they're helping, but really this is dangerous. You have laws, 

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Levi 

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Coffin and Catherine, what they were doing in other conductors on the Underground Railroad. They were breaking the law. They could be jailed, they could have been fined. And so you have conductors like John Hatfield at Mount Zion Baptist Church right here in Cincinnati, Ohio. He wore a overcoat that had six, I'm sorry, seven compartments to where he could get to seven different pistols. Now he's a deacon of a church, but he understood the gravity of the seriousness if they are caught. The other thing is too, as living, being a person of color living in the state of Ohio, you also had a different set of laws. You had black codes, and one of those black codes were that those of African descent living in the state were not lawfully allowed to have guns, to own guns. Oh, really? Yeah. That was one of the black laws. So keep it in mind, just that element of danger, which I feel is void in this pain and is a critical part of the Underground Railroad. 

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah, that's a really interesting, I mean, we kind of talk about it, and I've definitely looked at it before in terms of its obvious white savior message, but I never really thought about that, that it's also sort of selling Catherine and Levi short on being these total rebels too. And by focusing Yeah, it does sanitize it to a point where you just said that it doesn't have that sense of them being lawbreakers, which is kind of sad because it's like, well, that's a really, I, that's a sexy bit of storytelling there too, so that they're missing out on as well. 

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is the truth. I mean, you can look into Ohio legislature and look at the books and look at the laws that were set, especially after 1850, the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 came into play. So you actually, you had sanctioned marshals who were, their job were to capture runaways, 

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Whether that was right after they crossed the Ohio River or going up to Canada before they cross over into Canada, I should say. But yeah, this painting, it brings a lot of elements. I know the setting is supposed to be in Cincinnati as well. I look at the housing in the back, and so I tend to wonder, okay, where's this location at? And as well as you do see the snow, as we talked about, you see the hay and you just see the number of faces. And also too, what's a rarity is the amount of people that are escaping 

Speaker 1 (28:18):
In one group together. 

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Correct. 

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (28:21):
There are accounts of people escaping in large numbers, but they are few and far between. The more consistent regular escapes took place with either one or two or three people. Here you have multiple people. You have about, at least about what, eight, nine, possibly 10 individuals. You have children as well, which makes that journey complicated because children not necessarily having the understanding of how dangerous it is. They may wander away if you have an infant child, that child making noises and things of that nature. Now, there is a wonderful story, Cincinnati story about a group of 28 that escaped from Boone County through the streets of Cincinnati in a mock funeral with the assistance of Deacon John Hatfield, Levi Coffin, and also another conductor by the name of John Fairfield who came from a Virginia Slaveholding family who was very anti-slavery. 

Speaker 1 (29:27):
I think that's a great example of a story of freedom seekers who are telling a really compelling story that is not quite so focused on white abolitionists too, that you just told. And I think that's one of the things we, it kind of bugs me about this painting still is that it's like, I mean, I think it's fine to look at as long as you can pick apart those things too. And one of the things that is a little disappointing to me, I guess, is when you said you do a Google image search, and this is one of the first things that pops up, which is both like, well, I guess it's good our collection is out there and well known. But I also have heard, and I'm not sure exactly if this is still true, but that this was a really commonly requested image for school history textbooks. 

Speaker 1 (30:18):
And so it's just a problem because we're thinking about it, talking about this is not all the things that are not historically accurate about it, but you remember those images, they stick in your head. And so even if the text below the image is correct, this image still has a, it can get into your head and it can stay there. And it's like, I remember paintings from my textbooks as a kid and things like that, and maybe it's a really visual learner that I remember those things. So every time I look at this painting, I always point out, this is made years after the events it depicts. Right. 

Speaker 2 (30:58):
Well, we live in currently a visual culture seeing images. They do speak louder than words. And so that's very, very important. I will say that with this particular image, it was used as far as in textbooks. I grew up in Indiana and as recent as 19, well, no, I take that back early two thousands. My oldest daughter, she was in school and she wanted me to look at her history textbook, and it said that the textbook stated that the Underground Railroad was started and maintained by Quakers. So knowing that Levi Coffin was a Quaker and this being used in textbooks, that image would feed into that narrative, which is a false narrative. And so keeping in mind that this image would go very well with that false narrative about Quakers creating the Underground Railroad and maintaining it. And so I'm not surprised that this would be in high demand. I'm not surprised. That is one of the images that pop up when you do a search about Underground Railroad. 

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah. Well, and I think what you sort of pointed out in the differences between the sort of two images that you used to teach with that this one probably is a lot more comfortable for, this is a lot more comfortable for people to sit with and to look at. And so when somebody's even making that kind of choice of which image they include in their textbook, they might not even be thinking about it on a really deep level. They might just be going, oh, this is a nice image. I like this. And not necessarily running through all the reasons that it is nice to them. I think we make a lot of those. We intuitively make a lot of decisions, but then when you really break down why something is or isn't comfortable with you, there's actually a lot of reasons behind it. So I kind of feel like all of those things that you're talking about are kind of conveyed here, and we pick it up really quickly, even if we don't know, we're picking it up really quickly. 

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Right, absolutely. And it would be interesting if this image was next to an image of Eric Green and Colin Kaepernick taking a knee and seeing what Connie emotions would be evoked by having that image, because though they are taking a peaceful stance protest, it's amazing to see how people feel about that image 

Speaker 1 (33:55):
And 

Speaker 2 (33:55):
About what they're doing. When this painting here actually is a protest. They are breaking the law. And to be quite honest, it's not really peaceful. It's not supposed to be peaceful because of the danger that is in play. So it's amazing to how our emotions go when we look at certain images. And once again, there's quite a bit that's problematic about the painting, and maybe a contemporary artist might be inspired to actually do their take on the Underground Railroad and to have an image and to do the research and have the understanding of what was more commonplace when it comes to the Underground Railroad. 

Speaker 1 (34:44):
So yeah, when you mentioned that Catherine and Levi Coffin are breaking the law, it reminded me of Charlottesville and the way that I feel like there was a lot of talk afterwards of going, but permits, people wanting to bring up these nitty gritty details of legality in this situation, I kept just being like, who caress about permits? We're talking about big moral issues here, and it's like you keep getting into the fine print of legal issues that are just uninteresting to me at this moment. We are talking about really big, important moral issues, and you want to get into the nitty gritty, and it's like, why do you want to get into the nitty gritty? What is it you're protecting? What is it you want to protect when you do that? I think those are the questions. 

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Well, that's because we feel a bit of comfort in under the delusion that laws are just, but when you actually look at the history of our country, laws have not been, just from the very outset, laws have made race a priority over being just, you can look at the state of Ohio. Ohio became a state in 1803. The first piece of Ohio legislature were the black codes. So at the infancy stage of the Ohio becoming a state, deciding to be a free state, the first piece of legislation that they want to enact deals with race. 

Speaker 2 (36:19):
If you are considered a Negro or mulatto, which were the terms, you had different set of laws and restrictions that you had to abide to in 1807, it included good behavior and included elements of awe as well of escaping. You had to find two people to validate your character and put up a $500 bond. We're talking about in 1807, $500. So we like to have this narrative where we forget the legalities and how that restricted the policies and how they restricted access and opportunity, especially for people of color and for individuals who were helping on the Underground Railroad, they were indeed breaking the law. They were indeed could be fined and jailed. So we need to understand that the government or laws haven't always been on the right side of history. They've been exactly on the opposite side. And so when you go back to talking about Charlottesville and you're talking about permits and really what is more significant, the moral value of what's being taking place or immoral value that's taking place or permits, 

Speaker 1 (37:41):
And it's also take the long view of history, I have no doubt in my mind that people will be discussing that moment years from now. People will be talking about that in history, and I don't think they're going to really be talking about permits. They're not going to be getting into those nitty gritty details of like, well, this particular group had a permit, but this particular group did not have a permit. And it's like, it's irrelevant. And I think the point you make about laws, the assumption of laws being just is a privilege that you can feel when a law has never been used against you. 

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Absolutely. 

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Right. If you've never had a law used against you or see how a law is set up to be counter to you and your wellbeing, then it's easy to sort of just go, oh, yeah, well, it's the law. It's great. Right, right. 

Speaker 2 (38:32):
It's like a stop sign. This is just what it is. You have to stop. So we want to challenge people to critically think about things, think about laws, think about policies, think about the dynamics of history. When you look at this painting, why does your eyes gravitate towards this? Is this an accurate painting depicting the Underground railroad? Is this something that is common to the Underground Railroad experience? From my opinion, it is not. And so that's what makes it problematic. But you can use this piece to engage in that conversation, to think critically, and so that people can research, people can investigate, people can have greater knowledge. And so it is useful, keeping in mind it's useful. It is a brilliant and beautiful painting, but for educational purposes and for understanding of the social realities, it takes some work in doing that. 

Speaker 1 (39:38):
And I think it's like everything, none of this exists in a vacuum. A lot of people want there to be this just objective idea of art that they can just look at and try to divorce it from context. That's a big thing with a lot of times when you, and probably less so with works like this, but a lot of times when you start talking about works that are a little more challenging for people, a lot of abstract works, and you try to give the sort of historical context behind them and say, well, this is what's, what was happening at the time? This is what this was a reaction to. They go, well, I shouldn't need to know all of that. But it's like even when we're talking about works like this, it's the same thing. They don't exist in a vacuum. So it's important. When you asked me what year was this painted? It's important to note, yes, this was painted, I think it said 28 years or something after 

Speaker 2 (40:26):
1893, I believe. 

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yeah. So I think it said on the label, let's read here. Yeah, it said 28 years after the Civil Wars end. 

Speaker 2 (40:34):
Now the thing to think about in 1893, you also want to put in context what was the country like in 1893? So what's compelling about this as well is also the year that he was created. So when we talk about confederate monuments and when I've been in those discussions, I always ask, well, when was this statue or when was this monument actually went into production to be created? People forgive like, okay, this was during the 1920s, the 1930s. Well, what was the country like in the 1920s and thirties to where they really have an understanding about confederacy? So it's the same thing with this in 1893, what was going on in the country for this artist to depict the underground railroad in this way? This time period is during a time period, which many black historians or historians of black studies will call the nadir of African-American history than a deer of race relations. 

Speaker 2 (41:35):
That a deer means the lowest point. It means the decades of disappointment because during this time period, you had the emergence of the Kuku Klux Klan. You also had a great deal of lynching taking place. You had the emergence of people like Ida B. Wells who was as communicating, telling the world about the lynchings that were taking place, hundreds of black and brown bodies just hanging from trees, and it was the social norm in many communities. It was nothing to see the swing of black bodies and people having eating food and their children are around. It was very insidious behavior, but it was commonplace throughout the country. And so you have this in 1893, you have this going on, you have the convent leasing system, which a lot of people say it's slavery by another name. And so you must take the production of this painting within the context of the time period of what's going on in the country as well. 

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think this was a great conversation. I'm so glad you came out today to have this with me. 

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Well, thank you for inviting me. It's been a pleasure, and hopefully I'll have the opportunity to come back again. 

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have your own conversations about the art. General. Admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking special exhibitions on view right now are Paris 1900, city of Entertainment Art Academy of Cincinnati at 150, a celebration in drawings and prints, and Georgia's Leia escape to the city of entertainment this month during Art After Dark Passport to Paris on Friday, March 29th from five to 9:00 PM Enjoy free admission to Paris 1900 live music from the faux Frenchmen dance Performances from Madame Gigi's outrageous French CanCan Dancers, food for purchase from Urban Stead Cheese Macaroni Bar, and the Terrace Cafe, specialty Wine from the skeleton route and docent led tours with Cincinnati Playhouse in the park. For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Efron Musicality by Becca Lao. And as always, please rate and review us. I'm Russell Eig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.