Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:02): And there's the same three pieces of music you'll hear while someone's walking through an art museum on television. Speaker 1 (00:26): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Ahad Maze, director of Education and Community Engagement from Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra. What does the education department, it's like I should know better since I work in our education department, but I guess what does that look like? I mean, it's such a different type of organization for the symphony, so what do those kind of programs look like? What are the types of things you're doing there Speaker 2 (01:10): For orchestras? For the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, at the center of our work in the Education and Community Engagement department, we kind of have three pillars of what we do. The first one is going to be school programs, so working directly with schools to a, provide music enrichment experiences, musicians going out to schools, field trip concerts where schools come to us at music hall. And second area is going to be our instructional programming area. So this is actually teaching music to kids, so literally on instruments. And we have a fantastic youth orchestra that is a part of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra. Actually two youth orchestras, about a hundred kids in each. So we manage that in addition to a pre-con conservatory program that we just launched this year called the Novo Pre-Con Conservatory Program, which is a program that is geared towards supporting young musicians who are currently underrepresented in classical music. So African-American, Latino, Hispanic, and certain other groups are largely underrepresented, not just on the professional orchestra stage. About 4%, 4.3% of professional orchestra musicians are African-American or Latino or Hispanic. That number gets slightly bigger when you look at conservatory and then slightly bigger when you look at kids Speaker 2 (02:56): In their high school music programs. But overall, it's a real issue for us. And the Newville pre-Con Conservatory program is one that we hope will make a difference in that area. And along that same line, we have a adversity fellowship program that fits within our instructional programs, which is a pre-professional program that pairs performing with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra and Pops receiving mentorship from our musicians and career development seminars, pairs that with a master's program at C C M. And this program is also geared towards musicians of pre-professional range who are underrepresented in orchestras. So we've got eight fellows right now about to audition our third Speaker 1 (03:50): Class Speaker 2 (03:51): Of fellows later this month. And that one's just getting started too. So we're in our third year of that program looking to make an impact in this area of diversity. And just really quickly before you, I see a question brewing over there, so hold on to that. I said there were three pillars. Speaker 1 (04:11): Are we only on two? We're Speaker 2 (04:13): Only on two right now. The third is our community engagement programming, which is really founded on our desire to work with communities on shared goals and creating art together with communities, not just to introduce people to what we do, but also assist neighborhoods and communities in highlighting the great resources that they bring to the table. So we're really looking at taking a collaborative approach to engaging neighborhoods and communities and allowing more people to get familiar with what we do at the orchestra, and also helping people realize that we're more than an ensemble that only plays at Music Hall. We're committed to being embedded within our neighborhoods, and we've got many ways in which we do that as well. Speaker 1 (05:08): So the question that was brewing that you saw was because you were talking a lot about the efforts that you're making towards increasing diversity through education, and I guess I was curious about the other parts of the organization that you don't necessarily oversee, so it's not really your responsibility. I understand that, but I guess I was curious, does the symphony make an effort to represent composers, diverse composers and things like that? Is that a sort of concentrated effort or is it just you're just doing a great job, or how do you feel about that? Speaker 2 (05:50): It is, yeah. I'll start by mentioning our composure in residence for the 1819 season. Jonathan Bailey Holland. We've had a long, over decades long relationship with Jonathan. He's an African-American composer based out of Boston. And efforts are intentional to highlight art that's created by underrepresented composers, musicians, and I think we've got to actually have a world premier coming up in a few weeks by a Mexican American composer, Enrico Ella. I can't say when that's happening. I don't have the program Speaker 1 (06:35): In Speaker 2 (06:35): Front of me, but the efforts are there and they're sincere, but the challenges are real and they're substantial in that the statistics, the trends that I pointed out about musicians who are actually performing in orchestras, they exist across all areas Speaker 1 (06:55): Of Speaker 2 (06:55): Our field. So there is underrepresentation from composers and from guests, soloists, administrators. It's a wide and issue and something that we're determined to address, not just here in Cincinnati, but I think as a field, Speaker 1 (07:16): I Speaker 2 (07:16): See a real growing intensity and a growing sense of urgency and sincerity Speaker 1 (07:24): In Speaker 2 (07:24): Addressing this challenge, hearing about it more and more at our national conferences and things like that. And to me, it's one of the most exciting parts of our work because it's something that can be truly transformative to our field. Finding ways to overcome our centuries old tradition of being exclusive. I mean, classical music kind of started with the aristocracy. I mean, it was something that was only afforded by the wealthy, and slowly it's becoming more and more accessible to other people, but we want to make sure it's something that everyone can be a part of and access in many different ways. Speaker 1 (08:13): Yeah, no, I mean, I think we're probably in a really similar boat in that way. It's a similar struggle. I think that between a museum and a symphony of having that same kind of history of being somewhat exclusive and also having that a sort of wall or perceived or real with people, that this is not for them. That's a big thing we deal with all the time of just, I think, and pop culture has a lot to do with that too, as well of if you think about how the symphony is represented, how a museum is represented in pop Speaker 2 (08:54): Culture Speaker 1 (08:55): Of the same cast of characters, the same sort of cliched, people Speaker 2 (08:59): Will Speaker 1 (08:59): Show up in both of those scenes, right? Speaker 2 (09:01): Yeah. I mean, there's the same three pieces of music you'll hear while someone's walking through an art museum on television. It's Speaker 1 (09:10): Usually baroque. Speaker 2 (09:11): Right, right. Yeah, Speaker 1 (09:15): Right, exactly. Actually, that's one of the jokes of when I started this podcast, I sort of laid down the law that there would be no baroque music in it. And then I found this really kind of great version of this box song that is the theme. It's this hip hop remix of it and stuff. Oh, cool. So it was like, okay, this is sort of so cheeky about it that I'm like, I can get away with using baroque music. But it is this cliche of things that are, and now you're at the museum or you're at Panera. I dunno which one, because it's the same music usually. Speaker 2 (09:57): Yeah, it truly is a stigma out there that it's, it's not true. I mean, it's okay. I'm sure with you, it's okay to wear your jeans to the art Speaker 1 (10:11): Museum. Speaker 2 (10:12): Don't even have, you could wear a t-shirt Speaker 1 (10:15): As Speaker 2 (10:16): Well. Wear shorts if you want to. I Speaker 1 (10:17): Think actually, I mean, think by being free, we actually, that has helped. I think there are some folks who feel like a need, they need to sort of dress up when they go to it. And there are folks that don't. And we're really happy to have them come through the door no matter what you're wearing. Right. Speaker 2 (10:32): Yeah. Speaker 1 (10:32): And I'm sure you're in the same boat. It's like, look, if you want to come sit in this theater, please do it and wear Speaker 2 (10:40): Whatever you want, wherever you want. And by all means, if you want to clap between movements, that's okay with me. Speaker 1 (10:47): That is so funny. That is a big one. Oh my gosh. We were talking about that. I was talking with Julie Sunderland from the ballet, and I was talking about how my own insecurities about going to the ballet is that I never know what's impressive. I feel like everyone around me is, you're supposed to kind of know, oh, that was really hard. And I'm like, it all looks hard to me. I don't know. Why would I clap for this part and not this part, but it's like there's this sort of unspoken agreement around you of like, oh yes. Oh, suddenly Speaker 2 (11:17): We Speaker 1 (11:17): Clap because they did some move that I have Speaker 2 (11:20): No idea Speaker 1 (11:20): What it is. Speaker 2 (11:20): Yeah, yeah. Well, that's part of the fun I find too, is you kind of have to feel the room. The room kind of collectively decides sometimes when it's time to do that. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's funny, it never fails though after the first movement of a piano concerto. People, I mean, usually they all often feel like the end. I mean, when it's the longest moose, you're sitting there for 20 minutes and then there's a grand cadenza at the end where they're, you think the piano is going to start on fire. They're playing so many nodes and then these grand chords at the end. And then sure enough, I mean, everyone has been there when the last chord cuts off and then the auditorium erupts in applause, and then they just kind of wait. And then, oh, by the way, there's more. Yes, which is my favorite, Speaker 1 (12:21): But it does create this weird, I never thought about that, about the weird kind of social dynamic of the people in the know and the people not, and then there is this total thing happening there where you are maybe a little more guarded, but I'm sure you'll know more about this. But isn't this sort of the sacred musical a kind of new idea as far as a place you go to hear music that is where the audience sits and is really quiet? Is that kind of new, right. I mean in terms of about as old as probably your institution, I'm guessing, or Speaker 2 (13:02): Is it a little Speaker 1 (13:02): Older than that? Speaker 2 (13:03): Well, I think there are probably varied accounts of what it meant to be in the audience of an orchestra performance throughout history. But I think what's commonly understood is that at least as far back as the classical period, it was common to applaud whenever you felt Speaker 1 (13:27): It Speaker 2 (13:27): Was appropriate. Now, in terms of socializing and things like that, I'm not sure, although that would be kind of neat too. I'd love to see a concert series where it's kind of like you sit there with your cocktail and everyone is respectful enough to listen to the music, but also has the not be able to talk to the people around you without feeling like you're going to get stared at. But orchestras experiment with that kind of stuff. So you'll see things like, for instance, we have a series where we're doing chamber music, some of our local breweries Speaker 2 (14:05): And a few times a year. And it's taking the music, putting it in an unconventional space and adding the secret ingredient of alcohol and trying something different, allowing people to experience it in a different way. Because I think particularly a lot of our young professional going out needs to be a social experience. And while we try and build that around the concert, we try and optimize the silent social experience of sitting and listening to a concert and sharing in that experience together. It's not the same as holding a drink and being able to chat and react to the music in real time through conversation. But yeah, I mean, think to your question, I think it's somewhat of a 20th century thing that you sit there and wait for all three or all four movements of a symphony or concerto to be finished before you can show your gratitude to the artists. And there it becomes more about, less about the audience and more about the music and the performers. And I don't necessarily think it should be that way. I mean, who is the art for Speaker 1 (15:32): To Speaker 2 (15:32): Begin with Speaker 1 (15:34): Just now as we're talking about time and timelines and stuff, how old is the symphony? Speaker 2 (15:41): The symphony will celebrate its 125th anniversary with the 1920 season. So I guess if I do the math, that makes us 123 Speaker 1 (15:52): Years Speaker 2 (15:53): Old right now. But the history actually goes back a little bit further than that. Cincinnati has had in orchestra or orchestras performing in it long before the CSO was established. They kind of say that music is kind of in the blood here. In fact, the May Festival goes back, it predates the orchestra. And then ultimately the C CSO was formed in the late 19th century Speaker 1 (16:27): And Speaker 2 (16:28): Has been around ever since. Speaker 1 (16:30): Yeah, Speaker 2 (16:31): Yeah. Speaker 1 (16:31): That's what I assumed. I knew the Maye Festival was first, and essentially Music Hall was sort of built around the Maye Festival then. So I kind of knew it was slightly after, but I assume they were kind of all lining up roughly around the same time, just sort of always interested. I bring this up in every episode, but I'm just always fascinated when all of these organizations that start hours and that are all kind of starting around the same time too. Speaker 1 (17:03): And even when we talk about museums, it's like museums aren't also that old of an idea either really, if you think about it, I mean, you have a few that are in that traditional model like the Louvre or something that goes back a little bit older than us, probably a hundred years or so before us. But for a while it was like you go to, somebody has a private collection, but this sort of idea of a public place where you would go and see art is just, it's in the big scheme of history is kind of new. So it's always something we like to think about too. And as you're talking about context and different ways you might music, it's something we try to remember all the time, is when people maybe get in a huff about the way that they're expecting to experience the art here, that, well, almost none of this stuff was created to be seen in a museum. Speaker 1 (18:05): We have recontextualize all of this, basically even the things that look like they should be here because you've always seen them here. That is something that is still recontextualized. That portrait was meant to be in that lady's house, not here. And it's like there were some pieces where that's really obvious where you have the African collection that was never meant to be seen in a museum. This is stuff that has, many of them are religious ceremonial objects that are meant to be performed with. They're performative objects, and they're not really meant to be just looked at statically. So there's some things where it's really obvious, but then there are other things where it's like, yeah, the context is different in all of this. And apart from things like 20th again, things that were made after this idea existed basically of after the building happens, after you start having museums, people start making work that is meant to go into museums. Right. And it's kind of, I'm sure the same way with music as well too. You have sort of music being created for a context as well. You have music being created that is meant to exist in this sort of mode of, well, this is the way people will see it. Speaker 2 (19:23): Right, Speaker 1 (19:24): Right. Speaker 2 (19:25): Yeah. Compositions weren't always created for the concert hall, that's for sure. And what's cool about an orchestra is that it's is not a fixed creation that's always the same. I mean, it's a living, breathing organism. And it's actually evolved over the years much in the same way that art techniques and media have evolved over time. And orchestras now, hopefully my college history professor's not listening in my facts might not be straight here, but it's Speaker 1 (20:06): Okay. Don't worry. I am definitely going to fact check what I just said about the louvres. I'm like, if I'm way off, you can guarantee I will cut that part out, because Speaker 2 (20:15): I'm like, Speaker 1 (20:16): I always do that after I say something and then I go, is that right? Speaker 2 (20:20): I'm going to look it Speaker 1 (20:20): Up before I sound stupid. Speaker 2 (20:22): But orchestras as a concert ensemble, once we take opera out of the equation, it was, I think, originated in private homes much like art. So for instance, Hayden, one of the most famous composers, his job was to compose music, to be played a person who wanted music to be performed in his home. He had a wealthy person who hired him to provide his personal music for his own parties. And those symphonies were never intended to be performed in a 2200 seat concert hall. But over time, it kind of made that shift. And then you get into the later periods and you get these technological advancements that allowed orchestras to become louder and bigger in the instruments to be more dynamic and do more incredible things. Then the canvas changed at that point. It's incredible to just kind of think back about the evolution of the ensemble and how much it reflects the actual kind of evolution of society really. And technology and industry really plays a big part in what the orchestra is now, all the way up to new compositions that utilize electronic instruments. And there's even concertos for, I want to say there's one piece that uses cell phone. Oh, really? Ringtones that the audience provides, get your cell phone out. This is an interactive piece. And then there's another work for turntables dj, Speaker 2 (22:14): Which is really interesting. So yeah, it's kind of cool to just think that make these parallels between the visual art field as well, about how these things came about and what the purpose was and what we use them for now. Speaker 1 (22:31): Yeah, that just made me think, when you talk about the piece for cell phones, another kind of interesting art music crossover is someone like John Cage where you have him making pieces for radios that were to be turned. The score is just a set of instructions for people to turn a radio dial at certain points. So the piece is totally created based on the happenstance of what's on the radio at the moment. And most of the time it's fuzz, and sometimes you get little half weird in-between things playing over top of each other. Speaker 2 (23:10): And Speaker 1 (23:10): Then he's using that same process to also create artworks as well. So he's making drawings and prints and things that use sort of chance operations and happenstance to sort of roll random numbers to determine the size of the piece, the length of marks and all of this too. So it's interesting to see somebody who's really working in a mode and then they can expand that to almost anything. It could be music, it could be art, it could be anything. It's really interesting to hear those Speaker 2 (23:42): Crossovers. Yeah, there's always, there's always the factor of what will people think? Will they like it? And our consumer, I don't know what it's like here, but they expect to appreciate what you're putting out there. And that's not always the case with orchestras. I mean, for most, for a large part, we feel like it's part of our job to expand the views of our audience, but also we want to provide those go-to reliable experiences that the Beethoven's Ninth that we know Speaker 1 (24:26): Is Speaker 2 (24:26): Going to resonate with our audience. But do you find those types of reactions when you do certain Speaker 1 (24:30): Exhibits? Yeah, I think we know, well, this is going to be a little challenging. This is going to challenge people. And yeah, I think there's definitely an effort to mix it up. We have our shows that we know will be crowd pleasers. Speaker 1 (24:47): We know that, okay, this is going to be the successful thing. So I think we usually try to mix those up. So we might have something that's a little more obscure, a little more off the beaten path, a little more challenging, maybe at the same time that we have something that we know will be more of a crowd pleaser so that people come for that crowd pleasing thing, but then hopefully stay and check out something. I think something like the William Kentridge exhibit downstairs, that is a amazing video installation that actually is really musical and uses music is such a huge part of it. It's something that I think probably most of our audiences are not super familiar with the artists when they show up. I mean, many people are, he's pretty well-known artists, but I think a lot of people, it's this thing that they didn't expect to be impressed by. But it's one of those things that everybody who goes into it goes, oh my gosh, this is the most amazing thing. So I think that's one of the great things is we can pull them in with one thing and then they'll go check out the other stuff. And also I think to me, it's fun to be challenged by things. And I know not everybody shares that opinion, but I love going to see something that sort of doesn't look like anything I've ever seen before. And I feel the same way about music too. I kind of love to hear something that's like, I've never heard anything like this. This is crazy. Speaker 2 (26:11): Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it's for people like us who are immersed Speaker 1 (26:18): In Speaker 2 (26:18): It, I think it's easier to find the value because we know it and something new is really interesting and allows us to kind of grow and develop. I wonder for the, say our typical subscriber who really, they might go to six concerts a year. I am starting to form these questions in my head. Is the experience of artistic expansion or cultivation, is it different for them because they have those six opportunities to experience the orchestra? And are we thinking about that when developing the series and things? I'm sure we are. That's not my area of work, but you've got me thinking about it now. Speaker 1 (27:17): Do you want to go look at some art in the collection with me? Speaker 2 (27:20): Yeah, sure. Speaker 1 (27:21): Okay, awesome. That Speaker 2 (27:21): Sounds cool. Speaker 1 (27:22): Let's go. We are in the third floor galleries here looking at Judy FAFs three, four time. And so I was trying to think of a piece that had some sort of musical references in it, but was also not too straightforward and not too literal. Speaker 2 (27:56): Yeah. I'm trying to find the right angle here Speaker 1 (28:00): To interpret. I don't know if there is a right angle. So maybe we should just start by, since people probably can't see this, and I'm not sure I'll even be able to include an image of the work because we don't own the photo rights to this piece because it is so new. So maybe we should just describe what we're looking at. Speaker 2 (28:18): Go for it. Speaker 1 (28:20): You don't want to be up the challenge. Speaker 2 (28:22): Lots of metal, Speaker 1 (28:24): Lots of wires, metal. So if I was to maybe categorize this piece, it is an assemblage, you might say, out of found objects. Speaker 2 (28:38): Yeah, some decor, some practical objects. I see a chair in there. Speaker 1 (28:42): Yeah. I'm assuming some of it is created specially for the piece. Some is found and it is a wall sculpture, so it's kind of interesting because while it is three dimensional and you can walk somewhat around it, it is ultimately attached to the wall. So you can never get all the way around it. So it's something of you feel like you have mostly one angle on it, and then you get kind of subtle changes as you move around that a little bit. It's very active. Speaker 2 (29:18): It is. Yeah. I don't know where to draw my eyes. So when I view something like this, I kind of break it down. I'm seeing shapes. I, I'm a very literal viewer of art, so I see a peanut and a hot air balloon with an umbrella on top of it, lots of green glass bottles. And Speaker 1 (29:41): There are Speaker 2 (29:42): These fish that are just kind of swimming around over here next to some mussels, the sea shellfish, mussel and limes. Speaker 1 (29:55): Yeah, it's very, yeah, you were mentioning the green, the color palette of this piece is pretty limited. It's like black and white and gray for the most part. And then you also have these different greens and you have basically three different green things. You have these big discs in the background that have circular shapes that are cut out of their big circles themselves, and then they have other circles cut out of them. And those are this kind of acidic, yellow, green, almost like highlighter color. I Speaker 2 (30:30): Would agree with that. Speaker 1 (30:32): And then you have in the foreground, those are kind of in the background in the foreground. We have, I don't know, swimming with the fish. These bottles that look kind of like they're floating along with them. They're sort of held up in these little containers, these green glass bottles. And then you have these limes, these plastic limes as well, which are pretty close in color to those bottles too. And again, they're kind of also mixing in with the sea life. So yeah. Then the only other thing that's kind of outside of that green is this weird structure in the middle, and I don't know what it is. Speaker 2 (31:12): I'm trying to make sense of that or see where it fits. Speaker 1 (31:16): And it's the only kind of anomaly, and I wonder if she chose it, maybe because it's a little bit of an anomaly. Sometimes an artist likes to throw something in there that kind of sets everything else off a little bit because Speaker 2 (31:28): It's Speaker 1 (31:28): A little too harmonious. It's a Speaker 2 (31:30): Little Speaker 1 (31:30): Bland. So it's this kind of gold yellow metal structure that definitely looks like a found object of some sort. But I have no idea what it would be for. Speaker 2 (31:39): No, neither do. I Speaker 1 (31:41): Mean, it looks like some, it's got these feet that clearly would sit on the floor. It almost looks like an umbrella stand or something, but I don't think it would be super helpful. I don't know. It doesn't have a Speaker 2 (31:52): Base. Speaker 1 (31:52): Yeah, Speaker 2 (31:52): It doesn't have a base. Yeah, Speaker 1 (31:53): I can't quite figure out what, Speaker 2 (31:55): I'm sure my wife would find a practical use for that in our home. Probably. She finds things like this. Speaker 1 (32:01): And this is one of those things too, where the label doesn't actually help us. It just says, found objects. Speaker 2 (32:07): Well, I'm thinking of the, so three, four time, that's a musical thing. That's a time signature. I don't know if the reference is to a three, Speaker 1 (32:16): Four Speaker 2 (32:16): Time signature, but a three, four time is three beats to the measure. So say an example would be a waltz, 1, 2, 3, 1. It's a little more, feels a little more endless kind of circular. This kind of perpetual kind of 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3. So the circles kind of, that's interesting. Make me think of that. But I did also read on there that it's not an effort to kind of do three D sculpture in more of a painting like style. Is that what I wrote there? Speaker 1 (32:55): Make Speaker 2 (32:55): Painting more three dimensional, explore how to make painting more three-dimensional and sculpture more painterly. So I'm kind of looking at that as well. Speaker 1 (33:05): Yeah, I think that's kind of the whole idea of a wall sculpture is, like I was saying, it's always going to be referencing painting in a way because it's on the wall and we think about it as mostly being viewed from the front. So it does have something of more of a set composition than a sculpture that you can view in 360. But so yeah, I think she's intentionally getting into that. And even maybe the use of color in that way of by limiting the palette to these greens, it makes you think of it in a colorful way about painting. Maybe most sculptures either eliminate color altogether to sort of emphasize the form of it or maybe use one color specifically or So it's interesting here that she is using color in a way that is really painterly the label was saying. That's interesting. I'm glad you brought up the thing about the waltz, because I had never thought about that because when I read three, four time, I have no concept of what that is. Speaker 2 (34:08): So that was my immediate reaction was is this a reference to three, four times signature? Speaker 1 (34:14): Oh, I am positive it is. I mean, because you can see these are those, I always interpret this as music. Yeah. Speaker 2 (34:24): It looks somewhat music if not notation, I'm thinking. I can tell Speaker 1 (34:30): Though. Yeah, Speaker 2 (34:31): I mean, I think kind of a piano keyboard almost some too, but not quite. It's just enough to make you think about Speaker 1 (34:38): That. I know. That's really Speaker 2 (34:39): Funny because, but not literally. Speaker 1 (34:40): I think I've always just read it like that because of the name, and I just always thought, oh yeah, that's probably, it looks like music notation. But then now that I'm looking at it, I'm like, it's not it. I think you're right. I think it just gives you enough of it to maybe make you think of it. It Speaker 2 (34:56): Feels like music notation. Speaker 1 (34:57): Yeah, and what's interesting is to, as I'm moving around, I'm looking at those lines on that curved piece of metal, the black lines, and then looking at how they sort of mimic the same outlines on the discs in the background. And actually it's like as you move around, sometimes those little edges will line up with the other circles. Speaker 2 (35:22): Right? It's kind interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. Speaker 1 (35:24): Yeah. So it becomes a very much a drawing in space. It was sort of Speaker 2 (35:29): Talking Speaker 1 (35:29): About that you kind of get these lines that connect for a few seconds and as you move, they disconnect and then join up with other things. Speaker 2 (35:37): Wow. This one, there's one that kind of meets in two places right there. You see that one on the little right side of the Speaker 1 (35:45): Yeah, Speaker 2 (35:46): Yeah, yeah. I wonder about intent with that. That's kind of interesting that you pointed that out. That's neat. Speaker 1 (35:52): Yeah. I'm sure Speaker 2 (35:53): It's about the same thickness too, isn't Speaker 1 (35:55): It? Yeah. I think it's very intentionally like, oh, I don't think that's an accident at all. I think that's very intentional. Speaker 2 (36:01): Yeah, it's too perfect to, yeah. That's cool. Speaker 1 (36:04): If you had to pick a piece of music or a composer that you think would fit this, what would you choose? Speaker 2 (36:14): I, I'm thinking Eric. Speaker 1 (36:21): Oh, okay. Speaker 2 (36:22): And any number of his, I dunno how to say it, but it's a very, very kind of whimsical tune in three, four times played on piano. If you heard it, you would recognize it. Speaker 1 (36:39): Yeah. Speaker 2 (36:40): But I think the whimsy of this, to me, it feels very intentional, but it intentionally whimsical and what makes me think of sun tea when I look at this. Speaker 1 (36:54): Yeah. I think whimsy is a great way to sum up this work. Definitely. It is a fun piece. I think when people think of, to me, I think we were talking about some of the work that people find difficult to look at and maybe some people would not be excited by. I think one of the things we also talk about a lot is the, I could do that effect, Speaker 2 (37:18): That's my mom Speaker 1 (37:19): Every Speaker 2 (37:19): Time we go to the art museum, Speaker 1 (37:20): Right? So this might not pass that test for some people because to some it might look like a bunch of garbage on the wall, I'm sure. But I don't know. I think there's, to me, this is so much more fun than say, looking at this painting next to it, which is much more sort of austere and Speaker 2 (37:40): Right. Yeah. My mom would definitely say she could do that one. Right? Speaker 1 (37:44): Yeah, Speaker 2 (37:44): For sure. And really, how would you do that, mom? Speaker 1 (37:49): Actually, that's great. It's something of a glib answer. I don't like to sort of say, one of my least favorite museum responses to that is like, well, you didn't, which is just, I feel like, I don't know. It's not helpful, but I think that's a great way. Okay. So imagine you, where would you start? What would be the process of doing this? We have these Donald Judd sculptures around the wall. I think we have some hanging pieces on the wall that are so minimalist, and I think a lot of people would just go like, whatever. And when you realize, no, these were not made by a machine, they were made by a person. It's like, oh wow, this is incredibly tight. There's no room for mistakes. A piece like this three or four times by Judy F, there is so much space for mistakes. You can be sloppy here and hide your mistakes because ultimately we're not going to notice them because there's so much going on that it's easy to hide it when you're making something really minimal. There's no place to hide. Speaker 2 (38:50): Yeah, this one's very busy for sure. Speaker 1 (38:53): One thing that's really interesting, and I don't know if I've ever noticed this before, but I just noticed this one bottle is like Speaker 2 (39:00): Cut in half. Yeah. Right down the center. Speaker 1 (39:03): I don't know if it's broken and just conveniently broken like that, but it Speaker 2 (39:09): Looks like it was cut. Speaker 1 (39:10): Yeah, it's really interesting. It feels like it's cut in half very purposefully. Speaker 2 (39:15): Oh, you know what? They all are actually, they're just turned at different angles, so you can't see them all. Speaker 1 (39:20): Wow. And then the way it's kind of finished off by the wire frame, so from a different angle, it feels like the bottle is complete because it's almost being drawn in by the Speaker 2 (39:32): Wire. Yeah. I thought all of these were full bottles, but they're all cut in half. Speaker 1 (39:36): Yeah. Again, I've been here five years looking at this and never noticed that. So it always pays to spend some extra time, more time looking at something than you normally would. Well, any last thoughts about this piece? Speaker 2 (39:51): I would want more time with this one. There's so much to it. You got to really get into it. I bet there are more little intricacies, like those bottles. Speaker 1 (40:00): I'm sure they're, Speaker 2 (40:00): That's what I was looking at with the fish. I'm like, well, I wonder what's up with the fish? What's going on over here? Speaker 1 (40:05): Are they whole? Speaker 2 (40:07): Are they whole? Yeah. Speaker 1 (40:08): Are they missing parts? Speaker 2 (40:08): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it's definitely, it's a cool sculpture. I dunno, with the fish and the mussels and the limes and the empty beer bottles, it kind of have this feel like it gives a nod to maybe coel or something. I don't know. I'm just Speaker 1 (40:29): That's interesting. Speaker 2 (40:30): Yeah, Speaker 1 (40:31): It's a nice, it's got Speaker 2 (40:32): A very, very beach, Speaker 1 (40:34): A very Speaker 2 (40:35): Coastal vibe to it on one side. On one side. At least Speaker 1 (40:40): Those fish, they seem sort of so silly at first, but when you really think about, they're doing so much work in this piece, because without, if you took those fish out, you just kind of immediately get rid of those fish. This piece is way less fun. Right, Speaker 2 (40:55): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (40:56): The fish they create, they really, there's Speaker 2 (40:59): Motion there. Speaker 1 (41:00): Exactly. I was just about to say that they animate everything because of their fish. And even though they're plastic fish, we think of them as swimming and moving. And so then what we do is by extension, we make the bottle swim, we make the lime swim, we Speaker 2 (41:17): Make, Speaker 1 (41:18): So we make everything else become sort of alive and living. So it's really funny the way how these just little fish can activate something. All the rest of the pieces so much. Speaker 2 (41:31): Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking at the bottles now, like a school of fish. Speaker 1 (41:34): Oh yeah. Yeah. That's how I always see them too, is just because they're all grouped up in that same way. You just think of them darting around. Speaker 2 (41:41): Yes. Yeah. Speaker 1 (41:44): Alright. Well thank you so much for looking at Judy F'S three, four time with me today, Amad, Speaker 2 (41:49): Thanks. Oh, you're welcome. And Speaker 1 (41:50): Thanks for being my guest. Speaker 2 (41:51): Yes, absolutely. Anytime. Speaker 1 (41:52): Alright. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. The special exhibition on view right now is William KenRidge More Sweetly Play the Dance. And we also have lots of special features like multiple medium photographs from the collection. Marcel Duchamp, Botton Valise, American Woman, printmakers Mementos of Affection and contemporary Japanese ceramics. Join us on March 30th at 5:00 PM to 9:00 PM for art After Dark Dance. Like an Egyptian enjoy a silent disco in the Great Hall from headphone dance party interactive tours from Cincinnati Playhouse in the park and more. This event is free with cash, bars and food for purchase. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and even join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is FRA Music by Balal. And as always, please rate and review us on iTunes. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.