Speaker 1 (00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:03): I had a great teacher who said, dance is just making the ordinary extraordinary. And I thought that was a great way to think of it. Speaker 1 (00:22): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's cool person is Kim Poppa, executive director of Poems Inc. Why don't you just let people know a little bit about what poems is and what it does? Speaker 2 (00:54): So poems, the first question I always get is What does it mean? Which it means absolutely nothing. It is just my last name and then the co-founder Jones, and we smushed our names together. We couldn't think of anything better, and it stuck Speaker 1 (01:12): Clever. Not Speaker 2 (01:13): That clever, but Speaker 1 (01:14): I've never known that though. That's so funny. I did not. I was just like, I didn't think to ask that question, but now I'm glad you explained it. Speaker 2 (01:23): Yeah, people ask it because there's the PW N you've been pod for gamers. Speaker 1 (01:29): Yes, yes. Speaker 2 (01:30): And then in Spanish there's bonus, which is a real word. So people, Speaker 1 (01:36): What's it mean? Speaker 2 (01:37): I can't remember. I think to put on, or I dunno, something that really wouldn't make sense for a dance company Speaker 1 (01:42): Thing. Right, right. Yeah. Speaker 2 (01:44): So it means nothing. And we were founded in 2008, so 10 years ago, and on a whim we were in school at N K U and both B F A dance majors and trying to figure out what it was we wanted to do. We thought we would do the traditional modern dance or dancer thing, go audition for some companies in the west. Speaker 2 (02:11): And in our last semester of school, we took a class with a professor who's still at N K U, one of my good friends and mentors, Daryl Harris. And it was a class about theater for social justice, and we learned about Augusto Boal and these people in the seventies doing amazing work that used theater in particular to elevate voices in the community, to engage the community. And I remember being like, oh, that spoke to my heart. That's the thing I wanted to do. And I kind of didn't even know I could do because I didn't see it around here necessarily. And so Lindsay and I were like, well, let's just start a 5 0 1 C three kind of the next day with some, I think some naivety that don't think, I don't know that I would do that nowadays because I know so much, but we didn't know anything, so we were just great. Fill out the forms. We're a dance company. So we started poems on a whim, on a kind of like, let's see where this goes. At the time I began a career as a high school teacher and she was working at the c a C. So we both kind of had these fallback plans Speaker 2 (03:39): And bones was more of a hobby, a passion, and now it's grown and become my real job, which is great and really fun to be able to say that that passion, those ideas of dance and volunteerism that I get to do now on a daily basis are the things that I'd want to be doing. It's a cliche, but if I were an accountant, those are the things I would leave my job to go to do. Speaker 1 (04:16): What was harder about it than you would've expected? You said you would maybe not have done it with the naivete, or you only did it with that naivete. So what were the challenges you discovered quickly? Speaker 2 (04:27): They weren't challenging in the moment because we were just, the stakes were so low and because we didn't know any better, we just tried and failed. I mean, that was our biggest success was that we were so small and so nimble that no matter what we did, the stakes were so low so we could fail and nobody really knew. Well, Speaker 1 (04:49): That's a nice, yeah, I mean, that's a nice way to sort of grow naturally, I think is a smart thing. Just start small and you kind of figure it out as you go, and it's like you're saying, keep the stakes low. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Speaker 2 (05:05): And so I guess to reflect on it, it would be hard to do now because now I know better now I would second guess myself much more than I did in the moment. Speaker 1 (05:19): What was a failure that you wouldn't do, that you wouldn't repeat? Speaker 2 (05:24): Oh, right off the bat, we had a great friend who helped us, a lawyer who helped us to look over our 5 0 1 C three submission. And I think the form has changed now. Someone told me, but there was a section that was like, what would your daily activities look like? So now I'm understanding that that means like 50% of my day is spent in meetings and kind of quantifying, I would do administrative work, I would do rehearsal, blah, blah, blah. But Lindsay and I filled it out and were like, 9:00 AM wake up, have breakfast, eat a bagel, 10:00 AM pet my cat. Just stuff that, of course, I'm not even making that up. The I r s would have been like, what? So Josh looked at that and then he was like, I don't think the i r s needs to know about your breakfast Speaker 1 (06:18): And cat petting. Speaker 2 (06:19): Right. But yeah, just simple stuff like that where we just didn't know the verbiage of business because quite honestly, still, I have never taken a business course, but a large part of my day is running a business and doing administrative work, but my degree is in dance. Which doesn't necessarily prepare you for invoicing. No, Speaker 1 (06:48): No, it does not. I know, I mean, I have a similar, it's, I have a fine art degree, but yeah, there's a lot of my day. It's also writing contracts and things Speaker 2 (06:59): For Speaker 1 (06:59): Stuff I would never thought I would be doing was certainly unprepared to do. But luckily you just kind of figure it out. You Speaker 2 (07:08): Figure it out. And I think that's the nice part of how creativity does influence the administrative work is that you are in creativity. In my dance world, I'm always trying, failing, reflecting, trying fail, just that creative circle. And I think that to apply that sometimes to the business world is nice. Yeah, Speaker 1 (07:32): I agree. Speaker 2 (07:32): Yeah, Speaker 1 (07:33): I think about that all the time too, because we have a good mix of people with different backgrounds here, and we have a good handful of people who, like me, come from a fine art world. And one of the things I've noticed about those of us is we don't necessarily, I think get married to ideas quite as quickly Speaker 2 (07:51): As Speaker 1 (07:51): Some other folks might because of that. Because especially if they came from, and I'm sure performance is similar, but you're often putting your ideas up and having them scrutinized already. Speaker 1 (08:05): And I think with art, it's not uncommon to just start working on something, get halfway through it. All of a sudden you realize this little part of it that was an afterthought actually ends up becoming the most interesting part of it. And you have to be willing to go, oh, all this other stuff I spent all this time on isn't actually as interesting as this, so we're going to scrap all of that and focus on this instead. And I think that's a really hard thing to switch your brain into if you're just not used to doing it. Speaker 2 (08:36): Right. Yeah, it is. And I'm always curious about visual artists too, because I feel like you guys are, you really get into that critique, I think, a little deeper than we do in performance. Speaker 1 (08:51): Oh, really? Speaker 2 (08:55): I don't know if this is true, but I wonder if it's a little softer in performance only because we are the art. Speaker 1 (09:01): You are the person. Absolutely. Speaker 2 (09:03): So I remember having to really separate that out too. I mean, I think this is dark, but that's why a lot of dancers have eating disorders. It's not your body that someone's critiquing, but it kind of is. Your body is the art. So I think we are maybe a little softer in our critique. Hard to say. Speaker 1 (09:28): Well, and exactly. And I think with an actor, it's the same kind of thing too where it's like, yeah, you are the product in this weird way that's definitely different to a visual artist where you're making this thing. And of course, it can be personal, and obviously people make personal work that they think is wrapped up in them. And I think that there is still some of putting on kid gloves and walking on eggshells that happens in critiques. But at the same time, I think it's not uncommon for professors to try to break people of that pretty quickly and to just be like, I mean, it's pretty common to be brutal. I mean, I think everybody has had an experience where somebody runs out of room crying in a critique. I mean, I think everybody I know who's been through art school is like, oh yeah, we had somebody cry. It happens pretty often because people can be really brutally honest. But yeah, I think you're right that it is a little less personal. So that probably does make us a little more comfortable with being like, yeah, I'm not interested in this. Which is maybe a little harder to do to somebody's face when you're saying, yeah, you look stupid when you do this. Yeah, that's exactly right. Speaker 2 (10:41): Yeah, Speaker 1 (10:43): When you raise your leg like that, it looks real. Real. I didn't Speaker 2 (10:45): Like it Speaker 1 (10:46): Real bad. Speaker 2 (10:47): Real Speaker 1 (10:47): Bad. But I mean, the thing that was, it was really funny too, because one of the things in critiques that happens too is somebody comes in and they usually will tell you what they were going for. Well, I'm trying to make something that's like, this is inspired by this and blah. And they talk and they talk and they talk. And then usually somebody right after be like, Nope, it's not doing that. Speaker 2 (11:08): Didn't see it. Speaker 1 (11:09): Nope. I mean, that's great, but that's not what you've done here. That's fine. That sounds nice. And what you've done is nice, but they're not the same thing. Speaker 2 (11:18): That does happen often in the dance world. I think it can very heady and often that's pretty cool for the artist, but sometimes it's not as exciting for your audience. Speaker 1 (11:34): You're like, well, that's fine, but that's not at all what we're looking at. And it's like, yeah, I think that's one of the things. And some of us here have more of an art history background, and they maybe approach things looking at the art from historical perspective. And then I tend be more interested in the nuts and bolts of it. How did this thing get made and what's the artist doing here and why did they make these decisions to do this? And I think that's given me a healthy skepticism of anything an artist tells me. And I think sometimes on the historical side, they'll maybe take that a lot more seriously. Well, the artist said this. I'm Speaker 2 (12:17): Like, Speaker 1 (12:18): Look, I spent four years sitting in rooms with artists telling me lots of garbage. Speaker 2 (12:23): Do you think that a lot of those stories just came after the fact? Once Speaker 1 (12:27): Some of them, Speaker 2 (12:28): Yeah, Speaker 1 (12:28): Most definitely. Some of them, I don't want to say all of them. I think there were genuinely misguided people who just, and I'm sure it happened to me. I'm not being above it. I remember doing things and I had this really specific idea that was fueling it, and people are like, that is not what I'm getting out of this. Again, it was not even a critique of I don't like this. Or even, it's like, I think this is interesting, but it's not what you just talked about. So I think it's just so possible for artists to be just wrong about their own work. And sometimes they're working on this sort of instinctive, they're following instinct, this is my instinct is to do this. And sometimes they have really good instincts, and then it's their own analysis of what they're doing is not actually as in tune. Right? Speaker 2 (13:22): Yeah. Well, because instincts are often hard to articulate. That's why they live in our bodies versus in our verbiage. Speaker 1 (13:31): Right. Well, and I had somebody who, a teacher who told me once that it was in a color theory class, and she said, a lot of the things we're going to talk about in this class, you probably have good instincts for, and you probably don't need a lot of this, but when your instincts fail, this is what you kind of go back to and you look at this and go, oh, this might help you realize what's going on and what's failing. So some of those things are always interesting too. Speaker 2 (14:04): That's a good perspective from that professor. Speaker 1 (14:07): Yeah. Thanks Paige. Thanks, Paige. Speaker 2 (14:09): Good job. Yeah, she's Speaker 1 (14:09): Still there. Is there anything, any sort of similar thing in dance where you have, I don't know, that sort of idea of how instinct influences things? Speaker 2 (14:19): Yeah. Well, that's a really interesting question because what I just said I think is true, that instinct lives in our body. So for example, with poems, we do work arts and healing work. And so we work at the VA hospital each week with some veterans, and then we also visit hospice and work in bereavement care or work with patients there for end of life facilitation. And then often we work with women who are in recovery as well. So all of that work is about just that. It's about tapping back into what we feel and can't articulate. So most of the veterans we're working with are have some P T S D, have some traumatic brain injury, have these things that are living in their bodies, but that may not just be popping out of their mouths to articulate how they're feeling necessarily. So our work is more about how to get those things out in movement Speaker 2 (15:31): And express them in ways that we can't always say because we just either don't have the words or don't even know that they need to get out of there. I always think about it as if I broke my finger when I was a kid, I could point to it right now and say, Russell, look at this finger. It's a little crooked. And you'd be like, oh. And you could see that scar, that wound, but there are so many things that we can't see but that still are affecting our bodies. They've changed us, they've shifted us. And so they also need attention and care and healing. And particularly at hospice, it's interesting because it's arts and healing, but the goal of hospice is not to heal anyone. It's more about that emotional healing, the idea of maybe reflecting on a lifetime and finding those memories, that joy, bringing peace of mind at the end of life. It's so healing like the mind versus the body. Speaker 1 (16:42): So what do those programs look like when you do a hospice program? I'm assuming mobility is not their strongest. That's probably quite limited. Speaker 2 (16:54): Yeah, you're exactly right. Spot on. It can look a lot of different ways. Sometimes it's just going in and having conversations with patients. A lot of people just want a visitor and then moving into maybe a guided meditation where they can, I usually ask a question, how are you feeling today? And that could be physical or emotional. Then doing, there's a lot of research that says that even imagining movement still does things to the body. There's stories about, there's some guided imagery stories that we will misquote, but about golfers who have never, they don't use a ball. They just imagine this stroke, and then they do that for X amount of weeks, and then they go and actually can hit the ball better when the ball is put in front of them, imagined it in their mind without doing it physically. Speaker 2 (18:02): So it could look like that, but sometimes patients want us to dance for them. There's a story. So either we go in and teach our alone or with a co-teacher. And my co-teacher, Ian and I were in once, and there was a couple, a woman and her husband, and she was non-communicative, but he asked if we could do a waltz for them to their wedding song. So that one was pretty deep. Ian and I were waltzing to what a wonderful world, and looked over and they were holding hands, and that was, I guess I leave there and I'm like, man, why do they let us do this? Because it's so powerful and we're so grateful for being there that sometimes it feels, I don't know, I don't want to say we're not qualified providing art, and we are qualified for that, but it just feels like a much deeper kind of therapeutic experience that I never would've thought having a dance company would've provided. Speaker 1 (19:18): Yeah, I didn't know, and I didn't know until right now that you did this kind of thing. So how did it start? How did you get into that? Speaker 2 (19:25): Mainly through the Cincinnati Arts Association. So they started the program at the VA hospital, I believe four years ago now. And we were part of the pilot program there, and it's grown ever since. Yeah, there's stories like that, this deep heartwarming experiences. And then there are stories of the guys at the va. One time they had seen Jersey Boys, Speaker 1 (19:59): I guess Speaker 2 (19:59): The musical would come through town, and so sometimes we're doing this kind of meditative, yogic, deep breathing, Qigong, really kind Speaker 1 (20:08): Of Speaker 2 (20:09): Deep body work. But then one of the gentlemen was like, can we learn choreography from Jersey Boys next week? So that's what we did. So I mean, it's hard to say exactly what we do. I think that it's really patient based. It's really based upon what they are asking for and want in the moment. And even I have such a great team of teachers who can even gauge that kind of as soon as they step into the room, if it feels like a slower day, we're going to kind of do some slower stuff. Speaker 1 (20:43): But that seems very fitting with, I don't know, it seems like there's an element of improvisation already there that you're kind of willing to work with, and that seems like just a part of it to where if somebody has this totally different idea, well, let's do this. And just being able to be like, okay, let's do that. That seems actually, even if that thing is choreographed dancing from Jersey Boys in a way that's more in the spirit of just being going with the moment. Right. Speaker 2 (21:16): Yeah, Speaker 1 (21:17): That makes a lot of sense. Speaker 2 (21:18): Yeah, no, I'm grateful that I have teachers that I feel like they can turn on the dime and do that kind of stuff because it's definitely, I think a lot of our work is more about, even when we're working with kids, is more about that social emotional learning Speaker 1 (21:36): Part. Speaker 2 (21:36): And of course they'll learn dance along the way, but it's more about how do we help create resilient kids or adults who feel free to express themselves kind of a baseline of wellness. I think that comes along with even feeling free to express yourself. Speaker 1 (21:59): Yeah, I was going to ask, that was kind of heading in where my mind was going to, which is what are some of the challenges in trying to get people to dance? Speaker 2 (22:08): Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think the biggest challenge is that people think they can't do it. And I get that. I mean, I do not consider myself a visual artist in any way. I would say I cannot draw, which Speaker 1 (22:24): Of Speaker 2 (22:24): Course I can. Anybody can to a certain extent. I'm never going to be a professional artist, but even to say that is not fair. So I guess a question that I am always proposing to people who feel like they can't dance, it's two parts. So one being where does movement end and dance begins? Because if you, and we raise our hand, that's maybe movement, or I'm sorry. Yeah, that's a movement, that's a gesture. That's like a human thing to do. But if we start to put it to an eight count, if we start to put some music, if we start to add a little direction to it, then someone might walk by and say, oh, they're dancing. And I don't know the answer to that. I really do propose it not in a flippant way that I'm like, I dunno, where does movement become dance? And then also when we first started the company, we asked people why they don't go see dance. It's kind of some informal market research in time and money and not knowing where it was were all things that people brought up, which seemed pretty stock and valid. And so therefore, that's why we do stuff out in public space. We try to eliminate those barriers. But the thing that was more fascinating was that we then asked people about a dance memory, Speaker 2 (23:58): And then people had all these memories of dancing at a school, dance, dancing at a wedding, dancing on their dad's feet in the kitchen. So I think the disconnect between performative dance and social ceremonial dance is really strong. I want to say it's also culturally strong here in the West that in maybe other cultures, they understand that dance can be celebratory, can be cathartic. Speaker 1 (24:33): Whereas Speaker 2 (24:34): I think we know that from weddings and things like that, but then we can't make the connection between that and performative dance that happens on a proscenium stage. And as soon as these formal things get added, then I think it becomes, oh, I can't dance, and so therefore I don't have a touch point Speaker 1 (24:56): To it. Yeah. You see that there is also, I mean, just as I'm thinking about this, I think culturally we have a weird rocky relationship with the idea of being expressive in any way. The idea of being expressive, and I think especially for men Speaker 2 (25:17): Is Speaker 1 (25:17): A really big thing. And I think dancing is a big part of that. To be expressive in that way, to be expressive of your emotions is sort of frowned upon to be expressive physically in all those ways. Is that something you've kind of witnessed? Speaker 2 (25:33): Yeah, I do think it's getting a little better. So I see now particularly there are certain genres. So particularly hip hop dance is more digestible for kids. And then also things that I really wouldn't have thought have shifted that kind of cultural norm. So even something as simple as there are now football players who have been on Dancing with the Stars, so Speaker 1 (26:02): Culturally Speaker 2 (26:04): There's at least something that especially young male students can point to and be like, oh no, it's cool because he did it. Speaker 2 (26:13): So it gives them, I think they want to do it, but they know that society is telling them that story about masculinity, so they maybe wouldn't do it, but now they have a couple outs to point to like, oh no, he does it, or, no, hip hop's cool. Or I still see a lot of young men being like, no, ballet's not cool. And yeah, I think that it's changing a bit. But yeah, there's definitely some gender specific things that happen when it comes to dance as well. And I think you're right, that kind of historic story of what is masculine, what isn't gets into that Speaker 1 (26:57): When you're talking about it getting better too. I kind of feel like as you're saying that, I'm like, well, what else has changed? And I think about the viral video of choreographed dance. That's another thing that has become something that gets passed around a lot, and it's like this thing that has become a little more normalized maybe in people's minds and especially younger people of, I think it's pretty common to see a video of somebody dancing super well just like some kid or something doing something crazy and you're like, oh, wow, that's impressive. Or the sort of big, crazy unexpected production that happens at some wedding or something that nobody's expecting. I think those also, maybe those have affected people's opinions of dance too, in some weird way. Speaker 2 (27:42): I think so. I know from personal experience, even the popularity of flash mobs has helped to normalize dance and dance in public. The unfortunate side of that is that anytime we now dance in public, people are like, that's a flash mob. And it's like, oh, no, not exactly, but that's fine. That is the context for most people. So it really, yeah, I think that has had a big impact into people accepting dance happening out in public Speaker 1 (28:16): Space too. Well, I thought we could go look at the galleries and I have a piece of work all picked out for us to talk about, so I hope you're ready. Speaker 2 (28:26): Yep, I'm excited. Speaker 1 (28:27): Awesome. So yeah, we are in Gallery 2 28. I almost forgot it again after you just told me which gallery number. This was 2 28, and we are looking at a painting called The Sacred Hour by Ferdinand ler. And you know what, I'm not sure if I am pronouncing his name right, because I just realized I should have done my homework on that. He's from Switzerland, so I don't know if that's like, Speaker 2 (29:09): I think you nailed it. I can't think of a different way to say it. Speaker 1 (29:13): Well, thank you. Thank you for your support. I hope I did. That's what I've been saying for probably about five years now and hope I've been right. It's not until I say it recorded in time forever that I have to go, oh, wait, is that right? I don't know. And so we did cheat and look at the label a little bit, so we have a little bit of a basis, but why don't you just describe for everyone what we are looking at? Speaker 2 (29:43): Yeah, so it's a pretty big painting in scale. I would say it's like six foot by eight foot. I don't know. I'm really bad at dimensions. Speaker 1 (29:53): Yeah, that's pretty close. It might be a little shy of eight foot in width, but it is, I would say six feet high is probably spot on. That's a good guess. Close enough. Speaker 2 (30:04): And so it's two women and they're sitting at kind of a bench. I guess that's really actually hard to tell what they're sitting on. Speaker 1 (30:14): Yeah, I mean, it's kind of green and almost grassy, but then it has a structure to it that does not, I mean, it seems very bench. Speaker 2 (30:22): Yeah, Speaker 1 (30:23): It doesn't seem like Speaker 2 (30:25): It's like if you could sit on a hedge and you wouldn't fall through Speaker 1 (30:28): Yes. Speaker 2 (30:29): But you would in reality, Speaker 1 (30:30): Right? Yeah, that's a good way to describe it. Yeah, it's intentionally ambiguous what they are sitting on. It might just be some kind of fabric or something that's draped over a bench or something, but it's got that kind of curve to it that feels earthy. Speaker 2 (30:46): Yes. And I think we think it's a hedge, or at least I do, because around them are roses. There's basically red kind of blobs. They actually almost look like kisses if I put on lipstick and went up and kissed the canvas. And so in my mind, that's flowers or Speaker 1 (31:09): A garden. Yeah, I think almost everybody, everybody has interpreted those as flowers that I've looked at this with. I mean it probably partially because we can see these in some of them, they have these stems Speaker 2 (31:19): That Speaker 1 (31:19): Up towards their heads that seem to immediately make you think of some kind of plant. And even the shape of them when you get to some of them seem like you can maybe we're looking at them from the side where they're kind of coming in through a more cone shape. Some see that we're looking at them from the front, but they're very abstracted. They're not very detailed painting. I mean, almost all of these flowers just look like somebody took a brush and went, made a little circle real quickly. They're very fast. Speaker 2 (31:52): And it's actually interesting because the vines to me as a novice visual artist, look like almost a sketch remnant. It actually doesn't look like they were painted on. Speaker 1 (32:03): Yeah, they do look very penciled. Let's get up close and see. They might be, I don't know if they're literally pencil or they just might be a really light brush work. Speaker 2 (32:14): Oh, it almost looks like charcoal over here. Speaker 1 (32:16): I mean, that to me looks like definitely drawn on. You might be right with the charcoal or some kind of oil stick or something. Maybe it might be an oil stick drawn right onto the canvas drawn over top of paint. So it's hard to say. I mean, it could be a very dry brush also that you're using almost with just very lightly loaded with some paint. So that could also be why it has that kind of drawn look to it. But yeah. Yeah, it's definitely very sketchy Speaker 2 (32:56): And it's kind of roughly done too. There are a couple drips where you can see the paintbrush dripped, but it's not cleaned up, which is cool. It's a little bit imperfect, but I don't actually care about the background. What I want to tell you about, Speaker 1 (33:13): Ignore that everything Speaker 2 (33:14): I said, the thing I want to tell you about are the women. So it's two women and they're side by side. They're wearing these really beautiful royal blue gowns. They definitely look like, if I'm thinking of a dancer, they look like an Isadora Duncan kind of vibe. So she was one of the first modern dancers. A lot of people know about her, very iconic, and she was very free. The women, I'm not sure that they're dancers, but they are barefoot, so that kind of gives that modern feel to it. Modern dance feel. Speaker 1 (33:51): What time period was she from? Speaker 2 (33:53): Oh, early 19 hundreds. Speaker 1 (33:56): Okay. Because this painting is between 1907 and 1911. We don't Speaker 2 (34:02): Know. In fact, that would make perfect, Speaker 1 (34:03): So that'd be nailed it. Nice. Speaker 2 (34:08): Yeah, so they're sitting and they have one arm that's kind of out for dancers, like a half of a first position, and they're kind of leaning towards each other. So there is symmetry in it for sure. If you cut the painting in half and kind of smushed it, then they would be nearly symmetrical Speaker 1 (34:32): Almost. But the figure on the right, her one arm is kind of behind her, the one that's central and the other lady's arm is in front of her. Both of her arms are in front of her. And there seems to be kind an interesting, those two arms are sort of mimicking each other in the shape they would make if you were able to see more of the one that's behind her. But it's kind of an interesting shift. But they both are leaning inward, so their body is very symmetrical, and that tilt Speaker 2 (35:03): And their outside leg is actually popped so that it's kind of in an arch so that they're leaning in and their heads are kind of tilted away from one another. Speaker 1 (35:15): And they have, I guess it's worth pointing out, since we are talking about the painting of the flowers, I feel like these figures are much more realized than the flowers. There's a kind of difference in painting styles that are happening throughout this painting and in the areas that have more polish in the areas that are left really rough. And there's a push and pull of how much something gets pulled forward and how much gets polished, how much just gets left. Nope. One take Speaker 2 (35:50): Their feet have a lot of specificity to them, and really the figure on their right, her face has more specificity to me than the one on the left, but that also may be the lighting. Speaker 1 (36:01): Yeah, we are getting a little bit of a glare where we're sitting. Probably if we're standing, it might be a little easier to see that. But yeah, there is a little bit. I think I would agree with that both her face does feel a little more refined maybe than the dancer on the left. It's maybe just a little bit rough, but both of them, I would say their faces are probably painted with a different kind of care than either. Even the robes are a little bit rougher. And the one on the left, I feel like her robe feels a little more refined than the one on the right, especially down towards the bottom where the paint gets really loosey goosey. Speaker 2 (36:43): And the hand that's behind is very different as well. Speaker 1 (36:47): Yeah, you can just see through the fingers it is very sketchy. Speaker 2 (36:52): Maybe he didn't finish that. He forgot about it. Speaker 1 (36:56): I mean, at least to the point that this is a signed painting, we can kind of assume it is not a work in progress. So that is kind of interesting to think about. There are some times where we're looking at, and even actually there's a piece kind of next door that is more of a sketch, kind of an incomplete idea. And this though is this is meant to be what we're meant to see. So it's interesting to think about. Those are all conscious decisions. And one of the things that you may not notice until you look at this painting for a while is there were clearly planned to be some other figures in here. Speaker 2 (37:37): Oh, really? Speaker 1 (37:37): Yeah. Look next underneath the flowers Speaker 2 (37:41): Over there on the left, Speaker 1 (37:43): Yeah, it's easier to see right here. Can you see the figure? Speaker 2 (37:46): Oh, yeah. Speaker 1 (37:47): You can see another figure that was supposed to be on that side, and you can start to see the outlines of some of those other figures on. So it's almost like there were supposed to be four figures originally, and then he kind of painted over 'em, but kind of didn't. And then it's interesting because he left these kind of fleshy blobs there too, which is just again, really, really strange. This is a really strange painting. Speaker 2 (38:16): And also their expression. How would you describe their expression? Not expressionless. Speaker 1 (38:23): No, but it does have, and maybe I hate to say this to you, but it has that maybe sort of cliche modern dance seriousness about it. Speaker 2 (38:33): Austere, Speaker 1 (38:35): Yes. Something you do kind of like this is serious, that kind of thing, that sort of expression that we use when we want to clue people in that you should pay attention and take this seriously right now because the thing I'm doing is very beautiful. Speaker 2 (38:50): Yep, you're exactly right. You nailed it. Well, and also, so really this is from the placard that we read, so I'm cheating a bit. Speaker 1 (39:03): No, no, no, it's fine. I was going to say we should probably, I realize we've talked about it this long. So the painting is called The Sacred Hour, but one of the things the label reveals, and one of the reasons I wanted us to both read it is that these are EU rhythmic dancers Speaker 2 (39:18): And Speaker 1 (39:19): That they are, which to me, if you just say eurythmic, I think Annie Linux, I don't necessarily. Me too. Right? Did you know that word? Speaker 2 (39:27): No. I don't know what eurythmic dancers are. Never Speaker 1 (39:29): Heard it. You've never heard that. Okay. I was curious because Speaker 2 (39:31): Which doesn't mean it's not a popular thing. It may just be my limited knowledge. Speaker 1 (39:35): I suspect it is this thing that was probably more well known at the turn of the century probably, and more people would've known that term. And now I think we would just say interpretive dance. Speaker 2 (39:46): I Speaker 1 (39:46): Think that's just sort of taken over that term most likely. And we let Annie Linux have the word we just said, Annie, it's yours. Speaker 2 (39:55): She earned it. Speaker 1 (39:56): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things that's interesting about this painting is it does really change it. I feel like I asked you when we came in, if you didn't know anything about EU rhythmic dancers when you sat down, would you have thought these were dancers at all? Speaker 2 (40:14): Right. And I guess actually, now that I'm reflecting on it, I would've maybe thought they were dancers on their break. You can tell their dancers because of their posture, but I wouldn't have thought they were dancing. Speaker 1 (40:30): Does Speaker 2 (40:30): That make sense? The difference of, I wouldn't have thought they were actively engaged in a dance Speaker 1 (40:35): Movement. Speaker 2 (40:36): I would've thought these are some people who are used to using their bodies and they're just hanging out and talking to each other Speaker 1 (40:43): Because they do seem sort of purposeful in that we were talking about that twist of the body that's happening. That doesn't seem like just people chilling, sitting on a bench. It does seem very purposeful. And the way she's sort of got her hand draped that shape across her knee, it's all very purposeful. And I think the other thing that's interesting is we don't think of dancers, a dance happening while seated usually. So that's another thing that's sort of an odd, like, oh, you can dance while sitting. Speaker 2 (41:16): And so the label talks about repetition and using repetition for this type of inspiration for dance, which I think is just fascinating. I definitely have seen dance that uses that idea and that even we were talking on our way to the gallery about taking a pedestrian movement, a gesture, an everyday thing, and adding to it, making it bigger in size or just adding repetition to it can make it become dance. And then I see that the artist also kind of extrapolated this idea of repetition in life, this idea, I guess, I don't know what his thought was. It just said he took repetition as a theme for life. Speaker 1 (42:15): So a lot of his works do have repeated figures in this kind of way. Again, I was saying he's like, this painting is super weird. He's got a lot of really strange paintings that he was one of these people who made up their own sort of mythology. And so some of the work can be a little indecipherable because the symbols just don't really make sense to anybody else because it's all his own crazy personal mythology that he created. And so, I mean, on one hand you could be like, well, that's really interesting. On the other hand, you could be like, that's nonsense. It's not like you're going to look at it and be like, oh, well, this is clearly a reference to the classic Greek myth of you might with other works. Speaker 2 (43:00): I was thinking, I'm going to go real off base with this, but I was thinking of repetition in this idea of repetition, right? And then repetition in life and human, we repeat things, we repeat a habit, something becomes habitual. So I just finished watching West World. Speaker 1 (43:21): Okay. Speaker 2 (43:21): Do you watch the world? I Speaker 1 (43:22): Have. I have not watched any of the second season, Speaker 2 (43:25): So I won't do any spoilers for Speaker 1 (43:26): Anybody, Speaker 2 (43:27): Yourself included. But this idea of, we think of robots as being on loops, but are we also on loops as humans? So if I was going to apply that to this painting and even kind of understand why these kind of shadow selves were left sketched in this idea of these women are the Westworld robot versions and here are the real versions and we're just repeating this movement kind of. So if that was his philosophical Speaker 1 (43:57): Idea Speaker 2 (43:58): In saying that repetition, in this repetition in life, I would never think that if I hadn't read the label. But I do think it's, if you put that explanation on top of this, I could really see how that could become an interesting topic to delve into. Speaker 1 (44:20): Well, another thing, repetition in art. I mean, the other thing that's really the most repeated, obviously the two figures and maybe would be the four figures, but then also the flowers are the most repeated in this painting. And one of the things that they do that I think is another connection with dance or performance is that things like that create rhythm in art. And that is any kind of repetition creates that sense of rhythm. And so I want to say that to me, those flowers have always made this painting a little more musical than they would be if I got rid of them. I think if you got rid of those flowers, they would remove a sense of that rhythm and a sense of time. And I might think of these figures as much more static Speaker 2 (45:05): Than Speaker 1 (45:05): They do. So they do create a sort of liveliness to the painting, and they sort of activate what we were saying is not necessarily the most dancey of poses you might see, Speaker 2 (45:17): But Speaker 1 (45:17): To me, that adds a sense of music to the artwork, and that kind of creates a sort of atmosphere of dance to the point where even if they were standing completely still, that would still be a dance in that way. Just if we came in here into this gallery and there were two ladies sitting on this bench like that, and they were sitting completely still like that, but there was music playing, Speaker 2 (45:40): We Speaker 1 (45:40): Would suddenly see their stillness as a performance Speaker 2 (45:44): Because Speaker 1 (45:45): Of the context. So I can see that to me, those flowers do a lot of the job of making it musical. Speaker 2 (45:53): I agree with that. Yeah. It adds the kind of natural element that also ties into that era of modern dance too. It was a lot of Isador Duncan dancing by the ocean, so it was never on a proscenium stage. It was always out in the natural world too. Speaker 1 (46:12): Well, and there's something about the title that also, I think when you just mentioned that sort of natural element and the flowers and being called the sacred hour, which again, that it's like, what does that mean? But it has that, it makes it ritual, it makes it ritualistic, and then that's maybe that when we get into that kind of symbolism of the artist of thinking about these flowers and nature and earth and all of that starts to become quasi-religious or something, or having that kind of ceremony about it. Speaker 2 (46:45): Yeah, I do feel like it's a commentary on time in some way. Speaker 1 (46:52): Time in what way? Speaker 2 (46:53): Well, I guess time meaning impermanence, or again, back to that idea of repetition, the repeating cycles of nature, the repeating movement and gesture. And then since it's quantified as an hour, what is the sacred hour? To me, that's like dusk, but it doesn't look like dusk from the painting necessarily. Speaker 1 (47:19): Yeah, that's a good point. But it does to me, whenever I read that title and think about them dancing, it suddenly becomes, and maybe the outfits that have this kind of classical, almost like Greek toga equality, that also makes me think about some sort of ancient ritual or something that's the sacredness of it is certainly doesn't seem to be any kind of church we're familiar with. It seems to be something a little bit foreign, a little bit outside of what we could possibly know. So if you did imagine these ladies moving, if you were imagining the dance, how do you think this would be kind of resolved? What do you think this dance would end up looking like? Speaker 2 (48:12): Yeah, I definitely think by the lines of it, you'd mentioned the curve. So I think to use some kind of vocabulary of movement, I think that it's using very smooth and a light movement. So I don't think it's a heavy, sharp kind of twitchy movement. I think it would be really lyrical, and I think it's slow moving in tempo, I imagine, and I think it's pretty, honestly, I see it as staying non-motor, meaning that maybe they used their legs, but they were sitting the whole time. Yeah, Speaker 1 (48:57): That's how I imagine it too. They Speaker 2 (48:59): Jumped up at any point during this. I think it was simple and small. Speaker 1 (49:04): Yeah, that's small. Speaker 2 (49:05): Yeah. Speaker 1 (49:05): I think you see it in the same way I would too, which I can imagining them moving at a pace, kind of very glacial. Speaker 2 (49:15): Yeah. I don't think it's puppet though. I don't think it's stiff. I still think it's very fluid Speaker 1 (49:22): How they're Speaker 2 (49:23): Moving. Speaker 1 (49:23): Yeah, I can see. Yeah, I agree. In sort of the curviness of the painting we were talking about that sort of arc above and the sort of really circular composition it has, if you look at the way this sort of paint, this sort sweeps us up into these flowers and back around, it's got a very circular composition. And I think that also helps you kind of see that smooth movement when you described it not being terribly herky jerky, there's not a lot here to maybe make me go that way. And certainly the way their bodies are painted doesn't make me go in that direction either. Speaker 2 (50:03): What kind of music is playing for them to be dancing to? Oh my gosh. Speaker 1 (50:06): See, that's the thing too. It's hard for me not to think about the sacred part of it, but again, I think of very, to me, I go very simple. There's probably some bells or chimes. Speaker 2 (50:23): Yeah, I could see that for sure. Yeah, it's sparse for sure, I think. Right. It's not a big symphony. Speaker 1 (50:34): It's echoes with John Speaker 2 (50:37): Dto. Totally. Speaker 1 (50:38): That's playing. They turned on echoes, Speaker 2 (50:41): The echoes of their time. Speaker 1 (50:42): They turned on echoes on public radio and just did their performance with some, I don't know, eastern inspired woodwinds. And that's totally what's going on. Speaker 2 (50:54): But it does feel like language, maybe a violin or Speaker 1 (50:59): I Speaker 2 (50:59): Don't know, but I could see the bell thing too. So what's interesting is I'm looking at this, for some part of me it seems like almost pretentious, but then I think that's more so my thoughts current day about that style of dance and not that style of dance when it was happening. I think when it was happening, it was so authentic and so groundbreaking. It was the moment when the point shoes were ripped off and it was a rebellion against ballet and positions and formulaic dance. But I think nowadays when we see that, unless it's super well done, then it has that kind of pretension and that kind of, it's not authentic, right? It's like a contrived idea that doesn't really apply to today. Speaker 1 (51:58): Yeah. I don't know. I think it's interesting when you talked about that idea of dance moving in that way and being perceived as very pretentious and stuffy, and it's just like this thing that I don't know is always a real conundrum that a lot of times though there's so much work that was made in that time period especially that's like, no, this is for the people. And then now the people do not like it. The people I know, we don't want it. Speaker 2 (52:26): We don't get it. Speaker 1 (52:27): Yeah. Right. Speaker 2 (52:28): Yeah. So we talk about, I use art as an example for my students, and I always say I draw the one thing that I can draw. I draw a flower in a very, like, this is a flower. You would win a Pictionary type of flower. And we talk about like, oh, that's a flower. Everyone agrees. Like 20 out of 20 people in the room say it's a flower. And then I just scribble on the board and I talk about, now what do you think this is? Could it be a flower? Could it be They yell out things that they think it is. And I talk about how dance kind of falls more in the scribble zone because often I find with students that they're trying to create a charade. They're trying to act, they're trying to make sure that I know if we're creating a brush, your teeth dance that they're just taking their hand and brushing their teeth. But dance doesn't have to be that. In fact, it shouldn't be that, right? You start there, but then you get bigger, bolder, weirder, and you don't have to watch dance and say, oh, I know they're brushing their teeth. You might just get a feeling, or it's a lot less specific, at least in the type of dance that we do. But then if you go see a ballet, then they get much more narrative and they are kind of that hybrid of acting and dancing. Speaker 1 (54:07): Yeah, though that is interesting that point to point out, the difference though is that I don't think, to use your example, I've never been to a ballet where anyone's brushed their teeth. It's is more narrative in the way that if you go see the Nutcracker, we understand this story and what's happening and up to the point where they're just sitting and watching people dance. The point of the Nutcracker that I do the dance within the dance dance where everyone's just watching dances, I go, okay, but dance is never quite, I don't know if there's ever any, it's always people dancing, right? There is art that is meant to just be like, oh my gosh. It could just be like, I could reach right in there and grab that glass goblet. So art can be sort of so mimetic that it just totally reflects that thing. But I think you're right about the idea of dance is always kind of a scribble because it's never going to be that thing you can reach out and touch. Because we don't dance in real life every minute of the, we don't wake up on Christmas morning and twirl around with our new toy. So it always has that little bit of separation, I think. So that's a really interesting point. There is always some barrier there, Speaker 2 (55:27): I guess, Speaker 1 (55:28): From real life at least, Speaker 2 (55:30): Which is kind of the magic, right? Dance is making. I had a great teacher who said, dance is just making the ordinary extraordinary, and I thought that was a great way to think of it. Speaker 1 (55:40): That is a very nice way to think of Speaker 2 (55:41): It, like how I move in real life and just making that more extraordinary. Speaker 1 (55:45): And I guess the comparison there with art would be that you have an art. How this image is composed, where the frame is, all of those things should ultimately still make that thing interesting, and we should look at it differently than we would if we just walked into the room and saw a table full of fruit. We would be like, oh, well, it's a table full of fruit. Hopefully the painting is better. It's at least a different experience. I mean, it might not taste as good, but at least visually, hopefully the artist has done something in that instance to make it extraordinary as well. Well, this has been fun. Speaker 2 (56:23): Yeah. Thank you so much. Speaker 1 (56:25): Thanks for coming and being my guest today. Speaker 2 (56:27): My pleasure. Thank you. Speaker 1 (56:38): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions on view right now are Make Way for Ducklings the Art of Robert McCloskey, which is closing soon on September 9th, and collecting calligraphy Arts of the Islamic World opens on September 7th. Join us on September 15th from one to 3:00 PM for an artist workshop on calligraphy led by artist Hassan Qureshi. This workshop is open to visitors of all ages. For program reservations and more information, visit cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Fra Al by belau, and as always, please rate and review us. It really helps others find the show. I'm Russell Iig, and this has been Art Palace, produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.