Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace. Speaker 2 (00:03): I think the piece is one of the most accessible works of art I've seen in a long time. Speaker 1 (00:22): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell eig here at the Art Palace. We meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is artist Brittany Bick neighbor. You were probably, so I was thinking about this. You were probably actually the first podcast host. I actually knew in a Speaker 2 (00:55): Way Speaker 1 (00:55): Because you were hosting a stutter cast. Speaker 2 (00:58): Yeah, it was a podcast called Stutter Talk. Speaker 1 (01:00): Stutter Talk, okay. Speaker 2 (01:01): Yeah. It was during the time of, so I was a covert stutter growing up. Speaker 1 (01:08): This is so fascinating. I remember when you told me this and I was Speaker 2 (01:10): Just like, Speaker 1 (01:11): What? I did not understand. First of all, I remember when you said, I'm a stutterer, and I was like, no, you're Speaker 2 (01:17): Not. Well, I could hide it really well. Speaker 1 (01:19): That's so crazy. Speaker 2 (01:20): And I actually just finished up a round of speech therapy two weeks ago, Speaker 1 (01:25): So you're still like, Speaker 2 (01:27): So Speaker 1 (01:27): What is, this is so fast. I love this. And that's why I remember when you telling me, oh, I'm hosting this podcast and I am a guest host, and you'd been on it, and I would listen to it, and I was just so intrigued by it because it was this whole world that I knew nothing about. And the whole, I don't know, it was just a very empowering, I don't know. I thought it was really empowering. Speaker 2 (01:50): Thank you. Story to me. I really appreciate that. Speaker 1 (01:51): Yeah, Speaker 2 (01:52): And I think I had just recently, in the past couple of years, a lot of problem, well, a lot of almost inner questions about my identity as a human who speaks, am I a stutter? Am I fluent? You know what I mean? And just straddling both of those worlds. And we had a couple therapy sessions with my speech pathologist because it felt so weird. I'm obviously really fluent right now, and I can be really fluent for months, and then somebody will switch and I will, and I'll be really disfluent. Yeah. For a couple months. So yeah, stuttering is, it's a cyclical thing. And yeah, it was something that when I was little, when you stuttered and you see people's reactions or the way that children, or the way that your peers react to, and you get the signal, oh, this is something that I shouldn't do. Speaker 1 (03:00): You Speaker 2 (03:01): Know what I mean? And not necessarily anybody told me, don't do that. It's just those cues that people give you about something about you. You know what I mean? And then you're like, well, this is something I need to not share. So I developed tools of, I became a covert stutter, and there's people out there whose own spouses don't even know that they stutter because they're able to hide it so well. So I would use word substitution if I felt a stutter coming on, and I probably did this with you in my early twenties, if I felt like I was going to stutter on a certain word, I would change the word Speaker 1 (03:43): Which ones are trigger it or for Speaker 2 (03:45): Sure. Speaker 1 (03:46): Yeah. Speaker 2 (03:46): Yes. Speaker 1 (03:46): That's so cool. Speaker 2 (03:47): Yes. Speaker 1 (03:48): I mean, it's crazy. It's insane. It's like, I don't know. I had never, and I think at the moment when I was listening to this, I did not understand my sexuality very well. I think it, I'm a person who I feel like I have no coming out story because I have a million. And I actually, I think about listening to that as actually a really important part of me recognizing as you're sitting there saying this stuff about, you recognize when you get these sort of negative feedback from others Speaker 2 (04:23): And Speaker 1 (04:24): That changes how you behave. And it's like that is the queer experience for a lot of people is basically you do something and you're sort of chastised for it, and in ways that people maybe don't even realize they're doing it in these really small ways that are not, for me personally, I don't think I had a ton of people who were really policing my behavior in a way that was super overt or any way, but it was just very subtle Speaker 2 (04:55): For sure. And Speaker 1 (04:56): That changes what you want to put out there in the world. And so it's just, it really resonated with me when you were talking about that. I was like, oh my God, is I totally understand this. And then even the thing when I remember you telling me, oh, yeah, I'll make myself stutter. Speaker 2 (05:13): Yeah, that was a way for me too, because even my mom always told me, you're going to grow out of it. You're going to grow out of it. So even when I was in college, I had this idea in my head that I was going to grow out of it. You know what I mean? I had this moment where I was at work and I was 26, and I was like, holy, I don't know if I can, Speaker 1 (05:36): I do keep it for all audiences. So I appreciate this is such concept. Speaker 2 (05:40): Yes. I was like, holy cow, I am a grownup and I still do this. And I had that realization that it wasn't going to go away. You know what I mean? So I was like, I have to figure out a way to live with this because I didn't want to hide it anymore. It was tiring. It's so tiring. Speaker 1 (05:59): Oh my gosh. And that's just, again, it's totally a coming out story in this weird way for, because that is what everyone describes is the burden of the secret and the burden of, I remember telling somebody here one time, I was like, you know what? The best part about coming out is you can just listen to whatever music you want to. I love that because I feel like there would definitely be things that was, and it's really strange because I've always been a weirdly flamboyant person in certain aspects, but then I feel like there would be certain things where I was like, I like this, but I don't want to admit that I like this because I think it's way too gay. This song is too gay for me to, and that is a crazy thing, but I really do think about it all the time when I'm just listening to whatever I want. Because it would also be that kind of internal struggle too. I don't think I would have a lot of secret things I listened to. It would just be like, I would remove that from the options almost. Like, well, I can't listen to that too gay. Speaker 1 (07:10): But anyway, I don't even remember where I just stole the point. Speaker 2 (07:14): Well, I think, and I don't know if you experienced this, so I started teaching at the art Academy last fall, and it was weird to go back there not being, because I was a covert stutter at the art academy, a student, and now I was going back to the art academy, not a covert, you know what I mean? So it was kind of weird, and it caused me some anxiety to have this new identity, even though nobody caress and nobody's thinking about it. Speaker 1 (07:43): But I think that's exactly the same thing with sexuality, because in general, especially when Speaker 2 (07:47): You're Speaker 1 (07:48): Talking about a place that's so progressive and liberal, obviously nobody cares. It's all in your own head. Nobody actually cares. Speaker 2 (07:56): I was just worried about having a huge block and starting out a word and somebody looking at me being like, what happened to you? Yeah. Were you in an accident or something? Speaker 1 (08:14): Were the pressures of teaching, did that in public speaking make it harder for you? Or is it just I Speaker 2 (08:21): Think for sure, and I think the idea of going back to a place where it had a different identity, that is the one that I have now. Even though it's not me, even though it's a small part of me, obviously the way that I speak or the way that anybody speaks is a very small part of who they are still. I was still having some anxiety about it, and Speaker 1 (08:49): Then that probably, does that make it worse? Does the anxiety? Yeah, Speaker 2 (08:52): Of course it does. And when a person decides to not be covert anymore, to not be a covert stutter, their stuttering increases. Speaker 1 (09:01): Oh, really? Speaker 2 (09:01): Yes. Because it's almost like, yeah, because trying to suppress something Speaker 1 (09:09): For Speaker 2 (09:09): So long that you get skilled at it. You know what I mean? And then once you make the decision to not do that anymore, it kind of has the freedom to be what it is. Speaker 1 (09:23): Yeah. Speaker 2 (09:23): Yeah. Speaker 1 (09:24): It's just impossible for me to not make these parallels constantly with sexuality when you Speaker 2 (09:30): Talk about it. Yeah. Well, I was making those same parallels in my speech therapy that I just finished. Speaker 1 (09:35): You Speaker 2 (09:36): Know what I mean? Those same parallels, Speaker 1 (09:39): The experience of it as you talk about it, you're just like, oh my God. It resonates so strongly with me in that way. And even the idea of, I think presenting in that sort of covert and not covert and the language of that, and even the way that homophobia kind of creeps in that I have to consciously not be sort of judgmental towards somebody who is super flamboyant, Speaker 2 (10:11): Or Speaker 1 (10:12): There's this idea of when you've built in hiding so long Speaker 2 (10:18): Into Speaker 1 (10:18): Your life Speaker 2 (10:19): That Speaker 1 (10:20): You start to be, how dare they not hide? I was like, that's almost the idea. I think on some level, and you'll see that kind of judgment come through in a lot of gay men, especially, I think about what they perceive as overly effeminate behavior, but it's always, I feel like it's always more about them than it is the other person. It's more about, oh, Speaker 2 (10:46): For sure. Speaker 1 (10:46): You're just deeply uncomfortable, Speaker 2 (10:48): Of course, with Speaker 1 (10:49): That side of yourself, Speaker 2 (10:50): And Speaker 1 (10:51): You spent so long trying to hide that, and it's like how much of it you can let out, and it just becomes really fraught. It Speaker 2 (11:02): Does, yeah. Speaker 1 (11:05): Just in relationship to you doing podcasts back in the day, that was like, how long ago was that? Probably. Speaker 2 (11:11): So that would've been, let's see, 2012, I think I did that for, yeah, I was really active. I went to the National Stuttering Conference, Speaker 1 (11:20): Hosted Speaker 2 (11:20): That podcast. I was like, I was leader of the Cincinnati, Speaker 1 (11:26): I remember this, Speaker 2 (11:26): Of the Cincinnati chapter of the National Stuttering Association. So I was really active Speaker 1 (11:31): In Speaker 2 (11:31): That world. I Speaker 1 (11:32): Couldn't help but make a connection. I don't know if there is one with, you're working now with audio based Speaker 2 (11:39): Stuff. Speaker 1 (11:39): I don't know if any way are Speaker 2 (11:41): Connected, but in Speaker 1 (11:42): My mind they seem to be, Speaker 2 (11:43): And there is kind of like, of course. Totally. And there was a piece that I did for the Contemporary Art Center, which is an audio tour, and I use my voice on Speaker 1 (11:57): Every Speaker 2 (11:57): Track, Speaker 1 (11:58): And Speaker 2 (11:58): I had to make a conscious decision, who am I playing here, and do I include my stutter or do I not? And I ultimately chose not to include it, so I edited out a lot of stuttering, which made a really humorous editing process. You know what I mean? I think it ultimately plays a role and it ultimately doesn't, Speaker 1 (12:25): You Speaker 2 (12:25): Know what I mean? I think, yeah. Speaker 1 (12:27): Well, I think I wondered about that when I was listening to it if you had edited it out. Speaker 2 (12:33): Yeah, Speaker 1 (12:34): I did. And I was thinking about it. Again, I know you can control it very masterfully, so it's like, I wasn't really sure, but I also also realized you probably thought, well, this is not what this is about also. And even in a way, your own identity is not really what that piece is about Speaker 2 (12:57): In Speaker 1 (12:57): A certain way. Speaker 2 (12:58): It didn't need to be me who was relaying the information. Speaker 1 (13:03): You Speaker 2 (13:04): Know what I mean? It didn't need to be Brittany. Speaker 1 (13:06): I mean, it almost doesn't sound like you. Speaker 2 (13:08): No. And that almost it is. I definitely changed my voice for I'm kind of playing a heightened version. I'm playing a hostess. Speaker 1 (13:23): Yes. Speaker 2 (13:24): You know what I mean? So I try to have a very comforting, soft voice, something that is welcoming you in Speaker 1 (13:32): Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, you said something about who am I playing? And I felt like you were taking on kind of a role in there for sure. Speaker 2 (13:41): In that Speaker 1 (13:41): Way. I was like, this doesn't sound like it's just not your natural speech patterns, at least it's much more like you're saying you're following that role of a host and Speaker 2 (13:56): Taking Speaker 1 (13:57): You along and Speaker 2 (13:58): That Speaker 1 (13:58): Sort of very, very warm vibe Speaker 2 (14:01): To it. And I have to be trusted too, because I'm telling you things. Speaker 1 (14:06): So Speaker 2 (14:06): I have to take this role of a non-threatening, welcoming, fully trusted kind of person, almost like a stewardess. Speaker 1 (14:19): Yeah. Yeah. I really love, my favorite part of it probably is the corner of the Unuse Museum when you look at the river. It was the most emotional part for me of just, and the sound editing is really great on that point, too, the glacier part of it, when you Speaker 2 (14:42): Talk Speaker 1 (14:42): About the history of the river, starting with a glacier, and you feel just these sounds, which are of course crazy because a glacier probably make much of a sound. So to be able to convey weight and massive for sure. So it's like the sound that's trying to communicate these abstract ideas, and it's just one of the many times where it sort of goes outside of the building itself and looking at this much bigger picture in an audio tour, which was just really, really great. Speaker 2 (15:16): Thanks. That was one of, it wasn't a part of the original tour. Speaker 1 (15:22): So Speaker 2 (15:24): When the Contemporary Arts Center decided to bring it back on a more permanent basis, they asked me to create how many more tracks? I made four more Speaker 1 (15:31): Tracks Speaker 2 (15:32): For it. That was one of the ones I added. Oh, Speaker 1 (15:35): Okay. Speaker 2 (15:36): Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:36): Yeah, that one. And also next to it, or sort, I think it might be the next one is the water fountain. That one too, of just the idea of the height of the building and the oceans that once covered this area, and just while you're taking a sip of water from this sort of rinky dinky hallway water found, it's sort of, Speaker 2 (16:00): And there's no windows. No. Speaker 1 (16:01): You know what I mean? So Speaker 2 (16:02): You don't have any connection to the outside world. Speaker 1 (16:05): But it was really funny too, because I think it did affect how I experienced the building in other ways. It created a framework that I was viewing the building in a different way. I remember kind of noticing, I was like, there used to be more of this Andrea Zittel stuff up here. You could see on the floor where the old markings were of that continuation. They kept some of the Andrea's little workspace, Speaker 2 (16:34): But Speaker 1 (16:35): There's just these very normal tables and chairs there now, and that tells such a narrative of a part of the idealism of we're going to have this artist created space. And then at a certain point you're just like, look, we just need some tables and chairs. It's like, this is great, Andrea. It's very, very cool. It's a very cool idea. I get it. But boys and tables and chairs would be nice. Speaker 2 (17:01): There's another part of the building that I highlight that on the fourth floor kind of close to what is now known as a contemplation room, Speaker 1 (17:08): Yes Speaker 2 (17:08): Or no, it's on the fifth floor. I'm sorry. There is a very thoughtful corner that Zaha Hadid, which is the architect of the Contemporary Arts Center, made a corner that is subtly not 90 degrees, but the museum needed to make that space like a useful resting area. So there's a TV there. There's a couple books there that I think that they change out according to what the exhibition is. And they have a bench there, and the bench is set in this corner. It's a normal bench at 90 degrees, but it awkwardly fits in this space, and it kind of highlights that. Speaker 1 (17:57): Yeah. You say something just like this build it will not be reckoned with. Speaker 2 (18:04): Yeah, totally. Yeah. Speaker 1 (18:05): It's just like, I don't care. I'm not Try to put your furniture in me, just I dare you. Speaker 2 (18:15): Yeah. Speaker 1 (18:16): I mean, that's so weird about that building and is just that it is from its start, the day it opened, it was immediately is always something that must be reckoned with. It is just always Speaker 2 (18:30): Something that must be, and even reckoning with on a super human physical level. I tripped down the stairs to the basement and the first thing I said was like, Speaker 1 (18:40): Right, so awkwardly spaced stairs. I mean, the minute you walk up the stairs, you're like, these are weirdly odd. Speaker 2 (18:46): The Speaker 1 (18:47): Height is too low between steps and it just feels so strange. It's like everything I know. I remember the show that I remember, it was maybe the second show in that space was the poly apple bomb show, and it was so gorgeous in that space because it was basically everything was on the floor, Speaker 2 (19:11): And it almost felt like it was kudzu taking over the original landscape kind of. Speaker 1 (19:19): Yeah. It was just like, this is the work that can work best in here. And the building could be the building. It didn't have to, Speaker 2 (19:28): But it's funny because almost like the art needs to fight with the architecture that it's in always. Speaker 1 (19:34): And then I think some of the best things are the things that just sort of acknowledge that and work with it. Speaker 2 (19:40): And Speaker 1 (19:40): Then just the show that's in there right now actually because it has so much about architecture and Speaker 2 (19:47): Stuff, Speaker 1 (19:49): That stuff is perfect in that space Speaker 2 (19:51): Because Speaker 1 (19:52): It's just acknowledging the strangeness of this space, just how to deal with it. I love when Joey had his show and he just shoved that Christmas tree behind that column. Speaker 2 (20:04): Yeah. It was really perfect. Speaker 1 (20:05): That's another thing that's just Speaker 2 (20:07): Exactly, Speaker 1 (20:08): Just cramming a tree back in this corner and this weird space that has been created. Speaker 2 (20:14): Yeah, I think those columns were, Zaha didn't want those columns there. Somebody told me this story, and so something like an engineer or somebody kind of forced her to put those columns there, and I Speaker 1 (20:31): Think Speaker 2 (20:32): That's why they're placed so awkwardly. Speaker 1 (20:34): Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things I didn't realize for a long time is there's the architect who comes up with this big grand design, and then there's other people who have to actually translate that to reality. So it's like you have the big name person who gets all the glory generally, and then you have the folks who have to basically come in and go, well, this has to actually stand up Speaker 2 (21:02): And Speaker 1 (21:02): Not fall down, and I have to figure out how to make this believable. Speaker 2 (21:06): Yeah. I think I remember, I might be making this up or somebody, but I think I remember hearing a story that I don't remember who the construction company was for the contemporary. I think it might've been Turner, but when they got the plans for it, they were like, what the hell? Speaker 1 (21:22): I'm sure. Speaker 2 (21:23): And that there had to be some more of a conversation about, yeah, okay, Speaker 1 (21:30): Yeah. How are we going to do this? Speaker 2 (21:31): For sure. Yeah. Speaker 1 (21:32): That's amazing. Well, let's go take a look at some art really fast Speaker 2 (21:37): And Speaker 1 (21:37): We're going to go check out we're Ragnar Karten sends the visitors, and then, because normally we record in the exhibitions, but because it's loud and we would be rather disruptive ourselves if we tried to go in there and just have a conversation in front of it, I feel like it would be a little rude. So we're going to go look at it and then come back. The visitors is a nine screen video installation where each screen shows a different musician. These musicians are isolated in separate rooms of a mansion, but they are playing a song together simultaneously as they listen to the other performers over headphones. Let's talk about Ragnar. Yes. Whose name I'm not sure I'm saying right, but Keon. Speaker 2 (22:59): Yes, I Speaker 1 (23:00): Think that's right. Speaker 2 (23:00): I think that's right too. Yeah. Speaker 1 (23:01): If he said it there would be that adorable Icelandic purr on the Rs. No. You know how when they Speaker 2 (23:08): Sayen Speaker 1 (23:09): Or something? Speaker 2 (23:10): Yeah. Speaker 1 (23:10): I have a great, I love that little, it's just a nice little trill. Speaker 2 (23:14): I have an Iceland friend and she lives with me for a month, and she's trying to get me to trail my Rs, which I cannot do. And she would send Snapchats of me attempting it to her. Icelandic friends, cracking Speaker 1 (23:24): Up. So mean. You said this is, you've seen it. Speaker 2 (23:31): This is my third time. Speaker 1 (23:32): Third time. So where else did you see it? Speaker 2 (23:34): So the first time I saw it was in la, March of 2016, and I saw it at the Broad, I think shortly. I think that was the Broad's first show. I think I just opened, and it was kind of a weird experience because you had to wait in line to even get inside the broad, and I'd never had that experience Speaker 1 (23:55): Viewing R before it was museum, right? Yeah. Usually, Speaker 2 (23:58): Oh, please come in. It was waiting in line to see Justin Timberlake or something. So it was kind of a really confusing Speaker 1 (24:04): Situation Speaker 2 (24:05): To Speaker 1 (24:05): Be Speaker 2 (24:05): Waiting in line to go see art. And also another kind of weird experience I've never had was with that piece. So when you are usually in a museum, people are pretty scattered about, people are just milling around. And I turned the corner to go into see the visitors. I didn't know I was walking into, and it's in a separate room, and you go in and there's people, there's a lot of people camping out, but literally camping out, sitting on the floor, there's people laying on their tummies on the museum floor to see this piece. And it was completely captivating. I had that same experience Speaker 1 (24:53): Where Speaker 2 (24:53): You go in and you didn't really want to leave. You know what I mean? But it's not like you're really anticipating. It's not like you're there because something big is going to happen. You know what I mean? You are there to experience what is happening and not even really expecting a big, it's a subtle meditative piece. Speaker 1 (25:19): Meditative is a very good word for it because I feel like, and what it's so interesting is it kind of forces that meditation on you whether you want it or not. I feel like I've watched a lot of people just again, walk in, you did not knowing what they were about to walk into and to watch it kind of transform them very quickly. I watch people walk in and there's this sort of, wait, what is this? And then Speaker 2 (25:44): It Speaker 1 (25:44): Only takes a few seconds and they kind of get it, and they're like, oh. And their whole kind of posture changes and they kind of relax into it, and then they start this sort of dreamy day walker thing, or it's kind of walking around and it's just the moment. I mean, for me, I think my experience of it was also I had heard this thing is amazing. I had heard all this hype about it, and usually that's very bad, I feel like, because usually you go into it and it's like it can never live up to your Speaker 2 (26:13): Expectations. Speaker 1 (26:14): But I remember seeing videos of it and being like, I get that this might be cool. I just can't figure out why. And it wasn't until I went into the room with it that I got it. I was like, oh, I see why. This is really amazing. And part of it is that's hard to convey is that it is so much about mean, not only the experience of being in the room with the scale of the videos, which is hard to replicate when you're watching a video on your computer because you're looking at these people probably pretty much life size, in some cases bigger than life. So there's that real human connection immediately with the people in the videos and the music. But that sense of the really specific sound of the videos coming from all these different sources, and it's like we're used to maybe a surround sound system and a movie theater, but it's a very different type of experience. It makes it feel like live performance. Speaker 2 (27:14): Oh, for sure. You are meant to be there. I think the piece is one of the most accessible works of art I've seen in a long time. Speaker 1 (27:24): Totally. Speaker 2 (27:25): Yeah. I was thinking about it. Why does it hold people's attention for so long if you're camped out? Because usually when you go see video art, I think people spend probably an average of a minute, but people were spending, they were watching the whole thing Speaker 1 (27:43): And the Speaker 2 (27:43): Whole thing's like an hour, and why is this piece so accessible? And I was just thinking, I don't know if it references the format of music video, Speaker 1 (27:52): You Speaker 2 (27:52): Know what I mean? And a format that people are super familiar with and a format that people are super comfortable with. And it's an endurance form. I used to go over to my grandparents. I had M T V, and I'd go there on Saturdays and I'd watch six hours of music videos. Speaker 1 (28:16): You Speaker 2 (28:16): Know what I mean? It's a captivating medium that's super accessible. Everybody knows what happens. And I think the idea too about the idea of the musician and the idea that there's always a barrier to it Speaker 1 (28:35): Too. Speaker 2 (28:35): You know what I mean? That everybody's always trying to get to the front at a concert Speaker 1 (28:40): Because Speaker 2 (28:41): People want to see the actual action of almost like a phenomenon of watching people make sound and making sound with an instrument that I think people get really fascinated by, especially people who don't play music. Watching somebody make music, I think is really fascinating. And the idea that instead of, because usually when you go watch music, there is a barrier, whether it's just 10 feet keeping you from the musicians and they're always in front of you. And this way, the way, and especially the way that it's set up here, art museum is, they're kind of like you are the center focus. Speaker 1 (29:30): You Speaker 2 (29:30): Know what I mean? And you're able to get, I think, because that the musicians are, they're bigger than life size, and you're able to see exactly what they're doing and able to get close. So I think that makes another form of intimacy that people usually don't experience with people playing music. Speaker 1 (29:56): Yeah. When you said that we are the center, it makes that title, the visitors become another. It makes me constantly think about myself and as you're walking around this space, and when you brought up the sort of idea of a music video, I hadn't really thought of that as a music video. It's sort of interesting, but it is, and it's kind of interesting because though typically when we think of a very M T V style music video, it's very flashy, lots of cuts, and of course, this has no cuts ever mean, but there's lots of different screens. So you become the editor in this way of you by walking around the space and moving through it, you are editing it, and when something becomes a little more interesting to you, you go move over in that space. And it becomes really fascinating because then also by moving around, you also become more aware of the sonic qualities of all of this stuff and how the sound is changing as you move through the space, which is another thing that that's something that just never happens in even a live performance. Typically when you go see a band play, it's going to sound different from which side of the room you're on a little bit. But for the most part, everybody's instruments are being fed through amps and stuff so that everybody's getting roughly the same mix. Speaker 2 (31:17): Yeah. You're not encouraged to get up and walk Speaker 1 (31:19): Around. Right, exactly. Speaker 2 (31:20): People would be like, excuse me, can you please take a seat? Speaker 1 (31:23): Yes, exactly. I just want to hear how it sounds over here. I want to see it from this angle. Speaker 2 (31:28): Our freedom as listeners is very limited in that way. When we do go see live music, that is totally turned upside down on its head here. Speaker 1 (31:40): So I think that's another thing that just makes it so exciting because it's just like you're saying, it's an experience you've never had before in a way that I've never been able to, even if I went to go see these people play on a stage, I wouldn't be able to walk around the stage with them, Speaker 2 (31:56): Which Speaker 1 (31:56): Is what it's Speaker 2 (31:57): Like. Speaker 1 (31:58): And it's like I've seen videos of people actually doing this in an orchestra where they stand at one side of the orchestra as it's playing a piece and move to the other side to hear how it changes the Speaker 2 (32:08): Sound. Oh, that's amazing. That's awesome. Speaker 1 (32:09): Because it's like the orchestra is arranged in a certain way so that the loudest things in the back generally, but if you're on the stage in the orchestra, it sounds totally different. And when you're over in this side, it's like you're going to hear all the things that are closest to you, so it changes the mix of it. So it makes it a really awesome piece to watch multiple times, because I always feel like it sounds a little bit different when we went in this time in Ragnar, the artist who's in a bathtub with a little guitar, or is it a ukulele? I can, Speaker 2 (32:45): I think it's a guitar. Speaker 1 (32:46): Okay. It is a guitar. In my mind, it got very small in my head here, but he's in the bathtub, and I think we were just over there at a part that I'm typically been on the opposite side of the room when it happens. Speaker 2 (33:00): And Speaker 1 (33:00): So it was like, oh, I've never heard it like this before. And then there was something else that I remember hearing. I'm like, oh, I'm usually by the cello. I've never caught this part because I'm always listening to this at this point, and it really changes it. And so it brings this life to something that could feel that isn't alive. Of course, at this moment, it's recorded, but it's done such a good job of capturing the life of the moment and translating it to us. It's just so amazing to watch. I think that's part of why there is such an amazing just effect of it on us in a really physical way. I think that's probably, when you're talking about it being so accessible, I think that's a big part of it because you can feel it in a way very directly that I think a lot of art tends to require maybe some cerebral Speaker 2 (33:59): Detachment Speaker 1 (34:00): And to divorce yourself and see it from this other angles and stuff. And this doesn't really, yeah, Speaker 2 (34:06): Because this piece allows you, this piece tells you exactly what I mean, and it's not hiding anything, and it's truly accessible to anybody. I feel like this is a work of art for people who don't like art. Speaker 1 (34:25): You Speaker 2 (34:25): Know what I mean? Which is a lot of people. Speaker 1 (34:28): It is. You're saying that when you're walking back up about how, I don't think a lot of people like art. Speaker 2 (34:33): I don't think a lot of people do art. I Speaker 1 (34:34): Think most people think they like art Speaker 2 (34:36): For sure, but Speaker 1 (34:37): I don't think a lot of people do. No, I think you're right about that. I mean, I've thought about that too, about, and I sometimes wish more people would just kind of be open about that fact, like, oh, I don't like art. Nobody would say that because you would sound like a madman. Speaker 2 (34:51): Yeah. You're not allowed to not like it. Speaker 1 (34:53): Well, and this is something that we're a little guilty of too, is this idea of you're constantly telling people that art is good for them, that it's eating your vegetables or something. Speaker 2 (35:05): For sure. Which is, Speaker 1 (35:06): That's no way to make people like art either. I mean, I would actively tell people art is bad for them over that because it's certainly more seductive. Speaker 2 (35:17): I think it's always a good experience because me and you are both, we're both educated in terms of what art is and how to read it. And I think it's always an interesting experience when you go to art museum with your family. You know what I mean? It's such an interesting experience and what your, because it's right, because usually you go to art museums with your friends who also art, who probably have several art history courses behind them. And I think it's, I always found it super interesting going to the art museum with my grandparents. Speaker 1 (35:51): You Speaker 2 (35:51): Know what I mean? And just them being like, what? Speaker 1 (35:54): Well, and I mean, I do that, but I also don't have to do that because I also work with the public. And so that's basically dealing with your family all the time. For Speaker 2 (36:03): Sure. Totally. Yeah. And Speaker 1 (36:04): So it's really fascinating to me to be sort of taken aback sometimes by going like, oh, what do you think about this painting? Don't like it. Speaker 2 (36:13): Okay. Speaker 1 (36:14): Why not? Too dark? Yeah. I don't like the colors too Speaker 2 (36:18): Dark. Speaker 1 (36:19): I mean, really, it's really crazy. And especially, Speaker 2 (36:22): But maybe they're right. Speaker 1 (36:24): I mean, from their perspective to them that looks too dark and Speaker 2 (36:28): Mean Speaker 1 (36:29): People, I feel like people most, the average person has this totally different way of reading art than I do, certainly. Speaker 2 (36:36): Oh, of Speaker 1 (36:36): Course. That their sense of what color should be is turned up to a crazy degree. And anything that is not super saturated, super over the top feels like so muted. And so I've heard people tell me that, oh, this painting's so drab. And I'm just like, this doesn't look drab to me, but I guess I just know what to expect from 17th century paintings or something. And it's this weird thing where people are at this point. I mean, it's one of the weird things that the popularity of things like impressionism and post-impressionism has really had an effect on the public is that they do sort of expect that kind of heightened color from everything, and it's a little hard to bring 'em back. And then it's also, it's hard to be like, no, this was radical at this time. This is crazy that somebody made this that look like this. Because to them it's like anything earlier than impressionism all looks institutional. Right. Speaker 2 (37:37): Yeah. I guess bringing this back to the Renar piece, do you think that in a way a lot more people understand music? Speaker 1 (37:48): Oh, totally. Speaker 2 (37:49): Yeah. When Speaker 1 (37:49): You were talking about the accessibility, I thought that same thing, which is that, and actually it's one of the reasons I use music a lot when we talk about art, people have a language to talk about music for Speaker 2 (38:01): Sure. Speaker 1 (38:02): And that's a big part of it. They're used to talking about music Speaker 2 (38:06): Well, and the accessibility that people have to music in their cars, in their houses, you know what I mean? Where it's a lot easier to wear, see art, it's like a trip to the art museum. Speaker 1 (38:24): I mean, to see it certainly in person, Speaker 2 (38:26): For sure. Yes. And Speaker 1 (38:27): Then even it's like I might look at art on my computer or Speaker 2 (38:34): Online. Speaker 1 (38:35): I don't think most people do that, right? No, the average person probably. Speaker 2 (38:38): I definitely do that too, but it's definitely not my preferred way. No, Speaker 1 (38:42): No. Speaker 2 (38:43): But sometimes I'd rather listen to the track than seeing the person live. Speaker 1 (38:50): You Speaker 2 (38:50): Know what I mean? In terms of music where the actual art is totally accessible. Speaker 1 (38:57): Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's also, I mean, this is a different conversation probably, but because we have grown up in a time period where the vast majority of the music we have experienced has been recorded music. I remember, I think I was reading these liner notes to some early electronic music collection I had, and it's this intro by Brian Eno, and he's like to talk about what is and isn't. Electronic music is a really strange conversation because probably anyone alive reading this right now, that's most of the vast majority of what you've experienced is electronic music. Speaker 2 (39:36): Yes. Speaker 1 (39:38): We didn't grow up in a time where music was like, you go down and hear the band, or your mother has sheet music and plays this on the piano, and you sing along. For many people, for many years, that was music. And it's like the invention of recording has changed that so much that that is the real thing now to us is the recording. Speaker 2 (40:03): That's Speaker 1 (40:03): The real thing. And when you go see your band perform, you're just waiting for them to play the thing that you already like. Speaker 2 (40:11): And then we have a standard that the band should play it to the electronic standard. You know what I mean? Speaker 1 (40:21): And if they don't do it, it's like, oh, well, it's better on the Speaker 2 (40:24): Yeah, for sure. Speaker 1 (40:26): So way off track, Speaker 2 (40:30): A lot of editing Speaker 1 (40:33): Or not. Let's just see. So you've seen it, this is your third time seeing the piece, how I know this installation is a little different than a lot of the other installations of it. And how did you think it affected the overall piece? Speaker 2 (40:51): Okay, I'm trying to think. So when I saw out the Broad, in LA, there's nine channels, Speaker 1 (40:58): So Speaker 2 (40:59): There's nine screens. So they were placed, there were some screens that were in the middle of the room. There were some that were on the perimeter, Speaker 1 (41:08): So Speaker 2 (41:09): You did kind of have this natural maze that you could move around. And then the second time I saw it was at Ssf OA in San Francisco, and I think it was set up in the same way where there was maybe one screen in the middle. And then here at the art museum, it's all on the perimeter, so it's kind of making one large room, Speaker 1 (41:35): You know Speaker 2 (41:36): What I mean? That you're then looking in. And I think the idea is we're also experiencing architecture at the same time because each channel shows you a different room Speaker 1 (41:48): And Speaker 2 (41:49): Kind of shows you what the room looks like. You kind of get a sense what the room is about. And I think in LA and San Francisco, it kind of felt like the way the channels were set up kind of made those individual rooms too, that you were able to walk and explore. So that's kind of different, but I, because the idea is I think experiencing this piece, part of the experience is watching other people watch it. So it's a piece that highlights humans and the ones who are actually in the video, and then the ones who are watching it. And I really like watching. People are still watching it. They're almost in a trance. You know what I mean? And I felt weird when I was watching it with you and us talking about and whispering about things. I felt moving as much as, or just being a disruption because of the trance that everybody else was in. So Speaker 1 (43:04): Yeah, it becomes very, I don't want to say holy, but Speaker 2 (43:09): No, but there is Speaker 1 (43:12): Reverent. Speaker 2 (43:13): Yeah, totally. Speaker 1 (43:14): It kind of creates a sort of sense of reverence Speaker 2 (43:16): Pretty Speaker 1 (43:17): Quickly that that's the other thing. And I think it is that kind of repetition of it and the sort of meditative state that we were talking about, that it puts you in this like, well, this is kind of serious, but Speaker 2 (43:35): It's so playful at the same time. Speaker 1 (43:36): Yeah, yeah, totally. There Speaker 2 (43:38): Is one person is playing a guitar in a bed, and there's somebody sleeping in it next to him, and somebody's in a bathtub and there's people hanging out on a porch, and there's Speaker 1 (43:54): An old man asleep on. Speaker 2 (43:56): Yeah, for sure. I Speaker 1 (43:57): Love the pyrotechnics guy who's always asleep. Speaker 2 (44:02): There's a comfortableness about it that I think makes you feel like you can be comfortable, even though you're in an art museum, which isn't the most comfortable of spaces. You know what I mean? Yeah. Speaker 1 (44:15): Mean we wish it was more, but Speaker 2 (44:17): It isn't meant you're not meant to lounge on a couch. I've never seen anybody lay down on the art museum floor to look at a painting. Speaker 1 (44:30): Yeah, probably not. Speaker 2 (44:31): I Speaker 1 (44:31): Mean, other than a child Speaker 2 (44:34): Probably. Yeah, I would feel weird going into art museum and just plopping down on the floor with my legs out looking at a painting. But that piece invites you to do that. Speaker 1 (44:46): And Speaker 2 (44:46): I've kind of seen in two different showings of it, people doing that camping out. Speaker 1 (44:53): Yeah. Speaker 2 (44:54): It Speaker 1 (44:54): Was funny when you mentioned the camping out earlier, I was thinking about other pieces that, and I didn't see it in person, but I remember hearing about it and reading about it, but I probably try to pronounce his name right, but Ola, far Eliasson, it's also Icelandic, right? Speaker 2 (45:08): Yeah. Speaker 1 (45:10): The weather project that the Tate Modern from years ago, that was the giant sun. It was a half ball on this mirrored ceiling. Speaker 2 (45:19): I don't think I know that piece. Speaker 1 (45:20): Okay. Yeah. So it was this huge space, and it was this giant glowing Speaker 2 (45:26): Half Speaker 1 (45:27): Ball that was bright, yellow, glowing, Speaker 2 (45:31): And Speaker 1 (45:31): Then that was the only light source in the room, and then the ceiling was mirrored, and that was on it. So it looked, gave the illusion of this big floating sun Speaker 2 (45:40): In the Speaker 1 (45:40): Middle of this room. And then I think it used fog and other things to kind of help obscure that a little bit and make the illusion feel a little more real, and people would just lay on the floor underneath it Speaker 2 (45:53): And Speaker 1 (45:53): Look up. And also partially because there's this mirror, so they're seeing themselves as well and feeling very far away too. It's this really trippy sensation. But I feel like it was another piece that was sort of surprisingly accessible for what it was. People really loved it and just were like, oh, it was very famously people just hanging out there all day, just laying under this fake sun. Speaker 2 (46:23): Do you feel like that in a way that R nurse piece might have that same effect of being transported into this house that this piece is happening in? Speaker 1 (46:35): I do think that the architecture of this space has another, isn't a whole other aspect that we Speaker 2 (46:40): Haven't Speaker 1 (46:40): Really talked about because it is clearly this mansion, it communicates that pretty clearly, like all the marble busts around. Yes, Speaker 2 (46:50): It's a bizarre house, and not that it's bizarre as anything's out of place are where it's almost like it's a caricature of what I think of a 19th century mansion, if that makes sense. Speaker 1 (47:07): Well, it also, and maybe what makes it a little accessible too, is there's something a little faded about its glory. Speaker 2 (47:15): It Speaker 1 (47:15): Looks just a little bit rundown for Speaker 2 (47:16): Sure. There's peeling paint and peeling wallpaper, but the interior is so weirdly consistent. Speaker 1 (47:24): You Speaker 2 (47:25): Know what I mean, of a Victorian, there's lots of ruffles. And Speaker 1 (47:33): Yeah, it was very decorated Speaker 2 (47:35): Too. Speaker 1 (47:36): There's lots of decor and just guilt mirrors and things. And that's something else about the piece that I think starts to become appealing to people is the more they watch it, they start to kind of understand the architecture of the space a little bit better. And as you watch it, that becomes a little more clear. There's a point where the one piano player walks out of frame Speaker 2 (48:01): And Speaker 1 (48:01): He appears at the other piano and you're like, oh my God, they've been in the same room this whole time. And then you start looking, you're like, wait, that mirror is in the background of this piece, and I can actually see part of that piano in this other one. And you've been thinking of them as separate spaces for a long time, and you kind of start to wonder like, oh, well, how close are these people? And then as they leave their spaces and walk through, you start to understand the proximity to the rooms and what was upstairs, what was downstairs. Speaker 2 (48:30): And Speaker 1 (48:32): That becomes a little bit of another trick that I think is fun to watch and people you're talking about people still sticking around and watching this thing that they might not otherwise certainly would not spend that much time in front of a painting. And one of the things I found interesting is the first time I watched it to completion watched it end is it ends and somebody comes around and turns off all the cameras. I mean, that sounds like a really boring thing, but a lot of people stuck around for it because it became a little game as well, because it started to be this empty house, and then all of a sudden you saw a little bit of movement somewhere and you go, wait, what was that? And then people start, I think it was over here, and then people start moving around. You start watching where other people are looking, and then you would see this guy come through and he's humming or whistling the tune still. And so he would come in and just switch off the camera, and then you're like, okay, well, where else is he going to go? And first you have all of these options, and then they keep getting smaller and smaller, so it becomes actually kind of more fast paced in a way that you're have less things to look at that you have to like, oh, which one is he going to appear at? So even that became really fun for people to watch, which again, it doesn't sound like it should be as fun Speaker 2 (49:49): As it's Speaker 1 (49:52): Has no right to be that fun. Speaker 2 (49:56): But it becomes, even though the piece isn't obviously an interactive piece, it's very kind of interactive. But Speaker 1 (50:05): Man, that's the kind of interactive pieces. It is really funny because somebody, I was reading this blog entry, somebody wrote, they wrote it probably a few days ago, but I just saw it about their time at the museum, and they were talking about that piece, and they referred to it as an interactive exhibit. And I was like, well, it's not really, but now that you're saying that I was being a semantic jerk over here, well, actually, but I think you're right. It is in the way that you're participating just by moving through the space in a way, it's way more meaningful Speaker 2 (50:39): Of Speaker 1 (50:39): A interactive than when somebody's like, here, you can turn this dial. I don't know. There's so much bad interactive art that it's just like somebody's like, you can do this thing. And I'm like, I don't want to do that thing. Speaker 2 (50:53): Do you think that this piece, that it is interactive, but there's something about it that doesn't cross your personal boundaries or asks you to cross them in any way? Speaker 1 (51:03): That's true. Maybe I do have, I don't like when I'm at a concert and people want me to clap either. So maybe I have an issue with being like, I have a lot of things about protocol and what is and isn't appropriate of an audience member versus the person putting on the show or something. So it probably is more about me. You're right. Speaker 2 (51:23): Yeah. Do you think that this piece offers its viewer, its viewers, its listeners a good amount of freedom? Speaker 1 (51:31): Yeah, it is. I think that's part of it is just the interaction of it is just, it's built in to the work and it isn't forced, and it Speaker 2 (51:41): Doesn't Speaker 1 (51:42): Feel like by the fact that you walk into a big room and you simply can't see everything from that one space, Speaker 1 (51:51): It encourages you to move around. So that's nice. And also just the sound that you'll be on one side of the room and suddenly you'll hear a voice coming from the other side of the room and you go, Ooh, what's that? And then it makes you want to get up and move around it. So yeah, it's built into the work in a way that is elegant and doesn't feel forced. Well, is there anything else you wanted to mention about the Ragnor or anything else you want to talk about or anything else you want to plug? I never ask people if they have stuff they want Speaker 2 (52:20): To promote. Oh, stuff they have to plug. I'm working on a sound piece for Reverb Gallery for July. Oh, cool. I think the opening's July 12th. Speaker 1 (52:31): Nice. Speaker 2 (52:31): Yeah, so working on, that's sound piece. Speaker 1 (52:35): That's your thing now. Speaker 2 (52:36): I know. It's so weird. It's truly weird to change mediums. Yeah. But I guess I just have say that regular, I think it's a great piece. It was definitely my favorite piece that I probably have seen in the last two years probably. Speaker 1 (52:52): Yeah, I mean, it is definitely, I don't dunno if you saw the William KenRidge installation when it was here. Yeah, I did. And that was like, whoa, Speaker 3 (53:00): This is so Speaker 2 (53:01): Cool. Speaker 1 (53:02): And then I went up and saw the Ragnar piece and I was like, Kentridge your chopped liver to me. Now this is like blows that out of the water. It's sad that I have to immediately pit video art against each other, against each other, but I did totally. I was immediately, I thought that was cool. Wow. Speaker 2 (53:21): I want you to rank every work of art in this museum. Oh Speaker 1 (53:25): My gosh. I actually Speaker 2 (53:27): Was. Could you do that? Speaker 1 (53:28): I had an idea for a podcast recently, which I didn't do. I mean, maybe I could still do it, but it was basically how to have a battle royale with art pitting a hundred artworks. I think you should like a hundred artworks against each other. And how would that work out? I thought it would, again, the sake of being a Speaker 2 (53:51): Podcast, Speaker 1 (53:52): It would have to just be purely subjective and just my opinion of, or whoever's there, Speaker 2 (53:56): Could you do, I want you to do it in brackets, could you do brackets, list all the pieces and then think Speaker 1 (54:05): That would be the smart way to do it? Speaker 2 (54:07): Definitely. Speaker 1 (54:08): I was trying to do it like the video game Fortnite, and I was organizing the museum like a map, and then if you started with the pieces where they were, and I had taken the first floor and second floor and laid them, so they became one floor. And then I was going to try to follow the Fortnite rules of shrinking circles, but it was also a little more complicated. I had to figure out how artwork could move, what's the rules for this? I don't know if that would work out. Brackets would make a lot more sense. Speaker 2 (54:39): Yeah, Speaker 1 (54:39): The seating is going to be really important though of Yes, Speaker 2 (54:42): I know. How do you do that? Speaker 1 (54:43): Yeah, that's going to be really complicated because ultimately it's like you kind of want to compare things first Speaker 2 (54:50): So Speaker 1 (54:50): That it feels a little more fair. It feels weird to just start with comparing a duveneck to the Zaha Hadid piece on the third floor, right? It's like, I don't even know where do you even start with that? But of course, that's also the fun part of it is when it does get down to those kind weird comparisons and you have to make a choice and you're like, oh, I guess this ones, Speaker 2 (55:10): I feel like that'd be a great project to make new freshmen to art school do. Okay. Speaker 1 (55:19): Well, it would be great if you also had to, I mean, the value of that is in just talking through, right? Speaker 2 (55:27): Yeah. Speaker 1 (55:27): Because anytime you have to make those kind of value judgements, it's like the actual value judgments to me are irrelevant. It doesn't really matter what you think is the best. And the idea of what is and isn't best changes so often and over time is like, who caress what we think was, I mean, that stuff is really fascinating to me about why something becomes celebrated and why somethings don't. And it's not usually a lot of times what endures is not always the same. So that is sort of what is important is irrelevant. But I think what those conversations you have about it and that talking it through, and it usually makes you realize what you think and why you like things and like, oh, why do I think this is better than Speaker 2 (56:16): This? Speaker 1 (56:18): What's my justification for it? I don't know. Well, thank you Brittany, for joining me today. Speaker 2 (56:23): This is fun. It's fun too. Yeah, this is great. Thank you. Speaker 1 (56:27): Thanks. Yeah. I know I had a blast. Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. The special exhibitions on view right now are Ragnar Kisen, the visitors and scenes from Western culture and Terracotta Army legacy of the First Emperor of China. If you'd like to come check out the video installation that Brittany and I looked at today, why not join us for a gallery experience on Sunday, June 3rd at 3:00 PM That's all about Ragnar Denson's, the visitors. Watch a segment of the video before having a conversation about your experience. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Al by Lau, and as always, please rate and review us on iTunes. And if you don't use iTunes, why not tell a friend about the show? I'm Russell. And this has been Art Palace produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.