Speaker 1 (00:00:00): Coming up on Art Palace, Speaker 2 (00:00:02): How do you see the space between people as having significance or more specifically, where do you see God present? I'm going to, let's put it that way. Where do you see God present between people? Speaker 1 (00:00:26): Welcome to Art Palace, produced by Cincinnati Art Museum. This is your host, Russell Iig. Here at the Art Palace, we meet cool people and then talk to them about art. Today's episode is a live recording of the gallery experience on connectedness that took place on November 24th, 2019. This conversation took place in the special exhibition, the Levy, a photographer in the American South, and the topic was inspired by some of the themes found in the photographs. The conversation was moderated by Pastor Alice Connor uc, chaplain and author of How to Human, an Incomplete Manual for Living in a Messed Up World. The panel included Daniel Hughes, pastor of Incline missional community, and a member of the Economics of Compassion Initiative and the Jubilee Cincinnati campaign, and also Krishna, senior scientist at Proctor and Gamble, religious counselor of the Hindu Society of Greater Cincinnati, and co-author of the Complete Bhagavan Gita, a verse by verse, self-study guide to master the ancient text with new insights. Because this conversation took place in the gallery. You may occasionally hear background sounds from visitors. Speaker 2 (00:01:48): This is the first time I've done something like this, so it's kind of fun. I'm excited. You guys are Guinea pigs. I thought it might be an interesting way to sort of introduce ourselves beyond our qualifications to y'all, but also to each other, which is, so I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Thinking about your everyday life, not what's coming down the pipe or what you wish your life were, but just what happens in your everyday life. And I'm going to answer this too. What do you notice that just flows without any, when work on your part? What flows easily like a river, but also what are you longing for? You weren't expecting this question. No. Maybe you should answer it first since you've already been thinking I'll think about it actually. And side note, I'm going to ask you guys the same question in just a minute. Speaker 2 (00:02:47): So be thinking of your own answers. What I long for deeply within my soul I think is understanding, and I mean understanding of myself because I often feel like my motives are misunderstood or what I'm saying or doing is misunderstood. But more than that on a societal level, that people will see each other clearly for who they actually are rather than the masks that we put on or the masks we put on other people. You know what I mean? That's what I long for deeply. I'm going to let somebody else answer now that I've answered something. Speaker 3 (00:03:27): I think for me, the flow, I think I connect with humans fairly easily. I think that it just happens, but I think there's a longing right now in this particular time in my life where I long for a connection, a head, heart, body connection with myself. I call it an integrated self. For me, I seem to be able to connect with others better than I can connect with all of me. And sometimes the connection that I have with others is strictly intellectual. Emotionally. I keep that distance and again, so I'm trying to find a more holistic connection here so that I can have that kind of connection with others and maybe hopefully see others in the light that you're talking about, that kind of deal. Yeah, I Speaker 2 (00:04:11): Feel that. What about you? Speaker 4 (00:04:14): Well, for me, I want to experience every moment of my existence. Nothing is mundane for me and nothing is trivial, nothing is important. Everything I experienced, my dad was a great scholar, very knowledgeable person, but my mom is a sixth grade dropout and she had all the wisdom which my father lacked. Knowledge comes in the ways of wisdom sometimes. So I live my life exactly like she said. Speaker 2 (00:04:48): That Speaker 4 (00:04:48): Is be cheerful. Every gloomy moment is that much wasted life. I follow that. And there are no strangers in this world. There could be strange behaviors, and when you work for a big company, there is some people going up, going down. A lot of things happen, not necessarily, but then she said celebrate the success of others. What do you got to lose in a company with a hundred thousand employees whom you thought, oh, this person get elevated, they get promoted, they may be your boss. They may be c e o company, right? In 24 eyes. So just celebrate their success. What did you got to lose? And then all life has sorrow. No, life is without sorrow. That's the way life Speaker 3 (00:05:47): Is. Speaker 4 (00:05:49): It's a joyful participation in the sorrows of life. Sorrow does not necessarily mean somebody dying or anything. Even little things, some failures, every failure. So joyfully participate in Speaker 2 (00:06:04): Really light, you said joyfully participate in the sorrows of life. Speaker 4 (00:06:07): Yeah, joyfully participate. Why? The message is why suffer twice. That's the reason why suffer twice. So I follow that principle and that's how my life runs. That's great. Life piece runs like a river. Time flows like a river life lost like a river. And no two moments are saying anything. Like they say the bad pictures are the ones which you did not take. Speaker 2 (00:06:34): Yes, yes. I'm going to stick a pin in that river moment. We're going to come back to that in just a second. You don't all have to respond, but if anybody who is present has been listening and thinking just in a few words, what is it that you're longing for Speaker 5 (00:06:53): Me? What came to mind? Things that all three of you said was healing and how will we forgive each other in our country to not be the same and not even have to blend, but how will we forgive each other and live together, especially after these last years here now. And that is very much in my mind and my careers, Speaker 2 (00:07:19): Your longing for that forgiveness and that being able to live together, living Speaker 4 (00:07:24): In the Speaker 5 (00:07:24): Flow of that. How will that come about? How will we manage that? Speaker 2 (00:07:29): Yeah, it's not a question that we get asked very often. Is it Speaker 5 (00:07:36): Because I had just retired from my wife's work? And then what flows well for me is connecting to other people. But like you said, that thing of connecting to yourself and specifically finding out what is my creativity and how do I want that to be expressed in a period of my life where I have a lot more free time. Something that flows easily for me besides love for my family is empathy. And I think something that I'm trying to figure out now is how can I use that successfully? How can I find meaning in that to help others? Speaker 2 (00:08:25): Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Empathy flowing. So we're not here to talk about the photos necessarily, but to kind of be inspired by them, to sit in the midst of them and the journey of the artist on the same river that his father worked on, but not really seeing each other. It's really kind of fascinating to me. So I'm just going to say a couple of things and then I'm going to kind of direct it this way. So as we were wandering through the gallery the other day, we were talking a lot about the distance between people. Sometimes it's quite a distance, really significant. There's a piece on this wall over here that if you're on this side of the table, you can see if you're on that side. I don't think you can, but you can get up later and look at it. It's right next to the door. Speaker 2 (00:09:16): It's a woman standing in the doorway of her house. And Nathaniel pointed it out to me, and I don't remember exactly what you said, but I remember you pointing it out to me specifically about this idea of distance. And then it's been sitting with me the whole time for a month. She's being photographed. So you've got her unadorned very clearly in front of the camera and just you can see a little sliver of her inner life, her house where she lives, her home. You can see a little sliver of it around her body between herself and the doorway. And she's got kind of this, she doesn't look angry, but just definitely kind a, this is my space. Hello, what can I do for you? What do you need? Kind of perspective. And there's such a distance between her and the photographer and who knows where it went. Speaker 2 (00:10:07): Maybe they became fast friends, but the photograph is just this sliver of time with big space between people, but then you've got this one over here behind us of the two women, I presume, the two women, I don't know, two people holding hands, sort of supporting each other's hands and the closeness of that, and I really love this word, this tenderness of this. The space between us can collapse entirely in certain relationships and in others be significantly separate. So I'm interested to hear about in your own lives or perhaps in your own spirituality, how do you, I want to say this, how do you see the space between people as having significance or more specifically, where do you see God present? I'm going to, let's put it that way. Where do you see God present between people? Speaker 4 (00:11:08): You mean the human relation, the places I have been? I think a lot of time where you work matters. I think the place of employment, it's very diverse. We have people from different ethnicities, black, Chinese, Indians, whites. So there I see the celebration of diversity. There is very little kind of any kind of misgiving or any kind of trying to be sensitive or trying to patronize anything. But in the community itself, I see, depending on where it is, if you go to Medira, which is more traditional, more white, more traditional Speaker 2 (00:11:52): Kind of community, Speaker 4 (00:11:54): And some places, like in Montgomery area, actually, we are trying to buy a condo, and this condo is only two units. One was vacant. It's a very nice opportunity. I was trying to buy at the neighbor. There's only two, there's a H o A association, he's the president. So I wanted to meet him before buying. He would not open the door for me. Then I had a handyman who came to inspect the house before buying. He would open the door for him. So I can see that complete acceptance to complete rejection. I come from a country, I was telling her I am the bad guy. So it's hard to change the hearts of people, not necessarily changes. So I see examples of both examples of prejudice as an example, examples of total accept. But in my workplaces, it has always been total accepted. No, Speaker 2 (00:12:55): It Speaker 4 (00:12:55): May be just because the places I have been. Speaker 2 (00:12:58): Would you say that that experience of acceptance is, I don't know if you would use this language, but would you say that's sort of a sense of the divine God present Speaker 4 (00:13:08): And Speaker 2 (00:13:08): Sort of the guy not opening the door for you? Speaker 4 (00:13:11): Exactly. Yeah. It's a kind of, not that Speaker 2 (00:13:13): God's necessarily absolute, Speaker 4 (00:13:14): But my dad was like that, so I can see that. Speaker 2 (00:13:17): My Speaker 4 (00:13:17): Dad was a big aunt, but my mom, that's why I call Archie know how many of you're familiar too? Y Archie Bunker, I considered as my American parents, although totally different. He's a blue collar worker. My dad is a scholar, it doesn't matter. Education doesn't matter. Basic nature, it shows up. Our chief bunker is exactly like my dad edit. Mac is exactly like my mom. So I can see that. So when somebody does that, I can just see that. I just make sure I won't do it. That's all. Seeing that the same family. My dad was like that. My mom was exactly the other. It's funny, when she passed away, in our culture, people offer rice to the dead body as they're going to feed it. And some of our relatives said some people who don't belong to our caste, but my mom was close to all of them. She didn't care about cash. They would not let them offer race to her. I got very mad. She was with them all the time. That's why sometimes it reminds me that lots of people sometime won't change for whatever reason. Speaker 2 (00:14:42): These distinctions, the distance between us, the distance between people, it exists across cultures, and we come up, we make up reasons Speaker 4 (00:14:51): Why Speaker 2 (00:14:51): Some people are in and some people are out. Right before we were talking, before we started this, we Speaker 4 (00:14:59): Made sure we don't raise our children like that. Speaker 2 (00:15:02): Right? Exactly. Speaker 4 (00:15:03): Yeah. My daughter was doing her, she went to academy. She was doing her, she got a psychology undergraduate degree from New York University. Then she went for World Teach program in Namibia, and after she worked there for one year, she kept going back. I said, fine. Then I was going to go to Namibia in 2008 because that was her last year. And she said, daddy, when you come here, you must know I am very close to a black man here. I said, are you telling me or asking? Speaker 2 (00:15:38): She Speaker 4 (00:15:38): Said, I am telling you. I said, congratulations, only condition for you good because of you. He should not move to America. He's an Namibian enjoying life in Namibia. You should not be the cause for him to move to America. If he wants to move, he's your citizen born here, he can easily come. So you make rent and say, but you should not be the cause. Speaker 2 (00:16:10): Right. Daniel, how about you? That's all Speaker 4 (00:16:12): I told her. That's all the condition. That's the only condition. I love Speaker 2 (00:16:16): It. Daniel, tell us about how you see, if you want to call it God, that's fine. Or just tell me about the connections you see among people in your life, that distance and that closeness. Speaker 3 (00:16:32): I have a friend who wrote a song. They had a tragedy in their community in Portland. She's a songwriter, and the song is called Distance is a Privilege. And so she was talking about in her church how they had their church and life is good. And one of the members of the church who happened to be a black man who was a postal worker, was shot by a police officer while trying to break up a fight. So the police officer thought that he was actually the calls or the culprit or whatever. And so she was kind of thrust into how easy it is to forget or how easy it is to separate yourself from this other world out there. And so I think of distance as a privilege, just the way that we do America, the way that we do our lives, that you want to be as far away as you can from the things that make you uncomfortable or feel unsafe or whatever that is. So where do I see God or the divine? I think it starts for me, my faith says that God actually came and hung out with us. The notion of God's in heaven somewhere out there, a horse out there, but then God actually comes and is actually close and can be in your whatever, your mess, whatever, whatever. That's what we're talking about here. Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:17:43): So for me, the idea of the philosophy or the theology, there's got to be something bigger, more powerful our society or the way that we organize society in order to get me to challenge that notion. And so I think that we need to try different ideas. I think, I mean that's an idea that's already out there, but we need new ideas that allow us to close the gap that put us in proximity to one another rather than just kind of going with what is. And so the group that I'm with Jubilee, the whole notion of Jubilee comes out of a Jewish concept that says every 50 years if someone is in debt or enslaved, you release 'em from bondage. If you have their property, they get their property back. Our society doesn't have that idea. We hold people out Speaker 2 (00:18:38): Forever. Speaker 3 (00:18:39): Forever. When do you pay your debt to how long do you have to suffer for? And if we had some sort of idea that says, you know what? We're going to hold this for a while, but eventually you may not get it, but your descendants may get it. Someone in the family may get it. So that idea has my imagination right now in terms of, I think that's a way of connecting to say that we have a way of doing a reset. Speaker 2 (00:19:07): Yeah. Does that make Speaker 3 (00:19:09): Sense? Speaker 2 (00:19:09): Yeah, no, it totally does. There's a theologian, Nadia Bolt Weber, who maybe heard, she's written a couple of books. She was in Cincinnati a few months ago, and maybe it was last year actually. The passage of time is a little mystery to me sometimes. I think it was a year, the other day she's day and she was, I can't remember all the things she said, but this one particular thing she was talking about how she is intrigued by how we keep each other on the hook. This sort of idea of somebody has done us wrong or done someone else wrong. And we say something along the lines of like, well, we can't let them off the hook. They have to pay for their crimes, or they have to at least say they're sorry or something. They have to stay on the hook. And then she just paused and she said, but why do we have to keep them on the hook? Why is it a good thing for them to stay on the hook? Now, there are lots of societal things that suggest maybe we do need to at least see the wrong that we've done, but then can we help each other down off those hooks and just be with each other? But the problem is I'm not sure. I mean, we struggle with that, don't we? Speaker 2 (00:20:24): Yeah. There's so much wrong that we have done each other or that we benefit from somebody else having done that. It's like the hook is in all of our backs. I was wondering Speaker 6 (00:20:39): To somebody that has to do with how you close your own rooms. Speaker 2 (00:20:42): Yeah, say more. Speaker 6 (00:20:44): That's just sort of where I'm with that. I mean, why we hold each other on the hook is because maybe because we have a wound that we can't figure out how to close and we're looking to outside ourselves in some way to Speaker 3 (00:20:58): Find Speaker 6 (00:20:59): The resources or find something to happen that will allow us to close that wound or we'll close it for us. Maybe there's, like I was saying, there is such a thing as justice. Maybe Speaker 2 (00:21:13): There Speaker 6 (00:21:13): Is something to be said for that, but maybe in some ways, on certain occasions, it's really about something that happens inside yourself more than Speaker 3 (00:21:24): I think that else on a hook Speaker 2 (00:21:25): That Speaker 3 (00:21:26): Speaks to your longing. How do we forgive? They create places of healing so that the wounds can heal. And that choice to forgive it, it just seems so hard to forgive because it's like they're getting away with it. Or what happens if I forgive? And then it doesn't change to something. It doesn't change. Something change. And so I think it is easier to hold people accountable until they pay enough. Whatever you feel like enough is, Speaker 2 (00:21:50): Right? Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:21:52): When we go to the jail on Thursdays mean, criminal justice system is designed to keep those people away from us. And so I mean, they're isolated in that place. And when we go to them, I think that's it. It's the going to the other, to the stranger, that notion that there are no strangers. There may be strange behavior. I love that. Speaker 2 (00:22:12): That's so great Speaker 3 (00:22:13): To put yourself in the place or in the presence of the other, and to actually be present when you're with them. That's the other thing. We can be in the same room but not actually be present, which is what I like. Also what you said earlier. And so I think that for me, the closeness that I have within the healing that I do within it then makes it a little easier to do that in the world. Speaker 2 (00:22:34): Do you feel, I'm going to ask you, both of you this. Do you feel when you think about forgiveness, or maybe it's also related to justice and seeing each other clearly, does forgiveness feel like putting something down that you've been carrying? Say that again? Does forgiveness feel like putting down a burden? Do you feel like when you haven't forgiven someone, you're carrying something or maybe even clinging to it? Or maybe would you use a different metaphor for that? Speaker 3 (00:23:04): Depends. For me, it depends on what it is. Speaker 2 (00:23:05): Okay. Speaker 3 (00:23:06): Sometimes it feels like putting down a burden, and other times it just feels like I'm losing. It feels like I'm losing because I want to hold it. Speaker 2 (00:23:17): I want to Speaker 3 (00:23:18): Hold it for a little while. If I'm honest. I don't know if I can let this go yet. It's not a burden to me yet. Right now it's fuel. Right now it's fueling something for me. Right now, it's still meaningful, but eventually I've had things that I've helped for a long time and it did become a burden. So for me, I'm trying to find that time. I'm trying to tell myself, you know what, that one hurt or that I think I need to hold this for seven days or maybe every Speaker 4 (00:23:44): 50 years. I Speaker 2 (00:23:45): Dunno. But I got to figure out, I'll set this down in 15 years. I'll set this down in 50 years, but hold on. Yeah. Ti what about you? What does Speaker 4 (00:23:56): That Speaker 2 (00:23:56): Metaphor resonate? Speaker 4 (00:23:57): A lot of time, it depends on how we feel about our soul. So nobody can hurt me with their behavior. So I have no question of forgiving, just to forgive. I have to get hurt. But physically, if somebody hurts me, I'm not ready for that. That is very hard for me to forgive. It does not happen. If somebody came and slapped on me, I don't know whether I will turn the other cheek because physically I have not been. But emotionally, my behavior, like the guy did not open the door. It didn't bother me. Speaker 2 (00:24:32): Just Speaker 4 (00:24:32): An observation I made. Speaker 2 (00:24:34): I would like to learn from you. This ability to not be hurt by what other people say and do near Speaker 4 (00:24:40): You. Yeah. It won't be, yeah. I don't know why. Speaker 2 (00:24:44): It Speaker 4 (00:24:44): Doesn't bother me at all. Speaker 2 (00:24:45): It just doesn't bother you. Speaker 4 (00:24:46): Yeah, that's right. Something you, that's it depends on how we were brought up. Speaker 2 (00:24:51): Yeah. Is it something you Speaker 4 (00:24:53): Practice when you're a bra boy? Bra boy brought up us. You are great. See, that matters. I may not be great, but how we feel about it. Speaker 2 (00:25:04): So Speaker 4 (00:25:04): That's very difficult for me, for somebody to emotionally, verbally abuse me. Wow. Speaker 2 (00:25:14): So can I ask physically question? Yeah. So Speaker 5 (00:25:17): When that person did not open the door for you, were you able to just go, that's some strange Speaker 2 (00:25:22): Behavior, so you Speaker 4 (00:25:24): Just put it out there. Exactly. It just didn't bother me. So I caught my handyman to get the door open, called the handyman. I know he was not opening because of my skin color, but my handyman was a white guy. I told him, you knock at the door. Because I had few questions to ask him before buying the property. I didn't buy it anyway, Speaker 2 (00:25:46): But Speaker 4 (00:25:47): Before I do that, but he would not even open the door. I left the message in his name box to call me back. He would not Speaker 2 (00:25:53): Do it. That didn't wound you or fill you with resentment or Interesting. Speaker 4 (00:25:59): That's what, that's Speaker 2 (00:26:00): Amazing. Speaker 4 (00:26:01): That's what I said. A lot of people tell me in workplace, how come somebody was one 10th experience that you got promoted? I say, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:26:09): Yeah. Speaker 4 (00:26:11): Is just, as I said, people cannot help me by Speaker 2 (00:26:15): Words Speaker 4 (00:26:16): And behavior, Speaker 2 (00:26:17): But Speaker 4 (00:26:17): Again, Speaker 2 (00:26:18): They Speaker 4 (00:26:18): Hit me. Speaker 2 (00:26:19): Right. So Daniel mentioned a minute ago that we go and visit the guy, not all of them, some of the guys in the Hamilton County Justice Center on Thursdays and the last few weeks, you've been talking to them about offense, taking offense and learning to not take offense or what to do with it. Do you want to talk about that? Just a little bit. Speaker 4 (00:26:41): Okay. Can I just add one Speaker 2 (00:26:42): More thing to that? Yeah, please. Yeah. Well, it's related, but yeah, it's just me. Speaker 4 (00:26:45): But my wife can get hurt for nothing. Oh, Speaker 2 (00:26:48): She gets upset. Speaker 4 (00:26:50): She's mean too, but she can get hurt. Speaker 2 (00:26:53): Is she perplexed by you even when the Speaker 4 (00:26:55): Other person, Speaker 2 (00:26:58): Right, right, right, right. It's just Speaker 4 (00:27:01): Brought up in nature and nurture both. The picture. In my case, my nurture and nature somehow matched very Speaker 2 (00:27:09): Well Speaker 4 (00:27:10): In her case. Even me, she says, you hurt me. I said, and I did not. Speaker 2 (00:27:15): I did not. Speaker 4 (00:27:18): So anyway, I think you did Speaker 2 (00:27:24): Said it. She said it. She said it right. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about this idea of offensive being offended. Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:27:31): The idea that an offensive, you're hurt by, not every of offense hurts you, but if you're hurt, if you're deeply hurt by someone's actions or behaviors or whatever, and it hits you in a place that just really gets you, really knocks you off your feet, that thing can create some sort of almost a trap. It's almost like a trigger. We talk about triggers. It's a thing that you just can't shake, you can't seem to overcome. And so whenever you encounter someone getting close to that kind of an offense again, or close to doing that again, you'll react. It's like if you drop something on your toe, you're going to ouch. You're going to snap back. You're going to try to protect it from being hurt again. And that's what happens to us emotionally. Can be mentally, it can be physically. The Enneagram tells us that there are three types of people, head people, heart people and body or body types, head types or heart types. Speaker 3 (00:28:25): I grew up as more of a body type and head type. I grew into being a head type, didn't realize that my heart type was so anemic that that was the place where a lot of my offenses were, and I just didn't know how to process them. And so I'm not emotional, but I had a way of just short circuiting and getting around it. And then when I realized that I was carrying a bunch of offenses in my heart, I'm like, oh, I what to do with this? And so when I would get triggered, I would just blow up or I would avoid, just leave it alone. Leave them alone. And so I take that into the jail and I'm talking with the guys like, well, type are you. Because if you're head tie, if you're you kind, you're fearful. That's your primary emotion. And so for me, I had to have the plan A, B, C, and D. Speaker 3 (00:29:15): So I had to guarantee that if this didn't work out, then I couldn't handle not succeeding, winning, accomplishing. And so that's kind of where I live. I got to have a plan, and if the plan doesn't go well, then your expectations aren't met. So then I got to get angry. I got to blow up, or I got to leave you alone and just never mess with you because you can't. And so it was like, man, you're just carrying all of these burdens. You're carrying all of these and you have to allow your heart to soften. That's the flow for me, the river Speaker 2 (00:29:46): Tenderness, Speaker 3 (00:29:46): Allowing that to actually have a softer heart and allowing my heart to be my kind of radar if you were my sensor, and then allow my mind to set the plan. For me it was like forget the heart. Just set the plan. Just work out the plan. And I see the guys doing that in jail and their behaviors are really, really different because criminal behavior, even if you're not really a criminal in jail, you learn criminal ways in order to survive. And so being a hard person in jail isn't really beneficial to them. I'm just trying to encourage them, listen, pay attention to it. This because you need this Speaker 2 (00:30:24): And Speaker 3 (00:30:24): You're in an environment where that is, if you're vulnerable, you are the prey and you can be taken over and taken out. But listen to it, trust it. There's stuff in there. Does Speaker 2 (00:30:34): That, y'all are listening. Does this idea of head, heart, and body types within Enneagram, you tend to have a primary one, but you have all those, obviously. I like how you talk about when we're in there, you talk about the soul. Is the interaction among the three really. Does that idea of being primarily ahead or a heart or a body type resonate with you? Does that sound like, oh yeah, I know exactly. I see some head nodding. Yeah. Fundamental differences between Speaker 3 (00:31:05): The, yes. So I said the head type is kind of the driving motivation or the driving emotion is fear. It's kind of a fear base. So a heart type, the driving motivation would be shame based guilt. So what gets you doing things? So when I'm fearful, I'm in my head and I'm afraid of something, that's when I start to plan and figure out how to solve, problem solve. My wife is a hard type and so she has a lot of guilt, so she doesn't try to, but if she wants to get you to do something or she needs to do something, guilt and shame kind of comes is the way that she will do it. And then body types, and this is the way that I grew up, was anger. So the body type is like when something is happening, anger, it's a catalyst that gets you going. For me, it was really disruptive and disruptive. And so that's where I said for me, I would avoid stuff because I didn't want to blow it up. And so those are the kind of differences. And again, we have all of that. Does that help? Does that make sense? Speaker 2 (00:32:10): Does one of those speak to you? I feel like I'm Speaker 3 (00:32:13): Going back to woods sometimes. Yeah, for sure. And that's what I think the integrated soul is when we can allow them to work together to communicate together. I don't think, to me anger, I couldn't sustain anger. Anger can be my catalyst. It gets me going, but I have to have other emotions to keep that thing going. And I have to have a plan that I'm working towards before. You know what I mean? Before I just get angry about something. It's like, okay, so what's you're playing? No, I'm just angry. Speaker 2 (00:32:45): It seems like Speaker 3 (00:32:47): I'm just angry. Speaker 2 (00:32:48): Just angry. Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:32:49): It's all, it's going be directed somewhere. That's right. That Speaker 2 (00:32:53): Person situation. Speaker 3 (00:32:57): You got to be aware of that before it comes off. Exactly, exactly. Speaker 2 (00:33:02): I often think about, I'm also really into the Enneagram, but we don't have to just talk about that sort of this idea of integrating the soul or becoming a well, just becoming the person that we are becoming. I have two children who are a little bit bigger, somewhere in the middle of your people, and I'm so fascinated to watch them start to become who they're going to be. Some of that's already there, obviously they're 10 and seven. So there's definitely some pretty strong personality action happening. And I'm really excited to see as sad as I am to watch them grow up. I'm excited to see them become these adults, the thoughts and feelings and plans. And from this particular idea of heart, head, and body, to me, it almost feels like they're all kind of converging. The goal is that those three converge within us and we really experience all three fully. Speaker 2 (00:34:01): And if it's not too far a metaphor, I really appreciate Nathaniel, when you were telling me about the river journeys that the artist and his father were on two different directions on the river and never, the timing was different. When Saab, I always say his name wrong, Saab, sorry. When he was beginning his artistic journey on the river, his father was already gone. He was on the le, it's called the levee of course, but he was on the dry land as opposed to on the boat. His father couldn't get off the boat. There's these sort of going back to that earlier stuff, this distance, this separation and time and space, but also a sort of converging in the work that he's doing is sort of this converging of their stories, of which I find really beautiful. And my hope is that that's what we do with our lives. I mean our inner lives personally, but between people that we begin to converge, even if it's just for a moment we're converging. The three of us are with y'all today. Just a little bit, just slowly reverse. I don't know. I just think that's cool. Speaker 3 (00:35:20): Do you think integration is possible with people versus desegregation? I think diversity and even what you were saying in terms of convergence, we segregate and get each other's place. Speaker 2 (00:35:31): Yes. Speaker 3 (00:35:33): That experiment of integration, when I look at the photos for color, people only experiment of integration didn't work, Speaker 2 (00:35:41): Right? Speaker 3 (00:35:41): And so as you were saying, because that's one of my longings, is it possible to have that kind of deep connection? Can we really integrate? Speaker 2 (00:35:48): I don't know. Yeah, you want to respond to that. Speaker 7 (00:35:54): Everybody needs the same thing. Cultural differences and stuff, all that stuff goes away when everybody's trying to live. We all want food, water, shelter, we want those. And desegregation, which is integrion, there's no segregation when we're all trying to live under the same familiar. I know enough to get myself in trouble what's called that number? And it's basically says that you're only supposed to know 150 people. Speaker 2 (00:36:32): Oh, sure. Speaker 7 (00:36:34): So I've always been intrigued by the thought that these concepts, this group hates each other because they're different and that's over there and we're over here and we're afraid. And so we decided on a lizard brand sort of level that's going to be the fear that keeps us safe. And maybe people who become friends because they're both just trying to not die together. And so when you say, can we integrate and desegregate, I think the answer is yes, but not on mass. Speaker 2 (00:37:20): Sure. Yeah. I think that's fair. Yeah, I think that's fair. Maybe it's man, now we get into web theory and stuff where it is all integrated, but this may not be integrated with this separate, yeah, yeah. It strikes me in the example of particularly with integrating schools, it didn't work the way we wanted it to work for sure, if at all. Speaker 7 (00:37:47): And Speaker 2 (00:37:48): Some of that may be that it was not necessarily, it was not mutual, it was not something, if I'm working on integrating with you, hopefully you were also working on integrating with me and that we can come together. But if one group is like, we need to be, let's be friends, or whatever you want to say. And the other group's like if we have to, you're not going to have integration. And even if we don't want to use that word that has a specific cultural context in America, which I'm fine using for that, but I was using it in a more broad term connection, deeper, fully connected relationship maybe would be a better way to say it. It requires two people or one person doesn't work. It has to have, whoever's involved in it have to be involved, has to be. But it also has to be intentional. I want this. You know what I mean? If I don't want it, it's not going to happen. Speaker 5 (00:38:50): But I'm just, when you're having that conversation, I'm looking at that picture and I'm like, there was no effort. That's not an effort. Of which one? The women holding hands. It's just like it. It's just, Speaker 2 (00:39:10): No, I'm with you. Because I look at that photo and I see five different things. It is beautiful, but we actually, we don't see their faces, which is interesting. The facial expression could tell you a lot about the relationship between those two people. Very tender photo, isn't it? Very Speaker 5 (00:39:29): Tender. But you don't know who's helping, who is helping who. You can make an assumption an all white, but that could be somebody visiting an elderly nun or it could be a caretaker taking somebody for a walk. I mean, you don't know how that is, but it seems like there, there's tenderness there. There's something mutual. Speaker 2 (00:39:53): Yeah, yeah. No, I completely agree. And I guess part of my question is there is tenderness in so many places. There's tenderness when we're miserable, when we're fighting each other, it hurts. It's painful. It's not necessarily a tenderness that is beautiful to see, if that makes sense. It's like a bruise. Speaker 6 (00:40:14): I think that's so key to this body of work is the other side of tenderness, both sides of Speaker 2 (00:40:19): Tenderness, Speaker 6 (00:40:20): The beauty, the connection, the gentleness, but also tenderness Speaker 5 (00:40:23): Is painful. Speaker 2 (00:40:24): It Speaker 5 (00:40:24): Is Speaker 6 (00:40:24): Vulnerability and it hurts. And to me, that picture Speaker 5 (00:40:29): In the context of the Speaker 6 (00:40:30): American south is also about that. It's about a connection and independence, but also a history of pain. That's also that Speaker 2 (00:40:40): Picture. Yeah. Yeah. Just let that settle for a second. I hope it doesn't come across that I'm saying that your interpretation is wrong. Because I think everyone receives all kinds of interesting things from all art, and particularly from photographs that it's almost like, well, this is telling me something obvious. It's a picture, right? Like, oh, is it? And that's a good, my boss. Literally you'll say, well, it's like this. And she'll say, is it, Speaker 5 (00:41:15): It's more one way to view it. Speaker 2 (00:41:17): Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which it just cracks me. Is it? Yes. No, there's always more. But I think that's a really helpful question is whether it's art that we're looking at or a relationship that we're part of to notice the assumptions that we have about that relationship and go, oh, is that real? Is that what our relationship is? Maybe. Speaker 4 (00:41:44): Maybe. Speaker 2 (00:41:45): Maybe it's also some other stuff. Good to see it. To see it clearly. Can I close a question? Yeah, please. Speaker 3 (00:41:54): You play a role in your own faith community or your job or your other job as you, Speaker 2 (00:42:03): When people come to you and say, Speaker 3 (00:42:04): I'm in pain, Speaker 2 (00:42:05): What can you Speaker 3 (00:42:06): Say to them? Speaker 2 (00:42:07): What Speaker 3 (00:42:08): Do you say to them? Speaker 2 (00:42:09): Yeah. Speaker 4 (00:42:09): And they say they're in pain. Speaker 3 (00:42:10): Yeah, I'm in pain. I'm looking for Speaker 2 (00:42:13): Help. Speaker 4 (00:42:14): I listen to them. What's the reason why they're paying? Try to give whatever advice I can give because I'm a religious counsel of the Hindu society. A lot of time, most of the pains that are associated with somebody die. Some close relative or child or parents or other student kind of thought. Something is inevitable. You have to be prepared for it. I try to listen to them more than than not. I get the feeling they just want someone to listen more to them. Speaker 2 (00:42:48): Maybe that goes Speaker 4 (00:42:49): Like that child. One of my colleague's son is not Hindu, he's Jewish. His son and ninth grade son, I knew him as child. No know what happened. He just shot himself. That's a beautiful family. His wife, he works as a scientist in p and g. His wife is a physician and he used his own gun. I just listened to him. I really, nothing to say sad. I attended the funeral, everything. And he talked about how this kid was so good and he didn't have any problem really. And so just listening, just holding him. Speaker 2 (00:43:36): Did you just Speaker 3 (00:43:37): Say holding him? Just Speaker 2 (00:43:38): Me holding him. Did you just say? Speaker 3 (00:43:39): Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:43:40): That's interesting. Speaker 4 (00:43:41): Hugging him Speaker 2 (00:43:42): Literal, but also figurative. Speaker 3 (00:43:45): You're holding him by this now, Speaker 2 (00:43:47): Holding space for him. Yeah. Speaker 4 (00:43:48): More of empathizing rather than advice. Izing the pain of the person. It depends on the situation. In that situation, I could not do anything else. It definitely depends on the situation too. Exactly. Context. Yeah. Listening I think is key. Speaker 3 (00:44:08): I think Speaker 4 (00:44:09): We just had a death. Speaker 3 (00:44:11): It's Speaker 4 (00:44:12): Kind of been a Speaker 3 (00:44:12): Shock, but it's been a shockwave through Speaker 4 (00:44:16): My community Speaker 3 (00:44:19): And Speaker 4 (00:44:20): The way that people responded Speaker 3 (00:44:21): To the news. Speaker 4 (00:44:25): I'll cry, but I don't just break down the way that people, when they heard the news Speaker 3 (00:44:30): And because I'm trying to integrate the three parts of myself, I'm like, why am I not responding this way? Why am I not feeling I feel for this person? And it was like, because I ignore pain. So it's hard for me to empathize with people in pain to feel what they're feeling. My wife wants you to feel it. She's like, I feel it. And I'm like, I understand it. I don't feel it though. And in that I'm like, well, help me understand. So for the family, I'm like, what you're feeling as I understand pain of this type is that you're grieving and there's time and there are things we can meet, whatever, whatever. But you're just looking for closure at some point. You're trying to, so we're telling all these stories and we're trying to, I mean you see people going through the stages of grief and it's like you're just looking for closure. Speaker 3 (00:45:22): Take your time. Just take your time. And we can talk about where you feel the pain and what it feels like and help them to put words to what they're actually feeling. But for me, it is listening. It's just truly being present to that pain, not trying to make it. I can't connect with certain experiences that people have had. I can't make that connection. I do care, but I can't bring it into a world. I haven't had that experience and therefore I can't relate. So for me, how can I just be present for you and with you, truly be in the room with you, not for the job. And that's where I think I went to. It was like, let go into the work mode instead of allowing myself to feel like the rest of the community, other folks could feel in my job. It's like, no, you can't lose it. You may be the only one to hold it together. Does that make sense? So pain is like, it's my job in a sense, and I'm trying to get away from that and really be, let's just B and c. See what that feels like together. Speaker 2 (00:46:27): I think my first reaction when people say they're in pain is to try to figure out how to fix it. And so then I'm learning in my advanced years of 42 to take a step back from that and realize I can't fix it. I can't even fix myself. It's not fixable, but that's my natural reaction. My immediate is, okay, alright, so what do we need? Okay, who can I connect you with? How can we make this go away? That's it. Speaker 3 (00:46:58): Make it go away. Speaker 2 (00:46:59): I'll make it go away. But most things don't go away. It doesn't work like that. So then what I try to come out with is exactly, I think what you're saying ti is there's a lot of listening. Tell me about your pain, tell me about it, what's going on? Help me understand it. And obviously clarifying questions and that kind of thing. But to validate the experience of pain. One of the things I've said sometimes, and sometimes people, I guess it depends on the person. Some people hear this and it really speaks to them. Some people are like, yeah, I know. I'll often say, you're allowed to feel sad about this. You're allowed to be grieving, you're allowed to be angry, whatever the thing is. Some of that may come from my sense, I won't give you my whole life story, but somehow I learned growing up that I wasn't allowed to be angry. I really don't know where that came from because I can yell at my parents if I want to. It's very unclear to me, but I got this sort of internal sense that anger is not appropriate one, so one just speaks slower. And do you relate possibly more intentionally, but one is not angry. And then other people go, why are you so angry? And I go, I'm not angry anyway. I have some pain too. Let it out. Who knew? Speaker 2 (00:48:39): I think you were talking about empathy. I mean a lot of empathy is, I'm not sure I can really clearly articulate maybe somebody else can. The difference between compassion and empathy. I know there's a difference, but I'm not sure that I can tell what the difference is. Neither one of 'em is, well, at least you didn't have this other horrible thing happen. Or it could be worse. That's more like sympathy and it's not even very sympathetic. Empathy is, oh, I feel that. And it doesn't have to be verbal is maybe the difference. Letting that person know maybe you know where they're coming from. Maybe it's hard though because sometimes we don't know where they're coming from. Do you know what I mean? That's, I'm good. Yeah. There was a conference we were at recently and we were talking about race specifically in America, and there was a white woman in our group who was from Australia. Speaker 2 (00:49:40): And when we got into our small groups, she immediately turned to the one black woman in the group and said, I so identify with African-Americans now after learning this stuff. I so identify with it because I'm an Australian and everyone looks down on us because we used to be convicts. And I was like, oh, I'm really struggling with this. And I couldn't figure out how to articulate it in the moment. But the issue is I'm so glad. I'm so glad that she identified and that she had a sense of the pain, that the sense of other people's suffering is so important, but she doesn't actually understand this other woman's pain. She has not experienced that. And there's a difference. You know what I mean? So experiencing someone's pain is not the same as having experienced it yourself. See, it's hard, right? Because the language around this is Speaker 8 (00:50:35): So hard. Speaker 3 (00:50:36): Yeah, you can appreciate it. You can relate to it, but you don't really understand it. You haven't had experience. Speaker 2 (00:50:40): Yeah, maybe. So I'm not sure if saying it out loud is the thing or not. I don't know. For me, the difference between empathy and compassion, at least from my perspective, is that empathy feels like you have stepped into Speaker 3 (00:50:53): That person's body Speaker 2 (00:50:55): And you're experiencing it directly. Whereas compassion, you feel like you're still in your own body and kind of experiencing it as you. But that's sort of, and I guess maybe you have to have had enough shared experiences to be able to truly kind of step in that spot. But that's what it feels like for me when I feel like empathy and it is like, oh, it hurts me in a direct way, not from a separate point of view. So you were talking about empathy specifically. How does Speaker 8 (00:51:26): It feel? Say maybe I should retract the empathy? A lot of, I do workshops and volunteering community work, and they are for people that have experienced things that I have never experienced, but there's something there that I want to help them. Speaker 3 (00:51:50): And Speaker 8 (00:51:50): I guess to me, we all experience grief in different ways, but grief is still grief regardless of the circumstance that we experience it from. I just feel like that's one way that we all might be connected is just for all basic emotion regardless of how we get to that emotion. It still felt the same. And so I think maybe compassion is a more appropriate word. Empathy. Speaker 3 (00:52:26): I think there's something else about pain that not all pain is negative or bad. Speaker 2 (00:52:31): Say more about that. Speaker 3 (00:52:33): Well, it depends on what your, it depends on what, so childbirth the goal for it seems like it would be painful. That's what I've heard. Speaker 2 (00:52:44): Yes. Speaker 3 (00:52:46): I would never have the experience, but I hear the joy of the life after that. I think about what I can relate to is working out. You go in the gym and you're basically ripping and shredding and putting your body through pain in order for it to grow stronger. I think we do that when we're reading and we're challenging ourselves around ideas. So there's pain. I don't think all pain is bad and I'm not in the pain of saying all pain is redeemable either. But I think that even if someone, in the case of losing someone, I can't relate to the family that just lost this person in our community. The mother was broken up. She lost a son. My brother lost a son. He was my nephew. He's not my son. I don't know what that's like. There's nothing in my experience that I could ever say to say that. I get it. I understand, I relate, but I can be with you. And this what the proximity thing is. I'm just with you. I am not going to abandon you. And so if you got to blow something up, I'll be there with you. If you need to just cry, whatever it is, I'm just with you. To me, that's more when I'm experiencing pain, that's what I'm trying to offer folks is like, we're just here with you. It's not for a job. We're with you and how messy it Speaker 4 (00:54:00): Is. Whatever that looks like, Speaker 3 (00:54:02): Whether you grow from it or not resists with you. Speaker 4 (00:54:06): It's very difficult to empathize pain. I agree with you. That's why my mom did not celebrate the joy of others. It's easy to celebrate because pain, what you have not been in, how can you and a joy if you've win something they can experience. I had joint. Yeah, it's hard. Speaker 2 (00:54:25): What does your faith tell you about pain? Excuse me? What does your faith tell you about Speaker 4 (00:54:30): Pain? Well, our faith tells to take pain and pleasure as same. Say again? You make it same. Speaker 3 (00:54:37): The same. Speaker 4 (00:54:37): Pleasure and pain. The same and pleasure as say, don't make pain control you. Speaker 2 (00:54:43): You control the pain. Interesting. Speaker 4 (00:54:46): They're not saying you make it safe. Ah, Speaker 3 (00:54:48): You're not good or Speaker 4 (00:54:48): Bad. Yeah, like that. All the duality take away the duality. Go beyond the duality. Good, bad, dark, light. That's Speaker 3 (00:54:58): What you're saying, Speaker 4 (00:54:58): Tree defeat, that kind of thing. All the realities go beyond them. The whole world is made of reality. The total reality world doesn't run, but you go Speaker 3 (00:55:11): Beyond. Speaker 4 (00:55:14): Go past the reality. It only make you suffer more. The pain is something that has already happened. That's exactly where my mom's advice of joyful participation in the sorrows of life. Why suffer twice something has happened, which is beyond your control. Speaker 2 (00:55:37): I don't know that I feel very in control of my suffering more than once. I feel like I do suffer multiple times Speaker 4 (00:55:44): And Speaker 2 (00:55:44): I have a hard time stopping myself from suffering Speaker 4 (00:55:46): Multiple. I know it's hard. I just told what my fight Speaker 2 (00:55:48): Does. Oh, the question. Fair point. Oh, it's easy for everyone. Yeah, no, that's good. I will often say to my students noting, Speaker 4 (00:56:06): But I could see my mom was going through pain very easily. Speaker 2 (00:56:09): But Speaker 4 (00:56:09): For my dad, even the good things are causing pain. Oh, it may go bad. Speaker 2 (00:56:13): Oh, even the good ones are causing pain. Speaker 4 (00:56:15): Right? The nature. Speaker 2 (00:56:18): I often say to my students, it's neither good nor bad. It simply is. Speaker 3 (00:56:22): Yeah. Speaker 4 (00:56:23): Right. Speaker 2 (00:56:24): I don't say it about everything, but I do say it about a lot of things. A lot. Everything. And to the point that sometimes I will say something and they'll say, Alice, it's neither good nor bad. Speaker 4 (00:56:34): Simply think if it would have been worse. Speaker 2 (00:56:36): Right? But it's not meant to be right. It's not meant to be. Well, it could have been worse. It's more drawing attention to the fact that we label things as good or bad. Speaker 4 (00:56:46): Exactly. Speaker 2 (00:56:47): It feels good. So it must be good. Well, there's lots of things that feel good that are not good for us or this feels bad. So it must be morally wrong. Well, no, sometimes we have to do something uncomfortable in order to get us into any beautiful space. So grief is neither good nor bad. It just is. It just exists. Speaker 4 (00:57:12): I can give you an example. I was drawn into litigation by real estate partners, even though I told them not to go to court event. So I had to go through deposit depositions. I selled about $40,000 out of my pocket for nothing. Speaker 2 (00:57:28): $300 Speaker 4 (00:57:29): An hour for the attorney. The deposition was in downtown court, in Deloitte's office. It was very close to another. I allow that tacos in. So in lunch I would go and enjoy the sangria and my counselor said, you're not supposed to drink. I said, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. So to do just enjoy it. You're there just across the fountain square, but maybe two other people who are also in litigation, they're getting food from a bay and eating, just sitting in the hallway. Speaker 2 (00:58:09): That's Speaker 4 (00:58:09): Their life. So that's the way I try to make it as easy as possible for myself. Something which is under my control. I try to. Right. Speaker 2 (00:58:23): So I have one final question for us and y'all perhaps. So at the beginning I asked you what you're longing for. Now I'm interested in what you're hoping for and that settled for a second. What are you hoping for? What's kind of coming that you want? And you can answer that one. Or if you would rather answer what is the basis of your hope? Why would you hope at all if there is so much pain? If we are so separate in a lot of ways, what does hope do for you? Speaker 4 (00:59:02): Hope is essential for life. Speaker 2 (00:59:05): Why? Speaker 4 (00:59:07): Well, that's why we call it hopeless. We don't have hope. There's always, we are seeing things get better. Things also get worse. My hope is that people don't go around creating problem. Some things happen, bad things happen. They have no control. Tsunami happens, earthquake happens. These things. We have no control, don't go creating problem a lot of time have the problem in the world are created by us. Either they were thoughts or works or deeds Speaker 2 (00:59:41): Taking offense. Yeah, all them. Speaker 4 (00:59:42): Yeah. Make a difference. Sure. Speaker 2 (00:59:45): We don't have to wait for Daniel to answer. He's a very thinky person. If anyone else has a thought, we Speaker 4 (00:59:52): Have to put this kind of a meeting. 20 years ago, could they have put no, no. See how the communication, how Speaker 2 (00:59:59): Great it Speaker 4 (00:59:59): Has become. We could communicate time. There's a lot of good things happening. Speaker 2 (01:00:06): This conversation maybe you could say is something that someone hoped for. I mean, you certainly have hoped for this Speaker 4 (01:00:13): Particular conversation, Speaker 2 (01:00:16): But yeah, 20, 50 years ago, somebody might've hoped for this kind of conversation. Speaker 4 (01:00:19): People, general people, like I had a Japanese boss in Philis Petroleum company in 1985. He told me, if I was United Nations, only thing I would do is connect the world by trying that people travel. Not this Ivy League wearing three piece suit and carrying, telling only political right things and kind of let ordinary people go and trump Speaker 4 (01:00:46): Regular people train is the best way to go wrong. When you go and see people in real life, real meat changes the world. That too nice. The world much better than just some top officials. And that's what here, I thought it was a good idea. I travel with train and I always take time that say, even when driving, I go around, see people, see people. Yeah. That's the best way. When people come together. I was in Weimar in 1987 in a meeting in East Germany and they were telling that it was actually very bad. Eastern West were totally different situations, but still they were hopeful. They said, Speaker 2 (01:01:29): I Speaker 4 (01:01:30): Think we are hoping p go. They said 87, 80, 89. Oh, it was 89 came off right? 89 or 19, within two years, wall came off. So there, I couldn't believe them the way the border was, especially that was the toughest of the border. Other parts of Eastern Europe, or not the vigilant here. It was very tough. I saw Russian army trucks everywhere in Speaker 2 (01:01:54): White Speaker 4 (01:01:55): And they said that they were hopeful. They said that Speaker 2 (01:01:57): It would change. Yeah, it Speaker 4 (01:01:59): Happened. Speaker 2 (01:01:59): And it did. It Speaker 4 (01:02:00): Did. Speaker 2 (01:02:00): Yeah. I saw, Speaker 4 (01:02:01): I was at the wall before it came up and I was at the wall after it came on. Speaker 2 (01:02:05): Yeah. Speaker 4 (01:02:06): So things can happen. Did you Speaker 7 (01:02:08): Have a, I forget who said it, I can only paraphrase the word, but it was basically, travel is the best cure for, what was it? Ignorance. Speaker 2 (01:02:20): Yeah. It sounds like Rick Steves could be, I dunno if he said it, but he would say something like that. Everything. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Speaker 3 (01:02:31): His favorite magazine, if voting mattered, they would've let us to it. Speaker 2 (01:02:35): Yes. If voting mattered, they wouldn't rest it. That's right. That's good. Do you guys watch The Good Place? Anybody? Okay. Well I will not spoil anything for you. It's very good. You should watch it. But I really appreciate a line that a character said recently that was something along the lines of, it's not that human beings are good or bad. It's that tomorrow they can try to do something different. It's not that we do do something different tomorrow, it's that we can do something different. And to me it was, is so goofy I feel like I've been quoting TV shows recently as though they're great theologians and now I'm like, well, maybe they are, because I was quoting The Crown the other day too that really spoke to me. It was like, right for me, hope is not that there's some perfect endpoint that somebody has written down on a golden tablet, but that there is always possibility. There's always possibility for something better, and it's one of the reasons I really appreciate 12 Step programs so much is that it's this one day at a time like, man, today was crap, but I have tomorrow. For me, that's the basis of hope is a possibility. What I am. Yeah, Speaker 3 (01:03:49): That's kind of my definition of faith is I think things can be otherwise. That's what faith is for me. It can be otherwise. Speaker 1 (01:04:02): Thank you for listening to Art Palace. We hope you'll be inspired to come visit the Cincinnati Art Museum and have conversations about the art yourself. General admission to the museum is always free, and we also offer free parking. Special exhibitions include the Levy, a photographer in the American South, women breaking boundaries and treasures of the Spanish world. You can join us for another free conversation on the levee called Southern Exposures on Friday, December 13th at 3:00 PM featuring special guest Miranda Lash, curator of contemporary art at the Speed Art Museum in Louisville, Kentucky. For program reservations and more information, visit Cincinnati art museum.org. You can follow the museum on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, and also join our Art Palace Facebook group. Our theme song is Aran Musico by Blau, and as always, please rate and review us to help others find the show. I'm Russell, and this has been Art Palace, produced by the Cincinnati Art Museum.